FlyTheNest

A haven
It is currently Fri 07 Aug, 2020 1:40 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 73 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 6:21 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:22 pm
Posts: 4119
Location: Wombwell, United Kingdom
Has thanked: 1136 times
Been thanked: 7661 times
Morning all


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 9:48 am 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm
Posts: 2388
Has thanked: 6794 times
Been thanked: 3247 times
:D :D :D :D High tide ! Life's a beach :D :D :D :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 9:51 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 4088
Has thanked: 6999 times
Been thanked: 8447 times
And then you die.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 9:54 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 4088
Has thanked: 6999 times
Been thanked: 8447 times
Quote:
Emma Kennedy
@EmmaKennedy
If masks are going to become compulsory “within weeks” why aren’t they compulsory now?

It’s Please Don’t Go To The Pubs But We’re Not Going To Shut Them all over again, isn’t it?


Quote:
Stevie D Esq.
@stevieinselby
Replying to
@EmmaKennedy
They need time to set up a dodgy company to gift the procurement contact to for masks at £120 each...

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 10:41 am 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 11170
Has thanked: 1117 times
Been thanked: 21473 times
gilsey wrote:
And then you die.


As you may already have seen, Jack Charlton has. RIP.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 1:53 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
Good afternoon, everyone.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 2:13 pm 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm
Posts: 2388
Has thanked: 6794 times
Been thanked: 3247 times
citizenJA wrote:
Good afternoon, everyone.

Quiet 'ere innit ! Been for a swim at the beach, done some grass wacking, now in the shade listening to a monster combine harvesting oats and something else, beginning 30m away . Food for the organic free range pigs of my new neighbour.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 2:21 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 11170
Has thanked: 1117 times
Been thanked: 21473 times
Nice weather today (after a more unsettled period) so the quiet here is maybe not so surprising.

This is one of those occasions when AH might have livened things up with one of his post splurges. Maybe he will have a chat with Wor Jackie about old times at Leeds soon.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 3:53 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 9193
Has thanked: 5127 times
Been thanked: 20404 times
Afternoon all.

If you needed any more encouragement for going out, the fact that you're even less likely to bump into this incredibly silly man must be the impetus you need.

Quote:
Quentin Letts
@thequentinletts
Ministers and officials think forcing people to wear muzzles will encourage them to travel and go shopping It will have the very opposite effect on me.
7:22 AM · Jul 11, 2020·Twitter for Android


:clap:

_________________
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 5:05 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
Quote:
A dozen California firefighting camps that house incarcerated firefighters have been quarantined and taken out of commission after a coronavirus outbreak at a state prison, highlighting the precarious situation for these crews.

Since the second world war, California has trained and deployed thousands of prisoners to fight fires each year, recruiting those who are willing to fight wildfires at great personal risk in exchange for low wages and reduced sentences.

Pandemic sidelines more than 1,000 incarcerated wildfire fighters in California
Quote:
"...crews are both crucial and heavily exploited... ."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 5:06 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
Quote:
California to release up to 8,000 prisoners to curb spread of coronavirus
Friday’s announcement comes as the state’s prisons battle a dramatic surge in Covid-19 cases
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ns-release


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 5:48 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
Quote:
Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK
Last updated on Saturday 11 July 2020 at 6:20pm


Total number of lab-confirmed UK cases
288,953
Total number of people who have had a positive test result

Total number of COVID-19 associated UK deaths
44,798
Deaths of people who have had a positive test result

Daily number of lab-confirmed UK cases
Number of additional cases on Saturday 11 July 2020
820

Daily number of COVID-19 associated UK deaths
Number of additional cases on Saturday 11 July 2020
148


