Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Morning all.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd Febraury 2020
It's a new month! Well, Febraury is a new one on me, anyway . . .
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd Febraury 2020
Oh - good morfternoon.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd Febraury 2020
OopsPorFavor wrote:It's a new month! Well, Febraury is a new one on me, anyway . . .
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels.
The Observer has learned that the Spanish government has insisted on reference to the Rock in the EU’s opening negotiating position, which will be published in draft form on Monday.
Boris Johnson will be presented with the choice of reaching agreement with the Spaniards about Gibraltar’s future or exposing its citizens to economic peril by pushing it outside any EU-UK trade deal. (Politics Live, Guardian)
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Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
After noon all.
Stick with a UK that ignored your wishes or face financial ruin? Tough decision...
And, lest we forget, Gilbraltar voted overwhelmingly to Remain.PorFavor wrote:The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels.
The Observer has learned that the Spanish government has insisted on reference to the Rock in the EU’s opening negotiating position, which will be published in draft form on Monday.
Boris Johnson will be presented with the choice of reaching agreement with the Spaniards about Gibraltar’s future or exposing its citizens to economic peril by pushing it outside any EU-UK trade deal. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Stick with a UK that ignored your wishes or face financial ruin? Tough decision...
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Good afternoon, everyone.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Is it Gibraltar's choice or Johnson's?RogerOThornhill wrote:After noon all.And, lest we forget, Gilbraltar voted overwhelmingly to Remain.PorFavor wrote:The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels.
The Observer has learned that the Spanish government has insisted on reference to the Rock in the EU’s opening negotiating position, which will be published in draft form on Monday.
Boris Johnson will be presented with the choice of reaching agreement with the Spaniards about Gibraltar’s future or exposing its citizens to economic peril by pushing it outside any EU-UK trade deal. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Stick with a UK that ignored your wishes or face financial ruin? Tough decision...
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Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Went down with food poisoning last night, can't help seeing that as appropriate somehow,
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
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Just over a year ago @SteveBarclay visited Norton Motorcycles. He called it a “great business” that would thrive when UK leaves the EU. Norton went into administration two days ago. CEO claims “uncertainties over Brexit” were a major factor in the company’s failure.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
I've read AnatolyKasparov's recommendation by James Butler in the London Review of Books (LRB) about Labour and the general election.
I'll post the link to the article though I think it's subscriber accessed only.
What Happened? James Butler on Labour’s defeat.
I didn't get this from AK or Butler's article but It's my understanding there'll be more analysis of data on the last GE. Is this true? Have I missed it?
I'll post the link to the article though I think it's subscriber accessed only.
What Happened? James Butler on Labour’s defeat.
I didn't get this from AK or Butler's article but It's my understanding there'll be more analysis of data on the last GE. Is this true? Have I missed it?
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Good lord, I'm sorry to read that, AK. I hope you're feeling better now.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Went down with food poisoning last night, can't help seeing that as appropriate somehow,
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
@RogerOThornhill
What are Gibraltar's options? Will they get to decide their fate or no?
What are Gibraltar's options? Will they get to decide their fate or no?
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Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Yes, hopefully I am over the worst now. Nothing but liquids all day tho!
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Below is today's header for the Guardian's Politics Live:
I don't think that, in general terms, there's anything uncertain about it.Brexit: Britain wakes up to uncertain future after UK leaves EU
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Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
I have no idea, sorry but this from wiki...citizenJA wrote:@RogerOThornhill
What are Gibraltar's options? Will they get to decide their fate or no?
So, Brexit may lead to another referendum. Same result as last time? Maybe not.The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations because Spain asserts a claim to the territory.[15][12] Gibraltarians rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in a 1967 referendum and, in a 2002 referendum, the idea of shared sovereignty was also rejected.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Thank you, Roger. I notice an urgency in my questions, here and elsewhere. I want to know what is going on, what's real. I appreciate your help.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
yeah, out of the EU and in some pretty shitPorFavor wrote:Below is today's header for the Guardian's Politics Live:
I don't think that, in general terms, there's anything uncertain about it.Brexit: Britain wakes up to uncertain future after UK leaves EU
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Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Its simply the reality I'm afraid. Even a meaningful campaign to rejoin might be a decade off.PorFavor wrote:Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
I didn't get where I am today by accepting the unacceptable.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Emperor Hirohito Shōwa (裕仁 昭和天皇 ) most sublime surrender everPorFavor wrote:Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
I'd like to know what the authorities responsible for this have planned for people. I'm fucking terrified.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its simply the reality I'm afraid. Even a meaningful campaign to rejoin might be a decade off.PorFavor wrote:Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Businesses will be informed of this on Monday, according to the article.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
From the DT ” One trade chief, who spoke on condition of anonymity to preserve his relations, said the UK “might as well put the barbed wire up” if they were determined to press ahead with the plans, given the lack of physical space at UK ports for inspection facilities. ”citizenJA wrote:Businesses will be informed of this on Monday, according to the article.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
@frog22
Despite appreciating the seriousness of your post, it made me laugh. Is he pickling his relations?
