Tuesday 14th October 2014

[Temulkar]

I mean are Labrou going to argue against or adopt these policies? If they argue against will you blindly go on supporting them?

- £10 minimum wage
The minimum wage offered by Labour is tied to the medium wage so would rise as that does - will yours be tied ?
- Basic income
Nice idea but before I would vote for that I'd like to know how it would/could be paid for.
- Increase of the state pension from £97/week to £170/week
See above
- Renationalisation of the railways and energy sector
See above
- Abolition of tuition fees
I understand during first term it will be dropped to 6k than reduced as finances allow
- EU referendum
I don't want one
- Against TTIP
The trade agreement TTIP id just that, a trade agreement. The controversial part, investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS), has already been "red lined" by the EU Social Democrat group, of which Labour are a member, the rest of the agreement is still under negotiation (have put some links at end about it) http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ttip-labour-wi ... ds-1453082" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Close up tax loopholes
That is on everyone's mind including Labour
- House of Lords reform
Not that bothered at the moment - more important things to get sorted
- 'Robin Hood tax' (Google it)
I don't have to "google it" thanks.
- Donations from corporations/tax avoiders etc are not accepted
Don't know Labour position on that but seems fair enough to me.
- Monetary/banking reform
Banking reform is being discussed with small regional bank proposed - more to it than that, but not an area I know a lot about.
- Free home insulation programme
They did it last time
- Save the NHS from privatisation and cuts
How many times do they have to say it?
- More liberal drug laws
No thank you
- restorative/rehabilitative justice to reduce crime and re-offending
I think it was Labour brought reforms to restorative/rehabilitative justice
- End fractional reserve banking
See banking reforms above
- Free home insulation scheme to keep energy bills down
Is that for 2nd homes
- Investment in public services
Need to be a bit more specific,
- No more counter-productive austerity
Much as we would like to we can't just "forget" our debts but the proposed house building will help kick start the economy and though growth help limit austerity

Not sure why you are being so aggressive ? Is it really not possible for Greens and Labour to work closer together?

TTIP links
The Regulatory Part http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 151605.pdf
State of Play of TTIP negotiations after the 6th round1 29 July 2014 http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 152699.pdf
Trade policy and you http://ec.europa.eu/trade/trade-policy-and-you/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm sure there are lots of people who would like to see more cooperation between the Greens and Labour, while recognising that some like Temulkar really don't.

If Labour offered a genuine socialist alternative rather than tory lite,(I know you tribalists wont like that but to the rest of the left that is all you are)I would happily work with/for them. If Labour adopted a pro environment stance rather than kowtowing to vested interests, I would tear up my Green membership.

So, get rid of UNUM's influence, go on, that would win some of us back, abolish the WCA, that would help, commit to state ownership of vital services and you would get a flood of us back.

You can't and won't offer any of that.

Honestly not being aggressive. Ive been chuckling ever since I heard about Sadiq's appointment because Labour cant offer me or the vast majority of my party anything.

If you move even a smidgen leftwards you will create a new SDP, even Milliband's lip service to left wing ideology creates panic in the party. Without moving left you cant win back green voters. You are caught, like the tories, in a centrist mess of your own creation.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Is there any deficit reduction plan anywhere?

[letsskiptotheleft]

''I know you tribalists wont like that but to the rest of the left that is all you are''

Even when you try to be conciliatory you can't help being insulting can you Tem?

[AngryAsWell]

Practically, how do we do this ?
Renationalisation of the railways and energy sector

Both are owned fully or in part by other Countries. Imagine the international outcry if we just "took them back", so that's out of the question.
So where do we get the money to buy them back? We cant just print it as it would devalue fast as the quantity needed left the press.
Realistically and practically - how do we renationalise ?
Serious question, and like wise with basic income, no tuition fees, and increased pension?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Restorative Justice is apparently being piloted by Chris Grayling.

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/dec ... eme-courts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TechnicalEphemera]

Is there any deficit reduction plan anywhere?

