Monday 20th October 2014

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 3:47 pm

: BecauseTheNFUWantIt.jpg (59.75 KiB) Viewed 20986 times

Damian Carrington @dpcarrington · 7m 7 minutes ago
MT @Jonathan__Leake: Disastrous #badgercull figs show 253 dead of target 615. Not good 4 @trussliz in key Tory county

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 3:56 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
onebuttonmonkey wrote:I thought I'd post this link here, because it might cheer some of the more pro-party people (who I know I occasionally antagonise) up. And even if you don't enjoy jokes about Godzilla and Chewitts, it makes a political point a few others have been trying to make (not least to me) very nicely:

The Absence Of Godzilla
http://garybainbridge.com/2014/10/19/th ... -godzilla/
Without wanting to spoil it - and acknowledging that, if you haven't read the article, what I'm about to say sounds like nonsense being burbled by a crazy person - the problem is the analogy, really. It's a question of whether the amazing scientists are really all that amazing and will, in fact, try and make everything better, or if they've just come up with a slightly smaller, less destructive Godzilla. All the same - well worth a read on a bleary Monday morning.
Hello everyone,

I've had to re register. Kept getting told my password was wrong yesterday. So I clicked the 'I've forgotten my password' link and was cheerfully told that a new password had been sent. Except it never arrived.

Anyway, the above was kind of interesting but I have a question for you all. Imagine that it was the Tories and UKIP neck and neck in the polls. Imagine it seemed pretty clear the choice for PM was between Cameron and Farrage - OK OK I know it's the stuff of nightmares but stay strong. Now who would you vote for? Would you vote Tory because they are not quite as horrendous as UKIP? Or indeed vice versa? Or would you vote for another party?

And I have a question for you.Two in fact.I don't care which party you vote for,but it seems to me that you posted your odd little scenario to either a)put a cat amongst the pigeons or b)(and this seems unlikely I know)to seek approval for your voting choice.A sort of does my bum look big in this question.
So my questions are,
1)do you not recognise the great differences between the LP and the Coalition on subjects such as education,nhs,bedroom tax etc?Did you listen to Andy Burnham yesterday?
2)In 2015 do you actually not care which party wins the election,seeing as you can be 100% sure that it wont be the Greens.Because if it is the hope over fear thing,you know that the Greens don't have a hope of forming a Government and will be lucky to gain a couple of seats.So what(whoops,question 3) are you hoping for?

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 3:56 pm

Temulkar, you say 'vote for hope not fear'. I remember a lot of people, disgruntled with New Labour, doing exactly that and voting LibDem, who were, and may even now be, just about more electable than the Greens. Voting for hope then brought despair.

While Labour got lots of things wrong, it also got lots of things right too. The current government has only got one thing right and even that is failing badly. It got itself a leader who would fool the people.

I spent most of the 80s and 90s among workless people, almost all of whom the Labour years afforded a chance. It afforded me a chance. I have a youngster who watched all hope of work disappear in 2011, it has wiped all his resilience and sense of self worth away, he had the ability to bounce back from things life threw at him then, today that has gone.

There's loads like him and far, far worse. He sees the meltdowns when people are sanctioned, and the way workless people get slung out by the ever present security guards. Came home feeling desperate that he couldn't stand up properly for a clearly disabled just sanctioned woman the last time he signed on. The mental health statistics are shocking. When thousands upon thousands are in that kind of despair, to me the responsibility is to remove the cause of it.

I can't afford to waste my vote, and I can't and won't vote for a party I hate. Hoping for a better world is a luxury for some, they are too busy surviving, and the greens won't change that soon, they simply can't.

I'd settle for a recuperation space for the nation to get a grip on how close to the brink we've been led.

rearofthestore · Post by **rearofthestore** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:01 pm

I don't know if anyone picked up this ComRes poll about EU working rules published at weekend.
Of those Conservative voters polled and asked if they agreed with statement 'All citizens of other EU countries should have the right to work and live in the UK.
AGREE 33%
DISAGREE 51%
but when asked if 'British people should be free to live and work anywhere in EU'
AGREE 49%
DISAGREE 32%
Full details at " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Is it me?

Edited to make the last statement intelligible!

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:01 pm

seeingclearly wrote:Temulkar, you say 'vote for hope not fear'. I remember a lot of people, disgruntled with New Labour, doing exactly that and voting LibDem, who were, and may even now be, just about more electable than the Greens. Voting for hope then brought despair.

While Labour got lots of things wrong, it also got lots of things right too. The current government has only got one thing right and even that is failing badly. It got itself a leader who would fool the people.

I spent most of the 80s and 90s among workless people, almost all of whom the Labour years afforded a chance. It afforded me a chance. I have a youngster who watched all hope of work disappear in 2011, it has wiped all his resilience and sense of self worth away, he had the ability to bounce back from things life threw at him then, today that has gone.

There's loads like him and far, far worse. He sees the meltdowns when people are sanctioned, and the way workless people get slung out by the ever present security guards. Came home feeling desperate that he couldn't stand up properly for a clearly disabled just sanctioned woman the last time he signed on. The mental health statistics are shocking. When thousands upon thousands are in that kind of despair, to me the responsibility is to remove the cause of it.

I can't afford to waste my vote, and I can't and won't vote for a party I hate. Hoping for a better world is a luxury for some, they are too busy surviving, and the greens won't change that soon, they simply can't.

I'd settle for a recuperation space for the nation to get a grip on how close to the brink we've been led.

You cant and wont vote for a party you hate, yet expect greens to, or at least expect us to keep silent so as not to threaten your slim chance at a majority. Aint going to happen.

rearofthestore · Post by **rearofthestore** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:08 pm

Ashcroft poll just out

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 5m5 minutes ago
The @LordAshcroft National Phone poll has the Greens ahead of the LDs
CON 28%, LAB 31%, LD 7%, UKIP 18% GRN 8%

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:11 pm

Temulkar wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Temulkar, you say 'vote for hope not fear'. I remember a lot of people, disgruntled with New Labour, doing exactly that and voting LibDem, who were, and may even now be, just about more electable than the Greens. Voting for hope then brought despair.

While Labour got lots of things wrong, it also got lots of things right too. The current government has only got one thing right and even that is failing badly. It got itself a leader who would fool the people.

I spent most of the 80s and 90s among workless people, almost all of whom the Labour years afforded a chance. It afforded me a chance. I have a youngster who watched all hope of work disappear in 2011, it has wiped all his resilience and sense of self worth away, he had the ability to bounce back from things life threw at him then, today that has gone.

