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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 6:38 am 
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Morning all.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 9:15 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... um-survive

Genuinely interested as to thoughts if they helped,hindered the chances of Labour being in government,or indeed made no difference.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 9:20 am 
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Does fervency,especially pinned to one person aid in the persuasion stakes or rather make less likely?


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 11:38 am 
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Good morfternoon.

Quote:
He says there have been 571 cases, and 17 reported fatalities.

Most cases of this new virus have been non-fatal, he says. But some cases have been fatal. (Politics Live, Guardian)


The NHS is safe in the hands of this genius.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 11:40 am 
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Good morning, everyone.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 12:21 pm 
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Quite long but very good - from Ian Dunt in politics.co.uk

Brexit 2020: Everything you need to know about Boris Johnson's trade deal nightmare

Quote:
Cool, so everything's sorted right? Brexit is getting done, everything's going back to normal and I never have to talk about trade again.

Oh yeah, no sorry. That's all a lie. We are about to enter the most perilous system-level recalibration of an advanced economy in trading history

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 12:31 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/23/labour-leadership-momentum-survive

Genuinely interested as to thoughts if they helped,hindered the chances of Labour being in government,or indeed made no difference.


Is the (blatantly clickbaity) article title an inverse of the QTWTAIN?


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 12:46 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/23/labour-leadership-momentum-survive

Genuinely interested as to thoughts if they helped,hindered the chances of Labour being in government,or indeed made no difference.


This bit leaped out:

Quote:
“But the National Coordinating Group isn’t working. There needs to be a place members can come together and plan at a variety of levels. New regional structures perhaps.”


Like the Labour Party has? More parallel echoing rather than integrated involvement? I'm not sure I see the point. Rather than duplicating Labour in a watered down, shadow party, perhaps it would be better just to participate in the actual Labour Party itself?

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 12:52 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/23/labour-leadership-momentum-survive

Genuinely interested as to thoughts if they helped,hindered the chances of Labour being in government,or indeed made no difference.


Well, despite the risk of getting slapped around the head from the house prefect ( not you HindleA ) - I'll respond..

I think hindered. If only that their enthusiasm may have given a false picture of how popular the leader and policies would be with the wider voting public.
And - this is only through discussions with friends and relatives of all ages. In my circle, the enthusiasm was not shared. I'd hoped I was in a minority - and though, for the first time in 32 years of voting - the pen nearly didn't touch the voting slip. I did vote - but that word again, no enthusiasm.

Over to you Prefect ;)


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 12:54 pm 
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You could say the same in an ideal world about other factional groups like Progress and Labour First, of course.

However, in the one we inhabit no major political party is not going to have various sub-groups (Tories and LibDems certainly do also)


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 12:56 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
Does fervency,especially pinned to one person aid in the persuasion stakes or rather make less likely?


Less.

I'm sure I'm unique - but I cringed more and more each time I heard the 'Oh, Jere...'


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 1:12 pm 
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Lost Soul wrote:
HindleA wrote:
Does fervency,especially pinned to one person aid in the persuasion stakes or rather make less likely?


Less.

I'm sure I'm unique - but I cringed more and more each time I heard the 'Oh, Jere...'


No. You're not unique.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 1:21 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
You could say the same in an ideal world about other factional groups like Progress and Labour First, of course.

However, in the one we inhabit no major political party is not going to have various sub-groups (Tories and LibDems certainly do also)


Is Momentum a sub-group, though? It feels more like a shadow party, piggy-backing on the original. I'm just not sure what the point is, really. It feels like a lot of duplicated time and effort that could be more productive put directly into the Labour Party itself.

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 2:17 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Lost Soul wrote:
HindleA wrote:
Does fervency,especially pinned to one person aid in the persuasion stakes or rather make less likely?


Less.

I'm sure I'm unique - but I cringed more and more each time I heard the 'Oh, Jere...'


No. You're not unique.