I love end fractional reserve banking. Utter utter bollocks, ten year old style. If a serious party advocated that they would be laughed off the platform and their vote would drop by about 10 points.

The reality is I get why people feel they can't vote Labour because they aren't left wing enough. In my youth I had to argue with muppets demanding a Benn Heffer leadership ticket. At least it is more logical than that.

However the Greens are not a serious party and they aren't subjected to the same constraints, media pressure and scrutiny that major parties are.

This means they can string together a left wing wish list and seek to carve out a niche in that electoral space. Vote for them, don't vote for them whatever. But don't pretend that is a serious platform or that they could deliver any of it.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Train franchises are nationalized just by not renewing them.

They vary in quality. If I could believe the government would actually try and compete for most of them, I'd support the policy wholeheartedly. But the apparent willingness to sell Eurostar doesn't encourage me.

I suppose it ought to at least encourage companies to do more to win their franchises.

[letsskiptotheleft]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... lly-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good God! A positive article about Labour, admittedly from Hattersley, in the Guardian.

[AngryAsWell]

Train franchises are nationalized just by not renewing them.

They vary in quality. If I could believe the government would actually try and compete for most of them, I'd support the policy wholeheartedly. But the apparent willingness to sell Eurostar doesn't encourage me.

I suppose it ought to at least encourage companies to do more to win their franchises.

That's a long term solution, as some contracts are up to 15 years (I think) so it can hardly go in a manifesto as "renationalisation" as though it will happen on day 1. Surely "will not renew contracts" is more honest.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Is there any deficit reduction plan anywhere?

I love end fractional reserve banking. Utter utter bollocks, ten year old style. If a serious party advocated that they would be laughed off the platform and their vote would drop by about 10 points.

The reality is I get why people feel they can't vote Labour because they aren't left wing enough. In my youth I had to argue with muppets demanding a Benn Heffer leadership ticket. At least it is more logical than that.

However the Greens are not a serious party and they aren't subjected to the same constraints, media pressure and scrutiny that major parties are.

This means they can string together a left wing wish list and seek to carve out a niche in that electoral space. Vote for them, don't vote for them whatever. But don't pretend that is a serious platform or that they could deliver any of it.

Those policies look like a load of people with particular bees in their bonnets getting together and all agreeing to each others' bees, because they're all radicals in it together.

It's not just the spending commitments, it's that they all happen while building a different type of (unproven) economic model that I find implausible.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Train franchises are nationalized just by not renewing them.

They vary in quality. If I could believe the government would actually try and compete for most of them, I'd support the policy wholeheartedly. But the apparent willingness to sell Eurostar doesn't encourage me.

I suppose it ought to at least encourage companies to do more to win their franchises.

That's a long term solution, as some contracts are up to 15 years (I think) so it can hardly go in a manifesto as "renationalisation" as though it will happen on day 1. Surely "will not renew contracts" is more honest.

I think it's a fair enough word.

Lots of franchises up in the near future, as I recall. The public would understand what was happening and see it happening.

[Temulkar]

''I know you tribalists wont like that but to the rest of the left that is all you are''

Even when you try to be conciliatory you can't help being insulting can you Tem?

It's not about being insulting; it's pointing out the consequences of 20 years of Blairism and new Labour. In people and many policies you are indistinguishable from the tory party, and vast swathes of the general public feel that, hence the 'all the same,' comments and the rise of the kippers. The only sop to the left is to be a little less nasty when you do it. Labour is part of a political consensus of the centre that has existed unchallenged since the early 90s.

That's not to dig at people here who I know are decent people, generally with a left wing view, but it is stating an uncomfortable reality for labour loyalists. However, I really don't think the party can heal itself until it really faces what it has become.

As for costings taxes financial policy etc http://policy.greenparty.org.uk/ec.html#EC730

[Temulkar]

Is there any deficit reduction plan anywhere?

I love end fractional reserve banking. Utter utter bollocks, ten year old style. If a serious party advocated that they would be laughed off the platform and their vote would drop by about 10 points.

