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 Post subject: Tuesday 14th July 2020
PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 5:41 am 
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Morning all.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 6:17 am 
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Good morning, everyone.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 7:26 am 
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Good morning all

I have attached a link to the report that is getting mentioned in the news today on potential risk in the winter season

https://acmedsci.ac.uk/file-download/51353957

As with much of this subject the reporting is sensationalist and shows none of the nuance in the report

The report actually seems to exhort better preparation and maintenance of good behaviours as well as better data collection and testing regimes. None of which could really be argued with.

What the report also makes absolutely clear that the winter risk is not just due to CV it is due to the yearly pressure on health services due to winter respiratory illness and the fact that we have ignored this for years. Flu may be as much of a danger as CV and for that we have some ways to prevent it.

Also worth noting is the predictive data where the predicted impact on hospital admissions is stated as 24,500 - 251,000 - a rather large range and essentially meaningless other than for indicative and planning purposes. Guess which number the papers used - they don't even bother with the 120000 mid-point? Predictive models are like that!

On the winter flu season we have actually had two mild years in 2018 and 2019 which may have had an impact on the CV mortalities - some analyses have shown that there is a moderate coloration between CV impact and previous flu season severity. It makes some sense as the co-morbidities effected can be similar but needs a lot more work clearly.

I have a personal side to this - I know no-one who has had CV-19 severely let alone died from it but I have experienced 2 people who died from flu complications in recent years and another 4 who suffered long-term affects from post-viral syndrome. When I hear people dismiss flu as a minor disease (as some do to CV) it does annoy me somewhat and we do have 10000s excess deaths due to it and other respiratory illnesses every year that are a lot more preventable than CV-19 but we never seem to bother to much about that until now. I am sure if we saw some of the risk assessments prepared every winter then it may put things into perspective


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 7:58 am 
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Quote:
The 11-plus is as much about luck and how much private tuition your parents can afford, as about innate potential.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... -selection
the enormity of this


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 9:05 am 
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Attachment:
johnhopkins Mortality Analyses 14 July 2020.png
johnhopkins Mortality Analyses 14 July 2020.png [ 36.74 KiB | Viewed 751 times ]


Mortality in the most affected countries
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 9:06 am 
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Good morfternoon.

Quote:
If the Tories have ‘economic credibility’, what on earth does it mean?

Zoe Williams (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/14/if-the-tories-have-economic-credibility-what-on-earth-does-it-mean


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 9:20 am 
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Quote:
"...the Conservatives are very good at absorbing any opposition to their hegemony on the right."
- Simon Wren-Lewis
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2020/0 ... eader.html
I've noticed that too.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 10:17 am 
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Off topic but I strongly recommend people look for comet Neowise on a cloudless night.

After a couple of false starts looking from the back garden I realised last night that it's visible from our front window. 8-)

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... y-18587336

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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 10:21 am 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
The report actually seems to exhort better preparation and maintenance of good behaviours as well as better data collection and testing regimes. None of which could really be argued with.


And none of which will happen here.

I'm aware of about a dozen deaths from Covid connected with school. I strongly suspect that when flu comes around, which children are very good at spreading, then those of them who happen to be asymptomatically CV19 infected will become much better spreaders of that too - same mechanisms as flu. We'll see.

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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 10:35 am 
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PorFavor wrote:
Good morfternoon.

Quote:
If the Tories have ‘economic credibility’, what on earth does it mean?

Zoe Williams (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/14/if-the-tories-have-economic-credibility-what-on-earth-does-it-mean


Far too many people bought the line from first Thatcher and then Osborne that you run a national economy like a household budget.

(because of course that is "common sense" even though it is totally rubbish, and those who push that line mostly know it is)

Even in 2020, you still see "BrOwN sOlD aLl OuR gOlD" on social media as an anti-Labour talking point.

(and of course in the short term, Sunak handing out goodies was never likely to be unpopular)


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 10:36 am 
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Quote:
Deepti Gurdasani
@dgurdasani1
Every day we don't follow an elimination strategy to drive R down as low as possible, and accept that R at 1 is adequate, we say that we're happy with continuing to have 80-100 deaths/day in England. Our registered deaths have plateaued over the past 2 wks with no decline.8/N


https://twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/ ... 6886585347

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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 10:41 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Far too many people bought the line from first Thatcher and then Osborne that you run a national economy like a household budget.


Not much different from demonising the EU, unscrupulous people saw how they could use it for their own ends and sell it to enough of the population to make it possible.

