Saturday 11th and Sunday 12th October 2014

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 3:16 pm

@ ErnstRemarx -

Yep, further confirmation we've got a lot of work to do together.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 3:18 pm

Temulkar wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Is there some reason why "the Greens" can't work from within the Labour party?
Off the top of my head,

Renationalisation of energy, utilities, transport, health, education and policing/prison services
Higher corporate tax rates.
Land value tax
rebanding of Council Tax.
HS2
Trident
Foriegn Policy
Electoral reform
WCA/ATOS/UNUM
Trade Unionism.

And that's without even going into labour's lacklustre approach to to enviromental issues. What you should really be asking yourself is whose policies represent your views.

I understand the policies differ, but I'm asking why the Greens insist on negotiating this from outside, thus - as the SDP before them - splitting the somewhat leftish vote. It's about being pragmatic - and good negotiators. I see the greens as no better than the SNP in this respect (if the SNP really have, as they claim, been reborn as socialists*).

*Edited (PF-stylee) to add: Or rather social democrats
Edited again

to add two commas.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 3:31 pm

PS - my position is not personal. It's a manifestation of the frustration I feel about the left doing the right's work by splitting itself up. I've mentioned it before - and it comes from different but related first hand experience (environmental movement) - so nothing new. Sorry to bring it up really, but it irks me so.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 3:33 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:Is there some reason why "the Greens" can't work from within the Labour party?
Off the top of my head,

Renationalisation of energy, utilities, transport, health, education and policing/prison services
Higher corporate tax rates.
Land value tax
rebanding of Council Tax.
HS2
Trident
Foriegn Policy
Electoral reform
WCA/ATOS/UNUM
Trade Unionism.

And that's without even going into labour's lacklustre approach to to enviromental issues. What you should really be asking yourself is whose policies represent your views.
I understand the policies differ, but I'm asking why the Greens insist on negotiating this from outside, thus - as the SDP before them - splitting the somewhat leftish vote. It's about being pragmatic - and good negotiators. I see the greens as no better than the SNP in this respect (if the SNP really have as they claim been reborn as socialists*).

*Edited (PF-stylee) to add: Or rather social democrats

Because Labour do not support any of the above policies. I am Old labour, CND, ex LPYS. There is absolutely no possibility of the Labour Party representing my views again. I doubt the Danczuk's of the party even realise that it was once mainstream Labour, not miltant. However, those of us with such a "dinosaur" approach were actively encouraged to leave the party, were we not Ernst?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 3:37 pm

Temulkar wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Off the top of my head,

Renationalisation of energy, utilities, transport, health, education and policing/prison services
Higher corporate tax rates.
Land value tax
rebanding of Council Tax.
HS2
Trident
Foriegn Policy
Electoral reform
WCA/ATOS/UNUM
Trade Unionism.

And that's without even going into labour's lacklustre approach to to enviromental issues. What you should really be asking yourself is whose policies represent your views.
I understand the policies differ, but I'm asking why the Greens insist on negotiating this from outside, thus - as the SDP before them - splitting the somewhat leftish vote. It's about being pragmatic - and good negotiators. I see the greens as no better than the SNP in this respect (if the SNP really have as they claim been reborn as socialists*).

*Edited (PF-stylee) to add: Or rather social democrats
Because Labour do not support any of the above policies. I am Old labour, CND, ex LPYS. There is absolutely no possibility of the Labour Party representing my views again. I doubt the Danczuk's of the party even realise that it was once mainstream Labour, not miltant. However, those of us with such a "dinosaur" approach were actively encouraged to leave the party, were we not Ernst?

The role of people with good ideas is to convince people with different ideas, not to split off into smaller groups of people who agree with them. Otherwise what's the point?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 3:44 pm

Politics, democratically elected political representatives isn't a game of sport.
We must cooperate with each other in a functional, positive way.
I'm a Labour party member & supporter.
I don't agree with every Labour policy.
It's my work to make my disagreement known, explain why & make the party better or not.
I've great respect for the Green party.
The Labour & Green party are allies.
Our current voting arrangements are unfortunately less than ideal - we don't have a proportional representation system.
Nonetheless, I can't ask anyone to vote against their conscience.
The environmental challenges we're facing globally aren't fringe issues.
We require leadership now.
Everyone's skills, ideas & cooperative effort are necessary at all times - we've got a wonderful opportunity here to be our own heroes.