The reality is I get why people feel they can't vote Labour because they aren't left wing enough. In my youth I had to argue with muppets demanding a Benn Heffer leadership ticket. At least it is more logical than that.

However the Greens are not a serious party and they aren't subjected to the same constraints, media pressure and scrutiny that major parties are.

This means they can string together a left wing wish list and seek to carve out a niche in that electoral space. Vote for them, don't vote for them whatever. But don't pretend that is a serious platform or that they could deliver any of it.

How to prove my point about the way Labour will react. Brilliant.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Not going to ban fractional reserve banking then?

[Temulkar]

Not going to ban fractional reserve banking then?

We've passed a motion on that,

http://www.positivemoney.org/2013/09/gr ... e-banking/

[letsskiptotheleft]

Within the last 10 minutes the Guardian have published two articles about UKIP, the level of publicity they have it's no wonder that aren't on poll ratings of 40%.

[LadyCentauria]

Inflation figures for Sept.
I think I'm right in saying that this is the month used for uprating state pensions and benefits...so that's a 1.2% increase.

It used to be RPI - wonder what pensioners have lost since 2010 because of the change?

If anyone's tweeting for FTN, please could you ask Beaker or Tim Farron, they are always trumpeting just what they've done for pensioners.

I've just been reminded by RClayton over there that there's a triple lock for state pensions so that will rise by 2.5%

It's public sector pensions and benefits that will only rise by CPI.

Triple lock here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25609485

Except that many working-age benefits are locked down to 1%, aren't they?

[Rebecca]

Is there any deficit reduction plan anywhere?

I love end fractional reserve banking. Utter utter bollocks, ten year old style. If a serious party advocated that they would be laughed off the platform and their vote would drop by about 10 points.

The reality is I get why people feel they can't vote Labour because they aren't left wing enough. In my youth I had to argue with muppets demanding a Benn Heffer leadership ticket. At least it is more logical than that.

However the Greens are not a serious party and they aren't subjected to the same constraints, media pressure and scrutiny that major parties are.

This means they can string together a left wing wish list and seek to carve out a niche in that electoral space. Vote for them, don't vote for them whatever. But don't pretend that is a serious platform or that they could deliver any of it.

How to prove my point about the way Labour will react. Brilliant.

Well,you can roll around laughing all you like,but when you've dusted yourself off,maybe remember that the Greens have only one MP,just a few less than Labour I'm sure you will agree,and that Green policies will never have to stand the test of reality.

[giselle97]

''I know you tribalists wont like that but to the rest of the left that is all you are''

Even when you try to be conciliatory you can't help being insulting can you Tem?

Thanks for saving me writing something I would probably have regretted Letsskip.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

@Temulkar

I've enjoyed thinking about the Greens' manifesto this evening. Thanks for the info.

I think what folk may find upsetting is the use of "you" in your posts that feels to me like you are implying that everyone here who supports Labour is a homogeneous mass of zombies incapable of critiquing Labour policy. In fact it's quite obvious that no one party will represent a single person's views exactly, especially under FPTP. So we all make choices as how to best express our personal political views at the ballot box.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Is there any deficit reduction plan anywhere?

I love end fractional reserve banking. Utter utter bollocks, ten year old style. If a serious party advocated that they would be laughed off the platform and their vote would drop by about 10 points.

The reality is I get why people feel they can't vote Labour because they aren't left wing enough. In my youth I had to argue with muppets demanding a Benn Heffer leadership ticket. At least it is more logical than that.

However the Greens are not a serious party and they aren't subjected to the same constraints, media pressure and scrutiny that major parties are.

This means they can string together a left wing wish list and seek to carve out a niche in that electoral space. Vote for them, don't vote for them whatever. But don't pretend that is a serious platform or that they could deliver any of it.

How to prove my point about the way Labour will react. Brilliant.

Bollocks, it is simply a fairly accurate summation of the Green Party position, it says nothing about how Labour will react.

