Tuesday 14th October 2014

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StephenDolan
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by StephenDolan »

AngryAsWell wrote:Britain Elects ‏@britainelects · 4m4 minutes ago
National Opinion Poll (YouGov):
LAB - 34% (=)
CON - 30% (-1)
UKIP - 18% (+1)
LDEM - 8% (+1)
More bad news for Miliband.
Temulkar
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by Temulkar »

ErnstRemarx wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
Rebecca wrote: Well,you can roll around laughing all you like,but when you've dusted yourself off,maybe remember that the Greens have only one MP,just a few less than Labour I'm sure you will agree,and that Green policies will never have to stand the test of reality.
There will be a Green government in my lifetime, As long as I havent died in the enviromental catastrophe that brings it to power of course. I used to think my sixties or seventies, I'm betting mid fifties these days. :mrgreen:
Upon what do you base that belief Tem? I simply ask because there's not a recorded groundswell (yet, perhaps) of support for the Greens that might translate into seats, and the only example of a Green council is hardly without its own controversies.

I have a belief that a socialist/communist government will sweep away the rotting dregs of Toryism in about 10 years time. And I've offered the same evidence.
Because I think we are at a point where human society faces a fundemental challenge to it's survival. That means dramatic social change. The 21st century is not going to be pretty (it already isnt) and we either organise to survive or we wont, not in any meaningful social form. We really are living through the last days of Rome.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

StephenDolan wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Britain Elects ‏@britainelects · 4m4 minutes ago
National Opinion Poll (YouGov):
LAB - 34% (=)
CON - 30% (-1)
UKIP - 18% (+1)
LDEM - 8% (+1)
More bad news for Miliband.
:lol:

TBF I'd like to see Labour a good few points higher than that, but yes so much for that Tory lead eh?

It'll be all over the media I imagine. Oh….
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adam
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by adam »

AngryAsWell wrote:Britain Elects ‏@britainelects · 4m4 minutes ago
National Opinion Poll (YouGov):
LAB - 34% (=)
CON - 30% (-1)
UKIP - 18% (+1)
LDEM - 8% (+1)
UKIP's highest ever rating with YouGov, according to The Sun Politics twitter feed.

(fucking opinion polls, I can't believe I'm regularly looking at something published by the sun).
I still believe in a town called Hope
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ErnstRemarx
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by ErnstRemarx »

Temulkar wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@Temulkar

I've enjoyed thinking about the Greens' manifesto this evening. Thanks for the info.

I think what folk may find upsetting is the use of "you" in your posts that feels to me like you are implying that everyone here who supports Labour is a homogeneous mass of zombies incapable of critiquing Labour policy. In fact it's quite obvious that no one party will represent a single person's views exactly, especially under FPTP. So we all make choices as how to best express our personal political views at the ballot box.
I certainly don't think people here are a homogenous blob, I do think people here are incredibly tribal about labour. Look at the discussion about Owen Jones because he dared to criticise labour. I actually don't think that is good for the site, but I digress.

What really surprises me is people on here tend to be far further to the left of the party they support and espouse.
We're realists.

It's called trying to retrieve a party that was once very sound and then became dodgy and then we thought, wooooah, if we let it fall into the hands of that lot then we're all perpetually fucked, and I do hope that fellow travellers might sympathise and lend a bit of support, even if they can't give us a big thumbs up.

I'm left of centre, but I'll work my arse off to make Labour proper left. And I really don't think that slagging people like me off is productive. I've worked fucking hard to get where we are and to be told that I'm part of a right wing Borg doesn't raise much of a smile. I've had too many meetings and too many demos to take that accusation without getting a wee bit uppity about it.

I fucking know that Labour isn't perfect Tem. I know it. I really, really fucking do. But I also know that come May 2015, I have a choice between a range of insanely right wing parties and one that might be less so, and, given my input, might be better than that.

Now, you can tell me that I'm deluded or in the wrong party - it's possible you're actually right - but you'll argue long into the night that a vote for the Greens in a marginal is a good idea, or that Brighton council's record as a Green council is easily defensible. Being in opposition is a piece of piss. Being in power becomes very awkward and you can end up in situations where you'd really rather not be - as I know only too well, having had to vote through gritted teeth for redundancies.