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 6:55 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
Quote:
NHS Test and Trace
Privacy Information
About infectious diseases contact tracing
---
The number of contact tracers needed for COVID-19 is unprecedented so the Department of Health and Social Care has instructed the following organisations to help:
The NHS Business Services Authority, an arm’s-length body of the Department of Health and Social Care, which is managing the contracts with NHS Professionals, Serco UK and SITEL Group
NHS Professionals, a limited company owned by the Department of Health and Social Care, which is recruiting and managing registered medical professionals to trace and provide public health advice to the contacts of people with COVID-19
Serco UK, a private company, which is providing additional staff to call the contacts of people with COVID-19 and provide advice on self-isolation
SITEL Group, a private company, which is also providing additional staff to call the contacts of people with COVID-19 and provide advice on self-isolation
Amazon Web Services, a private company, which is providing the secure storage location for the information collected by NHS Test and Trace
These organisations are only permitted to use information collected by NHS Test and Trace to help with the COVID-19 contact tracing. They are data processors acting on the instructions of the Department of Health and Social Care and cannot use the contract tracing information for any other purpose.

https://contact-tracing.phe.gov.uk/help/privacy-notice
Is everyone reassured?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 6:56 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
Quote:
NHS Test and Trace
Welcome
https://contact-tracing.phe.gov.uk/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 7:11 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
Quote:
Department of Health and Social Care
@DHSCgovuk
As a recipient of a kidney transplant Emma is clinically extremely vulnerable to #COVID19.
Although the guidance on shielding is relaxing now, Emma still doesn’t feel safe about going out.
Hear from Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jenny Harries on what support is available
https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/12 ... 7427658754
Dr. Harries
in the recent past has indicated reluctant people unconvinced government advice is robust require a swift kick out the door


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 9:12 pm 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm
Posts: 2388
Has thanked: 6794 times
Been thanked: 3247 times
Is everyone reassured? NO WAY !

'Doctor' (to Hell with your vulnerability) Harries --- can get stuffed .

One I can't get out of my mind --

RISHI (I breathe on your food) SUNAK


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 10:05 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 11170
Has thanked: 1117 times
Been thanked: 21473 times
We are likely to end up with over 50k "official" virus deaths, with the real figure almost certainly being significantly higher.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 10:08 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State
User avatar

Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 8:15 pm
Posts: 3049
Has thanked: 242 times
Been thanked: 5805 times
We saw a friend yesterday who said yes, her daughter (same age as our oldest) is now moving between home and her boyfriend's house and is going out with friends in the evening, and her older boy is out with friends every night, 50-100 16-18 year olds meeting up together. There are lots of apparently sensible people out there acting like everything is fine.

_________________
all the pennies in the thames will not make it how it was


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 10:09 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State
User avatar

Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 8:15 pm
Posts: 3049
Has thanked: 242 times
Been thanked: 5805 times
Also *fanfare* my older daughter has got a First in Music - she got her lowest mark for the whole course on her final piece,done at home away from the normality of university work,and missed a starred first by a few marks.

_________________
all the pennies in the thames will not make it how it was


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul, 2020 10:38 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:22 pm
Posts: 4119
Location: Wombwell, United Kingdom
Has thanked: 1136 times
Been thanked: 7661 times
adam wrote:
Also *fanfare* my older daughter has got a First in Music - she got her lowest mark for the whole course on her final piece,done at home away from the normality of university work,and missed a starred first by a few marks.

Congratulations to her Adam :clap:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 9:11 am 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 11170
Has thanked: 1117 times
Been thanked: 21473 times
Good morning all, anything to report?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 9:18 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 4088
Has thanked: 6999 times
Been thanked: 8447 times
Quote:
Cabinet minister Michael Gove explicitly says face masks should not be mandatory in England, giving his first clear answer on this.

When asked by the BBC’s Andrew Marr if the wearing of face masks should be mandatory, Gove answered, “not mandatory, no”.

“I trust people’s good sense,” he said. However, he said that the situation was evolving and “tougher measures could be taken”.

Clear as mud, then.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 9:21 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 4088
Has thanked: 6999 times
Been thanked: 8447 times
Quote:
Shadow cabinet office minister Rachel Reeves has said that face masks are “a sensible way forward”.