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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 10:42 am 
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Yep, the cynicism of people putting forward a line they mostly know is false is not in dispute.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 11:04 am 
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gilsey wrote:
Off topic but I strongly recommend people look for comet Neowise on a cloudless night.

After a couple of false starts looking from the back garden I realised last night that it's visible from our front window. 8-)

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... y-18587336
:rock:


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 11:06 am 
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@gilsey

By the way, I meant to thank you for the Anand Menon quote yesterday. I count myself as a fan.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 11:15 am 
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Does anyone here have any idea of how much of the Huawei kit we've already paid for (and how much?) or how much we still owe? The bill, and its ramifications (especially the "still owe" bit with regard to future relations with China), never gets mentioned in the news. Or if it does, it's passed me by.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 11:36 am 
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Quote:
Contact tracers in England have been locked out of their accounts this morning, hindering their ability to reach people who may have contracted the coronavirus, Sky News is reporting.

A Tier 2 contact tracer (which means they have a clinical background) told Sky that those whose account with Amazon Web Services (who provide the infrastructure for the test and trace system in England) was activated on 13 May has been unable to login due to the sudden expiration of their passwords.

It isn’t known how many contact tracers have been affected by the issue. A source told Sky that the password reset site, run by Sitel, has also crashed. (Politics Live, Guardian)


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 11:52 am 
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PorFavor wrote:
Quote:
Contact tracers in England have been locked out of their accounts this morning, hindering their ability to reach people who may have contracted the coronavirus, Sky News is reporting.

A Tier 2 contact tracer (which means they have a clinical background) told Sky that those whose account with Amazon Web Services (who provide the infrastructure for the test and trace system in England) was activated on 13 May has been unable to login due to the sudden expiration of their passwords.

It isn’t known how many contact tracers have been affected by the issue. A source told Sky that the password reset site, run by Sitel, has also crashed. (Politics Live, Guardian)
it's fine
I turned everything off, waited a couple minutes, then turned it back on


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 11:54 am 
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PorFavor wrote:
Does anyone here have any idea of how much of the Huawei kit we've already paid for (and how much?) or how much we still owe? The bill, and its ramifications (especially the "still owe" bit with regard to future relations with China), never gets mentioned in the news. Or if it does, it's passed me by.

Quote:
Huawei 5G kit must be removed from UK by 2027
4 minutes ago

The UK's mobile providers are being banned from buying new Huawei 5G equipment after 31 December, and they must also remove all the Chinese firm's 5G kit from their networks by 2027.
Digital Secretary Oliver Dowden told the House of Commons of the decision.
It follows sanctions imposed by Washington, which claims the firm poses a national security threat - something Huawei denies.
Mr Dowden said the move would delay the country's 5G rollout by a year.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53403793
Is that like telling them they need us more than we need them?


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 12:12 pm 
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Quote:
Dr David Strain, clinical senior lecturer at the University of Exeter and also chair of the British Medical Association’s medical academic staff committee, said that masks should be used until there is less than one new case per million of population per day:

'....We must carefully consider how we introduce masks. In several locations, such as pubs and restaurants, the use of masks will not be feasible or even possible. In these locations strict physical distancing of more than 2m and/or physical barriers should be used in order to protect the staff and other customers from the risk of asymptomatic carriers...'

Let's hope this is followed.

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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 12:15 pm 
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Thanks. The BBC article to which you link was very informative re the current general situation.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 12:29 pm 
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Hi all

Finding the discourse between maskers and anti-maskers profoundly depressing on social media today

The excuses for not wearing one are pretty lame but the invective and ridiculous comments from the other side don't help things with their sense of superiority - especially from people who have a very poor record into caring to much about their fellow citizens

For those of us concerned about the 'normalisation' of masks beyond this immediate need and continued 'precautionary' use I find that too much is being made of them and their importance within the NPI framework over-stated. The data is currently non-cpnclusiveon real efficaciousness and their is no real quality assessment.

It is not so much the wearing masks that concerns me at all, it is the step on to not wearing masks......! Do we, for example, from now start daily communication of winter respiratory illness cases every year and mandate mask wearing for that period in order to save lives?

Or, going further, ban cars in cities when particulates level gets too high (alreadyy done in some places)?

We have now a lot of people arguing public health vs economy so is this now the defining measure? We shut down specific areas or industries if they cause have preventable illnesses- chronic as well as acute?


