Tuesday 14th October 2014

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 1:28 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Labour Whips ‏@labourwhips 1m1 minute ago
8 Tory MPs vote not to exempt carers from #BedroomTax: Blackman, Bone, Hollobone, McCartney, Offord, Pritchard, Rees-Mogg & Stevenson

Ah cheers.Twunts.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 1:38 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Labour Whips ‏@labourwhips 1m1 minute ago
8 Tory MPs vote not to exempt carers from #BedroomTax: Blackman, Bone, Hollobone, McCartney, Offord, Pritchard, Rees-Mogg & Stevenson

Usual suspects. Offord was one of the dissenters last night, he was interrupted by Sir Edward Leigh, hardly a model of enlightenment himself, sho skewered him with the line that he suspected Offord was "… reading at great speed from an Israeli Government hand out…" .....bazinga!!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 1:38 pm

Apparently seven Tories went against the whip and voted for the bill.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 2:09 pm

mikems wrote:What is to stop the tories/media coming up with new trojan horse stories pre-election? If they do, Tristram will be in a poor position to fend them off, because he has accepted lies as truth and they will denounce him for 'being weak' against radical islam or whatever.

To me you can't maintain a comprehensive strategy if you are constantly making tactical retreats on ground you could not only easily defend but could also use to go on the offensive i.e. 'why is the DofE pushing lies into the media?'

Instead, in a tactical retreat, the lies are accepted.

What lies did Hunt accept, I don't understand?

The plot and letter were a fake, but two reports found evidence of "Islamism" at at least some of the schools, and the local Labour MP thought there were serious problems with some individuals too.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 2:16 pm

I think Hunt's fair enough there, apart from not questioning Ofsted.

Despite the efforts to blame "Labour's multiculturalism", it is indeed Gove's system that's failed and isn't getting improvement.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 2:55 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:If I recall correctly this Government has already commissioned a report into examining how UK v English voting can be amended but the conclusion was it's not straightforward at all. Does anyone more organised than myself remember and have a link please?
I think it was by Ken Clarke

Thanks Paul.
I've had it pointed out to me that it was the McKay commission.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 2:55 pm

Tubby,

Hunt is treating the trojan horse nonsense as if it was true. He could have attacked the DofE for its behaviour, but hasn't.

I agree that it is Gove's system that has failed, but that is not being attacked, it is the 'failure' of the govt to take its own fabricated nonsense 'seriously' that is being attacked. Why would they take it 'seriously' when they made it up in the first place? Why doesn't Hunt understand that? It seems pretty basic to me.

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 2:59 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
mikems wrote:What is to stop the tories/media coming up with new trojan horse stories pre-election? If they do, Tristram will be in a poor position to fend them off, because he has accepted lies as truth and they will denounce him for 'being weak' against radical islam or whatever.

To me you can't maintain a comprehensive strategy if you are constantly making tactical retreats on ground you could not only easily defend but could also use to go on the offensive i.e. 'why is the DofE pushing lies into the media?'

Instead, in a tactical retreat, the lies are accepted.
What lies did Hunt accept, I don't understand?

The plot and letter were a fake, but two reports found evidence of "Islamism" at at least some of the schools, and the local Labour MP thought there were serious problems with some individuals too.

I read through that report, and apart from some choice text messages between a couple of teachers there wasn't anything that gave me any more concern than I have at the creeping "Christianisation" of my kids' junior school - hymns in assembly, learning about crucifixion, visits to local churches and Nativity plays!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 3:17 pm

mikems wrote:Tubby,

Hunt is treating the trojan horse nonsense as if it was true. He could have attacked the DofE for its behaviour, but hasn't.

I agree that it is Gove's system that has failed, but that is not being attacked, it is the 'failure' of the govt to take its own fabricated nonsense 'seriously' that is being attacked. Why would they take it 'seriously' when they made it up in the first place? Why doesn't Hunt understand that? It seems pretty basic to me.

What are you saying is nonsense?
As I said, the letter was a forgery, and there's not very much in the way of a plot, beyond a couple of individuals trying to get themselves on several boards.

But surely nasty conservative Muslims trying to pass on those values in a few schools was found to be true, wasn't it?

