Saturday 25th & Sunday 26th April 2020

Post by **refitman** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 7:45 am

Morning all.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 10:11 am

Good morning, everyone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 10:14 am

another gorgeous day

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 10:32 am

Good morning all, I see the Kim Jong Un rumours are continuing?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 10:41 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Good morning all, I see the Kim Jong Un rumours are continuing?

China has sent a team to North Korea including medical experts to check on Kim Jong-un, according to three people familiar with the situation.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... lth-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Checking on him is nice.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 10:58 am

I missed this article when it first came out. Adds context to the recent revelation that Dominic Cummings was actively involved in SAGE meetings:

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/03/the- ... ntic-idea/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Herd Immunity Infected UK Policy
But Who Was Patient Zero for this Toxic Transatlantic Idea?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 11:10 am

Morning all.

Re the Guardian story about Cummings and a Leave campaign data chap I find myself on the same side as David Davis which is an odd feeling.

David Davis
‏
Verified account

@DavidDavisMP
36m36 minutes ago
More
We should publish the membership of SAGE: remove any non-scientist members: publish their advice in full: and publish dissenting opinions with the advice.

Right now we have:

"Trust the science and scientists!"
"Agree with that. So who are they?
"Not telling"

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 11:42 am

First Piers Morgan, now David Davis, truly the world has changed.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 11:55 am

The publication of minutes of SAGE meetings is probably the only way to fully understand the relationship between independent scientific advice and political influence.

The bit that is being overlooked a tad is the fact that SAGE convenes to respond to specific questions and requests for input put to them by the government. What the government asks is as relevant here as what the scientists answer and may be at the heart of the very significant difference in approach to the 2009 swine flu epidemic, which resulted in uber caution and over-prepreparedness, and the situation now where complacency and under-preparedness have dominated.

If a scientist honestly answers the question, "if we do this, what would happen" or "how can we achieve this outcome" who is leading who?

If it is the case the government asked "how can we best minimise the overall number of deaths" and the answer given was "don't order extra PPE until the last minute, ask non-medical manufacturers to invent new ventilators rather than place orders with existing makers, do the opposite of what the WHO says on testing and contract tracing, actively encourage people to travel around the country to attend large gatherings, don't close schools until they've already been forced to shut through lack of staff and generally delay lockdown for as long as possible" then, sure, the scientists, rather than the government, are completely responsible for our current situation.

If it is the case, however, that the scientists were asked "how many extra deaths could be avoided by doing a,b & c" and political decisions that also weighed up the economic impacts were then taken by people in government who didn't understand the maths of exponential growth and the true implications of the numbers they were bandying around like so much confetti then I would suggest the UK's coronavirus disaster is very much a political failure and underlines the benefit of having a chemist in charge rather than a self-serving, second rate hack.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 12:07 pm

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 12:10 pm

I'm sure everyone's noticed that the right-wingers agitating for lockdown to end to minimise economic damage* are the exact same people who respond to any suggestion that Brexit would be economically damaging with 'Project Fear'.

*which it wouldn't anyway

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 12:16 pm

This may be the only time I'll link to Alastair Campbell.

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Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 12:45 pm

One particular feature of Johnson's approach has been a reliance on the behavourial science that suggested people would tire of lockdown which supposedly led to the decision to delay it as long as possible. Yet the scientific input doesn't directly lead to this particular political decision at all. It seems to me that Macron almost certainly was furnished with similar evidence and responded very differently by pursuing a detailed and well resourced system of enforcement of an early lockdown to counteract the public's natural wearyng of voluntary isolation.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 12:56 pm

gilsey wrote:This may be the only time I'll link to Alastair Campbell.

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I have to say, he has been quite good throughout this crisis.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 4:34 pm

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Ian Dunt
@IanDunt
Fascinating disconnect between people's perceptions of the UK from inside and outside. Inside, the coverage is mostly serious but calm. And yet anyone I know following coverage of the UK from outside is frightened and outraged by what has happened.
3:34 PM · Apr 25, 2020·

There has definitely been a change of tone from the way the UK media were reporting the ongoing situation in Italy with the tone taken to report our own unfolding disaster, that's for sure. They should be ashamed of their placid complacency in the face of such unprecedented and tragic events. So many missed opportunities and poor decisions by government, shrugged off as inevitable or unavoidable.

