Tuesday 21st April 2020

Post by **refitman** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 6:54 am

Morning all.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 9:03 am

Morning all.

I see that Polly Toynbee's article brought out the "sipping champange in her Tuscan villa" jibes that were on CiF everytime one of her articles were posted years back. And she's "hard left" although how right wing you have to be to consider her that I;m not sure.

But my favourite comment was this:

chriseshair4u@gmail.com
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@chriseshair4u
Follow Follow @chriseshair4u
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Boris Johnson is the wrong man in the wrong job at the wrong time | Polly Toynbee https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -Hypocrite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … pathetic women is the worst sort of or writer for guardian she hasn’t a clue.Boris is certainly the right man for the job he’s in bloody hospital you moron. Try doing better

11:49 PM - 20 Apr 2020

Good to see he keeps up with current events...

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 9:14 am

14°, a heatwave , again ! Week Five.

Nothing like a little Torygraph to start the day -- thanks to Blutgraesche at the LB

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... e-despite/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exclusive: Millions of pieces of PPE are being shipped from Britain to Europe despite NHS shortages

Last week five million surgical masks and more than a million respirators were packed on to EU-registered lorries by one UK wholesaler

By
Bill Gardner
21 April 2020 • 7:57am

Last week five million surgical masks and more than a million respirators were packed on to EU-registered lorries by one UK wholesaler

Millions of pieces of vital protective equipment are being shipped from British warehouses to Germany, Spain and Italy despite severe shortages in this country, The Telegraph can disclose.

Lorries are being packed with masks, respirators and other PPE kit before heading back to supply hospitals in the EU, it has emerged.

On Monday night, UK firms said they had “no choice” but to keep selling the lifesaving gear abroad because their offers of help had been repeatedly ignored by the Government.

It comes as the Government faces growing criticism over the PPE crisis with hospitals close to running out of critical equipment, and doctors forced to choose between exposing themselves to the virus or “letting a patient die on their watch”

NO kidding, I had to check it was the 21st of April and not the First .

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 9:19 am

Coronavirus: UK only formally asked Turkey for PPE shipment help on Sunday - after telling Britons it was on its way

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus- ... HEqN64nk3E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Robert Jenrick, the housing secretary, said at the daily Downing Street press briefing on Saturday that 84 tonnes of the gear, including 400,000 urgently needed clinical gowns, would arrive in the UK from Turkey the following day.

It failed to materialise, but no explanation for the delay was given.

In fact two sources have told Sky News that no formal request was made to the Turkish authorities - who were not supplying the shipment, but whose help was sought to get it to the UK - until Sunday.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 9:24 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Coronavirus: UK only formally asked Turkey for PPE shipment help on Sunday - after telling Britons it was on its way
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus- ... HEqN64nk3E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Robert Jenrick, the housing secretary, said at the daily Downing Street press briefing on Saturday that 84 tonnes of the gear, including 400,000 urgently needed clinical gowns, would arrive in the UK from Turkey the following day.
It failed to materialise, but no explanation for the delay was given.
In fact two sources have told Sky News that no formal request was made to the Turkish authorities - who were not supplying the shipment, but whose help was sought to get it to the UK - until Sunday.

Haha ! They didn't even need the RAF to requisition PPE about to be exported from UK warehouses , see above !

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 10:13 am

FFS we are truly governed by idiots.

Bob Hudson
@Bob__Hudson
Local Government Minister, Simon Clarke, on #r4today asked why 5000 Council employed Environmental Health Officers unused for tracing. Knew nothing about it he says, adding it's not his area of responsibility. Help!

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 10:15 am

ONS figures out today.

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AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 11:46 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

I see that Polly Toynbee's article brought out the "sipping champange in her Tuscan villa" jibes that were on CiF everytime one of her articles were posted years back. And she's "hard left" although how right wing you have to be to consider her that I;m not sure.

But my favourite comment was this:

chriseshair4u@gmail.com
‏
@chriseshair4u
Follow Follow @chriseshair4u
More
Boris Johnson is the wrong man in the wrong job at the wrong time | Polly Toynbee https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -Hypocrite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … pathetic women is the worst sort of or writer for guardian she hasn’t a clue.Boris is certainly the right man for the job he’s in bloody hospital you moron. Try doing better

11:49 PM - 20 Apr 2020

Good to see he keeps up with current events...

It sometimes takes time to re-program the bots, you know.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 12:13 pm

Good morfternoon.

