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Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 9:05 am
by refitman
Morning all.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd Febraury 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 10:41 am
by PorFavor
It's a new month! Well, Febraury is a new one on me, anyway . . .

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd Febraury 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:24 am
by PorFavor
Oh - good morfternoon.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd Febraury 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:56 am
by refitman
PorFavor wrote:It's a new month! Well, Febraury is a new one on me, anyway . . .
Oops :roll:

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 1:06 pm
by PorFavor
The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels.

The Observer has learned that the Spanish government has insisted on reference to the Rock in the EU’s opening negotiating position, which will be published in draft form on Monday.

Boris Johnson will be presented with the choice of reaching agreement with the Spaniards about Gibraltar’s future or exposing its citizens to economic peril by pushing it outside any EU-UK trade deal. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 1:29 pm
by RogerOThornhill
After noon all.
PorFavor wrote:
The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels.

The Observer has learned that the Spanish government has insisted on reference to the Rock in the EU’s opening negotiating position, which will be published in draft form on Monday.

Boris Johnson will be presented with the choice of reaching agreement with the Spaniards about Gibraltar’s future or exposing its citizens to economic peril by pushing it outside any EU-UK trade deal. (Politics Live, Guardian)
And, lest we forget, Gilbraltar voted overwhelmingly to Remain.

Stick with a UK that ignored your wishes or face financial ruin? Tough decision...

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 1:35 pm
by citizenJA
Good afternoon, everyone.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 1:40 pm
by citizenJA
RogerOThornhill wrote:After noon all.
PorFavor wrote:
The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels.

The Observer has learned that the Spanish government has insisted on reference to the Rock in the EU’s opening negotiating position, which will be published in draft form on Monday.

Boris Johnson will be presented with the choice of reaching agreement with the Spaniards about Gibraltar’s future or exposing its citizens to economic peril by pushing it outside any EU-UK trade deal. (Politics Live, Guardian)
And, lest we forget, Gilbraltar voted overwhelmingly to Remain.

Stick with a UK that ignored your wishes or face financial ruin? Tough decision...
Is it Gibraltar's choice or Johnson's?

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 1:45 pm
by AnatolyKasparov
Went down with food poisoning last night, can't help seeing that as appropriate somehow,

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 2:02 pm
by RogerOThornhill
Joel Hills

Verified account

@ITVJoel
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Just over a year ago ⁦@SteveBarclay⁩ visited Norton Motorcycles. He called it a “great business” that would thrive when UK leaves the EU. Norton went into administration two days ago. CEO claims “uncertainties over Brexit” were a major factor in the company’s failure.
:roll:

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 2:11 pm
by citizenJA
I've read AnatolyKasparov's recommendation by James Butler in the London Review of Books (LRB) about Labour and the general election.
I'll post the link to the article though I think it's subscriber accessed only.
What Happened? James Butler on Labour’s defeat.
I didn't get this from AK or Butler's article but It's my understanding there'll be more analysis of data on the last GE. Is this true? Have I missed it?

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 2:11 pm
by citizenJA
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Went down with food poisoning last night, can't help seeing that as appropriate somehow,
Good lord, I'm sorry to read that, AK. I hope you're feeling better now.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 2:16 pm
by citizenJA
@RogerOThornhill
What are Gibraltar's options? Will they get to decide their fate or no?

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 2:16 pm
by AnatolyKasparov
Yes, hopefully I am over the worst now. Nothing but liquids all day tho!

