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 Post subject: Tuesday 24th March 2020
PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 6:45 am 
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Morning all.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 7:49 am 
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refitman wrote:
Morning all.
Morning !
From PF's link last night --
Quote:
"Toby Harris, who has long campaigned for a UK alert system, said the British emergency messaging service had been a victim of inter-government squabbles and concerns over who would provide funding.
“It’s fallen between government departments as to who is going to pick up the bill, who’s going to lead on it, and all sorts of issues,” said Lord Harris, who highlighted the effectiveness of similar systems in Australia and Portugal for warning about risks from forest fires.
The Labour peer said the inability to inform the public of an impending risk to life was a major flaw in the government’s toolkit: “What is ridiculous is that you haven’t got the facility available.”


Squabbling over whose budget would pay for it ? I bet ! ****

Of course I'd heard the details of Macron's speech on Monday night, but it was followed by an SMS before dawn on Tuesday --
” Alerte Mardi 04.40 Le Président de la République a annoncé des règles strictes ……"etc
So I went to get my prescription, pinned on the doc's notice board in the empty waiting room , checked the chemists but it was a bit too full for me. They'd given me my stuff the day before, waiving the bit of paper so that's ok . May go to town purportedly to food-shop and see if it's empty, to regularise my prescription , but that's for another day. And the least of anyone's worries .
When the President ‘announces’ , the gendarmes soon follow, and since I hadn't yet printed out my Attestation I avoided all the full shops and scooted off home a tiny bit after noon.

2° this morning and not a cloud in the sky! Good piece by John Lichfield in this morning's (online) OuestFrance, he's also marooned somewhere in Normandy .

**** Perhaps that is why the UK government hasn't chartered a plane to bring back 300 Brits stranded in NZ, even tho some are NHS staff !


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 8:29 am 
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Maybe I missed the info before, but this podcast is, for me, LONG overdue !

Covid-19: how long can it survive outside the body?

Injunctions and exhortations from the likes of Macron and Johnson are all very well, but motivation is SO much stronger if people know exactly WHY they should wash hands etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/aud ... e-the-body

I find it annoying that there's no transcript or a brief article, to reduce the chitchat, and why TF don't they use an animation to get it over more efficiently ? They are good for the kids, AND we oldies !

I liked the swimming pool example " It depends what you do in the changing room" , as I covered that one a few days ago ...


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 8:32 am 
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Good morfternoon.

Quote:
Hinkley Point C work to carry on but HS2 could be paused

Major infrastructure projects highlight varying approaches to the coronavirus outbreak (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/24/coronavirus-hinkley-point-c-work-to-carry-on-as-hs2-could-pause


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 9:05 am 
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PorFavor wrote:
Good morfternoon.
Quote:
Hinkley Point C work to carry on but HS2 could be paused
Major infrastructure projects highlight varying approaches to the coronavirus outbreak (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/24/coronavirus-hinkley-point-c-work-to-carry-on-as-hs2-could-pause

Yeah, semi-lockdown, like being half-pregnant ;)
Quote:
Some of the 4,000-strong workforce at Hinkley, Britain’s biggest construction project, have raised concerns over an outbreak of coronavirus at the Somerset site after the government shut down restaurants, pubs and schools to contain the outbreak elsewhere.
Around 1,500 workers helping to build Britain’s first new nuclear plant in decades live in temporary shared accommodation, either on the site or nearby, returning to their homes across the country at the end of each rota pattern.
Here they requisitioned several hotels for health staff a while back, so that they protected their families, reduced risk all round . One hotel group offered them free, tho not all staff remained . Anecdote: female managers and cleaners etc more 'present' than males ! There's going to be some reckoning when all this is over . One car-hire firm in the east lent its stock to health workers to save them using public transport ...
(From my early-morning listen to FranceInter)


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 9:39 am 
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Going back to "herd immunity" strategy discussion, there was an interesting "ask me anything" on Reddit yesterday with a critical care doctor working in a UK high consequence infectious diseases centre: https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/fnl0n6/im_a_critical_care_doctor_working_in_a_uk_high/

It's another grimly fascinating read, mostly about government policy failure e.g.