There's loads like him and far, far worse. He sees the meltdowns when people are sanctioned, and the way workless people get slung out by the ever present security guards. Came home feeling desperate that he couldn't stand up properly for a clearly disabled just sanctioned woman the last time he signed on. The mental health statistics are shocking. When thousands upon thousands are in that kind of despair, to me the responsibility is to remove the cause of it.

I can't afford to waste my vote, and I can't and won't vote for a party I hate. Hoping for a better world is a luxury for some, they are too busy surviving, and the greens won't change that soon, they simply can't.

I'd settle for a recuperation space for the nation to get a grip on how close to the brink we've been led.
You cant and wont vote for a party you hate, yet expect greens to, or at least expect us to keep silent so as not to threaten your slim chance at a majority. Aint going to happen.

I didn't realise that the Greens actually hated Labour.Explains a lot.
Anyway,wasn't the final paragraph of the piece that started this discussion basically go ahead,vote green etc but don't start screaming when the country gets ruined by another 5 years of this govt.As it will.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:13 pm

Temulkar wrote: You cant and wont vote for a party you hate, yet expect greens to, or at least expect us to keep silent so as not to threaten your slim chance at a majority. Aint going to happen.

This conversation has been had on here time & time again. Nobody is expecting anyone to vote in any particular way & just as you cannot expect me to vote Green, I accept that you won't be voting Labour. There is no need to be so aggressive about it !

How many candidates are the Greens standing for the GE next year ?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:13 pm

rearofthestore wrote:Ashcroft poll just out
Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 5m5 minutes ago
The @LordAshcroft National Phone poll has the Greens ahead of the LDs
CON 28%, LAB 31%, LD 7%, UKIP 18% GRN 8%

and this

Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 7m7 minutes ago
Green party pushes Lib Dems into 5th place for 1st time in new @LordAshcroft poll; 8% v 7%. It has been coming. Lab 31%, Con 28%, UKIP 18%.

not a milestone the Lib Dems are going to relish - but great for Greens.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:15 pm

"Disabled people have been major net gainers from the NMW and there is no evidence to support the case that they should be exempt"

http://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/case/_new/news ... y=2014#751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:16 pm

Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour 5m5 minutes ago
Polls are polls etc, but Greens fourth ahead of Lib Dems makes the case for Green exclusion from TV debates harder still to sustain.

Quite.

JackPranker · Post by **JackPranker** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:17 pm

rearofthestore wrote: Is it me?

No, it's definitely them.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:18 pm

Temulkar wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Temulkar, you say 'vote for hope not fear'. I remember a lot of people, disgruntled with New Labour, doing exactly that and voting LibDem, who were, and may even now be, just about more electable than the Greens. Voting for hope then brought despair.

While Labour got lots of things wrong, it also got lots of things right too. The current government has only got one thing right and even that is failing badly. It got itself a leader who would fool the people.

I spent most of the 80s and 90s among workless people, almost all of whom the Labour years afforded a chance. It afforded me a chance. I have a youngster who watched all hope of work disappear in 2011, it has wiped all his resilience and sense of self worth away, he had the ability to bounce back from things life threw at him then, today that has gone.

There's loads like him and far, far worse. He sees the meltdowns when people are sanctioned, and the way workless people get slung out by the ever present security guards. Came home feeling desperate that he couldn't stand up properly for a clearly disabled just sanctioned woman the last time he signed on. The mental health statistics are shocking. When thousands upon thousands are in that kind of despair, to me the responsibility is to remove the cause of it.

I can't afford to waste my vote, and I can't and won't vote for a party I hate. Hoping for a better world is a luxury for some, they are too busy surviving, and the greens won't change that soon, they simply can't.

I'd settle for a recuperation space for the nation to get a grip on how close to the brink we've been led.
You cant and wont vote for a party you hate, yet expect greens to, or at least expect us to keep silent so as not to threaten your slim chance at a majority. Aint going to happen.

What is it that you hate about today's Labour Party? I can see that it doesn't come up to snuff on many specifically green issues - but engendering hatred?

Personally, I'd like to see a clean slate in economic\financial areas (eg whither "growth"? - but I've bored on that subject here before so won't rehash it). But you've got to start somewhere and I think that Labour under Ed Miliband is, realistically, the best hope we've got and the best hope we've had for a long time.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:18 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
rearofthestore wrote:Ashcroft poll just out
Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 5m5 minutes ago
The @LordAshcroft National Phone poll has the Greens ahead of the LDs
CON 28%, LAB 31%, LD 7%, UKIP 18% GRN 8%
and this
Tom Newton Dunn ‏@tnewtondunn 7m7 minutes ago
Green party pushes Lib Dems into 5th place for 1st time in new @LordAshcroft poll; 8% v 7%. It has been coming. Lab 31%, Con 28%, UKIP 18%.
not a milestone the Lib Dems are going to relish - but great for Greens.

Which according to someone on Twitter works out as

Labour 339

Tories 257

Dems 24

Kippers 0

Safely say I can live with that.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:19 pm

Rebecca wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:
onebuttonmonkey wrote:I thought I'd post this link here, because it might cheer some of the more pro-party people (who I know I occasionally antagonise) up. And even if you don't enjoy jokes about Godzilla and Chewitts, it makes a political point a few others have been trying to make (not least to me) very nicely:
Without wanting to spoil it - and acknowledging that, if you haven't read the article, what I'm about to say sounds like nonsense being burbled by a crazy person - the problem is the analogy, really. It's a question of whether the amazing scientists are really all that amazing and will, in fact, try and make everything better, or if they've just come up with a slightly smaller, less destructive Godzilla. All the same - well worth a read on a bleary Monday morning.
Hello everyone,

I've had to re register. Kept getting told my password was wrong yesterday. So I clicked the 'I've forgotten my password' link and was cheerfully told that a new password had been sent. Except it never arrived.

Anyway, the above was kind of interesting but I have a question for you all. Imagine that it was the Tories and UKIP neck and neck in the polls. Imagine it seemed pretty clear the choice for PM was between Cameron and Farrage - OK OK I know it's the stuff of nightmares but stay strong. Now who would you vote for? Would you vote Tory because they are not quite as horrendous as UKIP? Or indeed vice versa? Or would you vote for another party?
And I have a question for you.Two in fact.I don't care which party you vote for,but it seems to me that you posted your odd little scenario to either a)put a cat amongst the pigeons or b)(and this seems unlikely I know)to seek approval for your voting choice.A sort of does my bum look big in this question.
So my questions are,
1)do you not recognise the great differences between the LP and the Coalition on subjects such as education,nhs,bedroom tax etc?Did you listen to Andy Burnham yesterday?
2)In 2015 do you actually not care which party wins the election,seeing as you can be 100% sure that it wont be the Greens.Because if it is the hope over fear thing,you know that the Greens don't have a hope of forming a Government and will be lucky to gain a couple of seats.So what(whoops,question 3) are you hoping for?