I am fairly certain it won't try to change the banking system unilaterally to some utterly unproven fantasy solution. If it goes wrong (and it will) it will throw millions of working and middle class people into abject poverty. I will be fine I could emigrate.

[Temulkar]

I love end fractional reserve banking. Utter utter bollocks, ten year old style. If a serious party advocated that they would be laughed off the platform and their vote would drop by about 10 points.

The reality is I get why people feel they can't vote Labour because they aren't left wing enough. In my youth I had to argue with muppets demanding a Benn Heffer leadership ticket. At least it is more logical than that.

However the Greens are not a serious party and they aren't subjected to the same constraints, media pressure and scrutiny that major parties are.

This means they can string together a left wing wish list and seek to carve out a niche in that electoral space. Vote for them, don't vote for them whatever. But don't pretend that is a serious platform or that they could deliver any of it.

How to prove my point about the way Labour will react. Brilliant.

Well,you can roll around laughing all you like,but when you've dusted yourself off,maybe remember that the Greens have only one MP,just a few less than Labour I'm sure you will agree,and that Green policies will never have to stand the test of reality.

There will be a Green government in my lifetime, As long as I havent died in the enviromental catastrophe that brings it to power of course. I used to think my sixties or seventies, I'm betting mid fifties these days.

[RogerOThornhill]

Within the last 10 minutes the Guardian have published two articles about UKIP, the level of publicity they have it's no wonder that aren't on poll ratings of 40%.

Apparently Great Grimsby might fall to UKIP where the UKIP candidate is the one who nearly toppled Austin Mitchell last time...as a Conservative.

[Temulkar]

I love end fractional reserve banking. Utter utter bollocks, ten year old style. If a serious party advocated that they would be laughed off the platform and their vote would drop by about 10 points.

The reality is I get why people feel they can't vote Labour because they aren't left wing enough. In my youth I had to argue with muppets demanding a Benn Heffer leadership ticket. At least it is more logical than that.

However the Greens are not a serious party and they aren't subjected to the same constraints, media pressure and scrutiny that major parties are.

This means they can string together a left wing wish list and seek to carve out a niche in that electoral space. Vote for them, don't vote for them whatever. But don't pretend that is a serious platform or that they could deliver any of it.

How to prove my point about the way Labour will react. Brilliant.

Bollocks, it is simply a fairly accurate summation of the Green Party position, it says nothing about how Labour will react.

I am fairly certain it won't try to change the banking system unilaterally to some utterly unproven fantasy solution. If it goes wrong (and it will) it will throw millions of working and middle class people into abject poverty. I will be fine I could emigrate.

You haven't even read the documents if your stating that, so it really isnt an accurate summation of anything except your own fantasy. Much like yesterday's spurious claim large chunks of the media said Milliband had apologised for Iraq. I havent resorted to swearing once btw, whose being aggressive?

[Tubby Isaacs]

What do you think the effect of the banning fractional reserve banking in Britain alone are likely to be?

[AngryAsWell]

NUT Education Manifesto

https://www.teachers.org.uk/files/manif ... 623-_0.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

Within the last 10 minutes the Guardian have published two articles about UKIP, the level of publicity they have it's no wonder that aren't on poll ratings of 40%.

Apparently Great Grimsby might fall to UKIP where the UKIP candidate is the one who nearly toppled Austin Mitchell last time...as a Conservative.

That's fairly plausible.

Grimsby really needs a load of secondary moderns.

[Temulkar]

@Temulkar

I've enjoyed thinking about the Greens' manifesto this evening. Thanks for the info.

I think what folk may find upsetting is the use of "you" in your posts that feels to me like you are implying that everyone here who supports Labour is a homogeneous mass of zombies incapable of critiquing Labour policy. In fact it's quite obvious that no one party will represent a single person's views exactly, especially under FPTP. So we all make choices as how to best express our personal political views at the ballot box.

I certainly don't think people here are a homogenous blob, I do think people here are incredibly tribal about labour. Look at the discussion about Owen Jones because he dared to criticise labour. I actually don't think that is good for the site, but I digress.