Meanwhile, cocooned away in our separate abodes, the British public are as yet unable to make judgements for themselves about the extent of the situation, divorced as we are from the necessary information to make such judgements. Shortly after lockdown we noticed a neighbouring house was no longer occupied. As yet we don't know the story behind the empty windows and can only guess. Perhaps they moved in with other family for the duration, perhaps they couldn't afford the rent, or perhaps they were affected by the virus more directly. The truth is we just don't know and that's the problem. So much of the impact of this pandemic is hidden beneath the surface and beneath the numbers and we just don't know.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 5:01 pm

UK hospital deaths over 20,000 - but yeah, the government is doing a great job

(though their ratings are slowly dropping, maybe the truth is still gradually getting out there)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 6:07 pm

I never knew - until inadvertently discovering it now - that there is such a thing as a Scrabble special interest break (as in holiday)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 9:42 pm

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

Post by **adam** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 10:46 pm

I think one of the things that make Cummings and Warner's involvement with SAGE so wrong, whatever that involvement is, is that they do have a clear area of expertise, and that area of expertise is getting people to support what the government want to do regardless of expert evidence.

Post by **adam** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 10:52 pm

Long quote, no apologies. Cuomo's speech today - his dad would be proud of him.

It’s been 56 long days, Generations are called upon to deal with high levels of difficulty. We are called upon to deal with this crisis. Day 56. The 1918 pandemic went on for two years. We’re in day 56. World War I went on for four years. The Great Depression went on for four years. You want to talk about economic anxiety? You want to talk about people losing homes, not being able to feed themselves, people living in camps, people living in cars. World War II, six years. Vietnam War – that intensity, every night, every night to have to hear about the tragedies – went on for eight years.

“I get 56 days is a long time, and I get it’s the worst thing that we have experienced in modern history. I get that. But just a little perspective – not that it makes our situation any better, but it gives you a sense of perspective: Yes, in life, things happen. On an individual level and on a societal level. Things happen and you have to deal with it and it’s hard. But on the other hand it makes us who we are, you get shaped by your experiences. This is a terrible experience to go through. But we will manage it, we will handle it and will be the better for it.

“Fifty-six days, all this inconvenience. Think of it this way: what you’re doing is actually saving lives. That’s not rhetorical, that’s not overly dramatic. You are saving lives. What we have done has saved lives. Every expert, every expert – CDC, White House task force, Cornell University, Columbia University, McKinsey, that group that Bill Gates funded – every one of them projected that there would be at least 100,000 more serious infections in state of New York. One hundred thousand more serious infections, more hospitalizations. What happened? We did what we had to do, which was hard and is hard. Well, what did we accomplish? One hundred thousand fewer serious infections. That’s what’s 56 days of our relative living through hell has accomplished. And that is a hell of an accomplishment. So yes, it’s not for naught: 100,000 fewer infections.

“Life is better than death, even if it is not your own.”

Post by **adam** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 10:55 pm

Mario Cuomo's keynote speech to the 1984 Democratic Convention

[youtube]XCJCcDqFGQU[/youtube]

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 11:12 pm

Adam -- I was just watching this before bed , an adult journalist and an adult politician, making a change from the cheap stuff served up specially in Engerland --

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[youtube]jyOnfK_UMV4[/youtube]

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 11:19 pm

@adam

I think I'll have to emigrate to watch that.

I can take a hint . . .

Post by **adam** » Sat 25 Apr, 2020 11:23 pm

PorFavor wrote:@adam

I think I'll have to emigrate to watch that.

I can take a hint . . .

The one Frog posted is not visible here, but Mario's speech is (or is to me anyway, should be fine).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 11:27 am

Good morning all, 12 hours is long enough I thought

Johnson "returning to work" this coming week, we are told......

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 12:33 pm

The Toby Young Laughathlon continues ... p95 1/2

""The Spectator’s Toby Young concluded, as Downing Street aides reportedly did at first, that the cost of lockdown, prolonging “the lives of a few hundred thousand mostly elderly people is an irresponsible use of taxpayers’ money”. He was entitled to say so, Young pointed out, since he himself had the virus: “My death would be acceptable collateral damage.”

Happily, there’s no way of assessing this offer, since Young is still with us and his wife thinks he was never infected. “He is a complete hypochondriac at the best of times,” she writes, “and this pandemic has sent his anxiety levels through the roof.” ""

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ne-bennett" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

21° , and the last fine day for a while, cooler and rainy from tomorrow !

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 2:17 pm

Good afternoon, everyone.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 2:49 pm

citizenJA wrote:Good afternoon, everyone.

Hello cJA

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, time soon for a small siesta after listening to Mark Mardell pointing out that the 'official figures' did not actually include care and home deaths ... , plus he attempted to get something going on """ the science""" !

Bryan Cox "If you hear a politician say "they're following the science" it means that they don't know what science is ""

1.07.00 to 1.07.30 ( he begins on home&online teaching at 1.02.25 )

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[youtube]JgA3GOG-4as[/youtube]

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 3:15 pm

I love the smell of nepotism and corruption in the afternoon.

