Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 9:05 am
Morning all.
OopsPorFavor wrote:It's a new month! Well, Febraury is a new one on me, anyway . . .
The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels.
The Observer has learned that the Spanish government has insisted on reference to the Rock in the EU’s opening negotiating position, which will be published in draft form on Monday.
Boris Johnson will be presented with the choice of reaching agreement with the Spaniards about Gibraltar’s future or exposing its citizens to economic peril by pushing it outside any EU-UK trade deal. (Politics Live, Guardian)
And, lest we forget, Gilbraltar voted overwhelmingly to Remain.PorFavor wrote:The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels.
The Observer has learned that the Spanish government has insisted on reference to the Rock in the EU’s opening negotiating position, which will be published in draft form on Monday.
Boris Johnson will be presented with the choice of reaching agreement with the Spaniards about Gibraltar’s future or exposing its citizens to economic peril by pushing it outside any EU-UK trade deal. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Is it Gibraltar's choice or Johnson's?RogerOThornhill wrote:After noon all.And, lest we forget, Gilbraltar voted overwhelmingly to Remain.PorFavor wrote:The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels.
The Observer has learned that the Spanish government has insisted on reference to the Rock in the EU’s opening negotiating position, which will be published in draft form on Monday.
Boris Johnson will be presented with the choice of reaching agreement with the Spaniards about Gibraltar’s future or exposing its citizens to economic peril by pushing it outside any EU-UK trade deal. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Stick with a UK that ignored your wishes or face financial ruin? Tough decision...
Joel Hills
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Just over a year ago @SteveBarclay visited Norton Motorcycles. He called it a “great business” that would thrive when UK leaves the EU. Norton went into administration two days ago. CEO claims “uncertainties over Brexit” were a major factor in the company’s failure.
Good lord, I'm sorry to read that, AK. I hope you're feeling better now.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Went down with food poisoning last night, can't help seeing that as appropriate somehow,
I don't think that, in general terms, there's anything uncertain about it.Brexit: Britain wakes up to uncertain future after UK leaves EU
I have no idea, sorry but this from wiki...citizenJA wrote:@RogerOThornhill
What are Gibraltar's options? Will they get to decide their fate or no?
So, Brexit may lead to another referendum. Same result as last time? Maybe not.The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations because Spain asserts a claim to the territory.[15][12] Gibraltarians rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in a 1967 referendum and, in a 2002 referendum, the idea of shared sovereignty was also rejected.
Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
yeah, out of the EU and in some pretty shitPorFavor wrote:Below is today's header for the Guardian's Politics Live:
I don't think that, in general terms, there's anything uncertain about it.Brexit: Britain wakes up to uncertain future after UK leaves EU
Its simply the reality I'm afraid. Even a meaningful campaign to rejoin might be a decade off.PorFavor wrote:Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Emperor Hirohito Shōwa (裕仁 昭和天皇 ) most sublime surrender everPorFavor wrote:Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
I'd like to know what the authorities responsible for this have planned for people. I'm fucking terrified.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its simply the reality I'm afraid. Even a meaningful campaign to rejoin might be a decade off.PorFavor wrote:Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Businesses will be informed of this on Monday, according to the article.
From the DT ” One trade chief, who spoke on condition of anonymity to preserve his relations, said the UK “might as well put the barbed wire up” if they were determined to press ahead with the plans, given the lack of physical space at UK ports for inspection facilities. ”citizenJA wrote:Businesses will be informed of this on Monday, according to the article.
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its simply the reality I'm afraid. Even a meaningful campaign to rejoin might be a decade off.PorFavor wrote:Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Brexit has come to be about more than just the EU. The rift revealed by the EU referendum goes way beyond our political and trading relationship with the EU. Yes, this battle has been lost, but the war, between English nationalist social conservatism on the one hand and outward-looking, Eurocentric liberal progressivism on the other, is still raging.PorFavor wrote:Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Given we're no longer in the EU, that's kind of obvious. Unless you're saying Long Bailey and Nandy think Labour members are all dim-witted morons with less grasp of current affairs than a four year old, the only reason to tell people Brexit is over and they need to move on is because they have no intention of opposing and fighting the anti-immigration, full and complete break from EU institutions favoured by leave voters of the type they think Labour have lost in their northern heartlands and are desperate to win back with appeasement and a shift to more socially conservative values.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Those things should all be fought for, its just that for now we will have to do it outside the EU.
The problem with "moving on" is where we're moving to. The fight against Brexit was never a fight against leaving the EU, it was a fight against what the Tories needed us to leave the EU for.Lewis Goodall
@lewis_goodall
One of the major push factors of a Brexit was Margaret Thatcher. She summed it up herself in Bruges in 1988- she thought the EU risked recreating the barriers to the successful free market economy she wanted.
Fundamentally from the late 80s on Europe became a question in Britain of market liberalism vs social democracy. After profound political failure from the late 70s, to some extent Europe became Labour’s answer and salvation.