Permaculture

https://www.permaculture.org.uk/

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 3:46 pm

Let me put it another way. I think Labour have a long way to go before I think they're up to much really. But in the face of a potential Tory/UKIP coalition I think a bit of pragmatism (and thus not splitting of the vote) from the non-right might be sensible to buy ourselves some time. Then we need to sort out Labour from within to return it to its original function and encourage a greener approach. ~~Starting with private car ownership and then moving ALL bikes OFF pavements.~~

Oops. Sorry about that last bit. Slipped out.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 3:51 pm

@ Temulkar -

There is absolutely no possibility of the Labour Party representing my views again.

Labour can represent some of your views. Politics isn't perfect, we're human.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 3:55 pm

Temulkar wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Off the top of my head,

Renationalisation of energy, utilities, transport, health, education and policing/prison services
Higher corporate tax rates.
Land value tax
rebanding of Council Tax.
HS2
Trident
Foriegn Policy
Electoral reform
WCA/ATOS/UNUM
Trade Unionism.

And that's without even going into labour's lacklustre approach to to enviromental issues. What you should really be asking yourself is whose policies represent your views.
I understand the policies differ, but I'm asking why the Greens insist on negotiating this from outside, thus - as the SDP before them - splitting the somewhat leftish vote. It's about being pragmatic - and good negotiators. I see the greens as no better than the SNP in this respect (if the SNP really have as they claim been reborn as socialists*).

*Edited (PF-stylee) to add: Or rather social democrats
Because Labour do not support any of the above policies. I am Old labour, CND, ex LPYS. There is absolutely no possibility of the Labour Party representing my views again. I doubt the Danczuk's of the party even realise that it was once mainstream Labour, not miltant. However, those of us with such a "dinosaur" approach were actively encouraged to leave the party, were we not Ernst?

Indeed Tem. It seems to me that the only way I can change Labour policy is to be active from within, although I understand your viewpoint and why you gave up. I will not. Labour didn't become a tepid centrist party by accident, and anyone with a brain and a pulse knows where the problem lies, and it's not with the "dinosaurs" such as you and I.

The irony is that the "dinosaur" tag is far better suited to the Blairite undead and New Labour wonks who still have clout in the party. Their Labour party is one of a despairing crawl to the right, privatise, triangulate, show themselves 'open for business' and in many respects resemble the Tories. I despise them with every fibre of my body, and will continue to work to ensure that their malign influence is expunged from the party in any way I can.

That period of Labour history is just that (or should be): history. It did its job in 97 and should have been pensioned off forthwith. The only reason that UKIP could cut into the Labour vote is because those same triangulators jettisoned too much of what was in the interests of ordinary people in favour of appealing to a centrist swing voter whose first last and only interest is their own comfort and predilections.

If Ed Miliband makes into No. 10 (and even now it's beginning to look questionable), then the best and boldest move he could make would be to fuck the Blairites and Progress groupies off forever, and ensure that parliamentary selection procedure was amended to so that all the wonks and SpAds took very much second place to local activists, trade unionists and people who've worked in ordinary jobs in the everyday world. In other words, to ensure that the next generation of Labour hopefuls looks just like the people they represent.

Of course, the 'red Ed' hyperbole would go into overdrive in the meeja - implement Leveson *in full* and pass a law that no-one who isn't a UK passport holder could own a meeja business, and certainly not multiples thereof. If they want a war, nuke them.

On a lighter note, I've just started the ironing, so it may be a little while before I get back on here.

And thanks Tem for not taking my anti (local) Greens rant personally. I suspect we have much more in common than denoted by our party allegiances. So mwah, mwah.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 3:56 pm

@Tinyclanger -

~~Starting with private car ownership and then moving ALL bikes OFF pavements.~~Get the cars off the pavement. Seriously. I look out my window here & that's what pavements are being used for - car park areas. People using mobility assistance chairs & parents with prams & walkers are out of luck. The speed limit isn't enforced in our neighbourhood. Depressing.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:01 pm

@ ErnstRemarx -

I suspect we have much more in common than denoted by our party allegiances.

Me too. It's usually the case. Most of us have far more in common than we have differences. A few really don't like the idea of people really believing that. They do very well out of highlighting differences.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:02 pm

Wow, it's just started hailing, really hard here.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:05 pm

refitman wrote:Wow, it's just started hailing, really hard here.

Lucky. I love watching a good hail storm. Especially when no one's out in it & the inside is warm.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:13 pm

Temulkar

I am not wanting to get into an argument with you as I think we probably have many things in common.