Try standing for council or as an MP. Give it a whizz. Then come back and lecture us further on ideological purity.
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ErnstRemarx
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by ErnstRemarx »

Temulkar wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:
Temulkar wrote: There will be a Green government in my lifetime, As long as I havent died in the enviromental catastrophe that brings it to power of course. I used to think my sixties or seventies, I'm betting mid fifties these days. :mrgreen:
Upon what do you base that belief Tem? I simply ask because there's not a recorded groundswell (yet, perhaps) of support for the Greens that might translate into seats, and the only example of a Green council is hardly without its own controversies.

I have a belief that a socialist/communist government will sweep away the rotting dregs of Toryism in about 10 years time. And I've offered the same evidence.
Because I think we are at a point where human society faces a fundemental challenge to it's survival. That means dramatic social change. The 21st century is not going to be pretty (it already isnt) and we either organise to survive or we wont, not in any meaningful social form. We really are living through the last days of Rome.
You could be correct. I'd like a little back up please.
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

adam wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Britain Elects ‏@britainelects · 4m4 minutes ago
National Opinion Poll (YouGov):
LAB - 34% (=)
CON - 30% (-1)
UKIP - 18% (+1)
LDEM - 8% (+1)
UKIP's highest ever rating with YouGov, according to The Sun Politics twitter feed.

(fucking opinion polls, I can't believe I'm regularly looking at something published by the sun).
I've suddenly decided I do want UKIP to win in Rochester and a few more. As I said earlier wherever they have councillors they lose them. We need to stop Farage being able to ponce around with his 18% never having to put his money where his ample mouth is. Let's see them trying to actually represent real people in their constituencies and see how they get on.

Reckless looks set to win in Rochester, despite the wise choice from the Tories of plausible female candidates. It will be a disaster for Dave. The calls for a pact will get louder and probably result in more defections.

It's not pretty but hey.
HindleA
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by HindleA »

Telegraph stating that Tories(er I thought they were in a coalition) will cut inheritance tax before the next election .
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TheGrimSqueaker
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

ErnstRemarx wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@Temulkar

I've enjoyed thinking about the Greens' manifesto this evening. Thanks for the info.

I think what folk may find upsetting is the use of "you" in your posts that feels to me like you are implying that everyone here who supports Labour is a homogeneous mass of zombies incapable of critiquing Labour policy. In fact it's quite obvious that no one party will represent a single person's views exactly, especially under FPTP. So we all make choices as how to best express our personal political views at the ballot box.
I certainly don't think people here are a homogenous blob, I do think people here are incredibly tribal about labour. Look at the discussion about Owen Jones because he dared to criticise labour. I actually don't think that is good for the site, but I digress.

What really surprises me is people on here tend to be far further to the left of the party they support and espouse.
We're realists.

It's called trying to retrieve a party that was once very sound and then became dodgy and then we thought, wooooah, if we let it fall into the hands of that lot then we're all perpetually fucked, and I do hope that fellow travellers might sympathise and lend a bit of support, even if they can't give us a big thumbs up.

I'm left of centre, but I'll work my arse off to make Labour proper left. And I really don't think that slagging people like me off is productive. I've worked fucking hard to get where we are and to be told that I'm part of a right wing Borg doesn't raise much of a smile. I've had too many meetings and too many demos to take that accusation without getting a wee bit uppity about it.

I fucking know that Labour isn't perfect Tem. I know it. I really, really fucking do. But I also know that come May 2015, I have a choice between a range of insanely right wing parties and one that might be less so, and, given my input, might be better than that.

Now, you can tell me that I'm deluded or in the wrong party - it's possibly you're actually right - but you'll argue long into the night that a vote for the Greens in a marginal is a good idea, or that Brighton council's record as a Green council is easily defensible. Being in opposition is a piece of piss. Being in power becomes very awkward and you can end up in situations where you'd really rather not be - as I know only too well, having had to vote through gritted teeth for redundancies.