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 2:23 pm
by PorFavor
Below is today's header for the Guardian's Politics Live:
Brexit: Britain wakes up to uncertain future after UK leaves EU
I don't think that, in general terms, there's anything uncertain about it.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 2:23 pm
by RogerOThornhill
citizenJA wrote:@RogerOThornhill
What are Gibraltar's options? Will they get to decide their fate or no?
I have no idea, sorry but this from wiki...
The sovereignty of Gibraltar is a point of contention in Anglo-Spanish relations because Spain asserts a claim to the territory.[15][12] Gibraltarians rejected proposals for Spanish sovereignty in a 1967 referendum and, in a 2002 referendum, the idea of shared sovereignty was also rejected.
So, Brexit may lead to another referendum. Same result as last time? Maybe not.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 3:36 pm
by citizenJA
Thank you, Roger. I notice an urgency in my questions, here and elsewhere. I want to know what is going on, what's real. I appreciate your help.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 3:41 pm
by PorFavor
Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 3:56 pm
by citizenJA
PorFavor wrote:Below is today's header for the Guardian's Politics Live:
Brexit: Britain wakes up to uncertain future after UK leaves EU
I don't think that, in general terms, there's anything uncertain about it.
yeah, out of the EU and in some pretty shit

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 4:34 pm
by AnatolyKasparov
PorFavor wrote:
Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.
Its simply the reality I'm afraid. Even a meaningful campaign to rejoin might be a decade off.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 4:46 pm
by tinyclanger2
I didn't get where I am today by accepting the unacceptable.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 5:07 pm
by citizenJA
PorFavor wrote:
Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.
Emperor Hirohito Shōwa (裕仁 昭和天皇 ) most sublime surrender ever

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 5:21 pm
by citizenJA
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.
Its simply the reality I'm afraid. Even a meaningful campaign to rejoin might be a decade off.
I'd like to know what the authorities responsible for this have planned for people. I'm fucking terrified.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 5:28 pm
by citizenJA
Businesses will be informed of this on Monday, according to the article.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 5:57 pm
by frog222
citizenJA wrote:
Businesses will be informed of this on Monday, according to the article.
From the DT ” One trade chief, who spoke on condition of anonymity to preserve his relations, said the UK “might as well put the barbed wire up” if they were determined to press ahead with the plans, given the lack of physical space at UK ports for inspection facilities. ”

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 6:02 pm
by PorFavor
@frog22

Despite appreciating the seriousness of your post, it made me laugh. Is he pickling his relations?

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 6:18 pm
by PorFavor
@AnatolyKasparov

I hope you're feeling better.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 6:23 pm
by PorFavor
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.
Its simply the reality I'm afraid. Even a meaningful campaign to rejoin might be a decade off.

We'd better get started now, then.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 7:12 pm
by Willow904
PorFavor wrote:
Labour leadership hopefuls Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy have urged the party to accept Brexit and move on, during the first hustings since the UK’s departure from the European Union. (Politics Live, Guardian)
Sorry, I'm not minded to accept the unacceptable.
Brexit has come to be about more than just the EU. The rift revealed by the EU referendum goes way beyond our political and trading relationship with the EU. Yes, this battle has been lost, but the war, between English nationalist social conservatism on the one hand and outward-looking, Eurocentric liberal progressivism on the other, is still raging.

Asking people to "move on" sounds very like asking people to give up. Give up on everything they believe in. Not a good look for a principled party of opposition. Labour's next leader is going to need to choose their words very carefully if they're not to come across as completely defeated by Brexit and everything the Brexit movement is trying to achieve before they've even begun.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 7:15 pm
by PorFavor
Exactly. Very "roll over and accept defeat". I thought Labour was built on, and for, quite the opposite.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 7:21 pm
by AnatolyKasparov
Those things should all be fought for, its just that for now we will have to do it outside the EU.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 7:46 pm
by Willow904
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Those things should all be fought for, its just that for now we will have to do it outside the EU.
Given we're no longer in the EU, that's kind of obvious. Unless you're saying Long Bailey and Nandy think Labour members are all dim-witted morons with less grasp of current affairs than a four year old, the only reason to tell people Brexit is over and they need to move on is because they have no intention of opposing and fighting the anti-immigration, full and complete break from EU institutions favoured by leave voters of the type they think Labour have lost in their northern heartlands and are desperate to win back with appeasement and a shift to more socially conservative values.

As I say, if that's not what they are intending to signal, they're going to need to choose their words far more carefully.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 8:21 pm
by Willow904
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Lewis Goodall
@lewis_goodall
One of the major push factors of a Brexit was Margaret Thatcher. She summed it up herself in Bruges in 1988- she thought the EU risked recreating the barriers to the successful free market economy she wanted.