If you don't trust Ofsted, or Peter Clarke, Birmingham Council's report found that to be true as well.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 3:24 pm

Tubby,

It seems to me that Hunt is opening himself up to the accusation that he too is playing politics with islamic radicalism and trying to portray the govt as 'weak' just as they are him. It's that childish and dishonest discourse that I object to.

There was no trojan horse plot in reality. There was a collusion between Gove and the media to pretend there was. That's what we should be attacking - the politicisation of education in a very nasty and unpleasant manner. Instead Labour have moved onto tory ground - as muddy as Ypres and clouded in tabloid fog - to fight them on their terms.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 3:29 pm

DonutHingeParty wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
mikems wrote:What is to stop the tories/media coming up with new trojan horse stories pre-election? If they do, Tristram will be in a poor position to fend them off, because he has accepted lies as truth and they will denounce him for 'being weak' against radical islam or whatever.

To me you can't maintain a comprehensive strategy if you are constantly making tactical retreats on ground you could not only easily defend but could also use to go on the offensive i.e. 'why is the DofE pushing lies into the media?'

Instead, in a tactical retreat, the lies are accepted.
What lies did Hunt accept, I don't understand?

The plot and letter were a fake, but two reports found evidence of "Islamism" at at least some of the schools, and the local Labour MP thought there were serious problems with some individuals too.
I read through that report, and apart from some choice text messages between a couple of teachers there wasn't anything that gave me any more concern than I have at the creeping "Christianisation" of my kids' junior school - hymns in assembly, learning about crucifixion, visits to local churches and Nativity plays!

Kershaw Report summary.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... t-findings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Discrimination against female pupils and staff. Jobs offered to people with right religious views, despite lack of experience.

You need to fight what's happening at your school.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 3:38 pm

mikems wrote:Tubby,

It seems to me that Hunt is opening himself up to the accusation that he too is playing politics with islamic radicalism and trying to portray the govt as 'weak' just as they are him. It's that childish and dishonest discourse that I object to.

There was no trojan horse plot in reality. There was a collusion between Gove and the media to pretend there was. That's what we should be attacking - the politicisation of education in a very nasty and unpleasant manner. Instead Labour have moved onto tory ground - as muddy as Ypres and clouded in tabloid fog - to fight them on their terms.

Hang, on there've been 3 reports that have shown something like a plot.

I wouldn't call it that, as the reports don't, only because it wasn't unified and it wasn't very clever- just a bunch of people throwing their weight about on governing bodies and in the schools. Though the Labour MP in the constituency insists that plot is the right word. Birmingham's Labour Council's report found much to be concerned about. And you're saying Hunt should overrule them?

It's on Tory ground by being neglected by a Tory council, converted to an academy by a Tory SoS etc. I agree the "weak" stuff is a bit puerile though, and I'd like to see some scepticism of Ofsted.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 3:55 pm

Gordon Brown in response to Tory jibes about his HoC attendance:

''It's whether you speak sense in this house is what really matters''

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 3:58 pm

HindleA wrote:Apparently seven Tories went against the whip and voted for the bill.

List here.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 3-0004.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can see

Nicholas Soames
Anne Main
Andrew Turner
David T Davies (!)
Edward Leigh
Hugh Robertson
Laurence Robertson
Eric Ollerenshaw
Bob Stewart
Sarah Woolaston

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 4:21 pm

Those reports are subsequent to the 'trojan horse' bollocks, are they not? It's a post-hoc justification, if that is the term I am looking for.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 4:38 pm

mikems wrote:Those reports are subsequent to the 'trojan horse' bollocks, are they not? It's a post-hoc justification, if that is the term I am looking for.

The letter (forged) certainly prompted them, but doesn't mean there's not quite a lot to be concerned about.
Whoever wrote the letter, it wasn't the people later strongly criticized in the report. Could be a pal of Gove, or a rival Pakistani Muslim who didn't like the group around the schools, or a completely honourable whistleblower.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 4:39 pm

Lovely parody, from a few years ago, that I've just been reminded of.