Try standing for council or as an MP. Give it a whizz. Then come back and lecture us further on ideological purity.
Thank you. You put into words pretty much how I feel about things, and in rather more restrained language than I was managing in the posts I was preparing (and deleting).
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by RogerOThornhill »

HindleA wrote:Telegraph stating that Tories(er I thought they were in a coalition) will cut inheritance tax before the next election .
That was something that AS picked up earlier from cameron.

never mind that the HoC library note said that fewer than 4% of estates actually pay it.

Cameron's' words...
To me inheritance tax is a tax that should be paid by the very wealthy. I think you should be able to pass a family home on to your children rather than leave it to the taxman
How many kids are still living at home and would simply take over their parent's house? Very few I would have thought.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Just wondrin'...how much dirt can be thrown at Labour over Rotherham - and potentially Manchester if News at Ten is right - if the coverup over sexual abuse in the 80s can be booted into the long grass?

The longer it goes on, the more people will forget about the fact that we're supposed to be having an investigation.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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TechnicalEphemera
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

Temulkar wrote:What was it you said about Kha not using the vote green get dave slogan?
Khan said: “Whether we like it or not, our electoral system means that every vote for the Green party makes a Tory government more likely. I don’t want to scare people, but that’s the truth.
Of course Labour will use the vote Green get Dave slogan, largely because it is true in a handful of marginals. It is the nature of FPTP. Fundamentally it isn't going to work on the Green vote at current levels, but it will probably push a few of the border line voters back into Labours camp.

Dave will be using the vote UKIP get Ed line, and of course we will get Labour/Tories (delete as appropriate) cannot win here from the Zombie party.
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Temulkar
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by Temulkar »

ErnstRemarx wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@Temulkar

I've enjoyed thinking about the Greens' manifesto this evening. Thanks for the info.

I think what folk may find upsetting is the use of "you" in your posts that feels to me like you are implying that everyone here who supports Labour is a homogeneous mass of zombies incapable of critiquing Labour policy. In fact it's quite obvious that no one party will represent a single person's views exactly, especially under FPTP. So we all make choices as how to best express our personal political views at the ballot box.
I certainly don't think people here are a homogenous blob, I do think people here are incredibly tribal about labour. Look at the discussion about Owen Jones because he dared to criticise labour. I actually don't think that is good for the site, but I digress.

What really surprises me is people on here tend to be far further to the left of the party they support and espouse.
We're realists.

It's called trying to retrieve a party that was once very sound and then became dodgy and then we thought, wooooah, if we let it fall into the hands of that lot then we're all perpetually fucked, and I do hope that fellow travellers might sympathise and lend a bit of support, even if they can't give us a big thumbs up.

I'm left of centre, but I'll work my arse off to make Labour proper left. And I really don't think that slagging people like me off is productive. I've worked fucking hard to get where we are and to be told that I'm part of a right wing Borg doesn't raise much of a smile. I've had too many meetings and too many demos to take that accusation without getting a wee bit uppity about it.

I fucking know that Labour isn't perfect Tem. I know it. I really, really fucking do. But I also know that come May 2015, I have a choice between a range of insanely right wing parties and one that might be less so, and, given my input, might be better than that.

Now, you can tell me that I'm deluded or in the wrong party - it's possible you're actually right - but you'll argue long into the night that a vote for the Greens in a marginal is a good idea, or that Brighton council's record as a Green council is easily defensible. Being in opposition is a piece of piss. Being in power becomes very awkward and you can end up in situations where you'd really rather not be - as I know only too well, having had to vote through gritted teeth for redundancies.

Try standing for council or as an MP. Give it a whizz. Then come back and lecture us further on ideological purity.
Mate as I said I am not having a go at you.

I think I will leave politics till I have sold a few novels a la mensch ;)
Temulkar
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by Temulkar »

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Temulkar wrote:What was it you said about Kha not using the vote green get dave slogan?
Khan said: “Whether we like it or not, our electoral system means that every vote for the Green party makes a Tory government more likely. I don’t want to scare people, but that’s the truth.
Of course Labour will use the vote Green get Dave slogan, largely because it is true in a handful of marginals. It is the nature of FPTP. Fundamentally it isn't going to work on the Green vote at current levels, but it will probably push a few of the border line voters back into Labours camp.

