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 Post subject: Tuesday 30th June 2020
PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 5:44 am 
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Morning all.


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 6:51 am 
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No iplayer here, but this looks good ---

Fishgirl23 11m ago


If you missed it, here is your chance to see last night's Panorama. The damning expose on what went wrong with our "World Beating" test, track and trace. Yes, that which advocated by Johnson and Hancock and each step of the way they failed, failed and failed. With each failure and twist and turn, more deaths occured:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... gone-wrong

Quote:
1. Thousands of test and trace callers failed to find a SINGLE contact of a coronavirus patient, investigation reveals. World Beating.

2. No medical staff at any test centre. In Germany, medical staff is a requirement. World Beating.

3. People testing without PPE. World Beating.

4. 25,000 private tracing recruits found only 15,000 contacts while 870 NHS staff found. 98,000. World Beating.

5. £1.7bn wasted on the private sector when this could have been given to NHS to save lives. World Beating.

6. GPs failed to receive test results for thier patients. World Beating.

7. Health professionals declare the uselessness of the outsourced test and trace service. World Beating.

8. Johnson stated that no country in the world has a functioning Test Trace and Track system in place. Oh really? Germany. World Beating.

9. In excess of 60,000 avoidable deaths. World Beating indeed.

10. 331 Tory MPs voted against weekly testing of NHS and care staff. Panorama found cross infections taking place with care staff unknowingly carrying the virus and spreading. Jeremy Hunt advocated testing and then voted against testing NHS staff. World Beating.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/polit ... aff/25/06/

Lockdown coming to a place near you soon.""


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 8:28 am 
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Morning all.

Lots of people pointing out that this £5bn is a drop in the ocean compared to what we normally spend and comparisons to FDR's New Deal are laughable.

https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/ ... 2911569922

I just looked up the OBR's databank and this year's gross capital investment is...£112bn.

Interesting that Gove also referenced FDR in his speech last week - what's that all about?

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 8:44 am 
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From the G liveblog yesterday:

Quote:
Parents in England who fail to send their children back to school in September will face fines unless they have a good reason for them not attending, Gavin Williamson, the education secretary, has said.
The work and pensions secretary, Thérèse Coffey, has indicated benefit sanctions will be reintroduced this week as UK jobcentres start to reopen after lockdown, saying it is “important” claimant rules are reinstated.


Rather than win people's trust by reducing the spread with effective testing and tracing, the government appears to have opted to simply bully them back to work.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 9:17 am 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
what's that all about?

Words.

May's 'burning injustices' = Johnson's 'levelling up'

Anything they actually do will almost certainly be destructive.
Anything constructive is just words.

£5bn = taking the piss.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 9:20 am 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
Morning all.
Lots of people pointing out that this £5bn is a drop in the ocean compared to what we normally spend and comparisons to FDR's New Deal are laughable.
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/ ... 2911569922
I just looked up the OBR's databank and this year's gross capital investment is...£112bn.
Interesting that Gove also referenced FDR in his speech last week - what's that all about?

Perhaps associating their small selves with great historical figures is part of of their strategy for wheedling themselves into the unconscious of the great British public, as in the negative sense of identifying lefties with Stalin and the antichrist Marx ? ( In the US the welfare states of Europe are portrayed as 'socialistic nightmares' by the new US UltraRight.)
I liked this in the thread--
Quote:
George Eaton @georgeeaton
By comparison, FDR’s New Deal represented *40% of GDP* (Johnson’s is 0.2%).


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 9:21 am 
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Jacinda's having none of it, anyway.

Jacinda Ardern decries 'dangerous' calls to reopen New Zealand borders

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 9:27 am 
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From the G

Quote:
There is going to be an urgent question in the Commons later about Sir Mark Sedwill, who has been forced out of his post as cabinet secretary and national security adviser. He will be replaced as national security adviser by David Frost, the PM’s Europe adviser, who is a political appointee and who does not have a national security background. Unusually, at about the same time, 12.30pm, the same issue is going to be raised in the Lords, where George Robertson, the Labour peer and former Nato secretary general, has tabled a PNQ (private notice question - the Lords version of UQ).

In his Telegraph column today (paywall) William Hague, the former foreign secretary and former Tory leader, is fiercely critical of the treatment of Sedwill. Hague is normally quite supportive of the government, but he says the briefings against Sedwill were “reprehensible” and that Boris Johnson should have put a stop to them. Hague also says that is is worried about Sedwill being replaced by a political figure. He explains:

'If we want the most promising people to serve the country, they have to come from varied points of view. All of us who have dealt with US administrations have witnessed the nightmare of changing long lists of officials when a new President comes in, leading to extended vacancies, loss of expertise and serious damage to diplomacy.