I’m sitting in the staff room of an imaginary inner city comprehensive school. It seems amazing that until I lost my job I used to have so much in common with these people.
Although I really knew the truth all the time. All around the imaginary staff room there are the inevitable posters for the teaching unions peddling their frightful ideologies. They set
the tone for the imaginary conversation that we are about to have.

“But why did you do it
Katherine ?”says one long haired bearded chap with a Karl Marx lapel badge. “But why did you betray us? Look what happened to the school you used to work at”

Whaat? I try to point out that my comments had nothing to do with the school’s closure. “Much the same as Gerald Ratner’s comments had nothing to do with the collapse of his business!” he sneers.

I’m stumped

A kindly lady (I’ll call her Mrs. Clapped Out Led Down The Garden Path by Cultural Marxists for Years) says. “But Katherine, if the freedoms that you say are so wonderful then why not simply apply them to all schools?”

I try patiently to explain that schools will be free from the dictates of the Local Authority.
“But Katherine, how do the Local Authority impact on us? Its OFSTED, and the National Curriculum a new education bill every year and the constant raft of new initiatives from both parties that have left me clapped out. Anyway there’s been LMS for 23 years.”

I’m stumped

A young teacher, Miss Just Like I Used To Be Before I Stopped Reading Marxism Today says: ”What have you got against the unions, I could have lost my job last year if had not been for
them defending me just because I had an unsatisfactory in a twenty minute observation with bottom set Year 9 last year during OFSTED."

I explain that unions all have a frightful marxist ideological agenda and have blocked all attempts at reform over the years.

“So what government policies have they actually stopped?” says Mrs. Clapped Out.

I’m stumped.

I try to be reasonable “Look” , I say gaily, “Just take a look at Shiny Academy down the road. Look how well they’ve done, wouldn’t you rather work in a school like that? Can’t
you see that the progressives want to hold you back and not let you have the freedoms that the teachers there have?”

“’l’ll tell you what freedoms they had” says Mr. Low Expectations who has just sauntered into the room with his top button undone. "They were free to choose their catchment expel any children they liked, which we can’t and as a result we have had to
take a load of troublemakers. 6 years ago both schools had good ratings from OFSTED, now they are outstanding and we are in special measures. What’s the point in having special rules and secret funding deals for one school, why not have us all on a level playing field?”

I’m stumped

As I sadly walk away I see the children playing in the yard and I remember how much I loved teaching inner city kids. I try to think of a way of getting these dear dear former colleagues of mine to understand that their opposition to Conservative reforms
is based on crude manipulation by the leftist educational establishment and the progressives who want to keep them in chains. But I’m stumped.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 5:09 pm

George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m1 minute ago
Exclusive: Sadiq Khan appointed to lead Labour unit on Green Party threat http://bit.ly/1w6jrro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 5:20 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m1 minute ago
Exclusive: Sadiq Khan appointed to lead Labour unit on Green Party threat http://bit.ly/1w6jrro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope he sees it as an Opportunity not a Threat

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 5:23 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m1 minute ago
Exclusive: Sadiq Khan appointed to lead Labour unit on Green Party threat http://bit.ly/1w6jrro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LOL, another surge in Green membership here we come then.

I expect the usual incoherent insults first, tree huggers and anti-science jibes that don't stack up, followed by faux empathy and concern trolling, all topped off with a 'If you go to bed with Natalie you will wake up with Dave' mantra endlessly repeated by PPE drones.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 5:31 pm

Khan seems reasonably smart.

I think it would be a good move to give that "wake up with x" a wide berth. It too much implies ownership of votes.
Except when there are relatively small differences- like when Greens run against Labour leftwingers, as they did v David Drew last time in Stroud. It would be absurd for some Blairite goon to patronise Green voters like that.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 5:42 pm

Primary head teachers in England are being cold-called by "brokers", urging them to convert to academy status, a teacher's union leader has told MPs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-296 ... witterfeed

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 5:46 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Primary head teachers in England are being cold-called by "brokers", urging them to convert to academy status, a teacher's union leader has told MPs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-296 ... witterfeed

These goons have been around for a couple of years. Some were on £1k a day, paid by the DfE.

I was saying on another board that Education was getting like football. Here are the agents!