Dave will be using the vote UKIP get Ed line, and of course we will get Labour/Tories (delete as appropriate) cannot win here from the Zombie party.
Well, it's a tactic that is doing stunningly well for the tories against UKIP isn't it.
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Temulkar wrote:What was it you said about Kha not using the vote green get dave slogan?
Khan said: “Whether we like it or not, our electoral system means that every vote for the Green party makes a Tory government more likely. I don’t want to scare people, but that’s the truth.
Ha, ha.

But I guess you'll be doing "all the parties are the same".
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by 55DegreesNorth »

Temulkar wrote:
55DegreesNorth wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
http://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/vir ... h_actually" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

RogerOThornhill wrote:Just wondrin'...how much dirt can be thrown at Labour over Rotherham - and potentially Manchester if News at Ten is right - if the coverup over sexual abuse in the 80s can be booted into the long grass?

The longer it goes on, the more people will forget about the fact that we're supposed to be having an investigation.
Seems to be allegations v the Police primarily.

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-10-14/itv- ... -failings/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Ah, Council's Children's Services "inadequate" in September.

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2014/09/ ... ted-finds/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Doubtless Pickles will say its nothing to do with him.
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TechnicalEphemera
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

Temulkar wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Temulkar wrote:What was it you said about Kha not using the vote green get dave slogan?
Of course Labour will use the vote Green get Dave slogan, largely because it is true in a handful of marginals. It is the nature of FPTP. Fundamentally it isn't going to work on the Green vote at current levels, but it will probably push a few of the border line voters back into Labours camp.

Dave will be using the vote UKIP get Ed line, and of course we will get Labour/Tories (delete as appropriate) cannot win here from the Zombie party.
Well, it's a tactic that is doing stunningly well for the tories against UKIP isn't it.
Don't know really, it hasn't been tested in anger yet. Nobody cares who they elect in by-elections, so we cannot learn anything from them as far as the GE goes. Will those Tory voters continue to stay in the Kipper fold when faced with the danger of a Labour government? DFH would say no, other analysis suggests not enough will switch back to make a huge difference.

My experience of any by-election is that it is a head to head and once the winners are identified the other parties get massively squeezed in tactical voting. To a degree this explains some aspects of H&M once the poll identified UKIP as the anti Labour vote the Tory vote jumped ship. I suspect the Tories are toast in RS for the same reason, and Labour will get squeezed because they are the third party. Vote UKIP get Dave (lynched) is a fairly convincing tag line.
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

I think Reckless might not be the shoe-in some say.

He's had 5 fewer years to build a following than Carswell, and the constituency isn't as UKIP friendly.

Wouldn't write off the Tories yet. There'll be a heck of an effort.
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by howsillyofme1 »

RogerOThornhill wrote:
HindleA wrote:Telegraph stating that Tories(er I thought they were in a coalition) will cut inheritance tax before the next election .
That was something that AS picked up earlier from cameron.

never mind that the HoC library note said that fewer than 4% of estates actually pay it.

Cameron's' words...
To me inheritance tax is a tax that should be paid by the very wealthy. I think you should be able to pass a family home on to your children rather than leave it to the taxman
How many kids are still living at home and would simply take over their parent's house? Very few I would have thought.
Very few I would imagine....and it could be made an exception if the house was going to be continued to be used as a primary residence...it is people inheriting houses off parents and selling it for a fortune and having that tax free that annoys me, especially when it was from a discounted council house

Here in Swissiland, all inheritances are taxed at a level depending on the relationship between the deceased and the inheritor. Also, there is a capital gains tax on property sale profit unless it is used to purchase another property

It beggars belief that they are cutting taxes rather than looking at increasing them.....property capital gains and inheritance tax could be two that could be introduced or widened along with a Land Value Tax (yes, I have to pay that as well!)
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I think Reckless might not be the shoe-in some say.

He's had 5 fewer years to build a following than Carswell, and the constituency isn't as UKIP friendly.

Wouldn't write off the Tories yet. There'll be a heck of an effort.