Fundamentally from the late 80s on Europe became a question in Britain of market liberalism vs social democracy. After profound political failure from the late 70s, to some extent Europe became Labour’s answer and salvation.

They could protect elements of social democracy in Britain from any future Tory govt

For elements of the Tory Party, “sovereignty” essentially became a synonym for economic liberalism. Hence the language around “global Britain”, working time directive etc. Thatcher’s successors took her lead- Europe was holding them back from creating the economy they wanted.

Brexit is therefore a huge victory for that bit of the right and a body blow for the left. It represents an opportunity to reimagine Britain’s political economy and shift our whole regulatory model. I don’t think the left have even begun to internalise the enormity of it yet.

Their social democratic safety net, is gone.
The problem with "moving on" is where we're moving to. The fight against Brexit was never a fight against leaving the EU, it was a fight against what the Tories needed us to leave the EU for.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 8:34 pm
by PorFavor
Something Jeremy Corbyn seemed unable to grasp - stuck, as he is, somewhere in the 1970s. As things stand, we're hostage to the Conservatives and all that that entails.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 9:10 pm
by citizenJA
Willow904 wrote:---
The problem with "moving on" is where we're moving to. The fight against Brexit was never a fight against leaving the EU, it was a fight against what the Tories needed us to leave the EU for.
(cJA edit)
Yes. I'm astounded many millions of people didn't help prevent Tories back into government.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 10:05 pm
by tinyclanger2
Brits are astoundingly ignorant politically.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 10:26 pm
by Willow904
tinyclanger2 wrote:Brits are astoundingly ignorant politically.
Rather hard to argue with that.

Our electoral system doesn't help, though, does it? Largest minority wins all spells misery for the majority in a polarised country. Our system was designed to choose between slightly different views amongst a mostly homogenous upper class, it's not very useful for finding consensus between mutually exclusive ideologies.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 10:33 pm
by tinyclanger2
Totally agree

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 10:35 pm
by tinyclanger2
Hence, next on the agenda is to trigger burgeoning demand for PR and a much more diverse political landscape. It’s the only good can come out of The Debacle.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 10:54 pm
by adam
The issue about moving on, I think, is that having left, having voted to leave, and having just elected Johnson and co, I find it impossible to believe that the country would vote for all that rejoining would all but certainly entail - the Euro, Schengen, no other opt outs,no budget rebates. Obviously things might feel very different if we're looking around deciding who to eat next and whether you can make effective pharmaceuticals from sand, but I think we're out for the very long haul. We might be better off working towards the kind of thing that wouldn't need to go to a referendum, like a much closer trading relationship.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:01 pm
by PorFavor
@adam
The issue about moving on, I think, is that having left, having voted to leave, and having just elected Johnson and co, I find it impossible to believe that the country would vote for all that rejoining would all but certainly entail - the Euro, Schengen, no other opt outs,no budget rebates. Obviously things might feel very different if we're looking around deciding who to eat next and whether you can make effective pharmaceuticals from sand . . .
Leave it until the year after next then, you reckon?