There was a bit of fun in Lancashire, where the Tory Council leader told them get out of his schools.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 5:49 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Khan seems reasonably smart.

I think it would be a good move to give that "wake up with x" a wide berth. It too much implies ownership of votes.
Except when there are relatively small differences- like when Greens run against Labour leftwingers, as they did v David Drew last time in Stroud. It would be absurd for some Blairite goon to patronise Green voters like that.

Though of course Stroud is a long standing Green hotspot and it isn't realistic to expect them not to stand there.

(I expect Drew may be more pi**ed off with UKIP standing last time, after they had publicly stated they wouldn't and would back him instead)

Agree about Khan, though - Temulkar may want him to behave in the way he describes, but I suspect he will be rather more nuanced

onebuttonmonkey · Post by **onebuttonmonkey** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 5:59 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Re the Owen Jones discussion here, I know this isn't a universal line amongst Labour loyalists but I have always had quite a lot of time for him.

So his latest piece being pretty much boilerplate Labour/Ed bashing was rather disappointing.

I just hope he doesn't go full-on John Harris and start burbling about UKIP's "authenticity"

I'd definitely go along with all of this. He's by no means infallible, as the last article shows, but then, who is? I think it's fair to say Ed M's conference speech wasn't at all his best - it's just that the reasons it wasn't his best aren't the ones picked up on by most of the media.

As for him and UKIP, that wonderful dig at Harris made me smile. Harris really irritates me because occasionally he can be superb - but then just trots out lazy drivel. If he wasn't capable of being so much better, it wouldn't be so depressing he so often isn't. Anyway, this is an article of Owen's that I remember from a few years ago on UKIP that seemed pretty accurate to me - although, for balance, UKIP are as much a failure of all the parties and the right as they are a failure of the Left:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 0815.html?

Re @Lonewolfie earlier:

I sincerely hope you are right, and that I'm just being oversensitive about the nuances of tone and that he'll come out all guns blazing in support of Ed and Labour.

I think he generally does, and I'd hope he continues to do so - when the support is merited. Certainly, off telly, he fiercely advocates getting involved with Labour. And as far as Labour's critics go, he's hardly Damian McBride, either (I have a soft spot for McBride, even though he's quite a piece of work, but today's piece was again overegging a tired Ed M. point). Maybe I'm giving Owen too much of an easy time because I, too, have become more disillusioned of late. I'd be saddened if he did turn into as cosy a member of the media as those he also criticises.

By the way, unrelated, and I know it shouldn't be a surprise given the subject matter, but BTL at the other place is atrocious today. And for the record, I thought Brown's speech was superb.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:00 pm

I wonder if there's some mileage in attacking the Green Party for science. Or have they sorted that out completely? I know they made a good effort to.

UKIP and the Tories aren't the most convincing on science either...

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:02 pm

Temulkar wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:George Eaton ‏@georgeeaton 1m1 minute ago
Exclusive: Sadiq Khan appointed to lead Labour unit on Green Party threat http://bit.ly/1w6jrro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LOL, another surge in Green membership here we come then.

I expect the usual incoherent insults first, tree huggers and anti-science jibes that don't stack up, followed by faux empathy and concern trolling, all topped off with a 'If you go to bed with Natalie you will wake up with Dave' mantra endlessly repeated by PPE drones.

Let's hope that the tone isn't as patronising as you expect. No matter who the other party is, it's always wise to accord them respect as you never know when you might find yourself allying to them (unless they're batshit crazy like UKIP in which case all bets are off).

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:07 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Khan seems reasonably smart.

I think it would be a good move to give that "wake up with x" a wide berth. It too much implies ownership of votes.
Except when there are relatively small differences- like when Greens run against Labour leftwingers, as they did v David Drew last time in Stroud. It would be absurd for some Blairite goon to patronise Green voters like that.
Though of course Stroud is a long standing Green hotspot and it isn't realistic to expect them not to stand there.

(I expect Drew may be more pi**ed off with UKIP standing last time, after they had publicly stated they wouldn't and would back him instead)

Agree about Khan, though - Temulkar may want him to behave in the way he describes, but I suspect he will be rather more nuanced

Hmm going on the opinions voiced here it will be a load of 'betraying the left and letting the tories in' what other tactics do you have? You can't out-green the greens and unlike UKIP we actually have costed policies that are undeniably left wing. You cant even take our policies and try and claim only you can deliver them, because your party doesnt believe in our policies.

