Monday 30th December 2019 - Friday 3rd January 2020

Post by **refitman** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 9:27 am

Morning all.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 10:44 am

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 10:50 am

Question 1: how do we (humans) stop rewarding bad behavior?
Question 2: how do we disentangle decision-making power and opportunities for personal wealth?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 11:00 am

Or:
Question 1: Do I replace the Vermouth?
Question 2: What about the Lemoncello?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 11:00 am

Am happy either way.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 11:07 am

Good morfternoon.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 11:14 am

Morning all.

I see Nick Timothy's written his "Everything's rubbish and if only I were in charge things would be brill" article again.

It's time for Boris Johnson to take on Britain's cult of liberal technocrats

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... chnocrats/

Yet there is a deep cultural and intellectual bias across the top of British society. It is no conspiracy, but in the civil service, the media, business, courts, quangos and universities, there is a remarkable uniformity of opinion that has shaped our country and the decisions of our governments for the past few decades.

The media?

And he proposes almost in passing that we leave the ECHR...doesn't come up with any idea of how we do this without leaving the Council of Europe mind but hey, easy when you're a columnist...

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 2:53 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote: And he proposes almost in passing that we leave the ECHR...doesn't come up with any idea of how we do this without leaving the Council of Europe mind but hey, easy when you're a columnist...

Let's be like Belarus!

A winning slogan, surely?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 6:24 pm

Good evening, everyone.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 8:47 pm

There are probably people on here who know more about this chap and therefore whether it is worth reading but I'll leave it here anyway.

Taking responsibility

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AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 9:58 pm

He is an independent minded Labour leftie, and has some very pertinent insights there.

Quiet today innit, maybe its time to run a few days together again?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 10:05 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:There are probably people on here who know more about this chap and therefore whether it is worth reading but I'll leave it here anyway.

Taking responsibility

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Thanks. It needs at least a couple more reads - preferably when I'm firing on all two cylinders.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 10:09 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:There are probably people on here who know more about this chap and therefore whether it is worth reading but I'll leave it here anyway.

Taking responsibility

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I don't know the author's work and I've read it once quickly.
Tory voters and those not turning out voting Labour are responsible for a Tory government.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 10:13 pm

@RogerOThornhill
I hope you're feeling better.
I'll fix you a hot water, honey and brandy beverage.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 10:14 pm

@PorFavor
You take your gin neat, if memory serves.
Cheers.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 10:29 pm

out of an electorate total of 47,587,254
32,262,219 voters turned out

13,966,451 voted Tory

10,295,912 voted Labour

A December GE was chosen by a Tory government in order to keep electoral participation at a minimum.
It was a cynical, dishonourable GE that'll cost lives, resources and time.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 11:01 pm

Indeed I think this might be another one-weeker

...

Unless of course I decide to unleash my thinking

Post by **adam** » Mon 30 Dec, 2019 11:38 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Indeed I think this might be another one-weeker
...
Unless of course I decide to unleash my thinking

Limoncello can do that.

Thousands of children under 14 have been investigated by police for sexting

The thing is, the detailed advice to police and schools is (1) schools deal with it yourselves if you can and (2) police, if it reached you, deal with it without any kind of record if you can BUT (3) whilst we don't want to criminalise honest if naive youthful experimentation, there's only so far the law can turn a blind eye to these things, so if what's going on involves any of ... (with apologies for level of detail, but at some point the country has to have a sensible conversation about this) ... any kind of coercion at all, or the sharing of images with others, or anybody aged under 13, or anything more than straightforward nudity - which means there are greater concerns about images of sexual arousal or touching, or more than one person in an image - or repeated examples of producing and sharing images, and then the police become involved.

And that doesn't mean prosecutions and records but it does mean decision making. And to be honest I think that the 'higher concern' list probably covers the significant majority of these cases and I'm surprised there isn't more police involvement.

I think we should probably be slow to decriminialise what would in other circumstances be called 'child pornography' or what with adults would be called 'revenge porn' - we certainly shouldn't be teaching young people (and particularly young men) that sharing confidential images isn't a problem. And we certainly shouldn't be doing it without talking about it. I understand the headline but they've been investigated because in their youthful experimentation they've crossed some significant lines. They'd be investigated if they were selling dope - in fact they'd be investigated if they were using dope - without the newspapers making a fuss about it.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 31 Dec, 2019 10:31 am

This seems to be the talking point of the day.