“People want to do the right thing but they want to know what the right thing is,” she said.

She wouldn’t say exactly what the Labour Party would commit to regarding their stance on the masks, but suggested that more widespread usage might encourage people to go shops and spend money more readily.

I'm wondering if Labour are missing a trick here, wouldn't seeing opposition MPs wearing masks routinely be a good thing?

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 9:29 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 4088
Has thanked: 6999 times
Been thanked: 8447 times
Quote:
Anand Menon
@anandMenon1
So the Government clearly want us to wear masks, but clearly don’t want to be seen to be telling us to wear masks. So that’s all very clear.

Yes.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 9:40 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 4088
Has thanked: 6999 times
Been thanked: 8447 times
We also have the unedifying spectacle of Simon Hoare bemoaning potential imports of chlorinated chicken from the US and Damian Green up in arms about the customs clearance centre in Kent.

:sick:

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 9:50 am 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm
Posts: 2388
Has thanked: 6794 times
Been thanked: 3247 times
gilsey wrote:
Quote:
Shadow cabinet office minister Rachel Reeves has said that face masks are “a sensible way forward”.
“People want to do the right thing but they want to know what the right thing is,” she said.
She wouldn’t say exactly what the Labour Party would commit to regarding their stance on the masks, but suggested that more widespread usage might encourage people to go shops and spend money more readily.
I'm wondering if Labour are missing a trick here, wouldn't seeing opposition MPs wearing masks routinely be a good thing?

Agreed, I was just going to post the same thing ! Masks are obligatory here in hairdressers and hospitals, but optional in chemists , at least some GP's waiting rooms, and shops . In some shops and supermarket chains all staff are masked and distancing facilitated, but others are really sloppy. Management decisions ! And many people are very frustrated that the government has not made masks compulsory as in so many other countries.
It does look as though the LP is waffling, still running scared of the great british public idiocy, particularly on a week when the WHO has revised its thinking on aerosol transmission ! From the LiveBlog --
Quote:
Laboratory studies show that coronavirus droplets can remain in the air for an hour in their infectious state, British virologist Wendy Barclay said.

Barclay, who is the head of department of Infectious Disease and chair in Influenza Virology at Imperial College London, said the change in narrative from the World Health Organization this week to admit that airborne transmission was possible was important.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... a2adb05763
In fact aerosol transmission is old news ...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 10:06 am 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 11170
Has thanked: 1117 times
Been thanked: 21473 times
The main argument against wearing masks may be that they give people a false sense of security, and thus make them more careless in other ways?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 10:09 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:22 pm
Posts: 4119
Location: Wombwell, United Kingdom
Has thanked: 1136 times
Been thanked: 7661 times
gilsey wrote:
Quote:
Shadow cabinet office minister Rachel Reeves has said that face masks are “a sensible way forward”.

“People want to do the right thing but they want to know what the right thing is,” she said.

She wouldn’t say exactly what the Labour Party would commit to regarding their stance on the masks, but suggested that more widespread usage might encourage people to go shops and spend money more readily.

I'm wondering if Labour are missing a trick here, wouldn't seeing opposition MPs wearing masks routinely be a good thing?

That would involve Labour taking a firm stance on something, which seems to be the last thing they want to do at the moment.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 10:11 am 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm
Posts: 2388
Has thanked: 6794 times
Been thanked: 3247 times
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
The main argument against wearing masks may be that they give people a false sense of security, and thus make them more careless in other ways?
Well, from observation in my ventures into shops, mask-wearers are very much more careful, while the mask-less appear to believe that Covid is over and done with !


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 10:28 am 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 11170
Has thanked: 1117 times
Been thanked: 21473 times
Starmer sceptics might want to have a look at his speech to the Durham miners gala yesterday - it was genuinely good, and pretty clear.

(and of course the fact he attended at all shows up some of the sillier "he is more right wing than Blair!" internet chatter)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 10:54 am 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3338
Has thanked: 869 times
Been thanked: 5692 times
Good morning/afternoon

On masks I have some concerns.