I think you are right about it not being a shoo-in but the risks are much higher from Cameron.....if he loses this one then it really puts him under pressure

O think, though, Cameron has been quite a lucky PM - if you look at by-elections the majority have been in Labour seats and very few Labour/Con marginals which is a surprise seeing how many of them they are. Corby is the only one of the top of my head......and it has hindered Labour momentum

The second reason he is lucky that, in general, he gets an easy ride from the press. Many don't like him but he is preferable than Miliband. I am convinced this is linked to Leveson and him kicking it into the tall grass (as well as his focus on treats for the rich) - even Private Eye is being gentle with him
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

Of course I may agree with Tem that we are indeed on the verge of a significant climate disaster. We have certainly passed Peak Oil and I see no compelling alternatives emerging to fix our reliance on it for transport (although the progress on Solar is looking promising for non UK).

However it doesn't follow that the Greens will benefit from this crunch. As the world becomes more hostile, the elites and the middle classes will fight harder to hang on to what they have. So potentially you will see the rise of authoritarian UKIP like parties keeping the great unwashed down and using force of arms to secure what little resources are left. Democracy will be constrained by fear and eventually we will slip into the sort of one party semi democracy you get in Russia.

I think this is a far more likely scenario than one where the Greens or a Socialist party triumphs. I am not happy about that. See SF oddity Charlie Jade for such a world.
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by howsillyofme1 »

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Of course I may agree with Tem that we are indeed on the verge of a significant climate disaster. We have certainly passed Peak Oil and I see no compelling alternatives emerging to fix our reliance on it for transport (although the progress on Solar is looking promising for non UK).

However it doesn't follow that the Greens will benefit from this crunch. As the world becomes more hostile, the elites and the middle classes will fight harder to hang on to what they have. So potentially you will see the rise of authoritarian UKIP like parties keeping the great unwashed down and using force of arms to secure what little resources are left. Democracy will be constrained by fear and eventually we will slip into the sort of one party semi democracy you get in Russia.

I think this is a far more likely scenario than one where the Greens or a Socialist party triumphs. I am not happy about that. See SF oddity Charlie Jade for such a world.

I think we have also passed 'peak democracy' as well.....
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I think Reckless might not be the shoe-in some say.

He's had 5 fewer years to build a following than Carswell, and the constituency isn't as UKIP friendly.

Wouldn't write off the Tories yet. There'll be a heck of an effort.

I think you are right about it not being a shoo-in but the risks are much higher from Cameron.....if he loses this one then it really puts him under pressure

O think, though, Cameron has been quite a lucky PM - if you look at by-elections the majority have been in Labour seats and very few Labour/Con marginals which is a surprise seeing how many of them they are. Corby is the only one of the top of my head......and it has hindered Labour momentum

The second reason he is lucky that, in general, he gets an easy ride from the press. Many don't like him but he is preferable than Miliband. I am convinced this is linked to Leveson and him kicking it into the tall grass (as well as his focus on treats for the rich) - even Private Eye is being gentle with him
Won't save him in Rochester. The press are talking up UKIP (See John Hindenburg Humphries) and the nation is in the mood to give Dave a bloody good kicking.
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Of course I may agree with Tem that we are indeed on the verge of a significant climate disaster. We have certainly passed Peak Oil and I see no compelling alternatives emerging to fix our reliance on it for transport (although the progress on Solar is looking promising for non UK).

However it doesn't follow that the Greens will benefit from this crunch. As the world becomes more hostile, the elites and the middle classes will fight harder to hang on to what they have. So potentially you will see the rise of authoritarian UKIP like parties keeping the great unwashed down and using force of arms to secure what little resources are left. Democracy will be constrained by fear and eventually we will slip into the sort of one party semi democracy you get in Russia.

I think this is a far more likely scenario than one where the Greens or a Socialist party triumphs. I am not happy about that. See SF oddity Charlie Jade for such a world.

I think we have also passed 'peak democracy' as well.....
We certainly have all the elements we need for a police state, we just need the right government to put it together.
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by howsillyofme1 »

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I think Reckless might not be the shoe-in some say.

He's had 5 fewer years to build a following than Carswell, and the constituency isn't as UKIP friendly.

Wouldn't write off the Tories yet. There'll be a heck of an effort.