The latest briefing, reported in this newspaper, that the new Cabinet Secretary has to be a “Brexiteer” is not the way to go about appointing them. Of course, he or she will have to be very good at delivering Brexit, but that’s a different requirement. Some civil servants are brilliant at executing policies they didn’t vote for themselves.'

In her column in the Times (paywall) today, Rachel Sylvester quotes an unnamed “friend” of Sedwill saying he will actually be quite relieved to get away from Johnson’s dysfunctional No 10. The source told her:

'He’s fed up with them. There’s only so much you can put up with and the way they operate is appalling.'

'arrogant truth twisters'

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 9:46 am 
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gilsey wrote:

Quote:
"" She said those leaving New Zealand for non-essential reasons could be forced to pay for their mandatory two-week quarantine upon returning – to the tune of thousands of dollars.
She is seeking legal advice to confirm she could implement such a rule.""

A variation on Polluter Pays & "taking responsibility" ! Just imagine applying that to the Great British Holidaymaker ?


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 11:28 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
From the G liveblog yesterday:

Quote:
Parents in England who fail to send their children back to school in September will face fines unless they have a good reason for them not attending, Gavin Williamson, the education secretary, has said.
The work and pensions secretary, Thérèse Coffey, has indicated benefit sanctions will be reintroduced this week as UK jobcentres start to reopen after lockdown, saying it is “important” claimant rules are reinstated.


Rather than win people's trust by reducing the spread with effective testing and tracing, the government appears to have opted to simply bully them back to work.
They're stupid as hell following that course, nothing will snuff the Tory candle faster than this
Bullying parents during a global pandemic dethrones the idiots trying it.


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 11:28 am 
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Gove admired himself and his preposterous speech, he's that deluded


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 11:28 am 
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Good afternoon, everyone.


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 11:34 am 
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citizenJA wrote:
Gove admired himself and his preposterous speech, he's that deluded


He admires himself generally, that Collins cartoon was spot on.


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 11:40 am 
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frog222 wrote:
gilsey wrote:

Quote:
"" She said those leaving New Zealand for non-essential reasons could be forced to pay for their mandatory two-week quarantine upon returning – to the tune of thousands of dollars.
She is seeking legal advice to confirm she could implement such a rule.""
A variation on Polluter Pays & "taking responsibility" ! Just imagine applying that to the Great British Holidaymaker ?
Ardern is a leader of a nation making responsible and rationally proportionate action during a global pandemic


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 11:41 am 
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Vietnam currently has safer leadership than the USA
Think about that Trump
You too, Johnson


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 11:42 am 
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citizenJA wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
From the G liveblog yesterday:
Quote:
Parents in England who fail to send their children back to school in September will face fines unless they have a good reason for them not attending, Gavin Williamson, the education secretary, has said.
The work and pensions secretary, Thérèse Coffey, has indicated benefit sanctions will be reintroduced this week as UK jobcentres start to reopen after lockdown, saying it is “important” claimant rules are reinstated.

Rather than win people's trust by reducing the spread with effective testing and tracing, the government appears to have opted to simply bully them back to work.
They're stupid as hell following that course, nothing will snuff the Tory candle faster than this
Bullying parents during a global pandemic dethrones the idiots trying it.
Going by experience, as soon as there's a sniff of Cv19 classes and/or whole schools will be put in quarantine, back to 'schooling' children of essential workers ETC.
So Handcock KNEW there was a problem in Leicester two weeks ago and waited for 11 days before informing the mayor .
There IS a lesson for labour there, if they can seize it ?

" Sorry we can't give you (the Press) a definite answer ... because the government is concealing the facts, AS WE SAW IN LEICESTER."


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 11:51 am 
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frog222 wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
Morning all.
Lots of people pointing out that this £5bn is a drop in the ocean compared to what we normally spend and comparisons to FDR's New Deal are laughable.
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/ ... 2911569922
I just looked up the OBR's databank and this year's gross capital investment is...£112bn.
Interesting that Gove also referenced FDR in his speech last week - what's that all about?