The WHO website itself has tucked away a report highlighting the lack of evidence as to their efficacy to prevent airborne diseases (in this case the flu)

https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/han ... g.pdf?ua=1

However, I am okay wearing one as anything that helps is fine but it is the bigger picture and the behavioural side that concerns me

Facemasks have almost become the demonstration that you are on the 'right side' - those who wear masks are the goodies and those on the other are the baddies - a totemic demonstration of your commitment to being sufficiently concerned as much as being demonstrably efficacious

In the short-term I have little sympathy for the argument against wearing one per se but I have a problem based on the 'political' aspects of wearing one

As with lockdown compulsory wearing of masks is for me a last resort policy and not something we should see as the 'normal' if at all possible. It removes one of the aspects of being human - seeing people's faces and determining their thoughts through their expressions. Wearing a mask prevents you from smiling at someone, laughing and watching people's reactions. It is also surprising that I have been unable to recognise people I know when they are wearing a mask.

Then it comes back to the data - the evidence from countries that have adopted compulsory facemarks is mixed as the the effect it has and we have very few control experiments. My concern is that facemasks have made only a minor contribution to the recent improvements in the numbers.

And here comes my problem - HSE rules are difficult to remove once in place. Making facemasks compulsory is a clear rule and who will be the politician brave enough to relax it? Once it is relaxed though I am sure we will go back to the 'goodies' vs 'baddies' argument and it is no longer about the scientific benefits etc it will be used as an indication of how you see yourself

The reality is Covid has been a difficult time for me as I am looking at data and information and am not always accepting of the consensus that seems to have become the norm. So much of the debate has become a metaphor for political beliefs. I have been called 'Trumpian', a 'granny killer', 'a right wing murderer' just for suggesting that the numbers and data are not as clear as people would make out

Ages ago certain experts were saying that the projected IFR at over 1% was over-estimating things and that we had no clue as to the case numbers and we can now see that as case numbers are rising strongly, the same cannot be said of hospitalisations and deaths, even with the predictions after certain events. I am not saying it won't happen but am tired of seeing the 'let's see in 3 weeks' argument. Also the lazy criticism of the Swedish approach with very little recourse to actual data from there and instead using pretty convenient comparisons to make an argument.

My prediction is that much of what we think as being the 'truth' is based on our interpretations from a time where we had very little data and were basing things on prediction. Now we have much more retrospective data coming in we should be using that rather than prediction (actually both as prediction still important) and that should be informing our responses but I see numbers such as this kills 1% of all infected (not the case as there are massive differences between demographics and even now we are still underestimating infection) and 20% end up in hospital with 5-10% in ICU.

Now the IFR and death rate is dropping we are now moving the argument to 'number of cases' (without taking into account the move from constrained testing capability) and 'long-term effects' on those who have had it. I am not saying that these are not relevant at all but I am a bit suspicious at some of the reporting


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 11:39 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 6588
Has thanked: 12105 times
Been thanked: 15121 times
@howsillyofme

I share your doubts about masks. We've seen a good reduction in spread with social distancing measures. Where social distancing is harder and people are in close quarters for long periods of time, I can see the benefit of masks, so I'm supportive of their use on public transport but am less sure about shops. I'd prefer to keep the social distancing. I'm worried the idea of masks is being introduced now as a sop to the cautious ahead of dropping social distancing completely to benefit the economy and so people not wearing masks can be blamed for any negative consequences of dropping the two metre rule. These aren't scientifically based thoughts especially, just my instinct based on the fact that spread seems higher where there is a lot of sustained contact, within households, hospitals, care homes etc.

Edited to clarify I'm worried about social distancing being dropped in workplaces and schools more than shops, where contact is more transient. Drivers, particularly taxi drivers and limo drivers, were one of the hardest hit occupations in the early days, which suggests close quarters over longer periods in enclosed spaces are the biggest danger.