What really surprises me is people on here tend to be far further to the left of the party they support and espouse.

[RogerOThornhill]

Within the last 10 minutes the Guardian have published two articles about UKIP, the level of publicity they have it's no wonder that aren't on poll ratings of 40%.

Apparently Great Grimsby might fall to UKIP where the UKIP candidate is the one who nearly toppled Austin Mitchell last time...as a Conservative.

That's fairly plausible.

Grimsby really needs a load of secondary moderns.

Plus Mitchell is retiring anyway so personal impact disappears. Mind you...Labour vote might even increase given that he's been a total arse for the past 5 or more years.

[AngryAsWell]

Boy George supports Ed ?
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Tubby Isaacs]

I was thinking of some other countries- Germany and Sweden came to mind. There are separate Green and Left parties there, which is different to the UK Greens. I'd be surprised if there weren't some good reason for that- ie the two don't go all that well together in the longer term.

The Social Democrats in each country seem to prefer working with Greens to the Left.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I was thinking of some other countries- Germany and Sweden came to mind. There are separate Green and Left parties there, which is different to the UK Greens. I'd be surprised if there weren't some good reason for that- ie the two don't go all that well together in the longer term.

The Social Democrats in each country seem to prefer working with Greens to the Left.

Both have more proportional voting systems.

And remember Miliband supported changing the electoral system (albeit the new one on offer wasn't very proportional either!).

[Rebecca]

How to prove my point about the way Labour will react. Brilliant.

Well,you can roll around laughing all you like,but when you've dusted yourself off,maybe remember that the Greens have only one MP,just a few less than Labour I'm sure you will agree,and that Green policies will never have to stand the test of reality.

There will be a Green government in my lifetime, As long as I havent died in the enviromental catastrophe that brings it to power of course. I used to think my sixties or seventies, I'm betting mid fifties these days.

See,that's simply nonsense.We can all make bold statements as though wishful thinking is a fact.If i write

'George Clooney will leave his beautiful wife and come knocking on my door',is it going to happen?

[HindleA]

If anyone's tweeting for FTN, please could you ask Beaker or Tim Farron, they are always trumpeting just what they've done for pensioners.

I've just been reminded by RClayton over there that there's a triple lock for state pensions so that will rise by 2.5%

It's public sector pensions and benefits that will only rise by CPI.

Triple lock here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25609485

Except that many working-age benefits are locked down to 1%, aren't they?

Yes excepting ESA(support),and DLA-realise that isn't working age and Carers Allowance.Of course it is only the "support component "(about a third)that isn't capped and applicable disability/carers premium.A particular neat trick is that in calculations for means tested benefit the uncapped CA comes off the now,lower applicable amount.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

I was thinking of some other countries- Germany and Sweden came to mind. There are separate Green and Left parties there, which is different to the UK Greens. I'd be surprised if there weren't some good reason for that- ie the two don't go all that well together in the longer term.

The Social Democrats in each country seem to prefer working with Greens to the Left.

Both have more proportional voting systems.

And remember Miliband supported changing the electoral system (albeit the new one on offer wasn't very proportional either!).

This is a massive part of the problem. We shouldn't have all this vote Farage get Miliband shit. You should get who you vote for. Temulkar deserves to see a Green MP nearer to him than Brighton.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

And yes I know a proportional system would mean more UKIP MPs but wouldn't that be a good thing? Wherever they get elected as councillors people see them for what they are and vote them out again.

[AngryAsWell]

@Temulkar

I've enjoyed thinking about the Greens' manifesto this evening. Thanks for the info.

I think what folk may find upsetting is the use of "you" in your posts that feels to me like you are implying that everyone here who supports Labour is a homogeneous mass of zombies incapable of critiquing Labour policy. In fact it's quite obvious that no one party will represent a single person's views exactly, especially under FPTP. So we all make choices as how to best express our personal political views at the ballot box.

I certainly don't think people here are a homogenous blob, I do think people here are incredibly tribal about labour. Look at the discussion about Owen Jones because he dared to criticise labour. I actually don't think that is good for the site, but I digress.