Perhaps associating their small selves with great historical figures is part of of their strategy for wheedling themselves into the unconscious of the great British public, as in the negative sense of identifying lefties with Stalin and the antichrist Marx ? ( In the US the welfare states of Europe are portrayed as 'socialistic nightmares' by the new US UltraRight.)
I liked this in the thread--
Quote:
George Eaton @georgeeaton
By comparison, FDR’s New Deal represented *40% of GDP* (Johnson’s is 0.2%).


Some of it is simply trolling, that has always been a significant part of the Cummings psyche. And who knows, maybe an experiment to see just how totally credulous and gullible our media stenographers can be (which is totally unsurprisingly "extremely so" in many cases)


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 12:45 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
---
Some of it is simply trolling, that has always been a significant part of the Cummings psyche. And who knows, maybe an experiment to see just how totally credulous and gullible our media stenographers can be (which is totally unsurprisingly "extremely so" in many cases)
(cJA edit)
The propaganda spirals out of lunatic Tory control
Labour isn't blamed any more it gets rather more serious
People expect and insist Labour governs
Will of the people
:rock:


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 12:50 pm 
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Theresa May criticises PM over choice of Brexit envoy for security role

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53233500

Quote:
Mrs May, who appointed Sir Mark Sedwill to both roles when she was PM, told MPs that during her nine years as a member of the National Security Council, she had "listened to the expert, independent advice from national security advisers".

She asked Mr Gove how Mr Frost's appointment squared with remarks he made in a recent speech on civil service reform on the need to "promote people with proven expertise".

"Why is the new national security adviser a political appointee with no proven expertise in national security?"


:clap:

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 1:06 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
Anything they actually do will almost certainly be destructive.


Told you so.

Quote:
this government will shortly bring forward the most radical reforms to our planning system since the end of the second world war.
.................

the newt-counting delays in our system are a massive drag on the productivity and prosperity of this country

That's on a par with badgers moving the goal-posts.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 1:15 pm 
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Quote:
I believe it is also the job of government to create the conditions for free market enterprise and yes we clap for our NHS, but under this government we also clap for those who make our NHS possible our innovators, our wealth creators, our capitalists and financiers.

The real Johnson peeking out there.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 1:23 pm 
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Quote:
Peter Apps
@PeteApps
Boris Johnson says "newt counting" is the cause of slow building in the UK.

According to the Conservative Party's own detailed analysis, that is, I'm afraid, bollocks


https://twitter.com/PeteApps/status/1277912470968045570
The whole thread is well worth a read, and a couple of subsequent ones on his timeline.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 1:38 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Gove admired himself and his preposterous speech, he's that deluded


He admires himself generally, that Collins cartoon was spot on.

Quote:
"Every morning I wake up saddened by the fact we haven't done more to make the most of every talent in our land, reproaching myself that we did not do more..."


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 1:54 pm 
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More on revised planning rules from an archaeologist perspective..

https://medium.com/@paulbelford/removin ... 7359a9cf39

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 1:56 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
Quote:
I believe it is also the job of government to create the conditions for free market enterprise and yes we clap for our NHS, but under this government we also clap for those who make our NHS possible our innovators, our wealth creators, our capitalists and financiers.

The real Johnson peeking out there.


I wonder how many people will follow his "advice"?


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 2:00 pm 
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https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 0ngPmoMI_1
Quote:
Exclusive: What Schools Will Be Told To Do In September So All Pupils Can Return


This is causing quite a bit of chatter on social media today. Vast majority negative. This particular bit prompted a very caustic response from one poster:

Quote:
A new focus on tackling “persistently disruptive” pupils because increased poor behaviour is seen as more “likely” due to a lack of regular schooling and discipline in lockdown


The gist was some doubt about the state's ability to instil discipline, given the complete lack thereof among the government and its own advisors throughout.

Ouch!

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 2:29 pm 
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Most mentioned about the above is the complete absence of any reference to children with SEN, especially how 1:1 would work. I also notice there is no mention either of children with conditions which put them in the moderate to high risk groups, just more of the "most kids don't get it quite so bad as far as we know (which isn't very far)" attitude. It's all a bit aggressive, isn't it?

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 3:04 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:
Quote:
I believe it is also the job of government to create the conditions for free market enterprise and yes we clap for our NHS, but under this government we also clap for those who make our NHS possible our innovators, our wealth creators, our capitalists and financiers.

The real Johnson peeking out there.


I wonder how many people will follow his "advice"?


