Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd December 2019

Post by **refitman** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 8:50 am

Morning all.

Post by **adam** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 9:16 am

Telegraph - Boris Johnson insists there will be 'no alignment' with the EU after Brexit (paywalled, but you only really need the opening...)

Boris Johnson insisted that Britain would not follow any EU rules after Brexit as he set up a showdown with Brussels over a trade deal.
The Prime Minister made clear that he would pursue a hard Brexit by saying there would be “no alignment” between the two sides, defying the EU’s claim that it was a “must” for any future relationship.

So we are planning for a very very basic FTA on some minimally or even unregulated goods, and nothing else, nothing on services (81% of the UK economy in 2018) , on nuclear materials, on medicines and chemicals, on engineering, on anything agricultural or food related...

It's an interesting plan.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 10:07 am

Adam -- sounds CRAZY !

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 10:14 am

They're so confident that they can control the narrative, but surely that won't be possible. France and the Netherlands have spent millions, probably hundreds of millions, preparing their ports and we've done nothing except hand out contracts for non-existent ferries and practice putting out cones on the motorway to Dover. It will be a complete shitshow and people will notice.

Jon
@jongibson335
Replying to
@shaunjlawson
One thing I've noticed is that people who were saying a soft Brexit with Corbyn would prevent him carrying out his domestic policies because of the squeeze on the economy, seem to think Johnson is unmovable 10 years, regardless of the fact he's persuing a hard Brexit

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 10:29 am

Good one too from AFinch last night !

"Good evening everyone.

This is Paul Mason on what was happening at "the top" of Labour and its relevance to the election result. Also on what next.

Some really indefensible "tactics" if he's right. Unfortunately I am inclined to believe him. "

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... arian-left" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
--------------------------------------
I’d seen a bit of the enthusiastic Chris Williamson, but am still a little doubtful about the AS stuff . However, directing one's enthusiasm towards injustice nicely far away doesn't solve problems at home ! …

The rest is very well worth a look, and I too find the reporting of LP HQ being an unhappy place very believable .

Christmas chores now !

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 10:44 am

Or

Christopher Wratil
@chriswratil
Replying to
@APHClarkson
Instead of dying in a ditch, he asked for an extension, instead of ditching the backstop, he got a frontstop. So instead of alignment, he will... ?

Alexander Clarkson
@APHClarkson
Replying to
@chriswratil
"We will develop our own British rules by looking to the best global standards" aka pretend they're not EU rules

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 10:48 am

Morning all.

Nothing says "We're taking back control and are confident about Britain's future" like shoving out this on a Friday night just before Christmas...

UK approves takeover of Cobham defence firm by US company

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... us-company

A merger between the Dorset-based manufacturer and US firm Advent was agreed to in July, however the acquisition was delayed so that the government could address national security concerns raised by the takeover.

The government officially signed off on the merger on Friday night, after Advent proposed a number of legal undertakings aimed at mitigating any potential national security concerns.

These include the ongoing protection of sensitive government information and requiring prior notice to the Ministry of Defence and Home Office on any future plans to sell the Cobham business.

Still, I'm sure everything will be fine...

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 10:50 am

Mason is not exactly an unbiased observer, but I have little reason to disbelieve everything that he claims. In particular, claims that the LOTO's office left something to be desired was one of the few constants of Corbyn's leadership.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 12:16 pm

Re Willow's post about Labour MP's voting for

Given without prejudice

https://www.tobyperkins.org.uk/2019/12/ ... ment-bill/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 12:56 pm

Not convinced tbh, not least because that come 2024 few will care how Labour MPs voted in December 2019.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 1:30 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Not convinced tbh, not least because that come 2024 few will care how Labour MPs voted in December 2019.

That date may be a likely one but it could change. How those Labour MPs voted may be important for them. Nothing is certain except voting Tory is a mistake.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 1:30 pm

Good afternoon, everyone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 1:41 pm

@AnatolyKasparov
You're likely right, of course.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 1:45 pm

Any Labour MP who chose to reject May's deal has no business failing to oppose this much worse deal. I simply can't see it any other way.