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/stat ... 9135151104

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 3:27 pm

Behavioural Insights -- a profitable business ! ( Snakeoil may be deadly for innocent bystanders ...)

"" It’s less extraordinary, though, when you understand that the Behavioural Insights Team is a multimillion-pound profitable company, which pays Halpern, who owns 7.5% of its shares, a bigger salary than the prime minister. Here lies the potential conflict of interest: someone who contributes to Sage also has a significant financial incentive to sell his wares. It perhaps explains BIT’s bombastic claims – “it’s no longer a matter of supposition… we can now say with a high degree of confidence these models give you best policy,” Halpern claimed in 2018. And: “We make much of the simplicity of our interventions… but if properly implemented, they can have a powerful impact on even our biggest societal challenges.”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... oronavirus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 3:33 pm

Cox is good when he sticks to scientific stuff, credit where it is due.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 8:56 pm

HELLO!...Hello...hello...hello...hello.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 9:00 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:HELLO!...Hello...hello...hello...hello.

hello

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 9:08 pm

One thing this virus has really screwed up are 'experience gifts'. I got my dad a glider flight for Christmas (which he actually wanted) and that's been cancelled until further notice and my brother got him a meal at a fancy restaurant in Edinburgh run by some Masterchef person and that obviously has also been cancelled. So one lesson to take from all this is buy people real stuff as presents from now on. I knew I should have got him that nice jumper.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 9:21 pm

WE have between us already checked out that basically CraigMurray is truthful , and a reliable witness . Unlike the rest of us he read through the 800 or whatever it was of pages on the leaked Labor Party report on the "AS Crisis" , and I found his conclusions eminently believable . Some idiots fell over backwards to see AS when I honestly could imagine none whatsoever ;
it's a MEME, no it isn't , it's a bloody TROPE !

Reading the 'Press', it must have appeared very odd indeed that after his 'jury' trial , Alex Salmond was not led away in chains to begin a long sentence INSIDE ?

Being fortunate enough to live in a tumbledown cottage which I own, my outgoings are small, so even with a tiny pension I can contribute occasionally to GOOD CAUSES .

I've already sent £50 to BeautifulBurnout , a ten year old and personal friend from UT , and from we met in Britanny ,

https://twitter.com/0Calamity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And now Craig is asking for help . We go back a good fifteen years, when he leaked those FCO torture memos online . In those days none of us knew if GCHQ couldn't 'wipe' our computer memories , so I still have printouts of JackStraw's FCO written denials of knowledge of torture , /cough >

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... -launched/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My dear barrister friend Jane Heybroek was looking for trouble when she retweeted ..........................but when you look at her accusers / adversaries MY GOD! they are an unsavory crowd !

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 9:22 pm

frog222 wrote:The Toby Young Laughathlon continues ... p95 1/2

""The Spectator’s Toby Young concluded, as Downing Street aides reportedly did at first, that the cost of lockdown, prolonging “the lives of a few hundred thousand mostly elderly people is an irresponsible use of taxpayers’ money”. He was entitled to say so, Young pointed out, since he himself had the virus: “My death would be acceptable collateral damage.”

Happily, there’s no way of assessing this offer, since Young is still with us and his wife thinks he was never infected. “He is a complete hypochondriac at the best of times,” she writes, “and this pandemic has sent his anxiety levels through the roof.” ""
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ne-bennett" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

21° , and the last fine day for a while, cooler and rainy from tomorrow !

I followed the link in article about Toby Young to Spectator:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/spe ... -with-them" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'Spectator writers in lockdown by the people stuck with them'

Not sure who they all are, or how true, but worth a read,
says Toby Young tried hydroxychloroquine??

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 10:12 pm

Hey Froggy, I simply don't know enough about the Jane Heybroek case yet to contribute but I just bunged Craig Murray £20 because it seems pretty clear to me this is an act of petty revenge from people abusing their power. He's made members of the Scottish civil service, judiciary and police force look like complete twats and they're not happy about it. I may not always agree with what Craig Murray has to say but in this case the evidence he supplied was incontrovertible. The claims that he prejucided a jury and identified witnesses is laughable to anyone who followed Salmond's case in the Scottish press. If Murray is guilty of either then so are numerous journalists who did a lot worse. This is nothing more than vexatious bullying litigation from parts of a pissed off Scottish (Unionist) establishment and if I had more money to spare I'd give it just to see their faces when they're laughed out of court again.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 10:25 pm

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 10:35 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:HELLO!...Hello...hello...hello...hello.