_________________
“Of all the trees we could've hit, we had to get one that hits back.”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 12:06 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3338
Has thanked: 869 times
Been thanked: 5692 times
specifically on facemasks

https://twitter.com/FatEmperor/status/1 ... 7736878080


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 12:50 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 4088
Has thanked: 6999 times
Been thanked: 8447 times
Exhorting people to wear face coverings is pretty pointless though, most people should know by now that wearing one yourself isn't useful unless, say, 90% of other people are wearing them. You're never going to get anywhere near that level without making it compulsory.
Not for the first time, I'm not sure what the govt's objective is.

I would be very unhappy if they used mask-wearing to justify allowing increased numbers in shops, but not enough people will do it to facilitate that.


I read an interesting piece a while ago on how difficult it is to prove something like this empirically, not sure where now, if I come across it again I'll link it.


Quote:
My concern is that facemasks have made only a minor contribution to the recent improvements in the numbers.

The British and Sky pro-cycling teams enjoyed much success using the concept of marginal gains.
We shouldn't be too quick to dismiss a 'minor contribution' when lives are at stake.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Last edited by gilsey on Sun 12 Jul, 2020 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 12:57 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 4088
Has thanked: 6999 times
Been thanked: 8447 times
Willow904 wrote:
Edited to clarify I'm worried about social distancing being dropped in workplaces and schools more than shops, where contact is more transient.

Neither social distancing nor face coverings are the answer for schools, really the only solution is a very low infection rate in the general population combined with effective testing and tracing.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 1:01 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3338
Has thanked: 869 times
Been thanked: 5692 times
gilsey wrote:
Exhorting people to wear face coverings is pretty pointless though, most people should know by now that wearing one yourself isn't useful unless, say, 90% of other people are wearing them. You're never going to get anywhere near that level without making it compulsory.
Not for the first time, I'm not sure what the govt's objective is.

I would be very unhappy if they used mask-wearing to justify allowing increased numbers in shops, but not enough people will do it to facilitate that.


I read an interesting piece a while ago on how difficult it is to prove something like this empirically, not sure where now, if I come across it again I'll link it.



It is difficult to measure empirically but that shouldn't stop us trying to do things right and correctly. This applies to any 'precautionary principle '. The fact is though that hosptilizations and deaths in all those examples given dropped prior to any mandatory face covering and most countries prior to that the uptake was very low

If we cannot measure then are you suggesting face coverings compulsory until a vaccine arrives - if it ever does?

At some point the risks from Covid-19 will actually be less than the risks put in place to mitigate it (some will argue that this has already occurred) and these go further than public health - it goes into personal freedoms and economic ones.

I am happy to wear a face covering if it helps and helps reduce the level but I do not want to see it go any further than that but most countries have already done well without face coverings and I am unconvinced that it is the silver bullet it is sold as.

As Willow said in specific use cases then it will be more appropriate than others but I have lost any indication either side of this argument listens or behaves rationally - 'following the science' is one of the most abused terms I have heard


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 1:12 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 4088
Has thanked: 6999 times
Been thanked: 8447 times
Tbh I would have no problem with it.

Also see my edit above.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 1:17 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 4088
Has thanked: 6999 times
Been thanked: 8447 times
Quote:
'following the science' is one of the most abused terms I have heard

Our govt are the experts at abusing the term.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 1:55 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3338
Has thanked: 869 times
Been thanked: 5692 times
How many deaths will be saved by face coverings though?

We have had lockdown off since 11 May here, including schools, nightclubs, bars and restaurants. Deaths since then have been <20 and none in the last 7 days

Facemasks were made compulsory last week because uptake had been low despite advice from Gment so now for all public transport and shops. This was done because there had been a slight uptick in cases after the last load of opening up - none of those such as nightclubs will need to have masks though

The decisions have been purely political and not based on any new data or risk analysis.