No I posted my question to try and show how the article, and the viewpoint it was expressing, appears to me. I don't need approval of my political view point, at the same time, I'm fed up of being told that if I don't vote for Labour, I will somehow be responsible for what the Tories might do if they win.

I recognise small differences between the Labour party and the Tories. Many of the things the Tories are doing are continuations of New Labour policy. I remember the previous Tory government only too well and I understand why New Labour made some of the choices and decisions they took. But many of the those decisions were neo liberal and right wing. And some imo were wrong.

As Temulkar suggested, the Labour leadership don't appear to be listening to what their party members want - much of which is very similar to what the Green party want. On the vote for policies website, Green party policies are the most supported of all. Maybe the Labour leadership should listen to their members?

As to what I'm hoping for a] that the Labour party leadership start listening and b] the Greens improve their standing.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:23 pm

Temulkar wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Temulkar, you say 'vote for hope not fear'. I remember a lot of people, disgruntled with New Labour, doing exactly that and voting LibDem, who were, and may even now be, just about more electable than the Greens. Voting for hope then brought despair.

While Labour got lots of things wrong, it also got lots of things right too. The current government has only got one thing right and even that is failing badly. It got itself a leader who would fool the people.

I spent most of the 80s and 90s among workless people, almost all of whom the Labour years afforded a chance. It afforded me a chance. I have a youngster who watched all hope of work disappear in 2011, it has wiped all his resilience and sense of self worth away, he had the ability to bounce back from things life threw at him then, today that has gone.

There's loads like him and far, far worse. He sees the meltdowns when people are sanctioned, and the way workless people get slung out by the ever present security guards. Came home feeling desperate that he couldn't stand up properly for a clearly disabled just sanctioned woman the last time he signed on. The mental health statistics are shocking. When thousands upon thousands are in that kind of despair, to me the responsibility is to remove the cause of it.

I can't afford to waste my vote, and I can't and won't vote for a party I hate. Hoping for a better world is a luxury for some, they are too busy surviving, and the greens won't change that soon, they simply can't.

I'd settle for a recuperation space for the nation to get a grip on how close to the brink we've been led.
You cant and wont vote for a party you hate, yet expect greens to, or at least expect us to keep silent so as not to threaten your slim chance at a majority. Aint going to happen.

You can vote as you like. I wouldn't dream of telling people how to cast their vote. I would however remind them of the realities of this election. I'm not sure why you hate Labour so much, so many Labour voters are pro-Green. My old fashioned Labour MP supports whatever Green agenda issues come up, as well as all the human rights and wider issues I believe in. I might be lucky in this, but I do put a lot of it down to living in an environmentally aware constituency and his willingness for dialogue. If he doesn't know enough about an issue he hears soon enough.

At some point the Greens have to see the commonality, and stop thinking the moral high ground can only be held by them.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:24 pm

They other day I needed a new swear word - today Sadiq Khan supplied it

Parliament has more important priorities than this spiffwaddle
http://labourlist.org/2014/10/parliamen ... iffwaddle/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:26 pm

seeingclearly wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Temulkar, you say 'vote for hope not fear'. I remember a lot of people, disgruntled with New Labour, doing exactly that and voting LibDem, who were, and may even now be, just about more electable than the Greens. Voting for hope then brought despair.

While Labour got lots of things wrong, it also got lots of things right too. The current government has only got one thing right and even that is failing badly. It got itself a leader who would fool the people.

I spent most of the 80s and 90s among workless people, almost all of whom the Labour years afforded a chance. It afforded me a chance. I have a youngster who watched all hope of work disappear in 2011, it has wiped all his resilience and sense of self worth away, he had the ability to bounce back from things life threw at him then, today that has gone.

There's loads like him and far, far worse. He sees the meltdowns when people are sanctioned, and the way workless people get slung out by the ever present security guards. Came home feeling desperate that he couldn't stand up properly for a clearly disabled just sanctioned woman the last time he signed on. The mental health statistics are shocking. When thousands upon thousands are in that kind of despair, to me the responsibility is to remove the cause of it.

I can't afford to waste my vote, and I can't and won't vote for a party I hate. Hoping for a better world is a luxury for some, they are too busy surviving, and the greens won't change that soon, they simply can't.

I'd settle for a recuperation space for the nation to get a grip on how close to the brink we've been led.
You cant and wont vote for a party you hate, yet expect greens to, or at least expect us to keep silent so as not to threaten your slim chance at a majority. Aint going to happen.
You can vote as you like. I wouldn't dream of telling people how to cast their vote. I would however remind them of the realities of this election. I'm not sure why you hate Labour so much, so many Labour voters are pro-Green. My old fashioned Labour MP supports whatever Green agenda issues come up, as well as all the human rights and wider issues I believe in. I might be lucky in this, but I do put a lot of it down to living in an environmentally aware constituency and his willingness for dialogue. If he doesn't know enough about an issue he hears soon enough.

At some point the Greens have to see the commonality, and stop thinking the moral high ground can only be held by them.

It's easy to hold the moral high ground when you know that your policies will never be put to the test.E.g the Libdems.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:30 pm

Rebecca wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Temulkar, you say 'vote for hope not fear'. I remember a lot of people, disgruntled with New Labour, doing exactly that and voting LibDem, who were, and may even now be, just about more electable than the Greens. Voting for hope then brought despair.

While Labour got lots of things wrong, it also got lots of things right too. The current government has only got one thing right and even that is failing badly. It got itself a leader who would fool the people.

I spent most of the 80s and 90s among workless people, almost all of whom the Labour years afforded a chance. It afforded me a chance. I have a youngster who watched all hope of work disappear in 2011, it has wiped all his resilience and sense of self worth away, he had the ability to bounce back from things life threw at him then, today that has gone.

There's loads like him and far, far worse. He sees the meltdowns when people are sanctioned, and the way workless people get slung out by the ever present security guards. Came home feeling desperate that he couldn't stand up properly for a clearly disabled just sanctioned woman the last time he signed on. The mental health statistics are shocking. When thousands upon thousands are in that kind of despair, to me the responsibility is to remove the cause of it.

I can't afford to waste my vote, and I can't and won't vote for a party I hate. Hoping for a better world is a luxury for some, they are too busy surviving, and the greens won't change that soon, they simply can't.