I would also say I have very little issue with how the Green Party positions itself nationally and I think Caroline Lucas all the best in staying in Parliament for the future

As a scientist, I also think our focus should be on the post-carbon era; how to generate energy in a susatainable way. In my own area, agriculture, I see a part to play for GM, organic, chemical, biological et etc - the important thing is that it works and its benefits and risks are well-assessed and understood. I think Governments should play a more active role in this and not just let the corporate world decide things

However my face to face expperience with Green Party grass roots members is not always so positive. Demanding proof that something can never happen (which can never be given), that all chemicals are inherently evil (which is ridiculous) and the only option for us was to go back to a pre-industrial age as it was 'so much better then'. The danger of focusing on the hazard rather than the risk is something that never seems to be taken onboard. If we all looked only at hazard then we would never do anything. I am against the precautionary approach as I think it is inherently flawed but I fear it is the way we are going and will actually prevent us doing some of the things we should be doing to make the future more sustainable.

I do not know if they are representative of the membership but I have met too many who think like that to be confident of giving them my vote.

If you are more representative then, as I said, things might change

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:20 pm

For the record, if we had proportional representation, I would certainly consider voting green. But old "I agree with kingmaker Nick B'stard" put paid to that quite unequivocally didn't he.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:22 pm

Patients turned away after GP surgeries are all shut on the same day

http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/ ... -same-day/

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:25 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote: I understand the policies differ, but I'm asking why the Greens insist on negotiating this from outside, thus - as the SDP before them - splitting the somewhat leftish vote. It's about being pragmatic - and good negotiators. I see the greens as no better than the SNP in this respect (if the SNP really have as they claim been reborn as socialists*).

*Edited (PF-stylee) to add: Or rather social democrats
Because Labour do not support any of the above policies. I am Old labour, CND, ex LPYS. There is absolutely no possibility of the Labour Party representing my views again. I doubt the Danczuk's of the party even realise that it was once mainstream Labour, not miltant. However, those of us with such a "dinosaur" approach were actively encouraged to leave the party, were we not Ernst?
The role of people with good ideas is to convince people with different ideas, not to split off into smaller groups of people who agree with them. Otherwise what's the point?

You don't seem to get that the Labour party had these arguments twenty years ago.The party decided their direction of travel and actively told those of us who did not like it, to leave. Fair enough, we lost the argument; Labour wanted Blairism. But after kicking us out you cant also complain we are splitters.

If Labour does not represent your views with their policies why vote for them? If all it is is a fear of the tory party, then the tory party have already won. Rather than trying to convince the unconvinceable of a different direction, why not simply support the party whose policies most closely match your views?

This site is very tribal labour, but I really don't think half of you realise just how right wing labour has become. Let me remind you, in this Parliament, under your sainted Ed, they voted in retrospective legislation penalising the very poorest and most vulnerable. They rejected the founding principle of the movement: A fair days pay for a fair days work. Everything the coalition has done was enabled by the policies of a Labour government.

That is not a party I can support or vote for, because that is a party of corporate interest, not common good. So, why are you voting for corporate interests? Fear of the tories? Maybe you should have a think about that.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:27 pm

I get that all people have these arguments all the time. It's exhausting, but it's necessary. I'm an idealistic pragmatist. What can I say.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:29 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I get that all people have these arguments all the time. It's exhausting, but it's necessary. I'm an idealistic pragmatist. What can I say.

Or perhaps a pragmatic idealist. Either way I can think about things and still be strategically inclined.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:33 pm

Let me put it like this so people understand my direction of travel. I left the Labour party in 94 and disengaged from politics. for sixteen years I barely voted, but came out in 2010 because the prospect of Cameron was awful and re-engaged. I then spent two years praying that Labour would offer me something, anything that would entice me to rejoin them. The day after the retrospective legislation was passed, I joined the Greens.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:34 pm

On a lighter note, I see that Beverley/Noggin/Gnu's posts have been excised from the other place in truly Stalinist fashion......

The mods really have it in for them for some reason, don't they??

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 4:44 pm

Couple of HS2 development- to the plans, still a distinct possibility it won't happen at all. I support it but no reason the start can't be put back a couple of years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 60087.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Crewe to be a major interchange station- as it already is for conventional rail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crewe_railway_station" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bit hard on Stoke though that wanted a station too.