Quote:
So, come 2020 and COVID-19 causes disaster in China, Iran and Italy. Epidemiologists and doctors from around the world observe, and learn valuable lessons:

the virus is insidious with a long incubation, any population actions you take will only have an effect weeks later
the virus spreads remarkably quickly and effectively
the virus causes an unusually large proportion of patients to require invasive ventilatory support
early large scale testing, and social distancing measures, are effective at stopping exponential growth
stopping exponential growth is VITAL to preventing your critical care systems from being overwhelmed.

Everyone in the world could see these things. But despite this, very few governments chose to act.

The UK did the opposite of acting. In an act of what I see as sheer arrogance, they chose to do nothing, per the early stages of their disaster plan. There was some initial contact tracing, but this stopped when it was clear that there was significant community spread and exponential growth. And after this? They did not ramp up testing capabilities. They did not encourage social distancing. They did not boost PPE supply, or plan for surge capacity. They ignored advice from the WHO, public health experts in other country; epidemiologists, scientists and doctors in their own. I can tell you with certainty now that they did not even collect regular statistics for how many COVID patients were being admitted to critical care in the UK. They did nothing.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 9:50 am 
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Morning all.

My son, who works for a financial services company in Wales got a text last night after the PM's address to the nation saying that they should still cone into work today...it said "the advice was clear that we can still travel to and from work"

What can you do with people like that?

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 10:10 am 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
Morning all.

My son, who works for a financial services company in Wales got a text last night after the PM's address to the nation saying that they should still cone into work today...it said "the advice was clear that we can still travel to and from work"

What can you do with people like that?


The advice is that those who can work from home, should work from home, which surely covers most office based work? I feel they are cherry picking the guidelines, somewhat.

Meanwhile my husband as a bus driver is an essential worker but the government have ordered all works canteens except in hospitals, schools and prisons to be closed. So he has to do a 10 hour shift today with nowhere to take a break or eat his lunch. He has not been happy about it. It doesn't really make sense. Surely he has the same need to eat as a doctor, nurse or teacher. Just more of our government's useless bungling, no doubt, not knowing how other people live and his bosses don't care as they all have their private offices to eat in.

What's the next step up from "omnishambles" ? Cos Boris is about three above that step currently....

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 10:56 am 
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James Plunkett
@jamestplunkett
A heartbreaking sign of our times. This is the livestream of people turning to
@CitizensAdvice
for help: https://bit.ly/2wB5hbJ The search terms speak for themselves. Our website is now nearing 400,000 hits a *day* - and the underlying stats are staggering. (1/n)

https://twitter.com/jamestplunkett/stat ... 8503343104

http://advicetracker.devops.citizensadvice.org.uk/

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 11:04 am 
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Germany

Quote:
Under the rescue measures, around 50 billion euros are to be earmarked for small businesses and self-employed workers, who are to receive direct grants of up to 15,000 euros over three months.

From the start of April until the end of June 2020, landlords in Germany will no longer be allowed to evict their tenants if they cannot pay their rents because of reasons related to the pandemic.

In further developments in Germany, the eastern state of Saxony has agreed to take in at least six Italian patients infected with the virus who cannot receive treatment in Italy. State premier Michael Kretschmer said on Monday hospitals in Dresden and Leipzig currently had enough capacity and its doctors could learn about treating the novel coronavirus.

Over the weekend the south-western states of Saarland and Baden-Württemberg also took in patients from the neighbouring Alsace region, one of France’s Corona hotspots.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 11:06 am 
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What's the next step down from a "cartoon villain"? Whatever it is, that's Mike Ashley.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 11:32 am 
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Very good.