Despite appreciating the seriousness of your post, it made me laugh. Is he pickling his relations?
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
@AnatolyKasparov
I hope you're feeling better.
I hope you're feeling better.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its simply the reality I'm afraid. Even a meaningful campaign to rejoin might be a decade off.PorFavor wrote:Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
We'd better get started now, then.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Brexit has come to be about more than just the EU. The rift revealed by the EU referendum goes way beyond our political and trading relationship with the EU. Yes, this battle has been lost, but the war, between English nationalist social conservatism on the one hand and outward-looking, Eurocentric liberal progressivism on the other, is still raging.PorFavor wrote:Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Asking people to "move on" sounds very like asking people to give up. Give up on everything they believe in. Not a good look for a principled party of opposition. Labour's next leader is going to need to choose their words very carefully if they're not to come across as completely defeated by Brexit and everything the Brexit movement is trying to achieve before they've even begun.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Exactly. Very "roll over and accept defeat". I thought Labour was built on, and for, quite the opposite.
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Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Those things should all be fought for, its just that for now we will have to do it outside the EU.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Given we're no longer in the EU, that's kind of obvious. Unless you're saying Long Bailey and Nandy think Labour members are all dim-witted morons with less grasp of current affairs than a four year old, the only reason to tell people Brexit is over and they need to move on is because they have no intention of opposing and fighting the anti-immigration, full and complete break from EU institutions favoured by leave voters of the type they think Labour have lost in their northern heartlands and are desperate to win back with appeasement and a shift to more socially conservative values.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Those things should all be fought for, its just that for now we will have to do it outside the EU.
As I say, if that's not what they are intending to signal, they're going to need to choose their words far more carefully.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
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The problem with "moving on" is where we're moving to. The fight against Brexit was never a fight against leaving the EU, it was a fight against what the Tories needed us to leave the EU for.Lewis Goodall
@lewis_goodall
One of the major push factors of a Brexit was Margaret Thatcher. She summed it up herself in Bruges in 1988- she thought the EU risked recreating the barriers to the successful free market economy she wanted.
Fundamentally from the late 80s on Europe became a question in Britain of market liberalism vs social democracy. After profound political failure from the late 70s, to some extent Europe became Labour’s answer and salvation.
They could protect elements of social democracy in Britain from any future Tory govt
For elements of the Tory Party, “sovereignty” essentially became a synonym for economic liberalism. Hence the language around “global Britain”, working time directive etc. Thatcher’s successors took her lead- Europe was holding them back from creating the economy they wanted.
Brexit is therefore a huge victory for that bit of the right and a body blow for the left. It represents an opportunity to reimagine Britain’s political economy and shift our whole regulatory model. I don’t think the left have even begun to internalise the enormity of it yet.
Their social democratic safety net, is gone.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Something Jeremy Corbyn seemed unable to grasp - stuck, as he is, somewhere in the 1970s. As things stand, we're hostage to the Conservatives and all that that entails.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
(cJA edit)Willow904 wrote:---
The problem with "moving on" is where we're moving to. The fight against Brexit was never a fight against leaving the EU, it was a fight against what the Tories needed us to leave the EU for.
Yes. I'm astounded many millions of people didn't help prevent Tories back into government.
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Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Brits are astoundingly ignorant politically.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Rather hard to argue with that.tinyclanger2 wrote:Brits are astoundingly ignorant politically.
Our electoral system doesn't help, though, does it? Largest minority wins all spells misery for the majority in a polarised country. Our system was designed to choose between slightly different views amongst a mostly homogenous upper class, it's not very useful for finding consensus between mutually exclusive ideologies.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Hence, next on the agenda is to trigger burgeoning demand for PR and a much more diverse political landscape. It’s the only good can come out of The Debacle.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
The issue about moving on, I think, is that having left, having voted to leave, and having just elected Johnson and co, I find it impossible to believe that the country would vote for all that rejoining would all but certainly entail - the Euro, Schengen, no other opt outs,no budget rebates. Obviously things might feel very different if we're looking around deciding who to eat next and whether you can make effective pharmaceuticals from sand, but I think we're out for the very long haul. We might be better off working towards the kind of thing that wouldn't need to go to a referendum, like a much closer trading relationship.
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
@adam
Leave it until the year after next then, you reckon?The issue about moving on, I think, is that having left, having voted to leave, and having just elected Johnson and co, I find it impossible to believe that the country would vote for all that rejoining would all but certainly entail - the Euro, Schengen, no other opt outs,no budget rebates. Obviously things might feel very different if we're looking around deciding who to eat next and whether you can make effective pharmaceuticals from sand . . .