A policy debate with the Greens will merely expose just how appallingly right wing Labour is, so Sadiq has to avoid that at all costs. All he has left are insults and smears.

And every insult and smear, every patronising dismissal of green voters or there concerns, and most especially every time the traitor label is thrown out will just build our popularity.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:12 pm

I didn't see Brown's speech, only read bits of it, he wound a few up on the opposite benches by all accounts, that's always good. One of my biggest irritants with Labour since the last election has been the side-lining of the man, quite possibly he wanted it that way, but too many it seems were quite willing to airbrush him out of their life's, you don't do that to people, many still have respect for the man, Labour would be wiser to have shown him some too. The independence debate showed there is none better to bang heads together and get the job done, whatever the assembled hacks think, who as far as I am concerned can go and fuck themselves.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:13 pm

Incidentally, what (apart from the obvious) prompted the David Nuttall insight earlier? Has he been more obnoxious than usual?

I nearly missed this....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 92465.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh how we laughed. UKIP are too PC for him? In what universe, etc, etc...

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:16 pm

I mean are Labrou going to argue against or adopt these policies? If they argue against will you blindly go on supporting them?

- £10 minimum wage
- Basic income
- Increase of the state pension from £97/week to £170/week
- Renationalisation of the railways and energy sector
- Abolition of tuition fees
- EU referendum
- Against TTIP
- Close up tax loopholes
- House of Lords reform
- 'Robin Hood tax' (Google it)
- Donations from corporations/tax avoiders etc are not accepted
- Monetary/banking reform
- Free home insulation programme
- Save the NHS from privatisation and cuts
- More liberal drug laws
- restorative/rehabilitative justice to reduce crime and re-offending
- End fractional reserve banking
- Free home insulation scheme to keep energy bills down
- Investment in public services
- No more counter-productive austerity

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:23 pm

I don't think free home insulation is purely a Green policy, I have had it done under Labour and this shower?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:33 pm

Ofsted: Trojan Horse schools 'still failing to promote British values'
Ofsted says that five schools at the centre of the Trojan Horse affair in Birmingham are failing to improve, with teachers struggling to promote religious 'tolerance'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... alues.html

onebuttonmonkey · Post by **onebuttonmonkey** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:37 pm

Temulkar wrote:I mean are Labrou going to argue against or adopt these policies? If they argue against will you blindly go on supporting them?

- £10 minimum wage
- Basic income
- Increase of the state pension from £97/week to £170/week
- Renationalisation of the railways and energy sector
- Abolition of tuition fees
- EU referendum
- Against TTIP
- Close up tax loopholes
- House of Lords reform
- 'Robin Hood tax' (Google it)
- Donations from corporations/tax avoiders etc are not accepted
- Monetary/banking reform
- Free home insulation programme
- Save the NHS from privatisation and cuts
- More liberal drug laws
- restorative/rehabilitative justice to reduce crime and re-offending
- End fractional reserve banking
- Free home insulation scheme to keep energy bills down
- Investment in public services
- No more counter-productive austerity

I've no interest in an EU referendum, but the rest of those look pretty good to me. But you know as well as I do that Labour's response to the Greens - if it deserves the term response - is pretty much exactly the same as the Tories was to UKIP before UKIP were given the free airtime and publicity to become an electoral threat. It boils down to: "if you vote Green, you'll get Cameron. Don't waste your vote." All that's changed are two proper nouns.

As I've repeated to the point of being very boring, I'd prefer Labour gave those on the left something to vote for rather than expecting the threat of something worse to be their only recognition of those their policy choices largely ignore.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:40 pm

Temulkar wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Khan seems reasonably smart.

I think it would be a good move to give that "wake up with x" a wide berth. It too much implies ownership of votes.
Except when there are relatively small differences- like when Greens run against Labour leftwingers, as they did v David Drew last time in Stroud. It would be absurd for some Blairite goon to patronise Green voters like that.
Though of course Stroud is a long standing Green hotspot and it isn't realistic to expect them not to stand there.

