FlyTheNest

A haven
It is currently Wed 26 Feb, 2020 7:25 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 7:42 am 
Online
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:22 pm
Posts: 3920
Location: Wombwell, United Kingdom
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 7228 times
Morning all.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 10:18 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ism-labour


"If you largely speak of your constituents as victims then you disempower them."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 10:27 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
Oh er,a name from the past-Stephen Dolan,appears to be browsing-hello.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 10:38 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:18 pm
Posts: 7903
Has thanked: 8357 times
Been thanked: 12556 times
Morning all

_________________
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 10:51 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
I don't necessarily agree with Moore,but definitely a danger.Also if you don't view yourself as a victim/ don't view the causation in similar terms and/or think Labour will "save"you (even ignoring the often patronisation inherent in the exposition of much of the narrative it can either fall on deaf ears or positively turn against.I understand the "attempt"to garner support and granted the "positivity" was "another way" and as to how to lessen those possible effects,it isn't easy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 11:15 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 10457
Has thanked: 1045 times
Been thanked: 20475 times
HindleA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/08/happiness-wellbeing-political-agenda-tories-optimism-labour


"If you largely speak of your constituents as victims then you disempower them."


But the point is that the Tory "optimism" is largely forced and fake, and over time that will become obvious enough.

And a similar "can do" spirit worked for Blair, for a while. Until it didn't. And tbf to him the 90s was a genuine "boom" period, unlike now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 11:46 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 6309
Has thanked: 11669 times
Been thanked: 14557 times
A lot of the optimism of the early Blair years came from the slightly more rational circumstance of a change of government after 17 years.

More of the same with the economic shock of Brexit thrown in is, on the other hand, a slightly less obvious thing to be optimistic about.

"Forced and fake" is a good way to describe it and I'm going to take a punt and suggest any sense of a Brexit dividend will crumble sooner rather than later. Remember all those jobs that were predicted would be lost because of Brexit? I'm starting to hear people saying they are being made redundant and I suspect it's just the beginning.

_________________
“Of all the trees we could've hit, we had to get one that hits back.”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 11:52 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
With respect,a turning point/realisation has been a recurrent theme;even if there is it is far from certain that people will turn to Labour,at least in the numbers required.I also don't think the tactic of equalising past Labour Government's as basically Tory and thus rewriting/ignoring history as to the many positive things (and consequent well-being etc) they did,is any way helpful


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 11:54 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
Europe was supposed to finish the Tories,it has as yet,emboldened them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 12:13 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 10457
Has thanked: 1045 times
Been thanked: 20475 times
At its absolute minimum, politics is about expressing your views about how society should be. You hold those views both because you believe they are right in themselves, and (of course, this is one reason for that) because you think they will benefit the most people.

You don't have to hold to the "no compromise with the electorate" mindset to want Labour offering something meaningfully different to the Tories.

Andy Beckett has another of his Graun pieces up, this time about how at least some centrists are - finally! - starting to adjust to the new realities. In actual fact I think the McGovern/Kendall piece he mentions was still a bit vacuous in proposing any solutions to the problems they identified, but that they are recognising those problems is at least a start. One thing the last GE did was consign the unrepentant uncompromising "everything that has happened since 2008 is just insane and bad" brand of centrism - personified by the likes of Leslie, Swinson and Umunna - to the well deserved and overdue dustbin. Even if Davey wins the LibDem leadership, change is likely there just as it is with Labour post-Corbyn.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 12:52 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
I don't disagree but FWIW I didn't see much of a recognition that-particularly in my areas of interest-at least at the forefront-that they were very good reasons as to why things needed to change/a sort of mythical past reconstruction .You don't have to fully accept the changes to acknowledge why they occurred.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 12:57 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
Eg State/local authority as provider in lieu of private can equally be non-independence enhancing/restrictive IE.exhibit the same characteristics as private provision which will not be removed by money alone.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 1:01 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 10457
Has thanked: 1045 times
Been thanked: 20475 times
Rosena Allin-Khan has made the Labour deputy leadership ballot.