They could protect elements of social democracy in Britain from any future Tory govt
For elements of the Tory Party, “sovereignty” essentially became a synonym for economic liberalism. Hence the language around “global Britain”, working time directive etc. Thatcher’s successors took her lead- Europe was holding them back from creating the economy they wanted.
Brexit is therefore a huge victory for that bit of the right and a body blow for the left. It represents an opportunity to reimagine Britain’s political economy and shift our whole regulatory model. I don’t think the left have even begun to internalise the enormity of it yet.
Their social democratic safety net, is gone.
(cJA edit)Willow904 wrote:---
The problem with "moving on" is where we're moving to. The fight against Brexit was never a fight against leaving the EU, it was a fight against what the Tories needed us to leave the EU for.
Rather hard to argue with that.tinyclanger2 wrote:Brits are astoundingly ignorant politically.
Leave it until the year after next then, you reckon?The issue about moving on, I think, is that having left, having voted to leave, and having just elected Johnson and co, I find it impossible to believe that the country would vote for all that rejoining would all but certainly entail - the Euro, Schengen, no other opt outs,no budget rebates. Obviously things might feel very different if we're looking around deciding who to eat next and whether you can make effective pharmaceuticals from sand . . .
A poster telling residents of a block of flats “we do not tolerate” people speaking languages other than English in the building has been reported to police.
The typewritten poster, bearing the title “Happy Brexit Day”, was reportedly found stuck to fire doors in Winchester Tower in Norwich on Friday morning. The discovery came hours before the UK officially left the European Union at 11pm later that day.
A photo of the poster shared in news reports and on social media revealed that it declared: “We finally have our great country back.”
Addressing Winchester Tower residents, it said the “Queens (sic) English is the spoken tongue here” and suggests that people wanting to speak a language other than English should leave the country.
Accepting we've left the EU and won't rejoin is one thing, and pretty easy to accept as it's an obvious fact, but accepting that fact isn't the same as "moving on". "Moving on" implies finding something positive in it and going forward. Language matters. Facts are facts but "moving on" is more an emotion and Labour risks losing those voters who feel most strongly about remain if they ignore that. Being unhappy we've left the EU and wanting to express that is a valid political position.adam wrote:The issue about moving on, I think, is that having left, having voted to leave, and having just elected Johnson and co, I find it impossible to believe that the country would vote for all that rejoining would all but certainly entail - the Euro, Schengen, no other opt outs,no budget rebates. Obviously things might feel very different if we're looking around deciding who to eat next and whether you can make effective pharmaceuticals from sand, but I think we're out for the very long haul. We might be better off working towards the kind of thing that wouldn't need to go to a referendum, like a much closer trading relationship.
Yes, completely agree. I think all of the 'let's pull together' talk is ridiculous bullshit.Willow904 wrote:Accepting we've left the EU and won't rejoin is one thing, and pretty easy to accept as it's an obvious fact, but accepting that fact isn't the same as "moving on". "Moving on" implies finding something positive in it and going forward. Language matters. Facts are facts but "moving on" is more an emotion and Labour risks losing those voters who feel most strongly about remain if they ignore that. Being unhappy we've left the EU and wanting to express that is a valid political position.adam wrote:The issue about moving on, I think, is that having left, having voted to leave, and having just elected Johnson and co, I find it impossible to believe that the country would vote for all that rejoining would all but certainly entail - the Euro, Schengen, no other opt outs,no budget rebates. Obviously things might feel very different if we're looking around deciding who to eat next and whether you can make effective pharmaceuticals from sand, but I think we're out for the very long haul. We might be better off working towards the kind of thing that wouldn't need to go to a referendum, like a much closer trading relationship.
Moving on? I think one of the big issues behind this is, and is increasingly going to be, (and is something that is already happening and has been for sometime), an attempt by the leave campaign to say 'not our fault'. We certainly shouldn't be moving on from that, from who did what and from what people told us we would achieve. (People = leaders here. Hoi polloi think whatever for any reason and no reason and quite right too. Political leaders are culpable).HindleA wrote:What phrase would you use to replace/express that?.Genuine question,the bemoaned phrase is often used after a death,of course ,as well as other ones on a far more bullshit level-time is a healer etc .It very much depends on interpretation ie.you can't move back and change history.
I was horrified that Starmer, Nandy, and RL-B were all apparently going to treat Brexit (whatever that is!) as a fact of life , a fait accompli !Willow904 wrote:Given we're no longer in the EU, that's kind of obvious. Unless you're saying Long Bailey and Nandy think Labour members are all dim-witted morons with less grasp of current affairs than a four year old, the only reason to tell people Brexit is over and they need to move on is because they have no intention of opposing and fighting the anti-immigration, full and complete break from EU institutions favoured by leave voters of the type they think Labour have lost in their northern heartlands and are desperate to win back with appeasement and a shift to more socially conservative values.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Those things should all be fought for, its just that for now we will have to do it outside the EU.
As I say, if that's not what they are intending to signal, they're going to need to choose their words far more carefully.