I think you are right about it not being a shoo-in but the risks are much higher from Cameron.....if he loses this one then it really puts him under pressure

O think, though, Cameron has been quite a lucky PM - if you look at by-elections the majority have been in Labour seats and very few Labour/Con marginals which is a surprise seeing how many of them they are. Corby is the only one of the top of my head......and it has hindered Labour momentum

The second reason he is lucky that, in general, he gets an easy ride from the press. Many don't like him but he is preferable than Miliband. I am convinced this is linked to Leveson and him kicking it into the tall grass (as well as his focus on treats for the rich) - even Private Eye is being gentle with him
Won't save him in Rochester. The press are talking up UKIP (See John Hindenburg Humphries) and the nation is in the mood to give Dave a bloody good kicking.
I think you are probably right - if he loses this one then it turns my idea of being 'lucky' on its head. If he throws resources at it and loses surely his authority is shot? Media will still focus on Labour being squeezed though :wall:
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by TechnicalEphemera »

RobertSnozers wrote:I can't believe this. For days I've been staying up late trying to write a post on the Green vs Labour debate. Each time I have not been able to write something I was happy with, and deleted before sending. Tonight I finally hit send. Only more posts had been made in the meantime. I revised the post. I hit send. More posts had been made. I hit send again. 'The connection to the site has been lost'. And so has my post.

I think the universe wants me to stay out of it.
FTN's most annoying feature.

But it is always easier to re-write it from memory than write it the first time.
Release the Guardvarks.
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refitman
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by refitman »

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:I can't believe this. For days I've been staying up late trying to write a post on the Green vs Labour debate. Each time I have not been able to write something I was happy with, and deleted before sending. Tonight I finally hit send. Only more posts had been made in the meantime. I revised the post. I hit send. More posts had been made. I hit send again. 'The connection to the site has been lost'. And so has my post.

I think the universe wants me to stay out of it.
FTN's most annoying feature.

But it is always easier to re-write it from memory than write it the first time.
I have disabled 'Post Review', that keeps you in the editor if someone else posts before you hit submit. Drives me up the wall, I have habit of typing something, pressing 'Submit' and then switching to another tab. Only to come back 20mins later to find it still waiting there. :wall:
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by HindleA »

Labour sets out housing plan

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by RogerOThornhill »

refitman wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:I can't believe this. For days I've been staying up late trying to write a post on the Green vs Labour debate. Each time I have not been able to write something I was happy with, and deleted before sending. Tonight I finally hit send. Only more posts had been made in the meantime. I revised the post. I hit send. More posts had been made. I hit send again. 'The connection to the site has been lost'. And so has my post.

I think the universe wants me to stay out of it.
FTN's most annoying feature.

But it is always easier to re-write it from memory than write it the first time.
I have disabled 'Post Review', that keeps you in the editor if someone else posts before you hit submit. Drives me up the wall, I have habit of typing something, pressing 'Submit' and then switching to another tab. Only to come back 20mins later to find it still waiting there. :wall:
Yes I do that....happened so many times.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by RogerOThornhill »

I've just remembered...whatever happened to that brilliant wheeze where everyone was gong to get a statement showing where their tax dollars were being spent - so that they could gasp with horror at how much they were forking out on 'welfare'.

Fell flat on its arse presumably.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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refitman
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by refitman »

RogerOThornhill wrote:I've just remembered...whatever happened to that brilliant wheeze where everyone was gong to get a statement showing where their tax dollars were being spent - so that they could gasp with horror at how much they were forking out on 'welfare'.

Fell flat on its arse presumably.
I'm still waiting to see Dave & George's tax returns. You know, the ones they were so relaxed about publishing.
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LadyCentauria
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by LadyCentauria »

Temulkar wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:''I know you tribalists wont like that but to the rest of the left that is all you are''

Even when you try to be conciliatory you can't help being insulting can you Tem?
It's not about being insulting; it's pointing out the consequences of 20 years of Blairism and new Labour. In people and many policies you are indistinguishable from the tory party, and vast swathes of the general public feel that, hence the 'all the same,' comments and the rise of the kippers. The only sop to the left is to be a little less nasty when you do it. Labour is part of a political consensus of the centre that has existed unchallenged since the early 90s.

That's not to dig at people here who I know are decent people, generally with a left wing view, but it is stating an uncomfortable reality for labour loyalists. However, I really don't think the party can heal itself until it really faces what it has become.