I'd settle for a recuperation space for the nation to get a grip on how close to the brink we've been led.
You cant and wont vote for a party you hate, yet expect greens to, or at least expect us to keep silent so as not to threaten your slim chance at a majority. Aint going to happen.
I didn't realise that the Greens actually hated Labour.Explains a lot.
Anyway,wasn't the final paragraph of the piece that started this discussion basically go ahead,vote green etc but don't start screaming when the country gets ruined by another 5 years of this govt.As it will.

Yes it was, it was another attempt to scare people who support the Greens, NHA, or even TUSC to vote for Labour out of fear of the Tory party. At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters. That is the problem. If you want green voters, have green policies. Otherwise stop the drip drip assault of fear on people who are voting with their conscience, which is all that godzilla article is. Its a case of stop whining people are supporting the Greens/NHA etc and get policies that people want to vote for.

As for hating Labour, what do you expect?

I hate the fact millions died in Iraq,
I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS and Education,
I hate the malignant influence of UNUM on our social security,
I hate the fact not a single anti-union law was repealed in 13 years,
I hate the bash a scrounger rhetoric,
I hate the energy policy,
I hate HS2, Fracking, Trident.
I hate their enviromental policy,

I don't hate their voters, but I don't think you are voting for the policies you want, you are voting for the policies you fear least.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:37 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
Temulkar wrote: You cant and wont vote for a party you hate, yet expect greens to, or at least expect us to keep silent so as not to threaten your slim chance at a majority. Aint going to happen.
I didn't realise that the Greens actually hated Labour.Explains a lot.
Anyway,wasn't the final paragraph of the piece that started this discussion basically go ahead,vote green etc but don't start screaming when the country gets ruined by another 5 years of this govt.As it will.
Yes it was, it was another attempt to scare people who support the Greens, NHA, or even TUSC to vote for Labour out of fear of the Tory party. At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters. That is the problem. If you want green voters, have green policies. Otherwise stop the drip drip assault of fear on people who are voting with their conscience, which is all that godzilla article is. Its a case of stop whining people are supporting the Greens/NHA etc and get policies that people want to vote for.

As for hating Labour, what do you expect?

I hate the fact millions died in Iraq,
I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS and Education,
I hate the malignant influence of UNUM on our social security,
I hate the fact not a single anti-union law was repealed in 13 years,
I hate the bash a scrounger rhetoric,
I hate the energy policy,
I hate HS2, Fracking, Trident.
I hate their enviromental policy,

I don't hate their voters, but I don't think you are voting for the policies you want, you are voting for the policies you fear least.

" At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters".

Now this discussion is getting ridiculous.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:38 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
Rebecca wrote: I didn't realise that the Greens actually hated Labour.Explains a lot.
Anyway,wasn't the final paragraph of the piece that started this discussion basically go ahead,vote green etc but don't start screaming when the country gets ruined by another 5 years of this govt.As it will.
Yes it was, it was another attempt to scare people who support the Greens, NHA, or even TUSC to vote for Labour out of fear of the Tory party. At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters. That is the problem. If you want green voters, have green policies. Otherwise stop the drip drip assault of fear on people who are voting with their conscience, which is all that godzilla article is. Its a case of stop whining people are supporting the Greens/NHA etc and get policies that people want to vote for.

As for hating Labour, what do you expect?

I hate the fact millions died in Iraq,
I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS and Education,
I hate the malignant influence of UNUM on our social security,
I hate the fact not a single anti-union law was repealed in 13 years,
I hate the bash a scrounger rhetoric,
I hate the energy policy,
I hate HS2, Fracking, Trident.
I hate their enviromental policy,

I don't hate their voters, but I don't think you are voting for the policies you want, you are voting for the policies you fear least.

" At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters".

Now this discussion is getting ridiculous.

tell me the Labour policies that might entice a green voter then?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:40 pm

Temulkar wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Temulkar, you say 'vote for hope not fear'. I remember a lot of people, disgruntled with New Labour, doing exactly that and voting LibDem, who were, and may even now be, just about more electable than the Greens. Voting for hope then brought despair.

While Labour got lots of things wrong, it also got lots of things right too. The current government has only got one thing right and even that is failing badly. It got itself a leader who would fool the people.

I spent most of the 80s and 90s among workless people, almost all of whom the Labour years afforded a chance. It afforded me a chance. I have a youngster who watched all hope of work disappear in 2011, it has wiped all his resilience and sense of self worth away, he had the ability to bounce back from things life threw at him then, today that has gone.

There's loads like him and far, far worse. He sees the meltdowns when people are sanctioned, and the way workless people get slung out by the ever present security guards. Came home feeling desperate that he couldn't stand up properly for a clearly disabled just sanctioned woman the last time he signed on. The mental health statistics are shocking. When thousands upon thousands are in that kind of despair, to me the responsibility is to remove the cause of it.

I can't afford to waste my vote, and I can't and won't vote for a party I hate. Hoping for a better world is a luxury for some, they are too busy surviving, and the greens won't change that soon, they simply can't.

I'd settle for a recuperation space for the nation to get a grip on how close to the brink we've been led.
You cant and wont vote for a party you hate, yet expect greens to, or at least expect us to keep silent so as not to threaten your slim chance at a majority. Aint going to happen.

I'm not sure any of us have urged Greens to vote Labour. We have said we want our vote to count and at present it has the best chance with Labour but how you vote is entirely up to you.
I have spoken out for Greens to take part in the TV debates and I have no doubt others on here feel exactly the same way. More power to you.
I will pose you one question. I've given up on the human race, but I have two special needs grandchildren. Who is going to be the best bet in 2015 to make their future a little less fraught?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:43 pm

Temulkar wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Yes it was, it was another attempt to scare people who support the Greens, NHA, or even TUSC to vote for Labour out of fear of the Tory party. At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters. That is the problem. If you want green voters, have green policies. Otherwise stop the drip drip assault of fear on people who are voting with their conscience, which is all that godzilla article is. Its a case of stop whining people are supporting the Greens/NHA etc and get policies that people want to vote for.

As for hating Labour, what do you expect?

I hate the fact millions died in Iraq,
I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS and Education,
I hate the malignant influence of UNUM on our social security,
I hate the fact not a single anti-union law was repealed in 13 years,
I hate the bash a scrounger rhetoric,
I hate the energy policy,
I hate HS2, Fracking, Trident.
I hate their enviromental policy,

I don't hate their voters, but I don't think you are voting for the policies you want, you are voting for the policies you fear least.

" At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters".

Now this discussion is getting ridiculous.
tell me the Labour policies that might entice a green voter then?