On Saturday the government assured the public that a “major consignment” of PPE was on its way from Turkey, and was set to arrive on Sunday after growing criticism of a critical shortage for frontline workers.

But Sky News has since reported Turkish sources claiming that Britain only made a formal request to Turkey over a consignment of personal protective equipment on Sunday.

Now it seems that there is only a “slim possibility” that an already delayed order of personal protective equipment (PPE) from Turkey will arrive in the UK on Tuesday, reports my colleague Dan Sabbagh. He writes:

An RAF A400M Atlas transport plane is on the tarmac at Istanbul, but it is yet to start loading the 400,000 gowns and other vital equipment for the NHS and is not expected to do so until later on Tuesday at the earliest.

It was sent out on Monday night by the UK in a desperate attempt to put diplomatic pressure on Ankara, despite the fact that Turkey, which is centrally controlling PPE exports during the coronavirus crisis, had not cleared them for release. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Post by **adam** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 12:31 pm

To be fair, DHSC have been very busy creating fake twitter accounts, populating them with images of real health professionals, and tweeting in support of government policies.

Sorry, I just had to see what that looked like written down. 'What next for man raised by puffins?'

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 1:08 pm

adam wrote:To be fair, DHSC have been very busy creating fake twitter accounts, populating them with images of real health professionals, and tweeting in support of government policies.
Sorry, I just had to see what that looked like written down. 'What next for man raised by puffins?'

First of all they gave you Brexit.
Now it's invisible PPE gowns .

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 1:40 pm

adam wrote:To be fair, DHSC have been very busy creating fake twitter accounts, populating them with images of real health professionals, and tweeting in support of government policies.

Sorry, I just had to see what that looked like written down. 'What next for man raised by puffins?'

I mean, this one is disgraceful of course - but its also plain *weird*.

D*m*n*c *u*m*n*s in action?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 1:55 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
adam wrote:To be fair, DHSC have been very busy creating fake twitter accounts, populating them with images of real health professionals, and tweeting in support of government policies.

Sorry, I just had to see what that looked like written down. 'What next for man raised by puffins?'
I mean, this one is disgraceful of course - but its also plain *weird*.

D*m*n*c *u*m*n*s in action?

Surprisingly not likely, according to the investigations conducted. No10 have re-hired an Australian. Also, the updates regarding personal protection equipment (PPE) information here I've read today frighten me. Does anyone know what other enterprises, procurement ventures Matt Hancock and his spouse have going on? I hadn't. I've got to check those sources for accuracy. I think government's abysmal effort getting PPE to UK health and social care workers ominous.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 1:56 pm

Good afternoon, everyone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 2:15 pm

@frog222
A heat wave sounds very good to Mr citizen though our ancient kingdom of Mercia location on the hill is very fine these days.
Have you any objection with the honorific award of flythenest Continental Presence (fCP)? The duties are currently light but could become more arduous in future. You'll receive Mr citizen's Flapjack Recipe flapjacks, my washi tape & mandala artwork and plenty of the best mineral sunscreen anyone can source.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 2:19 pm

Breezy sunshine, dry, quiet and the air quality better than it's been for decades, I think.
It's still dusty as hell and I'm uncomfortable in it. I've tried many different vacuum cleaners. They all hate me and I them.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 2:27 pm

From the MP for Sefton Central.

Bill Esterson
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Verified account

@Bill_Esterson
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One of my constituents offered to make 10 million masks on 27 March and has never had a reply. I wrote to the government and also have not had a reply. This is putting lives at risk. It is shambolic. It needs to be fixed.

12:28 PM - 21 Apr 2020

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 2:32 pm

Interesting stuff, which confirms my suspicion that Johnson escaped more serious illness because of early intervention.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opin ... &smtyp=cur" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a way we could identify more patients who have Covid pneumonia sooner and treat them more effectively — and it would not require waiting for a coronavirus test at a hospital or doctor’s office. It requires detecting silent hypoxia early through a common medical device that can be purchased without a prescription at most pharmacies: a pulse oximeter.

Pulse oximetry is no more complicated than using a thermometer. These small devices turn on with one button and are placed on a fingertip. In a few seconds, two numbers are displayed: oxygen saturation and pulse rate. Pulse oximeters are extremely reliable in detecting oxygenation problems and elevated heart rates.

Pulse oximeters helped save the lives of two emergency physicians I know, alerting them early on to the need for treatment. When they noticed their oxygen levels declining, both went to the hospital and recovered (though one waited longer and required more treatment). Detection of hypoxia, early treatment and close monitoring apparently also worked for Boris Johnson, the British prime minister.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 3:12 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:From the MP for Sefton Central.