Quote:
Max

@SpillerOfTea
50m50 minutes ago
More
50 Ways To Survive Coronavirus

Stay in your flat, Pat,
Don’t visit your nan, Stan,
Don’t buy all the bread, Ted,
Just listen to me,
Don’t hop on the bus, Gus,
Don’t hoard all the cous cous,
Leave some bogroll for me, Lee,
And maybe some brie.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 1:39 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
James Plunkett
@jamestplunkett
A heartbreaking sign of our times. This is the livestream of people turning to
@CitizensAdvice
for help: https://bit.ly/2wB5hbJ The search terms speak for themselves. Our website is now nearing 400,000 hits a *day* - and the underlying stats are staggering. (1/n)

https://twitter.com/jamestplunkett/stat ... 8503343104

http://advicetracker.devops.citizensadvice.org.uk/


Now needed more than ever, if only their financial assistance hadn't been cut back so much in the past decade eh?


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 2:11 pm 
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Wouldn't it be great if we didn't need the CAB, or foodbanks, or charity-funded hospices ...

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 2:14 pm 
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Something like the CAB will always be needed IMO. And its a terrific organisation despite its occasional flaws.

(am I biased - well yes, slightly)


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 2:14 pm 
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Sunak showing his true colours.

Quote:
The fact is that [the 5m group] that we’re dealing with contains such a wide variety of different people where we don’t have the ability to target support - that’s the challenge that we have in designing something that gets to the people that we want it to help whilst at the same time being affordable, not having to benefit absolutely everybody.



Just tax the people who don't need it a bit more, you dickhead.

Pardon my french.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 2:17 pm 
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We could certainly do without the need for the existence of foodbanks, but the reasons for the existence of the other two are probably more nuanced.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 2:19 pm 
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'Affordable'

:wall: :fire:


We're looking at a 20% drop in GDP and similar deficit and they're worried about some higher-earning self-employed peeps getting a billion or so they don't really need.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 2:22 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
We could certainly do without the need for the existence of foodbanks, but the reasons for the existence of the other two are probably more nuanced.

Well, re charity-funded hospices, my parents were among the founders of a local hospice in the 60s, all of whom genuinely believed that the NHS would take it over in due course.

The NHS does now fund the Macmillan nurses, but that's all.

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Last edited by gilsey on Tue 24 Mar, 2020 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 2:24 pm 
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As for the CAB, demand about 20-25% of what it is now might be about right.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 2:25 pm 
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I think I heard Dominic Raab getting his Perus and UKs mixed up. Nice to know that there are still some things that you can rely on.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 2:41 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
'Affordable'

:wall: :fire:


We're looking at a 20% drop in GDP and similar deficit and they're worried about some higher-earning self-employed peeps getting a billion or so they don't really need.


Centrists these days are even more hooked on means-testing than the right, if anything. Its one reason why I have so ran out of patience with them.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 2:46 pm 
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The answer's simple anyway.

Double UC, remove all the limits and deductions on HB and UC for unemployed and self-employed alike, scrap the 5-week wait. No conditionality. One existing system to deliver it.

Probably should say 2 systems, some areas still on legacy benefits.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 4:57 pm 
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Quote:
David Osland


@David__Osland
1h1 hour ago
More
Coronavirus has led some Labour MPs are return to their jobs as frontline NHS and social care workers. And to be fair to the Tories, some Conservative MPs are selflessly maintaining multiple non-executive directorships to help Britain through this time of crisis.


:D

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 5:21 pm 
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Good afternoon, everyone.
Excellent posts here today, all of them.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 5:56 pm 
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Quote:
Sadiq Khan’s office is saying Transport for London cannot run a full service on the tube because so many staff are absent. A spokesman for the mayor of London said:

This is simply not true. The mayor has told ministers countless times over recent days that TfL simply cannot safely run a full service because of the levels of staff sickness and self-isolation. Nearly a third of staff are already absent - there aren’t enough drivers and control staff to do it.