Removal of the bedroom tax.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:47 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Temulkar, you say 'vote for hope not fear'. I remember a lot of people, disgruntled with New Labour, doing exactly that and voting LibDem, who were, and may even now be, just about more electable than the Greens. Voting for hope then brought despair.

While Labour got lots of things wrong, it also got lots of things right too. The current government has only got one thing right and even that is failing badly. It got itself a leader who would fool the people.

I spent most of the 80s and 90s among workless people, almost all of whom the Labour years afforded a chance. It afforded me a chance. I have a youngster who watched all hope of work disappear in 2011, it has wiped all his resilience and sense of self worth away, he had the ability to bounce back from things life threw at him then, today that has gone.

There's loads like him and far, far worse. He sees the meltdowns when people are sanctioned, and the way workless people get slung out by the ever present security guards. Came home feeling desperate that he couldn't stand up properly for a clearly disabled just sanctioned woman the last time he signed on. The mental health statistics are shocking. When thousands upon thousands are in that kind of despair, to me the responsibility is to remove the cause of it.

I can't afford to waste my vote, and I can't and won't vote for a party I hate. Hoping for a better world is a luxury for some, they are too busy surviving, and the greens won't change that soon, they simply can't.

I'd settle for a recuperation space for the nation to get a grip on how close to the brink we've been led.
You cant and wont vote for a party you hate, yet expect greens to, or at least expect us to keep silent so as not to threaten your slim chance at a majority. Aint going to happen.
I'm not sure any of us have urged Greens to vote Labour. We have said we want our vote to count and at present it has the best chance with Labour but how you vote is entirely up to you.
I have spoken out for Greens to take part in the TV debates and I have no doubt others on here feel exactly the same way. More power to you.
I will pose you one question. I've given up on the human race, but I have two special needs grandchildren. Who is going to be the best bet in 2015 to make their future a little less fraught?

My answer to that is I want your grandchildren to grow up and have grandchildren of their own. The next five years are going to be fraught regardless of whether it is labour or the tories. Certainly the conservative party can and will cause more damage, but both will be damaging.Certainly I will hate a labour govt less than tory, but the end result of both is the same. Without a progressive answer to our politics, I don't have much hope for anyones future.

So, from where I stand I am voting for your grandchildren's future too.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:49 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
" At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters".

Now this discussion is getting ridiculous.
tell me the Labour policies that might entice a green voter then?
Removal of the bedroom tax.

Greens will do that? I mean come on entice me away from the party I support, offer me something that would make me want to vote Labour instead of Greens.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:51 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:
" At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters".

Now this discussion is getting ridiculous.
tell me the Labour policies that might entice a green voter then?
Removal of the bedroom tax.

I know you were replying to Temulkar but is that all you can offer? Yes I want to see the bedroom tax removed but there's so much more I want to see too. At the 2010 g/e BNP had a policy that elderly people wouldn't have to sell their homes to pay for care. I was pretty much in agreement but I wouldn't have considered voting for them.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:52 pm

Owen Smith rebutting the Tories lie machine, any tweeters out there, if you agree with his points can you tweet this piece?

http://labourlist.org/2014/10/the-torie ... n-england/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 4:56 pm

http://www.tobyperkins.org.uk/2014/10/l ... usinesses/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Labours bold plans could end late payment misery for small businesses"

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:02 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
I don't hate their voters, but I don't think you are voting for the policies you want, you are voting for the policies you fear least.
In the world we're living in right now, is that not legitimate? Genuine question. I'm bloody terrified of another five years of the Tories. So Labour hasn't provided a vision I can really buy into. That's a crying shame, but it's acceptable compared with what will happen under the Tories.

In any case, to take the item on your list that matters most to me 'I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS [and Education]'. Yes, there was some extension of the private sector in healthcare, but it was tiny relative to the health service as a whole, and the current party has already admitted it was too much. The Tories, on the other hand, have privatised vast swathes of the health service and continue to do so. Another five years could see the NHS vanish as anything other than a badge for subcontractors. Some argue that Labour opened the door to this, but does anyone honestly think the Tories wouldn't have vastly extended the role of the private sector if it had had 0% share under Labour as opposed to 5%? And it's not as though there hasn't always been part of the NHS that's not in public hands as Primary Care has always been on a contract basis. GPs and dentists are private operators supplying services to the NHS, 'twas ever thus.

As far as the NHS is concerned, very substantially I am voting for the policies I want. Not all of them, but a large part, and most importantly, the principle of a mostly publicly owned and run service. So I think you are wrong about that, at least.

I get that some Green supporters hate Labour. But does that mean they'd prefer a Tory government? I get why the SNP might, because it means they can argue for independence more powerfully, but the Greens? Is the destruction of the Labour Party the aim?

Honestly people are entitled to vote for whatever reasons they want, but I don't have to agree with those reasons.

As for privatisation of the NHS, actually I disagree, the tories would not have dared introduce the private sector into the NHS had labour not let the genie out of the bottle. Throughout the debate on the 2012 Act time and time again the tories said you started the policy. Without that crutch they would not have dared.

Simlarly to Education, had the Acadamy scheme not been there in the first place, even Gove would not have dared be a tory minister introducing privatisation into state education.

It was possible because of Labour, they enabled it as much as the Li Dems.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:02 pm

British people are my only ‘boss’ on EU reform, says David Cameron (Guardian)

Surely that should be "is my only boss"?

Edit

And close quotes. (Fashion note - are quotes now the new brackets?)

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:06 pm

As for hating Labour, what do you expect?

I hate the fact millions died in Iraq - so does nearly everyone, yet I hear barely a whisper about other nations which we committed to dismantling under Tory rule. Why no compassion for Libya? And why does everyone forget the stance that Labour and EM took on involvement in Syria?

I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS and Education - privatisation in the NHS was a done deal in the 80s, it's hard to rebuild a country after 18 years of misrule, where so much was changed.

I hate the malignant influence of UNUM on our social security - UNUM predates the labour years.

I hate the fact not a single anti-union law was repealed in 13 years - so do I.
I hate the bash a scrounger rhetoric - there's a bit of populist nonsense from people like Reeves, but in debate this has not been present, for the most part, in fact Labour have done a lot to challenge it.

I hate the energy policy - that's what cooperation between the two parties could bring, better policies.

I hate HS2, Fracking, Trident - with the exception of Trident I expect views to change.

I hate their enviromental policy - see energy policy.

I don't hate their voters, but I don't think you are voting for the policies you want, you are voting for the policies you fear least.