Not so sure about this though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29538362" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

East Midlands station being moved from Toton where the Nottingham Tram would meet it to somewhere called Breaston, where it won't meet any public transport.

One of the reasons the costs rise to big schemes is that all sorts of other schemes get momentum and the big scheme gets expanded. Its better to spend more and bring benefits to more places. Sheffield should get a city centre station, even if headline cost of scheme goes up. (Now it has an out of town station).

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 5:27 pm

Temulkar wrote:Let me put it like this so people understand my direction of travel. I left the Labour party in 94 and disengaged from politics. for sixteen years I barely voted, but came out in 2010 because the prospect of Cameron was awful and re-engaged. I then spent two years praying that Labour would offer me something, anything that would entice me to rejoin them. The day after the retrospective legislation was passed, I joined the Greens.

That particular piece of legislation was a shit idea, and I really don't understand why Miliband didn't order a three liner against it. It's hardly walking into any sort of trap to say out loud that people shouldn't be compelled to work for their benefits in shit businesses that simply rub their hands with glee and rid themselves of workers already doing the job to prepare themselves for an endless stream of desperate, demotivated, pissed off job seekers.

Having said that, I stand by my previous post. I can only stop shit like that happen if I have my say from within. I am not 'tribal'. My parents were/are (one's dead) staunch Tories, as were/are everyone else in my blood family. I learnt my politics; I didn't inherit them.

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 5:50 pm

Paul Nuttal off of the UKIPs on Any Questions simultaneously called for a minimum health requirement whilst claiming that Spain wouldn't send our people back because they're "pensioners" What kind of health check would an 80 year old retiree have to pass to return to the UK or would we have permanent right to return?

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 5:52 pm

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB · 3m3 minutes ago
LAB moves to 7% lead with Opinium for Observer
Lab 35 (+1)
Con 28 (-4)
Ukip 17 (n/c)
LDs 9 (+2)
GRN 4.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 5:53 pm

LibDem surge again

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 5:54 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
Temulkar wrote:Let me put it like this so people understand my direction of travel. I left the Labour party in 94 and disengaged from politics. for sixteen years I barely voted, but came out in 2010 because the prospect of Cameron was awful and re-engaged. I then spent two years praying that Labour would offer me something, anything that would entice me to rejoin them. The day after the retrospective legislation was passed, I joined the Greens.
That particular piece of legislation was a shit idea, and I really don't understand why Miliband didn't order a three liner against it. It's hardly walking into any sort of trap to say out loud that people shouldn't be compelled to work for their benefits in shit businesses that simply rub their hands with glee and rid themselves of workers already doing the job to prepare themselves for an endless stream of desperate, demotivated, pissed off job seekers.

Having said that, I stand by my previous post. I can only stop shit like that happen if I have my say from within. I am not 'tribal'. My parents were/are (one's dead) staunch Tories, as were/are everyone else in my blood family. I learnt my politics; I didn't inherit them.

This might not make me very popular, but can I add that until very recently the majority of working class people and -sorry - Labour voters too - were protesting about benefit scroungers and the disabled and demanding something was done?
It was appalling to hear the venom which is still there but has now been directed to immigrants.
It wasn't until George Smiths 'solution' started to hurt the wrong people that they began to wake up. And they haven't done that really because look at the rise of UKIP.

At the time it seemed to me that the outcry if Ed had gone against the flow would have finished him before he'd begun.
And now I'm damned sure it would have.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 5:57 pm

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 8m8 minutes ago
LAB moves to 7% lead with Opinium for Observer
Lab 35 (+1)
Con 28 (-4)
Ukip 17 (n/c)
LDs 9 (+2)
GRN 4.
Expand

Bloody disastrous for Labour ..... etc, etc, etc

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 5:59 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:
Temulkar wrote:Let me put it like this so people understand my direction of travel. I left the Labour party in 94 and disengaged from politics. for sixteen years I barely voted, but came out in 2010 because the prospect of Cameron was awful and re-engaged. I then spent two years praying that Labour would offer me something, anything that would entice me to rejoin them. The day after the retrospective legislation was passed, I joined the Greens.
That particular piece of legislation was a shit idea, and I really don't understand why Miliband didn't order a three liner against it. It's hardly walking into any sort of trap to say out loud that people shouldn't be compelled to work for their benefits in shit businesses that simply rub their hands with glee and rid themselves of workers already doing the job to prepare themselves for an endless stream of desperate, demotivated, pissed off job seekers.