Glad I'm not unique either ! Severe cringing here too.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 2:40 pm 
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I don't like lionising any political leader, never have done. I've always said Labour is more than one leader.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 3:14 pm 
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Tory voter I know grew up after WW2, had the NHS, high-quality council housing, steady employment with good workplace conditions and made money in real estate due to house price inflation. It's impossible blaming ordinary individuals for the deregulated economic system allowing risky financial products and asset bubble creation however, no work of his created most the current value of those properties. He dislikes Cameron for his part in the 2016 EU referendum, doesn't like Brexit but he trusts Tories more than Labour. I don't think he understands the unsustainable trajectory of our economic and social systems. He's a nice person believing everyone can have the financial and social security he's had all his life.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 4:37 pm 
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Of course the counter is that it wasn't/isn't about one leader but what they supposedly represent.I say supposedly because of course I would argue it is both highly contestable before you get to the mythical reconstruction of the past and the "irony/?" of the its not about the personalitiesists obsession with personalities in cartoon like terms.Again as Nandy alluded to even this mythical past is not always what some of us would actually view as in any way particularly progressive


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 4:42 pm 
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I was never a prefect,largely because few people knew who I was.Though I was" put in charge" whilst being escorted by bus in Cyprus from home to school of a guy who had the habit of turning his eyelids inside out and generally causing ,shall we say unease with certain other habits.Beyond teaching him how to fart at random as one alternative I didn't really have any other effect.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 4:45 pm 
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Would genuinely like to hear the counter argument beyond possibly increasing numbers at a rally etc re momentum


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 4:46 pm 
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Participation/engagement to what end?


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 5:30 pm 
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Persuading people?

The point is that the right have the mass media basically on their side, and the left needs *something* to counter that.

If not an energised activist base on the ground, then what??


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 6:10 pm 
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But with the already mentioned queasiness among Labour members in the utilisation of this energy exactly how is that very persuasive and who are they trying to persuade beyond themselves?


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 6:14 pm 
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I don't know about Momentum. I'm not really sure what it does or how I would be in it.

On the Oh Jeremy Corbyn thing, my teenage son would chuckle at us and tell us it was quite evidently ironic.

It's worth remembering that among the under forties Labour are believed to have smashed the Tories.

We should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater....


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 6:18 pm 
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Fair enough-

"Oh Norris………


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 6:19 pm 
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;-)


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 6:20 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Persuading people?

The point is that the right have the mass media basically on their side, and the left needs *something* to counter that.

If not an energised activist base on the ground, then what??


In the area where I live there is no sign of that energised activist base on the ground. If anything, Corbyn's leadership has seen a decline in active members.

Perhaps the "Momentum effect" is patchy, rather than a national phenomenon?

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 6:28 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
Participation/engagement to what end?

Civic lessons
I think it'd be good having daily explainers
A couple examples
Labour party Members of Parliament (MPs) representing constituencies in the House doesn't necessarily mean Labour are government; usually the party with a majority or the greatest number of MPs (current total number of MPs is 650) forms government.
The last ten years have been Tory-led governments.
Local councils are funded by Westminster, not by elected Councillors.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 6:56 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Persuading people?

The point is that the right have the mass media basically on their side, and the left needs *something* to counter that.

If not an energised activist base on the ground, then what??
One of the last things I wanted to do was go out on a cold weekday evening but I'm glad I did. Local Labour party members organised a book discussion and signing about the dangers of financialisation. I'm glad I went. I guess there were about forty or so people there. The companionship of others was wonderful. I haven't read the book. I liked the company of other Labour party members. We're all different. We share Labour in common.

I'm concerned though. What brings us in contact with one another in a place where it's appropriate discussing politics? People have to work earning wages, raising children, cleaning house, caring for health... . The atomisation of communities is a real problem, I think.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 6:58 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
But with the already mentioned queasiness among Labour members in the utilisation of this energy exactly how is that very persuasive and who are they trying to persuade beyond themselves?
Interesting social events with a political focus but not necessarily contentious; something everyone can participate in. Bring baked goods and beverages.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 7:07 pm 
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Good evening

Please permit me to intervene in some of these discussions discarding Momentum. I was a Labour member when Blair took power in the party in Scotland and those heady days before the realisation of what 'Blairism' was became more apparent over the years.