The Labour Party does seem to be moving towards where it should be, but it's no easy task. There are people who would derail that process, and as a nation we will be poorer if they do. It's never been a homogenous party, always catered for a breadth of views, it had to to help gain the things we are now rapidly losing. It had a spell under one end of that spectrum, but doesn't deserve to die a death because of that. As I intimated, there's a huge silence about Tory happenings under cover of Iraq, PFI and so on, and hardly a whisper when they insult our close neighbours, with whom we need to cooperate with on all the issues you are passionate about.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:09 pm

PorFavor wrote:
British people are my only ‘boss’ on EU reform, says David Cameron (Guardian)/quote]

Surely that should be "is my only boss"?

Edit

And close quotes. (Fashion note - are quotes now the new brackets?)

I think (Matt might know better) that in the sentence the subject is the British people so are is correct. Had the Boss been the subject is would be correct. So My boss is the british people.

My grammar is improving under the tutelage of an editor but Im not 100% on it.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:15 pm

Temulkar wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
British people are my only ‘boss’ on EU reform, says David Cameron (Guardian)/quote]

Surely that should be "is my only boss"?

Edit

And close quotes. (Fashion note - are quotes now the new brackets?)
I think (Matt might know better) that in the sentence the subject is the British people so are is correct. Had the Boss been the subject is would be correct. So My boss is the british people.

My grammar is improving under the tutelage of an editor but Im not 100% on it.

I've always thought that "the public" is singular. Like , say, "the press". Close quotes. I stand to be corrected, though.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:16 pm

Temulkar wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
I don't hate their voters, but I don't think you are voting for the policies you want, you are voting for the policies you fear least.
In the world we're living in right now, is that not legitimate? Genuine question. I'm bloody terrified of another five years of the Tories. So Labour hasn't provided a vision I can really buy into. That's a crying shame, but it's acceptable compared with what will happen under the Tories.

In any case, to take the item on your list that matters most to me 'I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS [and Education]'. Yes, there was some extension of the private sector in healthcare, but it was tiny relative to the health service as a whole, and the current party has already admitted it was too much. The Tories, on the other hand, have privatised vast swathes of the health service and continue to do so. Another five years could see the NHS vanish as anything other than a badge for subcontractors. Some argue that Labour opened the door to this, but does anyone honestly think the Tories wouldn't have vastly extended the role of the private sector if it had had 0% share under Labour as opposed to 5%? And it's not as though there hasn't always been part of the NHS that's not in public hands as Primary Care has always been on a contract basis. GPs and dentists are private operators supplying services to the NHS, 'twas ever thus.

As far as the NHS is concerned, very substantially I am voting for the policies I want. Not all of them, but a large part, and most importantly, the principle of a mostly publicly owned and run service. So I think you are wrong about that, at least.

I get that some Green supporters hate Labour. But does that mean they'd prefer a Tory government? I get why the SNP might, because it means they can argue for independence more powerfully, but the Greens? Is the destruction of the Labour Party the aim?
Honestly people are entitled to vote for whatever reasons they want, but I don't have to agree with those reasons.

As for privatisation of the NHS, actually I disagree, the tories would not have dared introduce the private sector into the NHS had labour not let the genie out of the bottle. Throughout the debate on the 2012 Act time and time again the tories said you started the policy. Without that crutch they would not have dared.

Simlarly to Education, had the Acadamy scheme not been there in the first place, even Gove would not have dared be a tory minister introducing privatisation into state education.

It was possible because of Labour, they enabled it as much as the Li Dems.

That last point is untrue.

Labour fought very hard with the EU, to retain the NHS as the preferred provider. This meant private services could only be used where there was no NHS alternative.

The Tories changed this to any willing provider and effectively privatised the NHS by doing so.

To argue they did this on the back of Labour policy, and it would not have been possible without it is to ignore history. Firstly the Tories campaigned on the basis of no change to the NHS. They were in power before they announced their plans. These plans were opposed by Labour, the medical profession and the unions. They were and are profoundly unpopular with the country. The Tory party aided by Nick Clegg always intended to privatise the NHS regardless of opinion.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:18 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
tell me the Labour policies that might entice a green voter then?
Restoration of the NHS to a largely publicly owned and run service (and committing to 2.2% real terms increase in funding) So the greens will match that and make it 100% publicly owned
Breaking up energy providers from supply arms - The Greens will renationalise.
Ending admin fees for rented properties and allowing long term tenancies - Green home building and social housing program far in excess of Labours plans
Increasing minimum wage in line with median earnings - Citizens income
Pursuing alternatives to badger culling to control bovine TB - Yeah and.
Jobs guarantee for young people yep we have something similar,
Scrapping police and crime commissioners yep and were offerring electoral reform and HoL reform
Greater rights for people on zero-hours contracts - banning zero hours
Restoring 10p income tax rate and top rate to 50p - matched by greens plus wealth tax, increasing council tax bands, financial transaction tax. I believe although not sure that were also arguing for a removal on the cap for national insurance contributions for top earners, or at least a reduction.

Just a few

In all those policy areas the Greens are at least as good and in most much much more progressive in policy. Hmm that isn't enticing me to vote labour.

How about my three red lines.

Fracking
HS2
Trident.

Can you offer to rid me of any of those?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:19 pm

Hey PF - any update on the whereabouts of Mike Hancock?

: Mystery Clown In Portsmouth.jpg (50.17 KiB) Viewed 20818 times

BBC News (UK) ‏@BBCNews 13m13 minutes ago
Mystery clown "disturbing" people in Portsmouth http://bbc.in/1FrmLS7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:20 pm

@Tizme&Temulkar

I hate the fact millions died in Iraq,
I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS and Education,
I hate the malignant influence of UNUM on our social security,
I hate the fact not a single anti-union law was repealed in 13 years,
I hate the bash a scrounger rhetoric,
I hate the energy policy,
I hate HS2, Fracking, Trident.
I hate their enviromental policy,

Forgive me because I am sure you are too very committed decent human beings....
But with the vicious cuts and sheer nastiness that we've had to endure over the last four and a half years this is how I [and I suspect many others] will look at your list.