As for costings taxes financial policy etc http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ec.html#EC730
Thanks for the link, @Temulkar. I'll read it at my leisure – I've tried finding my way around the Green Party's website in the past but found it nearly as difficult as I've found Labour's ones. I can't find my way around yourbritain (where Lab's policy discussion papers are) at all, and people think me quite techy ;)

I think there's a lot of scope for a Basic Citizen's Income replacing most existing benefits and that a way should be found to do it, if only to remove the stigma on claimants. I'm not sure how it would be delivered to those in work, though, unless as a supplement to the tax-free allowance. It could lead to savings in terms of paper-work and decision-makers; the latter, though, might lead to redundancies in the Civil Service, which is not necessarily desirable. However, an automatic entitlement to BCI could help return the JobCentres (Plus, or otherwise) to what the PCWU (?) really want them to be, ie., a proper employment agency with a skills development facility and careers advisory service.

And, it would allow those who can live frugally to devote their time to volunteering, or working a small number of part-time hours, or staying at home for their children or to care for adult relations or friends, and (for those who can) becoming more self-sufficient through growing food and/of through craft projects. It would, also, allow people to study part-time or full-time without having to take employment to support themselves, which eats into the time students should be devoting to 'homework' and background study, let alone widening their social horizons and interests.

Just some thoughts from a lefty-socialist who used to have an allotment but now just has a garden and a subscription to Permaculture Magazine and Mother Earth News ;) (Too much typing, too tired to proof-read...)
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by LadyCentauria »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I think Reckless might not be the shoe-in some say.

He's had 5 fewer years to build a following than Carswell, and the constituency isn't as UKIP friendly.

Wouldn't write off the Tories yet. There'll be a heck of an effort.
There is a heck of an effort! In the past three days my father has had two letters from the Conservatives (one personally from Cameron) and two from UKIP (one a personal letter from Reckless). The first two he binned but returned the pre-paid envelopes empty. The second two were the personal ones. Cameron's, as I think most people know by now, was an invitation to decide between the two local lady Councillors who have been put forward for the PPC position by taking part and voting in their 'Open Primary'.

The one from Reckless says how Reckless has realised, since defecting, that. "The Tories really are the Nasty Party because they and their supporters have been horrible to him and he has had to move with his family to a safe-house. Also, he truly supports a lot of Labour policies but they don't stand any chance of being elected in the Rochester & Strood Constituency as is since the boundary changes; and UKIP will take care of all the things that Labour are calling for anyway, so he chose them." That's my father's précis of it, any road, and I sent him a late night message asking if he could scan it and send it to me so, if he does I'll post it here for discussion/dissection/dartboard purposes...

He hasn't heard from Labour, yet, which rather disappoints him.
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by LadyCentauria »

refitman wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:I can't believe this. For days I've been staying up late trying to write a post on the Green vs Labour debate. Each time I have not been able to write something I was happy with, and deleted before sending. Tonight I finally hit send. Only more posts had been made in the meantime. I revised the post. I hit send. More posts had been made. I hit send again. 'The connection to the site has been lost'. And so has my post.

I think the universe wants me to stay out of it.
FTN's most annoying feature.

But it is always easier to re-write it from memory than write it the first time.
I have disabled 'Post Review', that keeps you in the editor if someone else posts before you hit submit. Drives me up the wall, I have habit of typing something, pressing 'Submit' and then switching to another tab. Only to come back 20mins later to find it still waiting there. :wall:
Have you disabled Post Review for all users? Or is there a way for each of us to do it? It drives me mad, too!
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Re: Tuesday 14th October 2014

Post by refitman »

LadyCentauria wrote:
refitman wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: FTN's most annoying feature.

But it is always easier to re-write it from memory than write it the first time.
I have disabled 'Post Review', that keeps you in the editor if someone else posts before you hit submit. Drives me up the wall, I have habit of typing something, pressing 'Submit' and then switching to another tab. Only to come back 20mins later to find it still waiting there. :wall:
Have you disabled Post Review for all users? Or is there a way for each of us to do it? It drives me mad, too!
It's for all users.
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