Johnson is actively trying to counter the raised awareness of how wealth and money are basically impotent without the people who do the jobs we want doing.
Those on good incomes have hopefully discovered it's not the pound note in their pocket that makes their dinner for them, cuts their hair, cleans their toilet or removes their dodgy gallbladder.
Without people to do stuff and make stuff in return for a living, money is pointless.
Even automation can't get round this - who makes the robots, who mines the ore, pilots the ships, designs the whatsits that make everything work? Not money.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 3:39 pm 
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Afternoon all

I am probably going to make myself unpopular but I am reticent to join in the Ardern love-in as I am concerned she is putting herself in a position that it may be difficult to get out of

She is in essence saying complete and utter elimination of CV-19 in NZ and no tolerance of any chances of reintroduction through the borders (if this was a far right leader we would not be impressed at the measures she has taken I suggest). This in essence means that NZ is cut off internationally. No-one will go to visit (or pretty much no-one) and, looking how the rest of the world is acting, that will preclude anyone from NZ being allowed in anywhere else easily even if they wanted to.

The election coming up will have this at the forefront and I guess she will go in with an elimination approach in the manifesto.

The problem for NZ is what happens if it remains endemic across the world? The continental Europe approach is to minimise cases and then look to manage via track and trace but open up borders etc. This is what we are seeing here at the moment - yes we have seen an increase in cases over the last couple of weeks from 150 a week to 300 but hospitalisations, ICU and deaths remain low.

Devi Sridhar seems to be advocating elimination in Scotland on the NZ model - although she has a definition of 'elimination' that is moving towards zero which is very imprecise. I have become less impressed with her as this has gone on are she keeps comparing Germany and NZ in respect of what she advises for Scotland but they are both following significantly different roads so I find her doing this very odd.

The idea that the UK or Scotland can realistically close all borders until a situation like NZ arises has never been advocated or discussed here in detail but many people seem to have it as the default. This approach is massively optimistic as it assumes almost complete eradication and there is no vaccine on the cards yet.

The realistic option is to reach L2 on the UK scale ie present at a low level but manageable which is where Germany (and CH) is - NZ are targeting L1 but at what point will they be able to join the worldwide community - I am sure all the xenophobes are happy now though!

Then we have the perennially criticised Swedes - a country with the most pessimistic approach. Assumed no vaccine and that there was no way to stop it infecting a lot of people over time so they really did focus on 'flattening the curve' and maintaining a steady state. At the moment their metrics are looking poor (but not by a long way the worst) and we have seen that their predicted issues in opening up after lockdown was in part correct.

My considered view on this is the following:

i. If a vaccine comes quickly and you can get everyone vaccinated and it comes under control in 3 months then NZ has the best approach - likelihood of happening is low so they will then have to move to a plan B or stay isolated until there is. Neither of those options will be easy to manage

ii. If we have to wait for a vaccine for a while but the disease stays under control then the German approach (or South Korea and others) would be the best - pretty open borders, relatively normal life and no excess deaths. This would be the scenario I would be basing decisions on

iii. It takes off again and everyone back into strict lockdown - no vaccine for a while so significant disruption. Sweden may fare the best in this scenario although would not escape damage...In this case NZ may be okay too as they will not be in any worse position than now


Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Tue 30 Jun, 2020 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 3:39 pm 
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"Willow904"]
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:
Quote:
I believe it is also the job of government to create the conditions for free market enterprise and yes we clap for our NHS, but under this government we also clap for those who make our NHS possible our innovators, our wealth creators, our capitalists and financiers.

The real Johnson peeking out there.

I wonder how many people will follow his "advice"?

Johnson is actively trying to counter the raised awareness of how wealth and money are basically impotent without the people who do the jobs we want doing.
Those on good incomes have hopefully discovered it's not the pound note in their pocket that makes their dinner for them, cuts their hair, cleans their toilet or removes their dodgy gallbladder.
Without people to do stuff and make stuff in return for a living, money is pointless.
Even automation can't get round this - who makes the robots, who mines the ore, pilots the ships, designs the whatsits that make everything work? Not money.

FROG222 I'll check here too, but it looks as tho all those promises for lifting the wages of carers ETC have gone right out of the window ...


Last edited by frog222 on Tue 30 Jun, 2020 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 3:56 pm 
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@frog222

I don't know if I'm imagining it, but I'm feeling there's been a sudden, and rather horrible, change in tone from our government. Like they'd been playing at "responding responsibly to coronavirus" because it was expected but only at a very superficial level and only until the "story moved on" and they could get back to "normal". And "normal" appears to be incredibly entitled, shirty and unpleasant.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 4:21 pm 
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Having said what I did about Farage's "praise" of Starmer last night, I think we can also be grown up and admit that in this instance the Labour leader got his tone wrong. Now during the Corbyn years "tone" was an obsession of centrists, now its left wingers who notice it more. But sometimes, it does matter. And constructive criticism is good.