Now, in the short-term I have no issues - it is a pain but I can manage but because the decision has been political I am not sure what would be used as justification for going back. We have no or very few deaths prior to facemasks and very few cases (a consistent 1-2% being tested positive based on the tests) or hospitilisations

This is the problem with these decisions, like the UK quarantine one - there is no real reasoning for it and because of that I am a little uncomfortable. I am less worried about here as there is a strong streak of libertarianism here so don't doubt it will be lifted as soon as it could be but in the UK there has been a tendency to authoritarianism throughout this whole crisis - driven often by the public


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 3:08 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 6588
Has thanked: 12105 times
Been thanked: 15121 times
gilsey wrote:
The British and Sky pro-cycling teams enjoyed much success using the concept of marginal gains.
We shouldn't be too quick to dismiss a 'minor contribution' when lives are at stake.


Although you're talking about elite athletes wearing aerodynamic clothing on state of the art racing bikes. The benefits of aerodynamic clothing on a middle-aged, overweight Sunday cyclist on a £500 road bike are slightly more questionable.
And our government and their policies are definitely more Sunday cyclist than elite athlete :D

_________________
“Of all the trees we could've hit, we had to get one that hits back.”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 4:50 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Good morning all, anything to report?

Mr citizen and I haven't altered our lockdown vigilance


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 5:07 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
We're wearing masks inside places other people frequent when we've no alternative to going inside.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 5:22 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 6588
Has thanked: 12105 times
Been thanked: 15121 times
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... y-suggests
Quote:
Immunity to Covid-19 could be lost in months, UK study suggests

_________________
“Of all the trees we could've hit, we had to get one that hits back.”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 5:35 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
Quote:
About 200 workers at a vegetable farm and packing business supplying Sainsbury’s, Asda, M&S and Aldi have been ordered to isolate on the property after an outbreak of coronavirus.

At least 73 of the workers at AS Green & Co, based in Herefordshire, have tested positive for Covid-19, and more are awaiting results.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... e-outbreak


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 6:02 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3338
Has thanked: 869 times
Been thanked: 5692 times
Willow904 wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/12/immunity-to-covid-19-could-be-lost-in-months-uk-study-suggests
Quote:
Immunity to Covid-19 could be lost in months, UK study suggests


there seems to be a bit of a battle going on between virologists and immunologists at the moment - the immunologists are taking a different view from here

If the first line antibodies are short-lived and the only means of defence as the virologist quoted here says then that is very problematic for a vaccine - 'herd immunity' is the only way forward no matter what they say - it is just the best way to it is a vaccine

Many viral diseases have no vaccine - scientists can be as politically influenced as anyone else and that goes for both sides!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 6:06 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
It's my understanding the virus causing COVID-19 is new making it difficult for scientists to give unequivocal information about it. They just don't know enough yet.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 6:33 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
Quote:
Department of Health and Social Care
@DHSCgovuk
Vicky is shielding because she has a congenital heart condition.
As guidance for clinically extremely vulnerable people is relaxed, Vicky wants to know what protections should be in place at her workplace?
Hear Deputy Chief Medical Officer Jenny Harries’ response
https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/12 ... 6880963584
Dr. Harries' response includes trusting government providing employers with advice.
Employers will place signs in windows or elsewhere indicating they've done a COVID-19 risk assessment listing steps taken.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 6:35 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 19514
Has thanked: 103448 times
Been thanked: 15169 times
I don't trust this government.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 7:31 pm 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm
Posts: 2388
Has thanked: 6794 times
Been thanked: 3247 times
citizenJA wrote:
It's my understanding the virus causing COVID-19 is new making it difficult for scientists to give unequivocal information about it. They just don't know enough yet.
Exactement !


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 12 Jul, 2020 8:09 pm 
Online
Prime Minister

Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 11:18 am
Posts: 13772
Has thanked: 26463 times
Been thanked: 22430 times
PTO


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 73 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], PorFavor, Sky'sGoneOut and 80 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group