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Police called in after poster tells residents of flats to speak English ‘Happy Brexit Day’ sign in Norwich block said foreign tongues would not be tolerated.
A poster telling residents of a block of flats “we do not tolerate” people speaking languages other than English in the building has been reported to police.
The typewritten poster, bearing the title “Happy Brexit Day”, was reportedly found stuck to fire doors in Winchester Tower in Norwich on Friday morning. The discovery came hours before the UK officially left the European Union at 11pm later that day.
A photo of the poster shared in news reports and on social media revealed that it declared: “We finally have our great country back.”
Addressing Winchester Tower residents, it said the “Queens (sic) English is the spoken tongue here” and suggests that people wanting to speak a language other than English should leave the country.
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Accepting we've left the EU and won't rejoin is one thing, and pretty easy to accept as it's an obvious fact, but accepting that fact isn't the same as "moving on". "Moving on" implies finding something positive in it and going forward. Language matters. Facts are facts but "moving on" is more an emotion and Labour risks losing those voters who feel most strongly about remain if they ignore that. Being unhappy we've left the EU and wanting to express that is a valid political position.adam wrote:The issue about moving on, I think, is that having left, having voted to leave, and having just elected Johnson and co, I find it impossible to believe that the country would vote for all that rejoining would all but certainly entail - the Euro, Schengen, no other opt outs,no budget rebates. Obviously things might feel very different if we're looking around deciding who to eat next and whether you can make effective pharmaceuticals from sand, but I think we're out for the very long haul. We might be better off working towards the kind of thing that wouldn't need to go to a referendum, like a much closer trading relationship.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA
love,
cJA
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Yes, completely agree. I think all of the 'let's pull together' talk is ridiculous bullshit.Willow904 wrote:Accepting we've left the EU and won't rejoin is one thing, and pretty easy to accept as it's an obvious fact, but accepting that fact isn't the same as "moving on". "Moving on" implies finding something positive in it and going forward. Language matters. Facts are facts but "moving on" is more an emotion and Labour risks losing those voters who feel most strongly about remain if they ignore that. Being unhappy we've left the EU and wanting to express that is a valid political position.adam wrote:The issue about moving on, I think, is that having left, having voted to leave, and having just elected Johnson and co, I find it impossible to believe that the country would vote for all that rejoining would all but certainly entail - the Euro, Schengen, no other opt outs,no budget rebates. Obviously things might feel very different if we're looking around deciding who to eat next and whether you can make effective pharmaceuticals from sand, but I think we're out for the very long haul. We might be better off working towards the kind of thing that wouldn't need to go to a referendum, like a much closer trading relationship.
I still believe in a town called Hope
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Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Self exploded
Last edited by HindleA on Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
With a desire to be distracted by very different awful triviality, with 14 games left to play, it is impossible for Arsenal to win the league.
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Moving on? I think one of the big issues behind this is, and is increasingly going to be, (and is something that is already happening and has been for sometime), an attempt by the leave campaign to say 'not our fault'. We certainly shouldn't be moving on from that, from who did what and from what people told us we would achieve. (People = leaders here. Hoi polloi think whatever for any reason and no reason and quite right too. Political leaders are culpable).HindleA wrote:What phrase would you use to replace/express that?.Genuine question,the bemoaned phrase is often used after a death,of course ,as well as other ones on a far more bullshit level-time is a healer etc .It very much depends on interpretation ie.you can't move back and change history.
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
Btw I do agree Labour should be championing a soft Brexit. I've been saying that Labour should support a soft Brexit within the single market since the referendum.
This surely would be a "remain" position , though, painted as not really Brexit by the hardliners. I'm not sure this is what Long Bailey and Nandy are indicating they support.
This surely would be a "remain" position , though, painted as not really Brexit by the hardliners. I'm not sure this is what Long Bailey and Nandy are indicating they support.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020
I was horrified that Starmer, Nandy, and RL-B were all apparently going to treat Brexit (whatever that is!) as a fact of life , a fait accompli !Willow904 wrote:Given we're no longer in the EU, that's kind of obvious. Unless you're saying Long Bailey and Nandy think Labour members are all dim-witted morons with less grasp of current affairs than a four year old, the only reason to tell people Brexit is over and they need to move on is because they have no intention of opposing and fighting the anti-immigration, full and complete break from EU institutions favoured by leave voters of the type they think Labour have lost in their northern heartlands and are desperate to win back with appeasement and a shift to more socially conservative values.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Those things should all be fought for, its just that for now we will have to do it outside the EU.
As I say, if that's not what they are intending to signal, they're going to need to choose their words far more carefully.
WHEN we still don't know what (the fuck) it is .
My reaction was and IS to make the Tories own it as far as possible , and certainly NOT to appease the ridiculous historical 'heartlands' and that bloody RED WAIL . (sic!)