People living in low- and middle-income countries disproportionately experience the burden of outdoor air pollution with 91% (of the 4.2 million premature deaths) occurring in low- and middle-income countries, and the greatest burden in the WHO South-East Asia and Western Pacific regions. The latest burden estimates reflect the very significant role air pollution plays in cardiovascular illness and death. More and more, evidence demonstrating the linkages between ambient air pollution and the cardiovascular disease risk is becoming available, including studies from highly polluted areas.

WHO estimates that in 2016, some 58% of outdoor air pollution-related premature deaths were due to ischaemic heart disease and strokes, while 18% of deaths were due to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and acute lower respiratory infections respectively, and 6% of deaths were due to lung cancer.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 12:30 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Thanks. The BBC article to which you link was very informative re the current general situation.

government put me in charge of it


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 12:41 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
---
Or, going further, ban cars in cities when particulates level gets too high (alreadyy done in some places)?

We have now a lot of people arguing public health vs economy so is this now the defining measure? We shut down specific areas or industries if they cause have preventable illnesses- chronic as well as acute?
---
(cJA edit)
Yes, the pollution is too much, it must stop. Our economy is created by people, we can change it. Lots of safe industries good for the health of people, other lifeforms and the environment to choose from instead of continuing harmful production.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 12:47 pm 
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@howsillyofme1

Quote:
We have now a lot of people arguing public health vs economy so is this now the defining measure?


Well, it would, in my opinion, be a good basis on which to model the future.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 12:54 pm 
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@citizenJA

Whoops!


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 12:57 pm 
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I really liked that clean air week after week in the Spring
the quiet was good


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 12:59 pm 
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Matt Hancock doesn't like Jonathan Ashworth's tone!


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 1:06 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Quote:
Contact tracers in England have been locked out of their accounts this morning, hindering their ability to reach people who may have contracted the coronavirus, Sky News is reporting.

A Tier 2 contact tracer (which means they have a clinical background) told Sky that those whose account with Amazon Web Services (who provide the infrastructure for the test and trace system in England) was activated on 13 May has been unable to login due to the sudden expiration of their passwords.

It isn’t known how many contact tracers have been affected by the issue. A source told Sky that the password reset site, run by Sitel, has also crashed. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Apparently their passwords expired - they started work on 13 May.

https://twitter.com/rowlsmanthorpe/stat ... 7960631297


:wall:

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Last edited by gilsey on Tue 14 Jul, 2020 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 1:10 pm 
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twat

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/12 ... 6293620737

this is what I am talking about!


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 1:26 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
twat

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/12 ... 6293620737

this is what I am talking about!


Of course that is a silly sweeping generalisation, and yet......I too have noticed a bit of overlap with anti-vaxxers in particular.

The health benefits of mask wearing can certainly be exaggerated (though equally, there is little doubt they do exist)

However, their main utility could be as a confidence building measure.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 1:43 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
twat

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/12 ... 6293620737

this is what I am talking about!


Of course that is a silly sweeping generalisation, and yet......I too have noticed a bit of overlap with anti-vaxxers in particular.

The health benefits of mask wearing can certainly be exaggerated (though equally, there is little doubt they do exist)

However, their main utility could be as a confidence building measure.



I am not surprised about anti-vaxxers and the climate change deniers are also out in force attacking predictive models of all kinds I agree

However, we are being exposed to this concept of 'safe' - some people do not want to leave their house but would you be happy for them to be called cranks because their perception of safe is very different to mine? If someone refuses a vaccine that has not been fully tested would they be a 'crank'?

If someone criticises some of the assumptions in predictive modelling for CV-19 based on very immature understanding then are they the same as someone who challenges the well-established over decade assumptions in climate change models?

If someone points out that masks may seem a 'common sense' solution but actually the data supporting them is relatively weak but there are still some other concerns

There is a critical difference between skepticism of certain things and the anti-vaxxers and CCD. the anti-vaxxers are against vaccines and their 'Gates' conspiracy theory is pathetic. The CCD do not believe in anthropomorphic climate change at all and blame it all on unsupportable theories. In epidemiology no-one has challenged the SEIR model and if they have or say CV doesn't exist then we should ignore them

Saying that people are unsure about taking a vaccine they think may be under tested is another thing, as is challenging the SEIR assumptions that are being used by people such as Ferguson. Nevermind the facemask question which has lots of questions on the 'science' although most of them are pretty lame. Comparing the different arguments like O'Brien did is 'scientific method' unacceptable

On CV-19 O'Brien's comment knocks a hole right in the scientific method and by attempting to stop challenge makes him more like the climate deniers and anti-vaxxers than some of those challenging assumptions often based on credible data analysis. As an empirical measure actually there may be more insight gained from robust data analysis than from the more long-term virology and immunology conclusions. Immunologists are challenging the S assumption in Ferguson's model - are they not allowed to either as it may actually mean that the 70% figure thrown around for population immunity may not be right?