The atmosphere started well but go more and more toxic as the constituency parties and members were treated like dirt and we left in droves. Nothing was permitted without top down control. You can see the affect it had on the membership of the party

Now though we have again a pretty vibrant membership and the numbers are holding up despite the abuse thrown at the members from the media and certain members of the PLP.

Of course it is not perfect but this appalling abuse we have seen thrown at Corbyn and the leadership that took us from 2015 and have actually increased the share of the vote despite the barrage of lies and misinformation is depressing to see.

I am actually relatively positive about the three candidates for leader left in - all have good points and bad points but seem ready to take the party forward. I just hope Starmer is his own man and is not going to fall into the trap of moving in the direction of Labour First and Progress - a longer existing and much more toxic influence on Labour than Momentum. Anything that has the appalling Luke Akehurst and his acolytes influencing things is bad news for me.

The media though has decided Long-Bailey is not acceptable and she has suffered some terrible abuse already, but of course this is allowed as she is a left winger. As we have seen with Meghan and Harry anyone rocking the boat is fair game. At least Jess Phillips is no longer in the reckoning although she seems to be marked for high office based on nothing more than she is anti-Corbyn, has an unconvincingly broad Brummie accent and is a good example of Dunning-Kruger (contrast the adulation she receives compared to the abuse of a high-achiever -yes I do mean that-like Diane Abbott)

I am happy to accept any of the 3 candidates as long as the principles behind 2017 and 2019 are maintained, and none have said that they are ready to jettison them. It will. I think, be Starmer vs Long-Bailey in the final reckoning and both of them would do me but she would be piled on by the media and certain parts of the PLP - and that behaviour would be accepted by all.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 7:16 pm 
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And yet Labour remain (‘scuse the ‘pun’) out of power.

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 7:21 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
I don't know about Momentum. I'm not really sure what it does or how I would be in it.

On the Oh Jeremy Corbyn thing, my teenage son would chuckle at us and tell us it was quite evidently ironic.

It's worth remembering that among the under forties Labour are believed to have smashed the Tories.

We should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater....
I wholeheartedly agree with you, Paul. I don't know much about Momentum. I suspected the chanting was ironic. I didn't know, I don't particular care. If they're not hurting anyone, I don't care. I'm a Labour party member. If Labour had an affiliated group with specific interests I'm also interested in, I might join it. However, I agree with the points made in Willow's posts. I don't like factions.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 7:22 pm 
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tinyclanger2 wrote:
And yet Labour remain (‘scuse the ‘pun’) out of power.

I know. It's in my civics lesson plans.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 7:25 pm 
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Absolutely messed up UK media. Vile. Tories get away with all manner of outlandishness then blame Labour when it's Tory government crashing nation and people.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 7:26 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Persuading people?

The point is that the right have the mass media basically on their side, and the left needs *something* to counter that.

If not an energised activist base on the ground, then what??


In the area where I live there is no sign of that energised activist base on the ground. If anything, Corbyn's leadership has seen a decline in active members.

Perhaps the "Momentum effect" is patchy, rather than a national phenomenon?


Yes, that is certainly the case.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 7:37 pm 
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tinyclanger2 wrote:
And yet Labour remain (‘scuse the ‘pun’) out of power.


as they were after 2010 and 2015 as well......and with poor membership numbers and morale

Looking at 2019 election with Brexit unresolved, it was unwindable whatever Labour did I think. It was what they really always wanted to avoid - a Brexit election.

I am not like many on the left who blame Starmer and McDonnell for tacking towards Remain - with hindsight it probably did more damage than good (in terms of results) but morally it was probably the right thing to do at that point.