Bill Esterson
‏
Verified account

@Bill_Esterson
Follow Follow @Bill_Esterson
More
One of my constituents offered to make 10 million masks on 27 March and has never had a reply. I wrote to the government and also have not had a reply. This is putting lives at risk. It is shambolic. It needs to be fixed.

12:28 PM - 21 Apr 2020

Parliament may be resuming at an appropriate time......

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 3:18 pm

gilsey wrote:Interesting stuff, which confirms my suspicion that Johnson escaped more serious illness because of early intervention.
---

(cJA edit)
Appropriately funded and supplied clinics and surgeries universally available and operating within a society emphasising prophylactic healthcare provision halts the spread of contagious disease and reduces mortality rates.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 3:51 pm

gilsey wrote:ONS figures out today.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total deaths registered by place of occurrence between Week 11 (when first COVID-19 deaths were registered) and Week 15, the number of deaths in care homes has doubled by 2,456 deaths (99.4% increase); whilst we have seen a 72.4% increase (3,603 deaths) in hospitals, and 51.1% increase in private homes (1,392 deaths).
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 0april2020" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 4:32 pm

Staying out of EU ventilator scheme was 'political decision', not email error, says Foreign Office chief
Patrick Wintour

Patrick Wintour

UK ministers took a political decision not to be involved in an EU ventilator scheme, Sir Simon McDonald, the Foreign Office permanent under-secretary said today, so challenging previous claims that the UK did not take part due to missed emails.

McDonald was asked by a Labour MP, Chris Bryant, at the foreign affairs select committee whether the ventilator scheme was put to ministers. He said:

It was a political decision. The UK mission (UKREP) briefed ministers about what was available, what was on offer and the decision is known.

His remarks appear to blow a hole in the case originally made most prominently by the Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphases)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 4:49 pm

Philip Pullman: ministers should face charges if Brexit politics slowed PPE

Novelist says government should be ‘charged with conspiracy to murder’ if reluctance to work with the EU obstructed provision (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/ ... slowed-ppe

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 4:55 pm

I mean if that is actually true, its genuinely scandalous - and I'm sure lots who voted for Brexit would agree.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 6:12 pm

Bob Hudson
@Bob__Hudson
#DailyBriefing: It's Hancock's Half Hour. PPE - unprecedentedly complex issue, working very hard 24/7, 'very determined' etc. Vaccine: 'We'll throw everything we've got at it', backing our research centres 'to the hilt'. That's about it...

Did he really say it's unprecedentedly complex? That's up there with how much of our trade goes through Dover as a stupid thing to say. That one was Raab was it?

Supplying PPE to hospitals might be complicated but that's what we have NHS organisation and management structures and civil servants for ... oh.

Seriously, test & trace, vaccines and actually treating the patients might be up there with rocket science but supplying basic essentials not so much.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 6:16 pm

Sir Simon McDonald (Foreign Office bloke) is to issue a "clarification" (Sky TV news).

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 6:21 pm

@gilsey

At least someone's told him to stop saying "incredibly", though.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 6:22 pm

All-purpose tweet.

Jon Stone
@joncstone
there seems to be a split in government about what the best excuse to use is

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 6:56 pm

gilsey wrote:Interesting stuff, which confirms my suspicion that Johnson escaped more serious illness because of early intervention.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opin ... &smtyp=cur" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is a way we could identify more patients who have Covid pneumonia sooner and treat them more effectively — and it would not require waiting for a coronavirus test at a hospital or doctor’s office. It requires detecting silent hypoxia early through a common medical device that can be purchased without a prescription at most pharmacies: a pulse oximeter.
Pulse oximetry is no more complicated than using a thermometer. These small devices turn on with one button and are placed on a fingertip. In a few seconds, two numbers are displayed: oxygen saturation and pulse rate. Pulse oximeters are extremely reliable in detecting oxygenation problems and elevated heart rates.
Pulse oximeters helped save the lives of two emergency physicians I know, alerting them early on to the need for treatment. When they noticed their oxygen levels declining, both went to the hospital and recovered (though one waited longer and required more treatment). Detection of hypoxia, early treatment and close monitoring apparently also worked for Boris Johnson, the British prime minister.