What really surprises me is people on here tend to be far further to the left of the party they support and espouse.

Thing is, in the bad old days of Labour I was turned away from them *because* of the hard left. I watched as militant wrecked the party and despaired at what they were doing. Neil Kinnock's 1985 speech had me in tears for what the party had become.
"I'll tell you what happens with impossible promises. You start with far-fetched resolutions. They are then pickled into a rigid dogma, a code, and you go through the years sticking to that, outdated, misplaced, irrelevant to the real needs, and you end in the grotesque chaos of a Labour council -- a Labour council -- hiring taxis to scuttle round a city handing out redundancy notices to its own workers . . .
I am telling you, no matter how entertaining, how fulfilling to short-term egos -- you can't play politics with people's jobs and with people's services or with their homes."

I never want that kind of left wing dictatorship from Labour ever, ever again. And if that means it stays a little on the realistic side - then so be it, I'll stay with them, not as you imply "a tribalist" but because I hold the same views of the world as the current leader of the party.
I've spent some time reading the Green Party web page (thanks for that) a lot of it seems (to me) to be pointing in Militants direction.

[Temulkar]

I was thinking of some other countries- Germany and Sweden came to mind. There are separate Green and Left parties there, which is different to the UK Greens. I'd be surprised if there weren't some good reason for that- ie the two don't go all that well together in the longer term.

The Social Democrats in each country seem to prefer working with Greens to the Left.

Well the left in Europe tends to be much further to the left if that makes sense. Whilst the Greens seem like hardcore trots in the UK, to the European left we are moderates I think.

We have our own right and left wing as well, there are grades of green. Although I think that tends to be the speed of travel rather than direction.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

In other news

The Prime Minister has pledged to throw the kitchen sink at Mr Reckless

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/to ... ls-4438341" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PaulfromYorkshire]

UKIP are currently around 4 to 1 ON to win Rochester & Strood!

[Temulkar]

Well,you can roll around laughing all you like,but when you've dusted yourself off,maybe remember that the Greens have only one MP,just a few less than Labour I'm sure you will agree,and that Green policies will never have to stand the test of reality.

There will be a Green government in my lifetime, As long as I havent died in the enviromental catastrophe that brings it to power of course. I used to think my sixties or seventies, I'm betting mid fifties these days.

See,that's simply nonsense.We can all make bold statements as though wishful thinking is a fact.If i write

'George Clooney will leave his beautiful wife and come knocking on my door',is it going to happen?

It's not nonsense to claim we are going to see an environmental catastrophe unfold in the next few decades, that will have as dramatic an impact upon our global society as anything since the Black Death. It's no giant leap of faith to say the Green movement will become mainstream in that situation.

[Rebecca]

There will be a Green government in my lifetime, As long as I havent died in the enviromental catastrophe that brings it to power of course. I used to think my sixties or seventies, I'm betting mid fifties these days.

See,that's simply nonsense.We can all make bold statements as though wishful thinking is a fact.If i write

'George Clooney will leave his beautiful wife and come knocking on my door',is it going to happen?

It's not nonsense to claim we are going to see an environmental catastrophe unfold in the next few decades, that will have as dramatic an impact upon our global society as anything since the Black Death. It's no giant leap of faith to say the Green movement will become mainstream in that situation.

You HOPE there will be a Green govt,it's nonsense to state that there WILL be.Come back and say it when there are 300+ green mps instead of(cough) 1.

[55DegreesNorth]

There will be a Green government in my lifetime, As long as I havent died in the enviromental catastrophe that brings it to power of course. I used to think my sixties or seventies, I'm betting mid fifties these days.

See,that's simply nonsense.We can all make bold statements as though wishful thinking is a fact.If i write

'George Clooney will leave his beautiful wife and come knocking on my door',is it going to happen?

It's not nonsense to claim we are going to see an environmental catastrophe unfold in the next few decades, that will have as dramatic an impact upon our global society as anything since the Black Death. It's no giant leap of faith to say the Green movement will become mainstream in that situation.