The only hopeful in either contest still (some way) short is Thornberry, she has picked up a few CLP noms in the last 24 hours but its a race against time now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 1:39 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 6309
Has thanked: 11669 times
Been thanked: 14557 times
HindleA wrote:
With respect,a turning point/realisation has been a recurrent theme;even if there is it is far from certain that people will turn to Labour,at least in the numbers required.I also don't think the tactic of equalising past Labour Government's as basically Tory and thus rewriting/ignoring history as to the many positive things (and consequent well-being etc) they did,is any way helpful


I'm not really expecting any kind of "realisation" among those who support Brexit. I'm just saying that the reality of people's experience is strangely at odds with the mood the government is trying to promote. The Brexit supporters filmed at their celebrations on 31st January seemed quite dour compared to the enthusiasm recorded among Labour supporters in 1997.

_________________
“Of all the trees we could've hit, we had to get one that hits back.”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 2:05 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
Just to clarify my waffling post was in response to AK.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 2:19 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 10457
Has thanked: 1045 times
Been thanked: 20475 times
Jeremy Corbyn's own CLP of Islington North has just nominated Keir Starmer for leader.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 2:31 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 18397
Has thanked: 99235 times
Been thanked: 14562 times
Good afternoon, everyone.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 3:44 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 10457
Has thanked: 1045 times
Been thanked: 20475 times
If I can be allowed to make an observation, I think many of RLB's supporters are spending too little time positively promoting their candidate (and she has had some quite persuasive appearances recently) and rather too much trying to scare people with frankly unlikely stories about the horrors that would supposedly follow a Starmer win.

(for instance one prominent Corbynite basically said on Twitter recently "vote Starmer, get Iowa" - which is frankly ridiculous)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 4:31 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:18 pm
Posts: 7903
Has thanked: 8357 times
Been thanked: 12556 times
For me RLB appears to be essentially uninterested in small business support (or, perhaps more to the point, uninterested in supporting small businesses).

_________________
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 6:28 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 6309
Has thanked: 11669 times
Been thanked: 14557 times
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... eport-says

Quote:
Labour's canvassing strategy had 'major deficiencies', leaked report says
Opportunity to increase vote share in marginals was missed due to ineffective grassroots operation, analysis shows


Echoes some of what has been said here. Local efforts were patchy and not well supported centrally. With the implications this has for local elections, it's something that needs to be addressed quickly.

_________________
“Of all the trees we could've hit, we had to get one that hits back.”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 6:44 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
tinyclanger2 wrote:
For me RLB appears to be essentially uninterested in small business support (or, perhaps more to the point, uninterested in supporting small businesses).




https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/l ... ed-people/


Labour leadership: Long-Bailey promises policy partnership with disabled people


Personal budget/direct payment receivers can be employers in effect small business as. can those they employ.An interesting multi layered non binary ie boss/worker State/private Question is as to the priority/how to negotiate where the needs of the receiver collide ?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 7:21 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
How do you ensure the needs of the organisation don't equally restrict have pernicious effects,regardless of private or State provided.Sometimes the boss/worker relationship meet in mutual beneficial terms ,sometimes they clearly don't.It's where the "class war"stuff is not useful or even relevant.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 7:25 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
You can be a worker and boss.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 7:26 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
Oppressed and oppresser


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 7:26 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
Exploited and exploiter


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 7:27 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
The downtrodden and moustache twiddling cad.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 7:28 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 8:18 pm
Posts: 7903
Has thanked: 8357 times
Been thanked: 12556 times
Moreover, not all bosses - nor indeed business owners - are oppressors.

_________________
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 7:39 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
Indeed and workers can equally oppress/exploit /be shits /take the proverbial.As I've said before ye old DHSS was supportive to my better half during her health problems ,it was the supposed saintly fellow workers that caused her grief.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 7:42 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
In the real World people don't conform neatly according to a scripted ideology.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 7:43 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
"Moreover"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 7:46 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 10457
Has thanked: 1045 times
Been thanked: 20475 times
Getting windy here.......


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 8:32 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
For frog


https://fullfact.org/economy/boris-john ... al-credit/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 8:45 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
Has any team gone from top of the table at the start of the year and ended up relegated,just asking.It will be an achievement of sorts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 9:39 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 13100
Has thanked: 25195 times
Been thanked: 21642 times
Quote:
Revealed: how drugs giants can access your health records

Experts say information sold on by Department of Health and Social Care can be traced back to individual medical records

Asked if it was right to say that the patient data was anonymous, as claimed, Professor Eerke Boiten, director of the Cyber Technology Institute at De Montfort University in Leicester, said: “The answer is no, it is not anonymous.