The only way Labour can win is by ditching ‘Labourism’

I haven't read it yet but whenever I see someone talking about progressive coalitions my concern is that the evidence for the Lib Dems being progressive is a bit thin. No doubt the majority of their voters are, but their MPs?
Those figures for how the Commons would look under PR just look like another tory/LD coalition to me.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 31 Dec, 2019 11:02 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Indeed I think this might be another one-weeker

...

Unless of course I decide to unleash my thinking

Think you might be right TC.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 31 Dec, 2019 12:58 pm

"Labourism" is a highly slippery term, but at the same time you sort of know what people mean by it!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 31 Dec, 2019 1:07 pm

Good afternoon, everyone.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 31 Dec, 2019 1:19 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... five-years" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 31 Dec, 2019 6:03 pm

The Hindle has landed

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 31 Dec, 2019 6:10 pm

And, it would appear, taken off again.....

Post by **refitman** » Tue 31 Dec, 2019 9:32 pm

Hope everyone has a happy new year. Fingers crossed 2020 is a little less shitty.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 31 Dec, 2019 9:36 pm

Hopefully the next *decade* is a bit less crap than this one has been......

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 31 Dec, 2019 9:54 pm

Hope springs eternal . . .

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 12:08 am

Happy New Year folks. Staying with a friend in Calderdale and the fog is so thick the fireworks are mere smudges of colour in the sky.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 12:08 am

Happy New Year!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 12:16 am

All the best for 2020 to everyone on here

Post by **adam** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 12:47 am

"Too much pressure - it's got to stop it's got to stop"

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 12:48 am

Happy New Year and all that.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 9:37 am

Happy New Year to all at FTN and the other place.

To onlookers too, whoever and wherever you are.

Peace, happiness and prosperity.

Post by **adam** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 10:02 am

Shocked, etc...

Revealed: the millionaires hoarding UK fishing rights

More than a quarter of the United Kingdom’s fishing quota is in the hands of a tiny group of the country’s wealthiest families, an Unearthed investigation has found. Just five families on the Sunday Times Rich List hold or control 29% of the UK’s fishing quota.

The finding comes from a new Unearthed investigation that traced the owners of more than 95% of UK quota holdings – including, for the first time, those of Scotland, the UK’s biggest fishing nation. It reveals that more than two-thirds of the UK’s fishing quota is controlled by just 25 businesses – and more than half of those are linked to one of the biggest criminal overfishing scams ever to reach the British courts.

Meanwhile, in England nearly 80% of fishing quota is held by foreign owners or domestic Rich List families, and more than half of Northern Ireland’s quota is hoarded onto a single trawler.

It remains strangely emblematic of the whole process that we fighting for something - territorial rights - that we don't need, and sacrificing something - market access - that we desperately need. We export about 75% of what we catch and import about 66% of what we eat. I don't have a problem with more pollock and mackeral and less cod and haddock but it's one of those matters that has just remained publicly misexplained through the whole process.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 10:13 am

Happy New Year everyone. x

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 10:25 am

Interesting thread.

Marios Richards
@MariosRichards
Labour bled out votes *everywhere* - they just broadly failed to hold onto voters. It's the Conservatives whose vote gains and losses were dominated by demographics.

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Suggests that chasing after specific demographics is exactly the wrong thing for Labour to do.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 11:56 am

adam wrote:Shocked, etc...

Revealed: the millionaires hoarding UK fishing rights
More than a quarter of the United Kingdom’s fishing quota is in the hands of a tiny group of the country’s wealthiest families, an Unearthed investigation has found. Just five families on the Sunday Times Rich List hold or control 29% of the UK’s fishing quota.

The finding comes from a new Unearthed investigation that traced the owners of more than 95% of UK quota holdings – including, for the first time, those of Scotland, the UK’s biggest fishing nation. It reveals that more than two-thirds of the UK’s fishing quota is controlled by just 25 businesses – and more than half of those are linked to one of the biggest criminal overfishing scams ever to reach the British courts.