Is anyone who disagrees with this odious know-it-all a crank?


Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Tue 14 Jul, 2020 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 2:06 pm 
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@howsillyofme1

But is there a downside or any risk attached to wearing a face-covering?


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 2:12 pm 
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Well tbf one argument in favour of masks is that their widespread use might make some concerned people more willing to go out of their homes.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 2:16 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
@howsillyofme1

But is there a downside or any risk attached to wearing a face-covering?



If they do not work well then they could well stop people social distancing. Gives a false sense of security. Also, the potential for contamination

Most of the downsides are behavioural rather than scientific but both have to be considered

Who is the bigger risk someone who wears a mask but is symptomatic or someone who isn't but is hasn't got symptoms but doesn't wear a mask?

Then there are my concerns about the 'stopping wearing a mask'. I find the idea of people always wearing a mask pretty dehumanising and unpleasant - it is part of how we interpret emotions or convey them via facial expressions. To remove that part of us just because of 'common sense say it is better' or 'better to be safe than sorry' is difficult for me to accept longer-term. I may be in a minority on that but am happy to stand my ground on it.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 2:20 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Well tbf one argument in favour of masks is that their widespread use might make some concerned people more willing to go out of their homes.


what if it also increases symptomatic people to leave their houses because it is safe to do so if you are wearing a mask?


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 2:27 pm 
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Well yes, I have said before their main drawback is that they might draw some into a false sense of security.

But the from other countries is that they can have a net positive effect. Not a panacea, though. and nobody should imagine otherwise.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 2:29 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
@howsillyofme1

But is there a downside or any risk attached to wearing a face-covering?



If they do not work well then they could well stop people social distancing. Gives a false sense of security. Also, the potential for contamination

Most of the downsides are behavioural rather than scientific but both have to be considered

Who is the bigger risk someone who wears a mask but is symptomatic or someone who isn't but is hasn't got symptoms but doesn't wear a mask?

Then there are my concerns about the 'stopping wearing a mask'. I find the idea of people always wearing a mask pretty dehumanising and unpleasant - it is part of how we interpret emotions or convey them via facial expressions. To remove that part of us just because of 'common sense say it is better' or 'better to be safe than sorry' is difficult for me to accept longer-term. I may be in a minority on that but am happy to stand my ground on it.


Surely it's down to the Government to hammer home the continued need for social distancing. They are, after all, the ones who started the confusing "back to normal" ball rolling. I'm not too worried about the longer-term. If it proves to be safe, non-face covering will quickly become the norm once again.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 2:47 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Well yes, I have said before their main drawback is that they might draw some into a false sense of security.

But the from other countries is that they can have a net positive effect. Not a panacea, though. and nobody should imagine otherwise.



No real problem with this sentiment but the comments of some such as O'Brien go further than they should

Also, in CH we have never taken to face coverings and we have only had 16 deaths since June 1 - some uptick on cases but facemasks only compulsory on public transport and only 2 cantons in shops that was introduced this week

And I hesitate to say the word but Sweden are on a run of 0 fatalities at the moment too - no lockdown and no facemasks still

I am not sure the evidence is anything more than circumstantial - again not an issue with this generally but it make be extrapolated to a false reality which is not what I want to see at all


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 2:57 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Well tbf one argument in favour of masks is that their widespread use might make some concerned people more willing to go out of their homes.


what if it also increases symptomatic people to leave their houses because it is safe to do so if you are wearing a mask?


The problem with this argument is that if you are symptomatic then the advice is very very clear which is to stay and home and seek a test. If you're symptomatic and going to ignore advice and go out then I don't know, obviously, but I suspect that you're going to do that anyway. The issue here should be about people who are asymptomatic but infectious but they are going to go out with or without a mask and are better out with one.

For the people who are going to go out despite being symptomatic, I wonder how that would divide between people who are going to go out whatever, and people who wouldn't without what they perceive as the added security (for others) of them wearing a mask. I'd guess - and it really is just a guess - that the 'whatevers' would be in the significant majority here.

The utility appears to be in wearing a mask and in social distancing. More - much more - it's in having a government who took things seriously from the beginning instead of announcing that they knew better than everybody else. One of the problems we're going to have as we go forward is to expect that we should be able to have the same kind of post-lockdown as other countries that we see and know about despite the fact that, as a reasonable generalisation, we haven't got things under control to anything like the level they have. But we have a government who insist that this is fine and we can get on with it.