Starmer as a leader is not a disaster at all, although he is not perfect either. If you actually listen to Long-Bailey rather than read it through the prism of the press she has some impressive qualities too and that (with Rayner) gives me hope. Nandy seems a little too immature but she takes the fight to the press

How would Labour have returned to power if Corbyn had not been elected leader in 2015 - which one of Burnham (soft Brexit supporter), Cooper (her of WPA and hardline immigration, also soft Brexit), Kendall (neoliberal) would have taken us further forward and given us a policy platform that may well turn out to be the right one to go for in the medium term - Climate Change and other big disruptors are coming.

For example, the broadband idea was bold and right - perhaps part of a too ambitious and unfocused communication strategy (trying to take eyes off Brexit I would guess) but still the right one - has the benefit of inner-city MP Phillips being against it, always a good indicator it was a good idea


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 7:43 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Persuading people?

The point is that the right have the mass media basically on their side, and the left needs *something* to counter that.

If not an energised activist base on the ground, then what??


In the area where I live there is no sign of that energised activist base on the ground. If anything, Corbyn's leadership has seen a decline in active members.

Perhaps the "Momentum effect" is patchy, rather than a national phenomenon?


Yes, that is certainly the case.


and not at all surprising either - what is the point being made here? I can also tell you that in the part of Scotland I lived there is no real Labour presence thanks to Murphy. Labour has never had a presence throughout the country

The election was about age and demographics. Labour killed the young vote much more strongly than even Blair did - it is those who seem to have no stake in the future that are keeping the Tories in power. Not sure what we can do about them until something falls off a cliff and even then they are happy to follow the misdirection of the press as they can pretend it isn't down to them voting Tory


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 8:06 pm 
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@how silly,thank you for your input.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 8:16 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
@how silly,thank you for your input.


thank you for saying so - not trying to cause disharmony just putting forward a (slightly) different point of view

The Corbyn era is being comprehensively traduced by the press and certain people on the right of the party and I find it as appalling as it was when it happened to Kinnock, Brown and Miliband.

Fortunately, the 3 candidates have avoided this in the main (not completely but I suppose that is only to be expected in an election).


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 9:06 pm 
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My point is that while the impact of Momentum has been significant in some places it's been pretty irrelevant in others. Labour needs to be relevant everywhere and so I'm doubtful about the usefulness of a shadow party within a party which has even less reach than the Labour Party proper, especially if the effort and enthusiasm put into Momentum is actually diverting energy and resources from other parts of the party, a doubling up effect that strikes me as somewhat inefficient. It may seem strange to view the existence of Momentum in logistical rather than ideological terms, but I can't help but see it that way and can't help but wonder if it could become more of a drain on resources and energy than a contributor if it continues to grow in the way proposed in the above quote.

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 9:15 pm 
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Labour should be looking for a win-win - have broader appeal. People are afraid and fear doesn’t help vis a vis being rational.

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 10:00 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
My point is that while the impact of Momentum has been significant in some places it's been pretty irrelevant in others. Labour needs to be relevant everywhere and so I'm doubtful about the usefulness of a shadow party within a party which has even less reach than the Labour Party proper, especially if the effort and enthusiasm put into Momentum is actually diverting energy and resources from other parts of the party, a doubling up effect that strikes me as somewhat inefficient. It may seem strange to view the existence of Momentum in logistical rather than ideological terms, but I can't help but see it that way and can't help but wonder if it could become more of a drain on resources and energy than a contributor if it continues to grow in the way proposed in the above quote.


it cannot be 'relevant' everywhere - that makes no sense. In fact it has lost relevance in places like Scotland under Miliband (and started much earlier). It has lost seats in the Northern Brexit areas because it moved towards Remain - which was supposed to have put us 20 points ahead in the polls. It has never been that strong in SW and other places.

You think the Tories are that concerned that they have no, or limited, representation amongst the more educated, younger and urban populations? They have a clear focus on their key voters and just ignore the rest. In 2019 the media helped them massively to cement this with lies and smears on a scale not seen in my lifetime. Johnson had one policy, just one! And he lied about that on an almost unbelievable scale with no challenge from the media

I do know what has sapped the energy out of the party has been the continuing undermining of the party by continuous accusation of anti-Semitism, the war on the left by the NEC under McNicol and things such as the Panorama documentary under the auspices of the JLM. That is what has drawn energy away.