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:22 pm
by adam
Police called in after poster tells residents of flats to speak English ‘Happy Brexit Day’ sign in Norwich block said foreign tongues would not be tolerated.
A poster telling residents of a block of flats “we do not tolerate” people speaking languages other than English in the building has been reported to police.
The typewritten poster, bearing the title “Happy Brexit Day”, was reportedly found stuck to fire doors in Winchester Tower in Norwich on Friday morning. The discovery came hours before the UK officially left the European Union at 11pm later that day.
A photo of the poster shared in news reports and on social media revealed that it declared: “We finally have our great country back.”
Addressing Winchester Tower residents, it said the “Queens (sic) English is the spoken tongue here” and suggests that people wanting to speak a language other than English should leave the country.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:30 pm
by Willow904
adam wrote:The issue about moving on, I think, is that having left, having voted to leave, and having just elected Johnson and co, I find it impossible to believe that the country would vote for all that rejoining would all but certainly entail - the Euro, Schengen, no other opt outs,no budget rebates. Obviously things might feel very different if we're looking around deciding who to eat next and whether you can make effective pharmaceuticals from sand, but I think we're out for the very long haul. We might be better off working towards the kind of thing that wouldn't need to go to a referendum, like a much closer trading relationship.
Accepting we've left the EU and won't rejoin is one thing, and pretty easy to accept as it's an obvious fact, but accepting that fact isn't the same as "moving on". "Moving on" implies finding something positive in it and going forward. Language matters. Facts are facts but "moving on" is more an emotion and Labour risks losing those voters who feel most strongly about remain if they ignore that. Being unhappy we've left the EU and wanting to express that is a valid political position.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:34 pm
by citizenJA
Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:36 pm
by adam
Willow904 wrote:
adam wrote:The issue about moving on, I think, is that having left, having voted to leave, and having just elected Johnson and co, I find it impossible to believe that the country would vote for all that rejoining would all but certainly entail - the Euro, Schengen, no other opt outs,no budget rebates. Obviously things might feel very different if we're looking around deciding who to eat next and whether you can make effective pharmaceuticals from sand, but I think we're out for the very long haul. We might be better off working towards the kind of thing that wouldn't need to go to a referendum, like a much closer trading relationship.
Accepting we've left the EU and won't rejoin is one thing, and pretty easy to accept as it's an obvious fact, but accepting that fact isn't the same as "moving on". "Moving on" implies finding something positive in it and going forward. Language matters. Facts are facts but "moving on" is more an emotion and Labour risks losing those voters who feel most strongly about remain if they ignore that. Being unhappy we've left the EU and wanting to express that is a valid political position.
Yes, completely agree. I think all of the 'let's pull together' talk is ridiculous bullshit.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:38 pm
by HindleA
Self exploded

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:38 pm
by adam
With a desire to be distracted by very different awful triviality, with 14 games left to play, it is impossible for Arsenal to win the league.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:41 pm
by adam
HindleA wrote:What phrase would you use to replace/express that?.Genuine question,the bemoaned phrase is often used after a death,of course ,as well as other ones on a far more bullshit level-time is a healer etc .It very much depends on interpretation ie.you can't move back and change history.
Moving on? I think one of the big issues behind this is, and is increasingly going to be, (and is something that is already happening and has been for sometime), an attempt by the leave campaign to say 'not our fault'. We certainly shouldn't be moving on from that, from who did what and from what people told us we would achieve. (People = leaders here. Hoi polloi think whatever for any reason and no reason and quite right too. Political leaders are culpable).

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:42 pm
by Willow904
Btw I do agree Labour should be championing a soft Brexit. I've been saying that Labour should support a soft Brexit within the single market since the referendum.

This surely would be a "remain" position , though, painted as not really Brexit by the hardliners. I'm not sure this is what Long Bailey and Nandy are indicating they support.

Re: Saturday 1st & Sunday 2nd February 2020

Posted: Sat 01 Feb, 2020 11:44 pm
by frog222
Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Those things should all be fought for, its just that for now we will have to do it outside the EU.
Given we're no longer in the EU, that's kind of obvious. Unless you're saying Long Bailey and Nandy think Labour members are all dim-witted morons with less grasp of current affairs than a four year old, the only reason to tell people Brexit is over and they need to move on is because they have no intention of opposing and fighting the anti-immigration, full and complete break from EU institutions favoured by leave voters of the type they think Labour have lost in their northern heartlands and are desperate to win back with appeasement and a shift to more socially conservative values.

As I say, if that's not what they are intending to signal, they're going to need to choose their words far more carefully.
I was horrified that Starmer, Nandy, and RL-B were all apparently going to treat Brexit (whatever that is!) as a fact of life , a fait accompli !

WHEN we still don't know what (the fuck) it is .

My reaction was and IS to make the Tories own it as far as possible , and certainly NOT to appease the ridiculous historical 'heartlands' and that bloody RED WAIL . (sic!)