Having said that, I stand by my previous post. I can only stop shit like that happen if I have my say from within. I am not 'tribal'. My parents were/are (one's dead) staunch Tories, as were/are everyone else in my blood family. I learnt my politics; I didn't inherit them.
This might not make me very popular, but can I add that until very recently the majority of working class people and -sorry - Labour voters too - were protesting about benefit scroungers and the disabled and demanding something was done?
It was appalling to hear the venom which is still there but has now been directed to immigrants.
It wasn't until George Smiths 'solution' started to hurt the wrong people that they began to wake up. And they haven't done that really because look at the rise of UKIP.

At the time it seemed to me that the outcry if Ed had gone against the flow would have finished him before he'd begun.
And now I'm damned sure it would have.

It's been a lazy meeja that's constantly shitted on about how much social security costs the UK that this stupid state of affairs has arisen. They tell people that the social security bill is £xBn, and people gasp. Tell them that JSA is about 2-3% of that and that fraud is about 0.05% and that's a rather different narrative. I fucking hate the meeja in the UK.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 6:03 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB · 3m3 minutes ago
LAB moves to 7% lead with Opinium for Observer
Lab 35 (+1)
Con 28 (-4)
Ukip 17 (n/c)
LDs 9 (+2)
GRN 4.

I just hope that bloody Crosby's banging his head in despair...Serves them right.

And look at UKIP shooting up in the poll...NOT.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 6:09 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote: That particular piece of legislation was a shit idea, and I really don't understand why Miliband didn't order a three liner against it. It's hardly walking into any sort of trap to say out loud that people shouldn't be compelled to work for their benefits in shit businesses that simply rub their hands with glee and rid themselves of workers already doing the job to prepare themselves for an endless stream of desperate, demotivated, pissed off job seekers.

Having said that, I stand by my previous post. I can only stop shit like that happen if I have my say from within. I am not 'tribal'. My parents were/are (one's dead) staunch Tories, as were/are everyone else in my blood family. I learnt my politics; I didn't inherit them.
This might not make me very popular, but can I add that until very recently the majority of working class people and -sorry - Labour voters too - were protesting about benefit scroungers and the disabled and demanding something was done?
It was appalling to hear the venom which is still there but has now been directed to immigrants.
It wasn't until George Smiths 'solution' started to hurt the wrong people that they began to wake up. And they haven't done that really because look at the rise of UKIP.

At the time it seemed to me that the outcry if Ed had gone against the flow would have finished him before he'd begun.
And now I'm damned sure it would have.
It's been a lazy meeja that's constantly shitted on about how much social security costs the UK that this stupid state of affairs has arisen. They tell people that the social security bill is £xBn, and people gasp. Tell them that JSA is about 2-3% of that and that fraud is about 0.05% and that's a rather different narrative. I fucking hate the meeja in the UK.

I'm just waiting for the interviewer that really holds a UKIP representative to the coals re their policies and tactics .... probes as repeatedly and intensely as they do with Labour reps ... do you think I'll be waiting a very long time? Emily Maitliss 'chairing' a discussion between Owen Jones and Jon O'Gaunt on Newsnight yesterday was soooo bad - surprised Owen Jones got a word in. She completely destroyed any last shred of respect for her or the premise behind the interview when she tapped John O'Gaunt on the knee in a playful admonition at the end as if to say 'Oooo you are naughty but' .... it was toe-curlingly awful.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 6:12 pm

Channel 4 News ‏@Channel4News 7m7 minutes ago
Brooks Newmark, the Conservative MP who quit over an internet sex scandal, will stand down from Parliament at the general election. #c4news

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 6:18 pm

For me, the Green policy on nuclear is a redline and an indication of quixotic idealism without scientific basis, although I understand its under discussion as its still better than cracking. I voted for them in the Euros, because a Europe-wide approach might actually make a difference policy wise but until the Greens realise that you can't fund a country from bring and buy organic jam sales, I don't see them as credible. Nice, but not credible, like the Lib Dems used to be.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 6:51 pm

First off Old Labour had sod all to do with the perversion and electoral stupidity (as well as real world stupidity) that was CND. It is not a shock than when Kinnock finally booted that policy out Labour finally started to look like a real contender again.

Other than that I don't necessarily disagree with that many Green Party policies. They are what Labour would be if they didn't have to worry about getting elected. However they do, and let us not forget however left wing they are the absolute ambition of the Green Party in 2015 is to win one seat ( and they may not even manage that).