“If it is rich medical data about individuals then the richer that data is, the easier it is for people who are experts to reconstruct it and re-identify individuals.”

Boiten believes more thought should be given to controlling and limiting the sale of data to prevent it potentially being sold on by the initial purchaser to companies with huge information stores and global reach. “If Google, for instance, were to use this data and end up finding a cure for cancer, and then sold the cure back to the NHS for huge sums of money, then I think we could say we had missed a trick,” he said. (Observer)


https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/feb/08/fears-over-sale-anonymous-nhs-patient-data


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 10:21 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 18397
Has thanked: 99235 times
Been thanked: 14562 times
Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 10:57 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 10457
Has thanked: 1045 times
Been thanked: 20475 times
HindleA wrote:
Has any team gone from top of the table at the start of the year and ended up relegated,just asking.It will be an achievement of sorts.


Millwall in the now Championship, 1995/96.

Well, you did ask......


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb, 2020 11:40 pm 
Offline
Chancellor

Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm
Posts: 1916
Has thanked: 5571 times
Been thanked: 2648 times
HindleA wrote:

One of the first things one learns in accounting/economics etc is GIGO : garbage in/garbage out, wall, here is an example of what comes out ... and I'm bloody suspicious of what assumptions went in :-)

Quote:
"" Key Findings (1)
£34 billion is total estimated economic value of Universal Credit (NPV) consisting of:
£19.3 billion from people choosing to work or work more
£8.7 billion from distribution of welfare payments
£7.5 billion from reduced fraud and error
£1.2 billion Net DEL costs
£ 8 billion – per year in steady state
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... se-summary



A system that encourages people into work/working more has to use a sliding scale of benefit reduction so that it's a no-brainer, which was the original IDS intention , subsequently tightened up and made meaner by Osborne IIRC . Any system aiming at that HAS to err on the side of 'generosity' which is the exact opposite of the way most UK politics and government works. When on unemployment -type benefit here I could work quite a lot, and didn't reach the magic figure where benefit reduced . Some long time ago, but I think I was allowed 68 hours a month.

We started off with the Johnson plucking figures out of thin air , I pray that doesn't last the full five fucking years .


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 10:21 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ur-leaders


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 10:23 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... t-too-late


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 10:40 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -coalition


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 10:50 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 13100
Has thanked: 25195 times
Been thanked: 21642 times
Andrew Rawnsley being contrary for the sake of it. As usual.





Edited - typo


Last edited by PorFavor on Sun 09 Feb, 2020 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 10:51 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 13100
Has thanked: 25195 times
Been thanked: 21642 times
Good morfternoon.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 11:25 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 10457
Has thanked: 1045 times
Been thanked: 20475 times
Lisa Nandy, can you stop bigging up often ineffective and sometimes corrupt Labour councils please?

They were a significant reason for the party's December losses.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 11:29 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 13100
Has thanked: 25195 times
Been thanked: 21642 times
I hope everyone's ok what with the weather an' all.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 11:39 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 8664
Has thanked: 4990 times
Been thanked: 19376 times
Morning all.

"Windy day umpire!" as WG would say when trying to convince the official that the bails were blown off rather than as a result of being bowled.

I decided against going swimming - I didn't fancy the car being attached by flying objects...

_________________
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 11:58 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 10457
Has thanked: 1045 times
Been thanked: 20475 times
Sinn Fein normally underperform their poll ratings in Irish elections. Already looking like that might not be the case this time.......


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 12:25 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ong-bailey


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 12:47 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 18397
Has thanked: 99235 times
Been thanked: 14562 times
PorFavor wrote:
I hope everyone's ok what with the weather an' all.

PorFavor & Constance patrol on board their stylish pontoon
Cocktail service provision in full operation
Hot water, honey, ginger with a splash of brandy here, please


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 12:47 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 18397
Has thanked: 99235 times
Been thanked: 14562 times
Good afternoon, everyone.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2020 1:00 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 27184
Location: Three quarters way to hell
Has thanked: 18807 times
Been thanked: 36666 times
Mixologist

PTO


Last edited by HindleA on Sun 09 Feb, 2020 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], refitman and 23 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group