The government must act urgently to get more people staying at home rather than going to work unnecessarily - that means taking the difficult decisions they are refusing to take to ban non-essential construction work and provide proper financial support to freelancers, the self employed and those on zero hours contracts to stay at home.

A third of staff absent.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 6:36 pm 
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@gilsey

What's "simply not true", please?


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 7:32 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
@gilsey

What's "simply not true", please?
Quote:
Hancock implicitly blamed Sadiq Khan, the Labour mayor of London, for overcrowding on some London tube trains today. (See 10.52am for some video footage.) Asked about the problem, Hancock said:
Quote:
"When it comes to the tube, the first and the best answer is that Transport for London [which is run by Khan] should have the tube running in full so that people travelling on the tube are spaced out and can be further apart - obeying the two-metre rule wherever possible. And there is no good reason in the information that I’ve seen that the current levels of tube provision should be as low as they are. We should have more tube trains running."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... 201096ce66
Quote:
In response to what Matt Hancock was saying (see 5.46pm), Sadiq Khan’s office is saying Transport for London cannot run a full service on the tube because so many staff are absent. A spokesman for the mayor of London said:
Quote:
"This is simply not true. The mayor has told ministers countless times over recent days that TfL simply cannot safely run a full service because of the levels of staff sickness and self-isolation. Nearly a third of staff are already absent - there aren’t enough drivers and control staff to do it.

The government must act urgently to get more people staying at home rather than going to work unnecessarily - that means taking the difficult decisions they are refusing to take to ban non-essential construction work and provide proper financial support to freelancers, the self employed and those on zero hours contracts to stay at home."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... 5eda235f40


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 7:41 pm 
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Quote:
21 March 2020
Status of COVID-19
As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious diseases (HCID) in the UK.
The Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) is also of the opinion that COVID-19 should no longer be classified as an HCID.
The need to have a national, coordinated response remains, but this is being met by the government’s COVID-19 response.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-conseq ... eases-hcid
I came across this Is there something about the specific term, 'high consequence infectious diseases (HCID)' I don't understand? Does anyone know something about this?


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 7:52 pm 
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I don't understand it, either, but I found this at GOV.UK:

Definition of HCID

In the UK, a high consequence infectious disease (HCID) is defined according to the following criteria:

acute infectious disease
typically has a high case-fatality rate
may not have effective prophylaxis or treatment
often difficult to recognise and detect rapidly
ability to spread in the community and within healthcare settings
requires an enhanced individual, population and system response to ensure it is managed effectively, efficiently and safely

Classification of HCIDs

HCIDs are further divided into contact and airborne groups:

contact HCIDs are usually spread by direct contact with an infected patient or infected fluids, tissues and other materials, or by indirect contact with contaminated materials and fomites

airborne HCIDs are spread by respiratory droplets or aerosol transmission, in addition to contact routes of transmission

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid#definition-of-hcid


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 8:00 pm 
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Thank you, PorFavor.
I can understand certain criteria having to be met giving it a specific classification


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 8:00 pm 
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I was going to delete my post but you were too fast for me.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 8:40 pm 
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This would send some into an apoplectic rage...

'Covid coalition' government considered by senior Conservatives

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/covid-coalition-government-considered-by-senior-conservatives

Quote:
Senior Conservatives are questioning whether Boris Johnson will need a national unity government or emergency cross-party council to share responsibility for the coronavirus crisis if the situation worsens.

George Freeman, a former minister in Johnson’s government, was the first to break cover to say a “Covid coalition” government may be “unavoidable” and some other Tory MPs privately believe the prime minister will need cross-party governing consensus if emergency measures are to continue for months.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 8:42 pm 
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Ah, there's the reason...

Quote:
One Tory MP said there was a political argument that Johnson may be keen to “drag Labour in” so the public do not associate the crisis solely with the Conservatives, if the situation worsens.