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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 3:13 pm 
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I am not making that argument but the data on asymptomatic people is even weaker than those for symptomatic

i a playing devil's advocate here just to be clear and I have no problems wearing a mask but I think we need to be also very open with the fact that the 'science' is not at all conclusive, that there can be behavioural questions too

Here we do not have compulsory face masks in most places and 10-20% of people wear them.......are the Swiss all idiots?

We are down at pretty much 0 deaths and very few cases with mot of the issues coming from nightclubs - what metric are we looking to improve in if we are already at very low cases/hospitalizations/deaths after 2 months post-lockdown? The locals here need convincing to be honest


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 3:18 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Well tbf one argument in favour of masks is that their widespread use might make some concerned people more willing to go out of their homes.


what if it also increases symptomatic people to leave their houses because it is safe to do so if you are wearing a mask?
it's not safe


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 3:22 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Well tbf one argument in favour of masks is that their widespread use might make some concerned people more willing to go out of their homes.


what if it also increases symptomatic people to leave their houses because it is safe to do so if you are wearing a mask?
it's not safe


I know that, you know that and we know that but if you listen to the rhetoric on facemasks they seem to be the panacea to this whole epidemic which they most definitely aren't

Fault is the Governments for being useless and now we have ended up in a proxy culture war with all sorts of nonsense being spoken

If you want masks be like France or Germany and make them compulsory with a clear message reinforcing distancing etc - no arguments and that leaves no room for discussion!


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 3:23 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
twat

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/12 ... 6293620737

this is what I am talking about!
Isn't that in his job description?


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 3:26 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
It's not safe
---
I know that, you know that and we know that but if you listen to the rhetoric on facemasks they seem to be the panacea to this whole epidemic which they most definitely aren't

Fault is the Governments for being useless and now we have ended up in a proxy culture war with all sorts of nonsense being spoken

If you want masks be like France or Germany and make them compulsory with a clear message reinforcing distancing etc - no arguments and that leaves no room for discussion!
(cJA edit)
I agree.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 3:37 pm 
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People wearing masks is a reminder COVID-19 isn't gone.
I think it'll be a good thing. I think it'll reduce infections.


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 4:00 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
I am not making that argument but the data on asymptomatic people is even weaker than those for symptomatic

i a playing devil's advocate here just to be clear and I have no problems wearing a mask but I think we need to be also very open with the fact that the 'science' is not at all conclusive, that there can be behavioural questions too

Here we do not have compulsory face masks in most places and 10-20% of people wear them.......are the Swiss all idiots?

We are down at pretty much 0 deaths and very few cases with mot of the issues coming from nightclubs - what metric are we looking to improve in if we are already at very low cases/hospitalizations/deaths after 2 months post-lockdown? The locals here need convincing to be honest


Yes, point taken. It's not the answer in the same way that 'washing your hands' isn't the answer. One of the jobs of government, or perhaps of 'leadership' more generally, is to try to develop a a clear strategy about how to utilise a range of 'gains', even if individually some of them are small and even if individually or together they come with trade offs about behaviours in particular. That's what's missing here, not an earlier expressed and enforced policy about face covering.

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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 4:05 pm 
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CCn800cFIbe ... gn=loading

oh fabulous


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 4:08 pm 
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for those interested

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ec5MAqzXgAA ... =4096x4096


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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jul, 2020 4:10 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
twat

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/12 ... 6293620737

this is what I am talking about!


I'm afraid I got sucked in by that one & have futilely spent the afternoon arguing that asking questions about compulsory mask use & expecting the govt to set out the evidence & reasoning for their decision is not the same as denying climate change. We need to reach a considered consensus, not attack people with doubts and paint all with concerns as selfish. I want proper informative debate, not culture wars. I got a few intelligent exchanges but was also blindly attacked by some for not falling into line and automatically accepting that compulsory face masks are all good with no drawbacks. O'Brien no doubt attracted lots of clicks.

I then got the following reply and decided to give up for the day:
Quote:
We have been scammed.
COVID19 symptoms are caused by onion mould knowingly and illegally being dispersed throughout the world "supply chain"over the past 6 months by the Corporate Machine whose foundations are in slavery.


Like, woah! :o

Edited to add PTO. We have moved on to page no 2.

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Last edited by Willow904 on Tue 14 Jul, 2020 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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