Hello to you too, it has been noted some regulars seem to be missing this weekend.......

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 11:20 pm

So is everyone ready for Johnson's rise from the nearly dead tomorrow?

And all the sickening sycophantic guff that will inevitably accompany his miraculous resurrection?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 11:37 pm

As long as his lifting (or partial lifting) of the lock-down doesn't include a gift to the nation of a PR austerity wedding (his own). After all, the Royals are proving to be a bit of a busted flush at present.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 11:42 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Hello to you too, it has been noted some regulars seem to be missing this weekend.......

I must confess to a certain feeling of lethargy and ennui myself. It's so tempting to give in.

But no. don't do it.

Don't become a lotus eater pottering about listlessly.

Trust me, I've talked to numerous psychiatrists and therapists and while most of them were idiots they did all agree on one single thing and that was that isolation is bad for our mental health.

And I concur.

It's easy and initially rewarding to slip into your own headspace. Calming and relaxing in fact. But give it a while and you'll be screaming for escape.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 11:45 pm

[youtube]DCvePCwdr_A[/youtube]

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 11:47 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:Hey Froggy, I simply don't know enough about the Jane Heybroek case yet to contribute but I just bunged Craig Murray £20 because it seems pretty clear to me this is an act of petty revenge from people abusing their power. He's made members of the Scottish civil service, judiciary and police force look like complete twats and they're not happy about it. I may not always agree with what Craig Murray has to say but in this case the evidence he supplied was incontrovertible. The claims that he prejucided a jury and identified witnesses is laughable to anyone who followed Salmond's case in the Scottish press. If Murray is guilty of either then so are numerous journalists who did a lot worse. This is nothing more than vexatious bullying litigation from parts of a pissed off Scottish (Unionist) establishment and if I had more money to spare I'd give it just to see their faces when they're laughed out of court again.

Well done , my friend . You judged it right .
My dear friend Jane alias beautifulburnout at Cif and once at UT HAS indulged herself in too much RETWEETING , and has since been carefully selected as PREY for a legal case by the very nastiest elements of what perhaps might be called the most extreme zionist elements of uk jewry.. I'll send off some more $$s to her too, because hers also is a test case to see what the motherfuckers can get away with , so she' is there for the rest of us too .

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 11:48 pm

I must have spent about a month trying to remember the name of that band then when cooking today it just popped into my head unbidden.

My brain is really annoying.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 27 Apr, 2020 12:02 am

frog222 wrote:Well done , my friend . You judged it right .
My dear friend Jane alias beautifulburnout at Cif and once at UT HAS indulged herself in too much RETWEETING , and has since been carefully selected as PREY for a legal case by the very nastiest elements of what perhaps might be called the most extreme zionist elements of uk jewry.. I'll send off some more $$s to her too, because hers also is a test case to see what the motherfuckers can get away with , so she' is there for the rest of us too .

I'll have a look but I saw some of the shit Rachel Riley was having to put up with. And while I agree most of the anti-semitism accusations against Corbyn et al were were entirely politicaly motivated I have met people on the left who were enthusiastic Jew haters so as I said I'll have to look into it. As it stands it doesn't seem your friend there is guilty of anything besides retweeting something which UK courts have already said isn't an offence.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 27 Apr, 2020 12:11 am

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:
frog222 wrote:Well done , my friend . You judged it right .
My dear friend Jane alias beautifulburnout at Cif and once at UT HAS indulged herself in too much RETWEETING , and has since been carefully selected as PREY for a legal case by the very nastiest elements of what perhaps might be called the most extreme zionist elements of uk jewry.. I'll send off some more $$s to her too, because hers also is a test case to see what the motherfuckers can get away with , so she' is there for the rest of us too .
I'll have a look but I saw some of the shit Rachel Riley was having to put up with. And while I agree most of the anti-semitism accusations against Corbyn et al were were entirely politicaly motivated I have met people on the left who were enthusiastic Jew haters so as I said I'll have to look into it. As it stands it doesn't seem your friend there is guilty of anything besides retweeting something which UK courts have already said isn't an offence.

I hope you're right SKY .
Despite that, it looks as tho it will cost her !

all the best xx

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 27 Apr, 2020 12:28 am

Vexacious litigation, it's what the rich do.

Here in Leeds BrewDog bankrupted a guy trying to open a pub with 'Punk' in the name claiming they owned the word 'Punk'.

They knew they'd lose eventually but not before financially ruining the guy.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 27 Apr, 2020 12:33 am

[youtube]GJY8jJkDoMY[/youtube]

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 27 Apr, 2020 12:37 am

[youtube]qeMFqkcPYcg[/youtube]