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 6:54 pm

God. I not only feel old. I am old.

Comparing how dentistry is today with how it was when I was younger.
You had a toothache. Big decision. Were you going to get if filled but without benefit of a numbing injection or wait until you couldn't bear it any longer and have it pulled.
You're in the dentists chair. No X rays and if I remember correctly not gloved up, he'd rap the tooth, say is that the one? What do you want me to do?
Hating the drill because by God it hurt when he hit the nerve, you'd say pull it.
He'd come at you with a huge glass and metal syringe. Wait five minutes, get a pair of pliers, grip the tooth, twist it backwards and forwards a couple of times till you could hear it break loose and then tug it out. Spit and rinse and off you'd go.
If you were lucky you were out of there in fifteen minutes.
Nowadays there is so much faffing about it's unbelievable. No wonder it costs so much.

I think I prefer the old days.

Edited because I can't spell.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:02 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:First off Old Labour had sod all to do with the perversion and electoral stupidity (as well as real world stupidity) that was CND. It is not a shock than when Kinnock finally booted that policy out Labour finally started to look like a real contender again.

Other than that I don't necessarily disagree with that many Green Party policies. They are what Labour would be if they didn't have to worry about getting elected. However they do, and let us not forget however left wing they are the absolute ambition of the Green Party in 2015 is to win one seat ( and they may not even manage that).

The "Soviet threat" wasn't completely implausible (though no need at all for the UK to duplicate other people's nukes). Kinnock managed to re-commit to them just as the Soviet threat was falling away. Pretty unfortunate bit of timing.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:02 pm

Goodnight, everyone.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:04 pm

PorFavor wrote:Goodnight, everyone.

Night PF

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:04 pm

ohsocynical wrote:God. I not only feel old. I am old.

Comparing how dentistry is today with how it was when I was younger.
You had a toothache. Big decision. Were you going to get if filled but without benefit of a numbing injection or wait until you couldn't bear it any longer and have it pulled.
You're in the dentists chair. No X rays and if I remember correctly not gloved up, he'd rap the tooth, say is that the one? What do you want me to do?
Hating the drill because by God it hurt when he hit the nerve, you'd say pull it.
He'd come at you with a huge glass and metal syringe. Wait five minutes, get a pair of pliers, grip the tooth, twist it backwards and forwards a couple of time till you could hear it break loose and then tug it out. Spit and rinse and off you'd go.
If you were lucky you were out of there in fifteen minutes.
Nowadays there is so much faffing about it's unbelievable. No wonder it costs so much.

I think I prefer the old days.

Is that the pain talking Ohso? I was hoping you'd be feeling a bit better by now. Did you get any relief from the suggestions for home remedies from FTNers?

Any work on teeth is pretty traumatic in my book - hacking and banging away at the jaw and all those nerves. I'm one of those who will put up with lots of little niggly things going on with my teeth rather than opt for treatment because I know the aftermath of supposedly simple stuff is often far more than I had bargained for.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:09 pm

@Ernst:

It's been a lazy meeja that's constantly shitted on about how much social security costs the UK that this stupid state of affairs has arisen. They tell people that the social security bill is £xBn, and people gasp. Tell them that JSA is about 2-3% of that and that fraud is about 0.05% and that's a rather different narrative. I fucking hate the meeja in the UK.

Agree, but there is a lot of nasty people out there too. I don't think I want them to vote for, or come back to Labour. They poison everything they touch.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:25 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:God. I not only feel old. I am old.

Comparing how dentistry is today with how it was when I was younger.
You had a toothache. Big decision. Were you going to get if filled but without benefit of a numbing injection or wait until you couldn't bear it any longer and have it pulled.
You're in the dentists chair. No X rays and if I remember correctly not gloved up, he'd rap the tooth, say is that the one? What do you want me to do?
Hating the drill because by God it hurt when he hit the nerve, you'd say pull it.
He'd come at you with a huge glass and metal syringe. Wait five minutes, get a pair of pliers, grip the tooth, twist it backwards and forwards a couple of time till you could hear it break loose and then tug it out. Spit and rinse and off you'd go.
If you were lucky you were out of there in fifteen minutes.
Nowadays there is so much faffing about it's unbelievable. No wonder it costs so much.

I think I prefer the old days.
Is that the pain talking Ohso? I was hoping you'd be feeling a bit better by now. Did you get any relief from the suggestions for home remedies from FTNers?