Well, given that some researchers maintain that the plague on its own could not have spread fast enough to account entirely for the Black Death, and that haemorrhagic virus (like Ebola) might have been responsible, we might not have to wait decades. I know, there were fewer medics in the C14th, but there were fewer people and definitely fewer airliners.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I was thinking of some other countries- Germany and Sweden came to mind. There are separate Green and Left parties there, which is different to the UK Greens. I'd be surprised if there weren't some good reason for that- ie the two don't go all that well together in the longer term.

The Social Democrats in each country seem to prefer working with Greens to the Left.

Both have more proportional voting systems.

And remember Miliband supported changing the electoral system (albeit the new one on offer wasn't very proportional either!).

This is a massive part of the problem. We shouldn't have all this vote Farage get Miliband shit. You should get who you vote for. Temulkar deserves to see a Green MP nearer to him than Brighton.

I agree with that.

I think Miliband ought to promise a PR referendum. Trouble is, you'll have a loads of MPs who've worked very hard to get elected, and they'll be expected to vote themselves out of jobs...

Don't get the connection between PR and Soc Dems preferring Greens to Socialists.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I was thinking of some other countries- Germany and Sweden came to mind. There are separate Green and Left parties there, which is different to the UK Greens. I'd be surprised if there weren't some good reason for that- ie the two don't go all that well together in the longer term.

The Social Democrats in each country seem to prefer working with Greens to the Left.

Well the left in Europe tends to be much further to the left if that makes sense. Whilst the Greens seem like hardcore trots in the UK, to the European left we are moderates I think.

We have our own right and left wing as well, there are grades of green. Although I think that tends to be the speed of travel rather than direction.

Thanks, yes. It is interesting that you've got both in your party. No reason why they can't co-exist.

[Temulkar]

See,that's simply nonsense.We can all make bold statements as though wishful thinking is a fact.If i write

'George Clooney will leave his beautiful wife and come knocking on my door',is it going to happen?

It's not nonsense to claim we are going to see an environmental catastrophe unfold in the next few decades, that will have as dramatic an impact upon our global society as anything since the Black Death. It's no giant leap of faith to say the Green movement will become mainstream in that situation.

Well, given that some researchers maintain that the plague on its own could not have spread fast enough to account entirely for the Black Death, and that haemorrhagic virus (like Ebola) might have been responsible, we might not have to wait decades. I know, there were fewer medics in the C14th, but there were fewer people and definitely fewer airliners.

I havent seen that research would be interested if you have a link. I know bubonic is less contagious/quick spreading but secondary pneumonic plague spreads like the flu.

[HindleA]

Apologies if this has been mentioned.


"More than half of local health contracts go outside NHS "


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29620329" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ErnstRemarx]

How to prove my point about the way Labour will react. Brilliant.

Well,you can roll around laughing all you like,but when you've dusted yourself off,maybe remember that the Greens have only one MP,just a few less than Labour I'm sure you will agree,and that Green policies will never have to stand the test of reality.

There will be a Green government in my lifetime, As long as I havent died in the enviromental catastrophe that brings it to power of course. I used to think my sixties or seventies, I'm betting mid fifties these days.

Upon what do you base that belief Tem? I simply ask because there's not a recorded groundswell (yet, perhaps) of support for the Greens that might translate into seats, and the only example of a Green council is hardly without its own controversies.

I have a belief that a socialist/communist government will sweep away the rotting dregs of Toryism in about 10 years time. And I've offered the same evidence.

[Temulkar]

What was it you said about Kha not using the vote green get dave slogan?

Khan said: “Whether we like it or not, our electoral system means that every vote for the Green party makes a Tory government more likely. I don’t want to scare people, but that’s the truth.

[AngryAsWell]

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects · 4m4 minutes ago
National Opinion Poll (YouGov):
LAB - 34% (=)
CON - 30% (-1)
UKIP - 18% (+1)
LDEM - 8% (+1)