We'll perhaps never know how ill Johnson was, but it's obvious that he was not extremely so at any bloody time, and the Fifty/fifty spiel was PURE bullshit. A precautionary visit only to ICU where the really serious cases were. Because he's PM !
I bought my first oximeter nearly ten years ago, $100 and it could record while I was asleep which was interesting to see the % spike down when my breathing stopped ... and surprised my GP. Always a wicked pleasure, that.

Unfortunately the software was crap and stopped working, so it's only good now for immediate readings. I bought another for $15 direct from China which is as accurate as my doc's . SO, if I do catch this evil thing I was already going to very closely monitor my O2 (before reading this article) saving a visit to the surgery or the pompiers coming here . At a certain level, to be agreed with my doc, I'd leave the cat's food outside for my neighbour and await the Taxi/ambulance /pompiers volontaires voyage to Saint Lô hospital .

There is already quite a body of A&E literature on the novelties of this one, in the space of days and a VERY few weeks !!!!

In Italy first (I think) it was noticed that early oxygenation , incl use of CPAP's, avoided intubation in many patients, which has been confirmed in the UK, so that apparently there has not been the expected crisis shortage of ventilators . ( Sending sick people back home or returning them to their care homes (the UK speciality ...) has also obviously eased the pressure in NHS hospitals . And conveniently reduced the number of reported deaths , of course. )

Intubation is a VERY horrible thing for all concerned according to my american relative who experienced three weeks of it (with dialysis) having caught H1N1 in 2009 . The patient has an easy Dream-time during it, but THEN has potentially months of rehab in his case, like learning to walk again, which I've also done . it is very labour-intensive for the staff, needing up to EIGHT people to turn a patient over ( to prevent oedemas I think? ) . When my dad had his bypass in the Radcliffe nearly 30 years ago now, and was in ICU, the Kiwi nurses asked me to GO AWAY while they turned him.

It very obviously was not a sight for the squeamish .

PS Anyone suspecting me of bias or unfairness or general ill-will towards our Dear Leader , as he struggled for his LIFE, may consult a couple of my posts at CiF ; i GIVE LINKS TOO

https://discussion.theguardian.com/comm ... /139912790" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The other one can wait HIC !

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 7:44 pm

Meanwhile, I'm shocked, shocked that a poll sponsored by the Adam Smith Institute came out in favour of tax cuts!

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citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 8:10 pm

PorFavor wrote:@gilsey

At least someone's told him to stop saying "incredibly", though.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 8:14 pm

@frog222
Interesting post

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 8:17 pm

My impression about the PM's illness was and is the opposite - he was very sick indeed and the official "sources" consistently downplayed this (at times almost stupidly so)

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 9:34 pm

No one would dispute that one can get very sick very fast if there's no early intervention.

Johnson was potentially very sick indeed, was my impression.

I'm not trying to minimise his illness at all, just wondering how many others could be saved by such early treatment.

People are told to stay at home if they have symptoms, there's no monitoring, and from all accounts you have to be at death's door before they'll send an ambulance to you, by which time it may be too late anyway. NHS111 call handlers are making those decisions in some cases.

There are full page govt ads in the papers saying, if you still have symptoms after 7 days, stay at home. That could be a death sentence.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 9:40 pm

I was already going to very closely monitor my O2

You do right.

from the article

when Covid pneumonia first strikes, patients don’t feel short of breath, even as their oxygen levels fall. And by the time they do, they have alarmingly low oxygen levels

Someone I know slightly responded on twitter to another article making this point a few days ago, they said they'd been trekking in the Himalayas at altitude and one day their O2 had fallen to 70%, they'd walked 10k and ascended god knows how many thousand feet that day!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 9:44 pm

gilsey wrote:No one would dispute that one can get very sick very fast if there's no early intervention.

Johnson was potentially very sick indeed, was my impression.

I'm not trying to minimise his illness at all, just wondering how many others could be saved by such early treatment.

People are told to stay at home if they have symptoms, there's no monitoring, and from all accounts you have to be at death's door before they'll send an ambulance to you, by which time it may be too late anyway. NHS111 call handlers are making those decisions in some cases.

There are full page govt ads in the papers saying, if you still have symptoms after 7 days, stay at home. That could be a death sentence.

Probably the most important thing I've read today.
Apart from PorFavor's contributions, of course.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 10:21 pm

That is fair comment, the truth will no doubt emerge in due course. Hopefully whilst we are still able to appreciate it!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 10:23 pm

Has there been any news on the Turkey shipment ('planement)?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 11:02 pm

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 21 Apr, 2020 11:04 pm

citizenJA wrote:Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

Night night.