Last edited by AnatolyKasparov on Tue 30 Jun, 2020 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 4:52 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Having said what I did about Farage's "praise" of Starmer last night, I think we can also be grown up and admit that in this instance the Labour leader got his tone wrong. Now during the Corbyn years "tone" was an obsession of centrists, now its left wingers who notice it more. Bur sometimes, it does matter. And constructive criticism is good.

AK -- i don't follow as closely as some of you, but he has seemed too placating of the Bozo Régime, "tone" too bloody neutral .... tho he has shown some definite steel too .
Still; there 's time as this awful incompetent crowd make even more fools of themselves, and dreadfully, kill more people. A weak lockdown being now unlocked looks far closer to the US experience than anything European . I hope all of you are still being careful !

I just glanced at the LB and found something really chilling on the ENGLISH government's misuse ((( ?? ))) of test statistics .


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 5:16 pm 
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https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status ... 2691273728

The UK government’s published numbers of new cases at local authority level only include pillar 1 and *not* pillar 2 cases, meaning as many as 90% of new cases are missing from the data

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1277 ... 73728.html


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 7:05 pm 
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Boris Johnson returns to his happy place: upbeat, vague and incoherent

Quote:
Then we got down to the nitty-gritty. Boris didn’t want to draw comparisons with Franklin D Roosevelt’s New Deal, though if others did, he wasn’t going to complain. Only FDR had spent 40% of US GDP on a whole load of job creation schemes, while Boris was stumping up the princely sum of 0.2% of UK GDP. Or £5bn of old money that had already been promised in the March budget.

As so often with Boris, his whole speech was based on a lie. He was acting as if he was announcing something new when the money had already been accounted for. You can get away with recycling old columns for the Daily Telegraph, but you quickly get found out as prime minister.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... incoherent


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 7:27 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 8:21 pm 
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@hsom

Serious question, have you ever been to NZ?

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 8:50 pm 
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MAD RUSH Towards a Second Wave

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Cause mayhem and let somebody else clean it up, it is straight out of the Johnson playbook.

‘You wanted your freedom back and now you’ve got it – just don’t blame the Government’. ‘You wanted the local public health directors to take charge, well it’s all down to them now’. ‘Never mind about testing and tracing, Deloitte and Serco are sitting pretty and so will the party election funds when the time comes’.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 9:55 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
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Exclusive: What Schools Will Be Told To Do In September So All Pupils Can Return


This is causing quite a bit of chatter on social media today. Vast majority negative. This particular bit prompted a very caustic response from one poster:

Quote:
A new focus on tackling “persistently disruptive” pupils because increased poor behaviour is seen as more “likely” due to a lack of regular schooling and discipline in lockdown


The gist was some doubt about the state's ability to instil discipline, given the complete lack thereof among the government and its own advisors throughout.

Ouch!


Interestingly one of the core parts of current risk assessments is that any 'bad behaviour' (I know what a loose and loaded descriptor that is but it will do for the moment) would not be tolerated at all and kids would be home again for the rest of the current arrangemetns. Don't know if anything has actually happened about that, although with so few students in it seems unlikely. My issue for September- well there are lots but my main issue is that I think it's likely that if they get people to accept that it's safe for kids to go back 100% and full time (and there are lots of issues about that) then,regardless of safety, adults will just have to make that work. I have a meeting about risk assessments tomorrow (first day back - getting a lift with someone who lives locally, has recently had a baby and has been shielding) and whilst it's really about now the important stuff is going to be about September. I honestly cannot imagine any way it can possibly work other than saying to adults working in schools 'just shut up and get on with it'.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Jun, 2020 10:52 pm 
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GCSE and A-level exams in all subjects to be available in autumn

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GCSE and A-level pupils in England who are unhappy with their predicted grades this summer will be able to sit exams in all subjects in the autumn to try to improve their mark, the exams regulator has confirmed.


How? Y11 and Y13 students dropped off the provision map nationally once it was clear there would be no summer 2020 exams. They're going to sit exams in the Autumn with no teaching since March? In schools which are under orders to make current Y10 and Y12 the big catch up priority and everyone else the not much smaller catch up priority?

It's a backdoor offer to buy yourself improvement to people who can afford private tuition.

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