(I expect Drew may be more pi**ed off with UKIP standing last time, after they had publicly stated they wouldn't and would back him instead)

Agree about Khan, though - Temulkar may want him to behave in the way he describes, but I suspect he will be rather more nuanced
Hmm going on the opinions voiced here it will be a load of 'betraying the left and letting the tories in' what other tactics do you have? You can't out-green the greens and unlike UKIP we actually have costed policies that are undeniably left wing. You cant even take our policies and try and claim only you can deliver them, because your party doesnt believe in our policies.

A policy debate with the Greens will merely expose just how appallingly right wing Labour is, so Sadiq has to avoid that at all costs. All he has left are insults and smears.

And every insult and smear, every patronising dismissal of green voters or there concerns, and most especially every time the traitor label is thrown out will just build our popularity.

Well, it maybe helps that Khan is one of those who *would* like Labour to be a bit less right wing......

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:41 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:I don't think free home insulation is purely a Green policy, I have had it done under Labour and this shower?

Not on the scale, and ideas like removing the VAT on insulation costs are an anathema to Labour.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:53 pm

I'll argue against that pension rise, straight off.
I looked at the deficit on current spending. Doesn't exactly scream "loads more current spending, please".

Doubtless that minimum wage figure has been rigorously modelled. Would be by far the highest in Europe. Going to slot that into the UK with all its regional variations?

I'll pass, thanks.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:56 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:Incidentally, what (apart from the obvious) prompted the David Nuttall insight earlier? Has he been more obnoxious than usual?

I nearly missed this....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 92465.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh how we laughed. UKIP are too PC for him? In what universe, etc, etc...

Re Nuttall he spoke in the H of C. against the Keeley Ten Minute Rule Bill (I note he didn't actually vote against)about exemptions from the bedroom tax for Carers..Just came across as a particular obnoxious twit with mentions of "spare rooms"when their clearly not;"subsidy" when it is clearly vast cost saving and the "something for nothing" opposite of the truth.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 6:59 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: Though of course Stroud is a long standing Green hotspot and it isn't realistic to expect them not to stand there.

(I expect Drew may be more pi**ed off with UKIP standing last time, after they had publicly stated they wouldn't and would back him instead)

Agree about Khan, though - Temulkar may want him to behave in the way he describes, but I suspect he will be rather more nuanced
Hmm going on the opinions voiced here it will be a load of 'betraying the left and letting the tories in' what other tactics do you have? You can't out-green the greens and unlike UKIP we actually have costed policies that are undeniably left wing. You cant even take our policies and try and claim only you can deliver them, because your party doesnt believe in our policies.

A policy debate with the Greens will merely expose just how appallingly right wing Labour is, so Sadiq has to avoid that at all costs. All he has left are insults and smears.

And every insult and smear, every patronising dismissal of green voters or there concerns, and most especially every time the traitor label is thrown out will just build our popularity.
Well, it maybe helps that Khan is one of those who *would* like Labour to be a bit less right wing......

So, is he going to argue against his party's established position? That isn't going to work is it. The token left winger sent out to defend the rest? LOL.

How does he argue against a £10 minimum wage? by saying it will hurt business? by employing tory arguments a la 98? come on Labour has bought into Osbornomics hook line and sinker. Reeves is going to be tougher than IDS on the poor and vulnerable, didnt you get the memo?

You won't abolish tuition fees, you might offer a cut but it wont be believed. You brought them in in the first place. Labour won't renationalise rail or utilities, maybe a few gimmicks like price freezes but you have absolutely no idea how to square the energy company circle. Allowing govt companies to bid on rail franchises is another red herring that the electorate won't bother to try and understand and wont alleviate prices.

You wont offer an EU referendum, and your policy towards TTIP is to be in favour behind closed doors, and anemic in criticism of it in public. You won't raise taxes because your terrified what the daily mail will say. Your record on banking control and regulation is, shall we say, fucked up. And just to cap it all off you introduced privatisation into the NHS + Education.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 7:00 pm

Temulkar wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:I don't think free home insulation is purely a Green policy, I have had it done under Labour and this shower?
Not on the scale, and ideas like removing the VAT on insulation costs are an anathema to Labour.