Meanwhile, in England nearly 80% of fishing quota is held by foreign owners or domestic Rich List families, and more than half of Northern Ireland’s quota is hoarded onto a single trawler.
It remains strangely emblematic of the whole process that we fighting for something - territorial rights - that we don't need, and sacrificing something - market access - that we desperately need. We export about 75% of what we catch and import about 66% of what we eat. I don't have a problem with more pollock and mackeral and less cod and haddock but it's one of those matters that has just remained publicly misexplained through the whole process.

BOOKMARKED !

""

The scandal came to light in 2005, when Scottish officials raided fish factories to uncover “serious and organised” schemes to systematically evade quota restrictions for mackerel and herring, using underground pipes, secret weighing machines, and extra conveyor belts to land 170,000 tonnes of over-quota fish over several years.

A multi-year police investigation followed, resulting in a series of court cases over 2011 and 2012 in which three fish factories and more than two dozen skippers were hit with fines and confiscation orders for “black landings” of undeclared fish.

Unearthed’s investigation found that of the 20 biggest holders of Scottish quota, 13 have directors, shareholders, or vessel partners who were convicted of sea fishing offences in the black fish scandal.

Among those prosecuted were four members of the Tait family – worth £115m according to the Rich List – whose Klondyke Fishing Company is the second-largest quota holder in Scotland.

""

Talk about the Untouchables !
I sometimes wonder if the tradable fishing quota system was invented by the bright sparks at Goldman Sachs

After all they did invent carbon credits , along with Enron !
https://climate.mit.edu/myth-carbon-pricing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 12:46 pm

HNY FTN

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 1:06 pm

Good morfternoon.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 6:05 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:HNY FTN

Hangover Not Yielding For ToNight?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 11:01 pm

YouGov poll of Labour members has Starmer as front runner for next leader - and they had a pretty good record with the 2015 and 2016 contests.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 02 Jan, 2020 12:19 am

Great - good bloke - but can he do it?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 02 Jan, 2020 10:40 am

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Steve Howell@FromSteveHowell
Sorry, much as I respect Keir and think he has a big role to play, electing as leader the man who drove Labour "quickly through the gears" to support a second referendum would be like a parody of how out of touch we are with the voters we need to win back.

Here we go again.

"The Tories won the election, they must have been right about austerity..."
"The Tories won the election, they must have been right about hard Brexit..."

Here's a thought, how about we elect a leader that actually thinks the Tories are wrong and is willing to say so repeatedly for the next 5 years.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 02 Jan, 2020 10:46 am

Hear hear.

I'd very much like Starmer to lead Labour, because he probably knows more about Brexit than anyone else in Parliament, and Brexit is the one thing the tories don't want to talk about. They probably think that works in their favour because the public don't want to hear about it either, but imo that won't last once the shit starts hitting the fan.

I hope he sticks to some very left-wing policies during his campaign because my biggest fear is of Blair endorsing him. #kissofdeath

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 02 Jan, 2020 10:55 am

There are arguments against Starmer, but the idea that in 2024 all voters will care about (even in the fabled "ex red wall" seats) will be what he did five years and more ago seems to be a pretty far fetched one. People will have moved on.

(it might be different if Labour were then actively campaigning on "REJOIN THE EU NOW!" but that isn't actually going to happen - though the LibDems might be daft enough)

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 02 Jan, 2020 11:11 am

In 5 years time Starmer and Corbyn's original position of close alignment outside the EU will be entirely vindicated and a majority objective.

I can't see that we're going to be rehashing whether or not moving to a second ref scuppered Labour's chances in 2019, which imo it didn't.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 02 Jan, 2020 11:53 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:There are arguments against Starmer, but the idea that in 2024 all voters will care about (even in the fabled "ex red wall" seats) will be what he did five years and more ago seems to be a pretty far fetched one. People will have moved on.

(it might be different if Labour were then actively campaigning on "REJOIN THE EU NOW!" but that isn't actually going to happen - though the LibDems might be daft enough)

Re-joining the single market would make more sense than re-joining the EU, though not really a vote winner I accept. Would probably be covered by "close alignment to the EU" as a general objective, which Labour needs to stick with, in opposition to a hard Tory Brexit.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 02 Jan, 2020 12:34 pm

Good afternoon, everyone.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Thu 02 Jan, 2020 1:06 pm