Millions died in Iraq. Yes they did. But that was then and they volunteered. Sorry if that sounds callous, because I'm very pro our armed forces and proud of them but thousands are dying in despair now due to the Coalition, and they didn't volunteer for it.
I also hate the privatisation. We are looking to EM to do something about it, given that terrible inroads have been made.
UNUM. So do we.
Anti Union Law So do I but I believe Ed is gradually doing something about it. There are a great many people that remember some of the Union's antics. It makes them a little wary. Even my father said that at times the unions were going too far. People have long memories.
Hate the scrounger rhetoric. Well I don't think I need to answer that do I?
The energy policy? We'd all like to be greener. In the meantime we have humongous bills to pay. I for one can't afford more [I really can't]

Environment including Fracking and Trident? I think we should give Ed a chance to get his feet under the table before we condemn him for that. Quite frankly when Mr Ohso and I are having to sell our home to see us into our old age, two of my grandchildren's futures are bleak and the others are going to struggle, my sons physical health and standard of living such as it is is dropping fast and will worsen as disabled benefits are cut [he's supporting his 25 years old son still and there'll be a daughter next year [he isn't on tax credits and the benefits don't cover] and with all the cruelty I'm sorry but don't give a bugger about what might be way further down the road because there's many aren't even getting the chance to peacefully see out their next few months or years.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:23 pm

@rebeccariots2

Ha! (Although if the photo' had been taken in Strasbourg or, indeed, anywhere but Portsmouth it would be that much more credible.)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:25 pm

pk1 wrote:Breaking News on Sky:

Ministers are exploring the sale of NHS staffing agency called "NHS Professionals"

I've never heard of it & was working in the NHS at the time of it's creation (2000) but here's what they are about:

http://www.nhsprofessionals.nhs.uk/nhsp ... fault.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My other half uses them to book shifts which are outside of her contracted hours so if her shift pattern has left her with a few empty days and she has nothing else on, she can book a shift. There are some people who only use bank shifts which gives them ultimate flexibility in the shifts they work.

So...that's an internal organisation which NHS staff use to book shifts in the NHS...and they want to sell it off so that someone can make money out of it.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:28 pm

Tristan Cork WDP ‏@TristanCorkWDP 52m52 minutes ago
#badgercull is over in Glos & Somerset. @NFUsouthwest say widening area will spread sabs more thinly & make it work http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/Let- ... story.html …

Tristan Cork WDP ‏@TristanCorkWDP 54m54 minutes ago
According to leaked figures, #badgercull achieved less than half its target in Glos. Farmers want cull zone widened http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/Let- ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are nothing if not predictable. Definition of insanity anyone ....?

Anyway they can dream on if that's what they imagine will happen. The more they expand the slaughter the more people will get involved. The Hunt Sabs have had a massive increase in membership.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:28 pm

@Tizme1: I'd emigrate. Seriously.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:31 pm

ohsocynical wrote:@Tizme&Temulkar

I hate the fact millions died in Iraq,
I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS and Education,
I hate the malignant influence of UNUM on our social security,
I hate the fact not a single anti-union law was repealed in 13 years,
I hate the bash a scrounger rhetoric,
I hate the energy policy,
I hate HS2, Fracking, Trident.
I hate their enviromental policy,

Forgive me because I am sure you are too very committed decent human beings....
But with the vicious cuts and sheer nastiness that we've had to endure over the last four and a half years this is how I [and I suspect many others] will look at your list.

Millions died in Iraq. Yes they did. But that was then and they volunteered. Sorry if that sounds callous, because I'm very pro our armed forces and proud of them but thousands are dying in despair now due to the Coalition, and they didn't volunteer for it.
I also hate the privatisation. We are looking to EM to do something about it, given that terrible inroads have been made.
UNUM. So do we.
Anti Union Law So do I but I believe Ed is gradually doing something about it. There are a great many people that remember some of the Union's antics. It makes them a little wary. Even my father said that at times the unions were going too far. People have long memories.
Hate the scrounger rhetoric. Well I don't think I need to answer that do I?
The energy policy? We'd all like to be greener. In the meantime we have humongous bills to pay. I for one can't afford more [I really can't]

Environment including Fracking and Trident? I think we should give Ed a chance to get his feet under the table before we condemn him for that. Quite frankly when Mr Ohso and I are having to sell our home to see us into our old age, two of my grandchildren's futures are bleak and the others are going to struggle, my sons physical health and standard of living such as it is is dropping fast and will worsen as disabled benefits are cut [he's supporting his 25 years old son still and there'll be a daughter next year [he isn't on tax credits and the benefits don't cover] and with all the cruelty I'm sorry but don't give a bugger about what might be way further down the road because there's many aren't even getting the chance to peacefully see out their next few months or years.

1 million+ dead and 3 million+ displaced did not volunteer for it, ohso. It was inflicted upon them.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:32 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
pk1 wrote:Breaking News on Sky:

Ministers are exploring the sale of NHS staffing agency called "NHS Professionals"

I've never heard of it & was working in the NHS at the time of it's creation (2000) but here's what they are about:

http://www.nhsprofessionals.nhs.uk/nhsp ... fault.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My other half uses them to book shifts which are outside of her contracted hours so if her shift pattern has left her with a few empty days and she has nothing else on, she can book a shift. There are some people who only use bank shifts which gives them ultimate flexibility in the shifts they work.

So...that's an internal organisation which NHS staff use to book shifts in the NHS...and they want to sell it off so that someone can make money out of it.

Shows how times change. I trained in 1979 - 81 & once qualified worked night shifts on surgical wards. If we wanted extra hours, we used to book our own bank shifts direct with the relevant units ie surgical, medical etc so this agency was new to me.

Selling it off will inevitably mean higher costs to the various trusts & a fat cat pocketing profits that would be better spent in the NHS

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:33 pm

Mark Ferguson ‏@Markfergusonuk 7m7 minutes ago
Stay tuned to @LabourList for all of the (mini) Labour reshuffle. There won’t be a live blog though unless it’s a maxi reshuffle instead

Oh ... there is going to be a reshuffle then. A 'mini' one ... wonder what that means? Not the same as 'minor'?

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:35 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
Temulkar wrote: You cant and wont vote for a party you hate, yet expect greens to, or at least expect us to keep silent so as not to threaten your slim chance at a majority. Aint going to happen.
I didn't realise that the Greens actually hated Labour.Explains a lot.
Anyway,wasn't the final paragraph of the piece that started this discussion basically go ahead,vote green etc but don't start screaming when the country gets ruined by another 5 years of this govt.As it will.
Yes it was, it was another attempt to scare people who support the Greens, NHA, or even TUSC to vote for Labour out of fear of the Tory party. At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters. That is the problem. If you want green voters, have green policies. Otherwise stop the drip drip assault of fear on people who are voting with their conscience, which is all that godzilla article is. Its a case of stop whining people are supporting the Greens/NHA etc and get policies that people want to vote for.

As for hating Labour, what do you expect?

I hate the fact millions died in Iraq,
I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS and Education,
I hate the malignant influence of UNUM on our social security,
I hate the fact not a single anti-union law was repealed in 13 years,
I hate the bash a scrounger rhetoric,
I hate the energy policy,
I hate HS2, Fracking, Trident.
I hate their enviromental policy,

I don't hate their voters, but I don't think you are voting for the policies you want, you are voting for the policies you fear least.