Any work on teeth is pretty traumatic in my book - hacking and banging away at the jaw and all those nerves. I'm one of those who will put up with lots of little niggly things going on with my teeth rather than opt for treatment because I know the aftermath of supposedly simple stuff is often far more than I had bargained for.

I've still got pain, but I really do prefer the no fancy or faffing around treatment.
My approach is I need something unpleasant doing so get it over with as quickly as possible. Don't explain and talk about it or do stuff I haven't asked for or need. Just bloody do it. Whatever it takes. I won't make a fuss.
This is the first time I've had discomfort after an extraction and I have extremely long, thick roots so it's always a bit of a tussle, although I had developed septicaemia, [very quick] this time which made my neck and jaw incredibly swollen and painful. Tonsils had trapped some of it, so they're a bit icky still. I couldn't get a same day appointment, so the extra 24 hour wait didn't help.
Thankfully on the mend but wondering what's next!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:31 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:
Temulkar wrote:Let me put it like this so people understand my direction of travel. I left the Labour party in 94 and disengaged from politics. for sixteen years I barely voted, but came out in 2010 because the prospect of Cameron was awful and re-engaged. I then spent two years praying that Labour would offer me something, anything that would entice me to rejoin them. The day after the retrospective legislation was passed, I joined the Greens.
That particular piece of legislation was a shit idea, and I really don't understand why Miliband didn't order a three liner against it. It's hardly walking into any sort of trap to say out loud that people shouldn't be compelled to work for their benefits in shit businesses that simply rub their hands with glee and rid themselves of workers already doing the job to prepare themselves for an endless stream of desperate, demotivated, pissed off job seekers.

Having said that, I stand by my previous post. I can only stop shit like that happen if I have my say from within. I am not 'tribal'. My parents were/are (one's dead) staunch Tories, as were/are everyone else in my blood family. I learnt my politics; I didn't inherit them.
This might not make me very popular, but can I add that until very recently the majority of working class people and -sorry - Labour voters too - were protesting about benefit scroungers and the disabled and demanding something was done?
It was appalling to hear the venom which is still there but has now been directed to immigrants.
It wasn't until George Smiths 'solution' started to hurt the wrong people that they began to wake up. And they haven't done that really because look at the rise of UKIP.

At the time it seemed to me that the outcry if Ed had gone against the flow would have finished him before he'd begun.
And now I'm damned sure it would have.

It is to Labour's eternal shame that it relentlessly propagandised the view of the Tories putting millions on the sick that werent;an obvious consequence is the view that there must be widespread fraud.The myth became reality and leads inexorably to a guilty until proven innocent attitude,and a disabled (well she probably isn't)women being denied the basic courtesy and having to relieve herself in a jobcentre.Labour were far harder on benefit claimants than anything previously.Only because the bedroom tax was becoming unpopular and they thought they could gain possible advantage did it decide belatedly to come to an opposing view.I happen to be a member of Labour but have no illusions.DLA was introduced by the Tories,Keith Joseph was,a cosponsor behind the introduction of the precursor of Carers AllowanceLabour are as guilty ,if not more of breaking a hard won consensus.I see the present Government as merely continuing a dishonourable tradition.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:33 pm

joncraigSKY ‏@joncraig 42m42 minutes ago
I hear "past episodes in my personal life" Brooks Newmark refers to in letter to PM re quitting as MP will be revealed in Sun on Sunday

Do we really need to know any more?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:39 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
joncraigSKY ‏@joncraig 42m42 minutes ago
I hear "past episodes in my personal life" Brooks Newmark refers to in letter to PM re quitting as MP will be revealed in Sun on Sunday
Do we really need to know any more?

Thomas the Tank Engine pyjamas?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:40 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:First off Old Labour had sod all to do with the perversion and electoral stupidity (as well as real world stupidity) that was CND. It is not a shock than when Kinnock finally booted that policy out Labour finally started to look like a real contender again.

Other than that I don't necessarily disagree with that many Green Party policies. They are what Labour would be if they didn't have to worry about getting elected. However they do, and let us not forget however left wing they are the absolute ambition of the Green Party in 2015 is to win one seat ( and they may not even manage that).
The "Soviet threat" wasn't completely implausible (though no need at all for the UK to duplicate other people's nukes). Kinnock managed to re-commit to them just as the Soviet threat was falling away. Pretty unfortunate bit of timing.