They just don't like the idea of all the homes being insulated?
Isn't it possible they did some calculations, and found that not many extra people would do it, and they'd lose all the VAT as well?

Balls did urge a temporary cut to 5% in 2011, as a short term boost to the economy, I see. Doesn't suggest someone anti-insulation.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 7:05 pm

You wont offer an EU referendum

An EU referendum is pub bore stuff. Leaving the EU doesn't achieve anything that's claimed for it- pay in dues, obey the red tape, same access to foreign workers. Plus get hammered by the other 27 in renegotiations. And doubtless TTIP too.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 7:09 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
You wont offer an EU referendum
An EU referendum is pub bore stuff. Leaving the EU doesn't achieve anything that's claimed for it- pay in dues, obey the red tape, same access to foreign workers. Plus get hammered by the other 27 in renegotiations. And doubtless TTIP too.

Offering a referendum isnt arguing for a Brexit. It's allowing the public to decide. I'm pro EU and am pretty sure the nation would vote to stay in by a considerable margin.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 7:09 pm

How does he argue against a £10 minimum wage? by saying it will hurt business? by employing tory arguments a la 98?

Isn't there a difference between arguing a minimum wage is bad in principle (Tory position, 98) and saying there's a problem with it being too high?

You know there is.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 7:13 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
How does he argue against a £10 minimum wage? by saying it will hurt business? by employing tory arguments a la 98?
Isn't there a difference between arguing a minimum wage is bad in principle (Tory position, 98) and saying there's a problem with it being too high?

You know there is.

The politically educated might see that there are nuances, but the public will just see you defending business interest, since it also isn't too high that argument is a win win for us.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 7:19 pm

What work has been done on that figure being right?

Doubtless it's pure coincidence that it's an eye catching and round number.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 7:23 pm

You gotta laugh...and on the day when the Ofsted reports into trojan Horse came out too...

Jewish schools complain over ‘hostile’ Ofsted inspections

http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... nspections

A group representing Orthodox Jewish schools has said Ofsted created a “climate of hostility” during visits by inspectors, with pupils interrogated about sex, relationships and lifestyle during a snap inspection carried out recently.

The National Association of Jewish Orthodox Schools (Najos) has written to the education secretary, Nicky Morgan, and to Ofsted in protest at the questioning. Ofsted said its staff were following national guidelines, some of which were introduced in the wake of the Trojan Horse scandal involving Islamic influence in schools in Birmingham.

What's the betting that we'll get another change to the Ofsted guidelines when they realise that maybe they've gone slightly too far given that a Catholic school complained the other day.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 7:25 pm

Temulkar wrote:I mean are Labrou going to argue against or adopt these policies? If they argue against will you blindly go on supporting them?

- £10 minimum wage
The minimum wage offered by Labour is tied to the medium wage so would rise as that does - will yours be tied ?
- Basic income
Nice idea but before I would vote for that I'd like to know how it would/could be paid for.
- Increase of the state pension from £97/week to £170/week
See above
- Renationalisation of the railways and energy sector
See above
- Abolition of tuition fees
I understand during first term it will be dropped to 6k than reduced as finances allow
- EU referendum
I don't want one
- Against TTIP
The trade agreement TTIP id just that, a trade agreement. The controversial part, investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS), has already been "red lined" by the EU Social Democrat group, of which Labour are a member, the rest of the agreement is still under negotiation (have put some links at end about it) http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ttip-labour-wi ... ds-1453082" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Close up tax loopholes
That is on everyone's mind including Labour
- House of Lords reform
Not that bothered at the moment - more important things to get sorted
- 'Robin Hood tax' (Google it)
I don't have to "google it" thanks.
- Donations from corporations/tax avoiders etc are not accepted
Don't know Labour position on that but seems fair enough to me.
- Monetary/banking reform
Banking reform is being discussed with small regional bank proposed - more to it than that, but not an area I know a lot about.
- Free home insulation programme
They did it last time
- Save the NHS from privatisation and cuts
How many times do they have to say it?
- More liberal drug laws
No thank you
- restorative/rehabilitative justice to reduce crime and re-offending
I think it was Labour brought reforms to restorative/rehabilitative justice
- End fractional reserve banking
See banking reforms above
- Free home insulation scheme to keep energy bills down
Is that for 2nd homes
- Investment in public services
Need to be a bit more specific,
- No more counter-productive austerity
Much as we would like to we can't just "forget" our debts but the proposed house building will help kick start the economy and though growth help limit austerity

Not sure why you are being so aggressive ? Is it really not possible for Greens and Labour to work closer together?