Momentum have been key in the energisation of the youth vote and the base, including the 4 fold increase in membership. Where it hasn't reached is the older demographic of voters who have consistently moved to the right over the last 10 years - culminating in Brexit. I am interested to know how we are supposed to appeal to the young generation who have climate crisis, poverty, lack of housing, lack of opportunities on their mind whilst also pandering to the xenophobic, property owning generation who also voted for Brexit?

Labour has the policy framework that is actually honest about the priorities going forward - the Tories aren't.

As TC2 says people are scared and worried but each demographic is scared about different things. The older generation are scared about losing what they have and feel they are entitled too whilst the young are scared about whether they have a future.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 10:09 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 10:45 pm 
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No Question Time reviews for a while I'm afraid, maybe next month. I simply can't face sitting through that shit and trying to make it funny at the moment, I'd just end up getting angry and depressed. Once my urge to take the piss out of politics and laugh at it returns I'll start again but right now I'd much rather avoid it all as best I can and go for long walks, play computer games, read bad sci-fi novels and stick my head in the sand as far as it will go.


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 11:18 pm 
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I know what you mean.

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LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'


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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2020 11:29 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
You think the Tories are that concerned that they have no, or limited, representation amongst the more educated, younger and urban populations?


Yes, well at least some of them, I heard one Tory activist on the radio saying if he could see through the window that someone had a bookshelf with actual books on it he knew he was in for a hard time. For the Conservatives to have become a populist party whose main appeal is to people of low educational attainment and pensioners is disturbing to many of them. This is a party which has, as they see it, spent more than a century championing the elite, the idea of a meritocracy, while keeping a steady hand on the economic tiller. Now they're about to take chunks out of the economy and are endorsed by Britain First and Tommy Robinson. If you don't think this grotesque metamorphosis is causing concern amongst traditional Tories then you're not paying attention. Yes their scorched earth, win at all costs campaign may have won them the election, but will the cost of that ultimately be worth it?

I guess we'll see next time when 'get Brexit done' isn't a catchphrase tickling the fancy of morons.


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PostPosted: Fri 24 Jan, 2020 12:01 am 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
The media though has decided Long-Bailey is not acceptable and she has suffered some terrible abuse already, but of course this is allowed as she is a left winger.


Ok look, I don't want to be coming across as a confrontational dick but this is just nonsense. I've been a critic of Rebecca Long-Bailey not because of her political views (many of which I share) but because she's fucking hopeless. As an observer of politics from outside the Labour Party she is by a country mile the least able candidate in the leadership election. Every single appearance on TV, whether it be Newsnight or Question Time or just the bog standard news she is awful. Not a single thought of her own, just pre-prepared responses and ideological utterances, like someone cloned Corbyn's brain and installed it in a less appealing robot. All that would be needed to defeat her would be the Tories employing a young William Shatner to confuse her about love.


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PostPosted: Fri 24 Jan, 2020 12:11 am 
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tinyclanger2 wrote:
I know what you mean.


It's a fucking shitty time isn't it Tiny?

And in such times is it wise to kick against the pricks as it were or go off and do what you can in your own life?

I'm sure there's some poem that makes a similar point.


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PostPosted: Fri 24 Jan, 2020 1:27 am 
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I actually managed to wee myself last Sunday, woke up on the couch wondering what I was doing there then noticed a certain dampness of pants and the immediate surrounding area.

First time that's ever happened, I was horrified.

I tried spraying the couch with Tesco brand fabric freshener but it seemed to make everything feel damp and greasy so I took the covers off the cushions and washed them by hand while drying the cushions with a hot water bottle.

And now after much sniffing I'm typing from a dry couch that doesn't seem to smell of piss.

I know plenty of other people are incontinent but I've got no excuse.


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PostPosted: Fri 24 Jan, 2020 1:44 am 
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I wore those goth skinny jeans for so long despite the warnings they'd mess up my bladder.


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