It's the "But they did it too Miss!" line.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 8:44 pm 
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@RogerOThornhill

From your linked article:

Quote:
Freeman told the Guardian: “The scale of this national emergency – the suspension of usual freedoms and democracy, the economic consequences and the likely loss of tens of thousands of lives – demands a suspension of politics as usual.


Demands a Labour fall-guy, more like.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 8:46 pm 
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Ah - that's more like it! I was typing when you posted that.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 9:37 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
@RogerOThornhill

From your linked article:
Quote:
Freeman told the Guardian: “The scale of this national emergency – the suspension of usual freedoms and democracy, the economic consequences and the likely loss of tens of thousands of lives – demands a suspension of politics as usual.

Demands a Labour fall-guy, more like.
They'll have to do what they can to help, of course, the opposition parties, I mean. I'd like telling the government their piss-poor leadership means they need to get out of the way for better but I know now isn't the time for an election. Maybe the monarch can make a change.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 9:40 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
@RogerOThornhill

From your linked article:
Quote:
Freeman told the Guardian: “The scale of this national emergency – the suspension of usual freedoms and democracy, the economic consequences and the likely loss of tens of thousands of lives – demands a suspension of politics as usual.

Demands a Labour fall-guy, more like.
They'll have to do what they can to help, of course, the opposition parties, I mean. I'd like telling the government their piss-poor leadership means they need to get out of the way for better but I know now isn't the time for an election. Maybe the monarch can make a change.

The ERG-Tories ballsed it up so far, they OWN it .


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 9:41 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
@RogerOThornhill

From your linked article:
Quote:
Freeman told the Guardian: “The scale of this national emergency – the suspension of usual freedoms and democracy, the economic consequences and the likely loss of tens of thousands of lives – demands a suspension of politics as usual.

Demands a Labour fall-guy, more like.
They'll have to do what they can to help, of course, the opposition parties, I mean. I'd like telling the government their piss-poor leadership means they need to get out of the way for better but I know now isn't the time for an election. Maybe the monarch can make a change.


I suspect as well that they think they can provoke a labour row by trailing the idea that Starmer might be asked to join.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 9:44 pm 
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Quote:
How coronavirus advice from Boris Johnson has changed
From shaking hands to shaking a big stick – the PM’s stance on the contagion has evolved rapidly
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... as-changed
It's just 14 quotes from Johnson, all from the last month. I do encourage everyone taking a look at it.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 9:55 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
---
The ERG-Tories ballsed it up so far, they OWN it .
(cJA edit)
Of course. They don't take responsibility for themselves and aren't appropriate leaders. All that being so doesn't change others will have to provide what they can't or it's more suffering than already looks inevitable. Hopefully others in the House will be given a chance and provide needed direction. I doubt they'll get any thanks from government for doing so but I'll be grateful. I hope others will too and not blow their vote on more Johnsons in future.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 10:03 pm 
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adam wrote:
---
I suspect as well that they think they can provoke a labour row by trailing the idea that Starmer might be asked to join.
(cJA edit)
audience knows danger is imminent
Don't go looking for Norman Bates's mum in the big house alone or in the water without a big boat


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 11:08 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 11:19 pm 
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For fans of the freakish I recommend checking out tonight's Newsnight on IPlayer to see Iain Duncan Smith as a grotesque glowing alien.


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 11:31 pm 
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I'm just watching a returnee retired nurse explaining that she had to come back to work because she doesn't want to live in a society "where we all stay at home with our toilet rolls".


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PostPosted: Wed 25 Mar, 2020 12:32 am 
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Ashley Young with excellent advice from his experiences in Italy:

https://twitter.com/youngy18/status/1242531398826811393

Says it much more clearly than I can. Well played lad.


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PostPosted: Wed 25 Mar, 2020 1:11 am 
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This really happened.

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