TTIP links
The Regulatory Part http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 151605.pdf
State of Play of TTIP negotiations after the 6th round1 29 July 2014 http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 152699.pdf
Trade policy and you http://ec.europa.eu/trade/trade-policy-and-you/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 7:29 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
Temulkar wrote:I mean are Labrou going to argue against or adopt these policies? If they argue against will you blindly go on supporting them?

- £10 minimum wage
The minimum wage offered by Labour is tied to the medium wage so would rise as that does - will yours be tied ?
- Basic income
Nice idea but before I would vote for that I'd like to know how it would/could be paid for.
- Increase of the state pension from £97/week to £170/week
See above
- Renationalisation of the railways and energy sector
See above
- Abolition of tuition fees
I understand during first term it will be dropped to 6k than reduced as finances allow
- EU referendum
I don't want one
- Against TTIP
The trade agreement TTIP id just that, a trade agreement. The controversial part, investor-state dispute settlement (ISDS), has already been "red lined" by the EU Social Democrat group, of which Labour are a member, the rest of the agreement is still under negotiation (have put some links at end about it) http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ttip-labour-wi ... ds-1453082" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Close up tax loopholes
That is on everyone's mind including Labour
- House of Lords reform
Not that bothered at the moment - more important things to get sorted
- 'Robin Hood tax' (Google it)
I don't have to "google it" thanks.
- Donations from corporations/tax avoiders etc are not accepted
Don't know Labour position on that but seems fair enough to me.
- Monetary/banking reform
Banking reform is being discussed with small regional bank proposed - more to it than that, but not an area I know a lot about.
- Free home insulation programme
They did it last time
- Save the NHS from privatisation and cuts
How many times do they have to say it?
- More liberal drug laws
No thank you
- restorative/rehabilitative justice to reduce crime and re-offending
I think it was Labour brought reforms to restorative/rehabilitative justice
- End fractional reserve banking
See banking reforms above
- Free home insulation scheme to keep energy bills down
Is that for 2nd homes
- Investment in public services
Need to be a bit more specific,
- No more counter-productive austerity
Much as we would like to we can't just "forget" our debts but the proposed house building will help kick start the economy and though growth help limit austerity
Not sure why you are being so aggressive ? Is it really not possible for Greens and Labour to work closer together?

TTIP links
The Regulatory Part http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 151605.pdf
State of Play of TTIP negotiations after the 6th round1 29 July 2014 http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 152699.pdf
Trade policy and you http://ec.europa.eu/trade/trade-policy-and-you/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm sure there are lots of people who would like to see more cooperation between the Greens and Labour, while recognising that some like Temulkar really don't.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 7:34 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
You wont offer an EU referendum
An EU referendum is pub bore stuff. Leaving the EU doesn't achieve anything that's claimed for it- pay in dues, obey the red tape, same access to foreign workers. Plus get hammered by the other 27 in renegotiations. And doubtless TTIP too.
Offering a referendum isnt arguing for a Brexit. It's allowing the public to decide. I'm pro EU and am pretty sure the nation would vote to stay in by a considerable margin.

Can't see any virtue in having a referendum for its own sake, unless people can make a serious case for leaving. Better surely just to make the case honestly- which is what Greens are supposed to be about.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Tue 14 Oct, 2014 7:36 pm

Temulkar wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:I don't think free home insulation is purely a Green policy, I have had it done under Labour and this shower?
Not on the scale, and ideas like removing the VAT on insulation costs are an anathema to Labour.

Not sure if it will be in the manifesto but the proposal to reduce VAT on new build and house extensions to 5% has been discussed in the policy review submissions.