Very much making the point of Corbyn staying on rather than leaving and creating a vacuum within which such muddled and useless thinking could take hold, as happened after Ed left in 2015.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 1:48 pm

the Leader of the Opposition Office, known by the acronym LOTO

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 1:49 pm

god damn acronyms

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 1:56 pm

Willow904 wrote:Any Labour MP who chose to reject May's deal has no business failing to oppose this much worse deal. I simply can't see it any other way.

Very much making the point of Corbyn staying on rather than leaving and creating a vacuum within which such muddled and useless thinking could take hold, as happened after Ed left in 2015.

If there's no credible strategy behind abstaining to vote for or against or if that strategy is damaging at this point, you're right. I try finding positive meaning behind action, especially when I don't understand exactly how the process works. It doesn't look as though I'm going to find any with current Labour strategy.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 2:30 pm

A hated figure for Kendall associations among the left Given he was elected as the only Labour take from LD and still there in contrast to surrounding areas,I personally wouldn't dismiss so lightly.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 2:31 pm

A week is a long time in politics but so is the memory.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 2:33 pm

I don't dismiss him for any of that, I just don't think how Labour MPs voted yesterday will count for doodley-squat in the longer run.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 2:40 pm

Fair enough

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 3:19 pm

Whilst we are at it, I have always quite liked Liz Kendall and think her 2015 campaign - even if wrong headed in many ways - had more integrity than certain others.

(there weren't quite a lot of 1Corbyn/2Kendall ballot papers - or indeed a non-negligible number saying the opposite - for nothing)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 3:29 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Any Labour MP who chose to reject May's deal has no business failing to oppose this much worse deal. I simply can't see it any other way.

Very much making the point of Corbyn staying on rather than leaving and creating a vacuum within which such muddled and useless thinking could take hold, as happened after Ed left in 2015.
If there's no credible strategy behind abstaining to vote for or against or if that strategy is damaging at this point, you're right. I try finding positive meaning behind action, especially when I don't understand exactly how the process works. It doesn't look as though I'm going to find any with current Labour strategy.

Labour strategy - to oppose a bad WA - was fine. My frustration is with the Labour abstainers, and a handful who voted for it. The voters who switched to vote Tory because they want a hard Brexit are well represented by a majority Tory government. Labour should be representing those people who voted for them - and therefore for a softer or no Brexit - not the voters who have abandoned them. Try to win those voters back, by all means, but on areas where they are more in tune with Labour values, not on Brexit where they are not. The next election will be about other things, some of which will have their seeds in this poor withdrawal bill which is why Labour are right to vigorously oppose it. If Labour voters can't see that, Labour MPs need to communicate better, not send out bat signals that the Tories were right all along by helping their bad policies through.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 3:31 pm

frog222 wrote:Good one too from AFinch last night !

"Good evening everyone.

This is Paul Mason on what was happening at "the top" of Labour and its relevance to the election result. Also on what next.

Some really indefensible "tactics" if he's right. Unfortunately I am inclined to believe him. "

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... arian-left" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
--------------------------------------
I’d seen a bit of the enthusiastic Chris Williamson, but am still a little doubtful about the AS stuff . However, directing one's enthusiasm towards injustice nicely far away doesn't solve problems at home ! …

The rest is very well worth a look, and I too find the reporting of LP HQ being an unhappy place very believable .

Christmas chores now !

I don't understand factions.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 3:39 pm

I'm the same,especially the" improper "

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 3:41 pm

The vulgar ones, now . . .