You sound like the snps.Please do not tell me what I am voting for,as you don't know a thing about me.I am voting for what I think will realistically be best for the country in the real 2015 world,and would not waste my vote on a party who have no chance whatsoever of even getting 10 mps.
Why do you think you are better than other people btw?And know why they vote for a party you 'hate'?Patronising bullshit from the comfort of your high horse.

Temulkar · Post by **Temulkar** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:38 pm

Rebecca wrote:
Temulkar wrote:
Rebecca wrote: I didn't realise that the Greens actually hated Labour.Explains a lot.
Anyway,wasn't the final paragraph of the piece that started this discussion basically go ahead,vote green etc but don't start screaming when the country gets ruined by another 5 years of this govt.As it will.
Yes it was, it was another attempt to scare people who support the Greens, NHA, or even TUSC to vote for Labour out of fear of the Tory party. At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters. That is the problem. If you want green voters, have green policies. Otherwise stop the drip drip assault of fear on people who are voting with their conscience, which is all that godzilla article is. Its a case of stop whining people are supporting the Greens/NHA etc and get policies that people want to vote for.

As for hating Labour, what do you expect?

I hate the fact millions died in Iraq,
I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS and Education,
I hate the malignant influence of UNUM on our social security,
I hate the fact not a single anti-union law was repealed in 13 years,
I hate the bash a scrounger rhetoric,
I hate the energy policy,
I hate HS2, Fracking, Trident.
I hate their enviromental policy,

I don't hate their voters, but I don't think you are voting for the policies you want, you are voting for the policies you fear least.
You sound like the snps.Please do not tell me what I am voting for,as you don't know a thing about me.I am voting for what I think will realistically be best for the country in the real 2015 world,and would not waste my vote on a party who have no chance whatsoever of even getting 10 mps.
Why do you think you are better than other people btw?And know why they vote for a party you 'hate'?Patronising bullshit from the comfort of your high horse.

When you vote for a party you vote for those policies, it's not a difficult concept to comprehend is it?

Actually as for the rest of your message I am now tired of being insulted and sworn at by people on this board because I refuse to vote labour. If you cant be polite to me then I will not be polite in return, is that said in simple enough words for you to understand or would you like me to dumb it down for you?

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:43 pm

Temulkar wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
Temulkar wrote: Yes it was, it was another attempt to scare people who support the Greens, NHA, or even TUSC to vote for Labour out of fear of the Tory party. At no point is there even a smidgen of policy to entice voters. That is the problem. If you want green voters, have green policies. Otherwise stop the drip drip assault of fear on people who are voting with their conscience, which is all that godzilla article is. Its a case of stop whining people are supporting the Greens/NHA etc and get policies that people want to vote for.

As for hating Labour, what do you expect?

I hate the fact millions died in Iraq,
I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS and Education,
I hate the malignant influence of UNUM on our social security,
I hate the fact not a single anti-union law was repealed in 13 years,
I hate the bash a scrounger rhetoric,
I hate the energy policy,
I hate HS2, Fracking, Trident.
I hate their enviromental policy,

I don't hate their voters, but I don't think you are voting for the policies you want, you are voting for the policies you fear least.
You sound like the snps.Please do not tell me what I am voting for,as you don't know a thing about me.I am voting for what I think will realistically be best for the country in the real 2015 world,and would not waste my vote on a party who have no chance whatsoever of even getting 10 mps.
Why do you think you are better than other people btw?And know why they vote for a party you 'hate'?Patronising bullshit from the comfort of your high horse.

When you vote for a party you vote for those policies, it's not a difficult concept to comprehend is it?

Jesus,will you get over yourself?I know what I am voting for.And I also know that you are voting for a party which will never have a chance to put its policies into action,so you are voting for a dream which obviously makes you feel infinitely superior to me.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:44 pm

And guess what,I don't buy organic meat and vegetables either.Bite me.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:44 pm

ohsocynical wrote:@Tizme&Temulkar

I hate the fact millions died in Iraq,
I hate the privatisation introduced into the NHS and Education,
I hate the malignant influence of UNUM on our social security,
I hate the fact not a single anti-union law was repealed in 13 years,
I hate the bash a scrounger rhetoric,
I hate the energy policy,
I hate HS2, Fracking, Trident.
I hate their enviromental policy,

Forgive me because I am sure you are too very committed decent human beings....
But with the vicious cuts and sheer nastiness that we've had to endure over the last four and a half years this is how I [and I suspect many others] will look at your list.

Millions died in Iraq. Yes they did. But that was then and they volunteered. Sorry if that sounds callous, because I'm very pro our armed forces and proud of them but thousands are dying in despair now due to the Coalition, and they didn't volunteer for it.
I also hate the privatisation. We are looking to EM to do something about it, given that terrible inroads have been made.
UNUM. So do we.
Anti Union Law So do I but I believe Ed is gradually doing something about it. There are a great many people that remember some of the Union's antics. It makes them a little wary. Even my father said that at times the unions were going too far. People have long memories.
Hate the scrounger rhetoric. Well I don't think I need to answer that do I?
The energy policy? We'd all like to be greener. In the meantime we have humongous bills to pay. I for one can't afford more [I really can't]

Environment including Fracking and Trident? I think we should give Ed a chance to get his feet under the table before we condemn him for that. Quite frankly when Mr Ohso and I are having to sell our home to see us into our old age, two of my grandchildren's futures are bleak and the others are going to struggle, my sons physical health and standard of living such as it is is dropping fast and will worsen as disabled benefits are cut [he's supporting his 25 years old son still and there'll be a daughter next year [he isn't on tax credits and the benefits don't cover] and with all the cruelty I'm sorry but don't give a bugger about what might be way further down the road because there's many aren't even getting the chance to peacefully see out their next few months or years.

I am opposed to fracking. The Labour party are supportive of the idea though with more 'checks' seemingly than the Tories. And there is the nub of it. Labour frequently are a watered down version of the Tories.

The Green party isn't just about the environment. It's about social justice too. Are Labour going to do away with workfare? Work capability assessments? Why have they started joining in with the bash the immigrants rhetoric?

As I said previously, many Labour party supporters and Green party supporters are in agreement on a lot of these issues. But the Labour leadership don't appear to be.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Mon 20 Oct, 2014 5:48 pm

frightful_oik wrote:@Tizme1: I'd emigrate. Seriously.

I can't emigrate as I wouldn't leave my elderly mother [no other siblings to look out for her]. I am seriously wondering though if I should move to Wales to escape some of the rubbish!