Kinnock got rid of that albatross after the 87 election. He had just had enough defending stupidity. I am aware of only one nation that has voluntarily given up nukes - Ukraine.

How is that working out for them?

Nuclear weapons are as relevant as a deterrent now as they were in the Cold War, the enemy has changed. We are safe only as long as we have nothing somebody else wants, sadly if our approach to climate change management continues I can see lots of resource crunch points that could create new enemies.

There is an argument to be had as to whether Trident or something cheaper is an option. However Trident has the benefit of being invulnerable to a first strike. I prefer large weapons of mass destruction that give people thinking time before launch.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:41 pm

HindleA wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote: That particular piece of legislation was a shit idea, and I really don't understand why Miliband didn't order a three liner against it. It's hardly walking into any sort of trap to say out loud that people shouldn't be compelled to work for their benefits in shit businesses that simply rub their hands with glee and rid themselves of workers already doing the job to prepare themselves for an endless stream of desperate, demotivated, pissed off job seekers.

Having said that, I stand by my previous post. I can only stop shit like that happen if I have my say from within. I am not 'tribal'. My parents were/are (one's dead) staunch Tories, as were/are everyone else in my blood family. I learnt my politics; I didn't inherit them.
This might not make me very popular, but can I add that until very recently the majority of working class people and -sorry - Labour voters too - were protesting about benefit scroungers and the disabled and demanding something was done?
It was appalling to hear the venom which is still there but has now been directed to immigrants.
It wasn't until George Smiths 'solution' started to hurt the wrong people that they began to wake up. And they haven't done that really because look at the rise of UKIP.

At the time it seemed to me that the outcry if Ed had gone against the flow would have finished him before he'd begun.
And now I'm damned sure it would have.

It is to Labour's eternal shame that it relentlessly propagandised the view of the Tories putting millions on the sick that werent;an obvious consequence is the view that there must be widespread fraud.The myth became reality and leads inexorably to a guilty until proven innocent attitude,and a disabled (well she probably isn't)women being denied the basic courtesy and having to relieve herself in a jobcentre.Labour were far harder on benefit claimants than anything previously.Only because the bedroom tax was becoming unpopular and they thought they could gain possible advantage did it decide belatedly to come to an opposing view.I happen to be a member of Labour but have no illusions.DLA was introduced by the Tories,Keith Joseph was,a cosponsor behind the introduction of the precursor of Carers AllowanceLabour are as guilty ,if not more of breaking a hard won consensus.I see the present Government as merely continuing a dishonourable tradition.

I don't agree Labour would have launched a bedroom tax, but everything else above is sadly true.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:44 pm

Bloody hell.

Poll reported by G shock.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... s-election

But still BNfEM

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:45 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
joncraigSKY ‏@joncraig 42m42 minutes ago
I hear "past episodes in my personal life" Brooks Newmark refers to in letter to PM re quitting as MP will be revealed in Sun on Sunday
Do we really need to know any more?

Hopefully it'll just be about what colour pyjamas he wears.

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 7:58 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Bloody hell.

Poll reported by G shock.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... s-election

But still BNfEM

Despite giving Labour a 7pt lead, more people now expect the Conservatives to win the next election than Labour

Yes, because of the media narrative you helped create and people believe the media.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 11 Oct, 2014 8:13 pm

In Alan Clarks diaries he writes: [my words] Stuck in my office fiddling the unemployment figures. Instead of pushing the ill and disabled back into work why can't we expand the job market for the fit. The extra tax would pay for those who can't work or help themselves.
He was a true blue heartless Tory, and even he could see what was happening and how counter productive it was.

I remember that one of the fiddles was if someone in their fifties or older was made redundant the chance of them finding a job was very slim, so they went on the sick until they were able to claim their pension.
And I might be wrong [because it was never really broadcast what they were doing], if a man in his sixties lost their job, they were retired and given their pension earlier. I don't know if the same applied to women because of their earlier retirement age. It was always men that seemed to be quoted as an example of what was happening.

The stupid thing is that most of the people that were written off in that way are either dead or legally retired. And it has been hard for a long time to get yourself put on long term sick.
My son had early stage bowel cancer whilst he worked for local government and there is no other word for it, he was hassled to return to work before the doctors considered him fit enough.
From where I've been standing all these years, being on the sick [that's what we call it] or on the dole was never an option. It was a misery trying to claim it, you were made to feel guilty, and you couldn't live on it when you did get it.