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 3:42 pm

"At it?"
" innocent face "

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 3:42 pm

Willow904 wrote:---
Labour strategy - to oppose a bad WA - was fine. My frustration is with the Labour abstainers, and a handful who voted for it. The voters who switched to vote Tory because they want a hard Brexit are well represented by a majority Tory government. Labour should be representing those people who voted for them - and therefore for a softer or no Brexit - not the voters who have abandoned them. Try to win those voters back, by all means, but on areas where they are more in tune with Labour values, not on Brexit where they are not. The next election will be about other things, some of which will have their seeds in this poor withdrawal bill which is why Labour are right to vigorously oppose it. If Labour voters can't see that, Labour MPs need to communicate better, not send out bat signals that the Tories were right all along by helping their bad policies through.

(cJA edit)
I don't have any idea what good they think they're doing.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 3:44 pm

I don't have any idea.Full stop-is that a double positive?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 5:54 pm

[youtube]g5Rjo_imHDE[/youtube]

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 10:47 pm

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 10:16 am

Good morning all, anything happening?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 11:16 am

Good morfternoon.

AFinch · Post by **AFinch** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 1:37 pm

Good afternoon.

This is George Monbiot who, as usual, has something interesting and useful say probably because he keeps away from sects / factions.

[youtube]6I_ZhGHxnHQ[/youtube]

Then again some might see him as faction of one, or try to.

I have thought for years now that what we are fighting for is not just some kind of effective left wing politics but for democracy itself.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 2:31 pm

Some interesting Graun perspectives on the result from not just him but Gary Younge and Andy Beckett in recent days (plus a few slightly more obscure names) Whilst differing in specifics, they all recognise that what happened in the Labour party *and the country* since 2015 is real and not going away.

On the other hand today's Observer has a dug up old fossil in Hattersley, a robot in human form (D Miliband) and topping it all a totally unhinged shrieking rant from Rawnsley.

Absolutely no question, it is a *much* worse paper.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 2:35 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ng-members" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 2:38 pm

I would remain sceptical of all such claims at this stage (the deadline for joining the party to vote in this hasn't elapsed yet, for one thing)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 4:22 pm

Not much Christmas cheer in this article, I'm afraid:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... e-it-away/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Boris Johnson made politics awful, then asked people to vote it away
Our investigations show how the Tories won big

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 4:37 pm

Truth in that, beyond question.

Especially its conclusion, certainly nearer to the truth than "Labour just needs to go back to 2006 and then election victories will fall into its lap".

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 8:15 pm

Willow904 wrote:Not much Christmas cheer in this article, I'm afraid:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... e-it-away/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Boris Johnson made politics awful, then asked people to vote it away
Our investigations show how the Tories won big

One of the most striking features of my conversations around the UK ahead of the general election was just how furious people are with this coverage of politics. ‘Childish’ was the most common word. ‘We just switch off’, one woman said.

...[P]eople complained that reporters did little to tell them what politicians were actually proposing to do for the country. Instead, they focussed on personalities, sniping and bickering. And this trend, to cover politics as though it is reality TV, rather than a negotiation about how we live together, is surely the most significant way that the media drives alienation and disengagement.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 8:16 pm

Electorate turnout this time was down from 2017. Does anyone have a good source for this GE's electorate demographic information?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 8:22 pm

A source,as whether to good or not ..

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... l-election" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 8:23 pm

Ditto

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/h ... vote-poll/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 8:26 pm

https://www.statista.com/topics/5646/uk ... tion-2019/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 8:32 pm

Now being reported that there was a big increase in postal votes at this GE compared with 2017. To some degree that might be expected in a December poll, but given that most postal voters are older people (and how they have tended to vote in recent years) it may be a partial explanation of things.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 8:38 pm

"To defeat disinformation, we must build political structures that connect people to the practical reality around them. We must nurture a verdant democracy that outgrows their cynicism."

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... e-it-away/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think this most important.
"Connecting people to practical reality around them"
People need trustworthy local groups in communities providing accurate information.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 8:38 pm

Easier said than done

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 10:21 pm

Come on then, a final burst to get us to a PTO......

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 10:49 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Come on then, a final burst to get us to a PTO......

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 22 Dec, 2019 10:49 pm

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA