Wednesday 21st October 2020

Post by **refitman** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 7:08 am

Morning all

Post by **adam** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 8:41 am

Donald Trump paid nearly $200,000 in taxes to China, report claims

Tax records reviewed by the New York Times showed a previously unreported bank account in China controlled by Trump International Hotels Management. The account paid $188,561 in taxes in China between 2013 and 2015 in connection to potential licensing deals, according the newspaper.

Earlier reporting by the Times showed he paid just $750 in US taxes in 2016 and 2017.

I reckon that means he's paying about 250x as much tax to the Chinese government as he is to the US government.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 9:09 am

Morning all. Good this from Oliver Kamm.

Why are so many Brexiters also lockdown sceptics?

https://www.thearticle.com/why-are-so-m ... n-sceptics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

While a small majority of voters favoured Brexit in the referendum, for which young people in particular will pay a heavy price, there is ample evidence that health measures to contain the coronavirus have public support. Indeed, a YouGov poll this week indicated that 40 per cent of British people believe that current Covid-19 measures do not go far enough, while 19 per cent held that they were about right (and 15 per cent said they go too far).

Support for such draconian measures, even when implemented by an incompetent and hypocritical government, is evidence of a widespread belief that individual liberty involves civic obligations. In short, a civilised society has trade-offs. British public policy has been abysmally served by right-wing ideologues who fail to recognise this truth.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 9:15 am

Even more money per head for South Yorkshire than even Lancashire got.

So according to Boris Johnson's formula it would be completely unreasonable and unfair to offer Greater Manchester more than £85m.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 9:31 am

So Andy Burnham was seeking between £75m and £90m. Lancashire and South Yorkshire have got deals equalling on a per capita basis of around £80m and £85m respectively. The government refused to budge from £60m up to a mere £65m, a sum well below what others got but Burnham was willing to settle for.

Sky news are saying the money offered to Greater Manchester is "broadly similar" to other areas?! Am I going mad? How is £8 a head "broadly similar" to £28 per head?

I know we're all getting used to ridiculous numbers as nationally Boris spaffs billions on failed private contractors but £5m is still a huge sum of money in local terms, let alone £20m.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 9:41 am

No real surprise to see "Baroness" Fox voting with the Government in the HoL alongside other deserving Peers such as Austin, Stuart, and Hoey.

https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Lords ... t-contents" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **adam** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 10:27 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:No real surprise to see "Baroness" Fox voting with the Government in the HoL alongside other deserving Peers such as Austin, Stuart, and Hoey.

https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Lords ... t-contents" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the parliamentary website

: fox.PNG (10.87 KiB) Viewed 7480 times

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 10:45 am

Willow904 wrote: Sky news are saying the money offered to Greater Manchester is "broadly similar" to other areas?! Am I going mad? How is £8 a head "broadly similar" to £28 per head?

£8pp is for beefing up local track & trace, goes with moving to tier 3.

As many have said, if you had that in tier 2 you might not need to go to 3.

Additional sums for business support have to be negotiated. Bonkers.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 10:49 am

Steve Baker telling Marcus Rashford that £23m for school meals would be 'destroying the currency with excessive QE'.

(£23m is the figure I've seen)

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 10:50 am

Incidentally, it's good that the govt are admitting that QE is what they're doing, not pretending it's all borrowing.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 11:17 am

gilsey wrote:
Willow904 wrote: Sky news are saying the money offered to Greater Manchester is "broadly similar" to other areas?! Am I going mad? How is £8 a head "broadly similar" to £28 per head?

£8pp is for beefing up local track & trace, goes with moving to tier 3.

As many have said, if you had that in tier 2 you might not need to go to 3.

Additional sums for business support have to be negotiated. Bonkers.

Yes. I've been thrown, though, because that t&t money is included in the figure settled on as part of the "deal" when talking about Lancashire and South Yorkshire, so I'd been assuming £60m was the figure being rejected for Manchester's "deal". If the £60m is just business support, then fair enough, it's similarish to elsewhere (note I have been asking if I was missing something

) but then the question is "where's the deal?" . If there's a set amount of money and it's impossible to "negotiate" more then there is no "deal", just imposition. And to use fake negotiations to justify not giving the already calculated default money at all is as disgusting and disgraceful as anything this government have ever done.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 11:19 am

gilsey wrote:Incidentally, it's good that the govt are admitting that QE is what they're doing, not pretending it's all borrowing.

Still haven't got over Sunak saying we had a "sacred duty" to balance the books the other week.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 11:20 am

Dave Hill
@DaveHill
TfL chief Andy Byford confirms he still hasn't been allowed to see the government-commissioned KPMG review of TfL finances, despite repeated requests. #TfL
10:34 AM · Oct 21, 2020·Twitter Web App

Conservatives: We're all for local democracy

Also Conservatives: We commissioned a report into something we don't run but you're not allowed to see it

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 11:32 am

Post #222222 on TDP this morning.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 12:18 pm

I'd be interested to know how many teachers are teaching this as fact rather than as theory.

Equalities Minister Kemi Badenoch says any school that teaches children that inherent white privilege is a fact, rather than a theory, is ‘breaking the law’

During a House of Commons debate about Black History Month on Tuesday, she said the Black Lives Matter movement was a “dangerous trend” of teaching “white pupils about white privilege and inherited racial guilt,” going on to say: “What we are against is the teaching of contested political ideas as if they are accepted facts.”

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 12:21 pm

We're heavily into David Brent territory here...

Stephen Greenhalgh #HandsFaceSpace
@team_greenhalgh
The difference between
@ShaunBaileyUK
+
@SadiqKhan
is that Shaun has vision + ambition for London. He knows how to increase the size of London cake whereas the current Mayor only knows how to divide the capital’s cake. That is not the leadership we need at this critical time.

Sadiq Khan is currently 22 pts ahead...

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 12:21 pm

Willow904 wrote:then the question is "where's the deal?" . If there's a set amount of money and it's impossible to "negotiate" more then there is no "deal", just imposition. And to use fake negotiations to justify not giving the already calculated default money at all is as disgusting and disgraceful as anything this government have ever done.

Couldn't agree more.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 12:25 pm

PMQs:

Ian Dunt
@IanDunt
·
5m
Level 17:
Johnson's second attack on Starmer for wanting a "full national lockdown". Really dangerous area for Johnson - defining himself against a position with more popular support than his own.
Show replies
Ian Dunt
@IanDunt
·
2m
Level 18:
Starmer ignores it. Infections are up in all regions. "Regions in equivalent of Tier 2 moving into Tier 3. If they are moving into Tier 3, Tier 2 hasn't worked. So Tier 2 goes into Tier 3. Tier 3 has no end, because there's no prospect or confidence in the R rate coming below 1."
Show replies
Ian Dunt
@IanDunt
·
1m
Level 19:
I know that looks like mad nonsense written down, but read it closely. It is hard to argue with. The Tier system is a conveyor belt to Tier 3 and there is no scientific basis to think that Tier 3 can ever end

.

And then came the knock out blow. According to Starmer only Cornwall, and possibly the Isle of Wight, currently have an infection rate lower than Manchester did when they went into local restrictions.

Forget about winning PMQs. The state we are in as a country has just been clearly set out and it's a deeply worrying picture.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 12:27 pm

Lewis Goodall on the same subject.

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gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 12:30 pm

According to Starmer only Cornwall, and possibly the Isle of Wight, currently have an infection rate lower than Manchester did when they went into local restrictions.

Yesterday one of our experts pointed out that, far from having the most to lose, Cornwall has the most to gain from a national lockdown which would keep their rate down.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 12:33 pm

Also from PMQs (G live blog):

Johnson quotes figures for what has already been given to Manchester. He says Andy Burnham turned down £60m. That money will now be given to the Greater Manchester boroughs, he says.

Ha! Burnham has basically won. Manchester has got the exact money they are always going to get but he wasn't demeaned by accepting less than he knew was adequate and Labour council leaders will now share responsibility for its inadequacy with Tory council leaders.

This can't possibly be considered a "win" for Boris and a "lose" for Burnham, can it? Burnham lost nothing by trying and he's highlighted that the money all regions are being given isn't enough.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 12:35 pm

Michael M.
@vivamjm
Listening to PM QT...the questions all asked seem so trivial considering where UK is at this moment heading for self imposed on top of covid possible depression ...

like they are all in a parallel world

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 12:39 pm

gilsey wrote:
According to Starmer only Cornwall, and possibly the Isle of Wight, currently have an infection rate lower than Manchester did when they went into local restrictions.
Yesterday one of our experts pointed out that, far from having the most to lose, Cornwall has the most to gain from a national lockdown which would keep their rate down.

As someone who lives in the so far relatively unaffected South West I wholeheartedly agree. Starmer's presentation of the facts today was a wake-up. The government's current strategy clearly isn't going to stop us from eventually following everyone else into greater measures. I'd rather take action now, before people start dying, than after.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 12:41 pm

gilsey wrote:Michael M.
@vivamjm
Listening to PM QT...the questions all asked seem so trivial considering where UK is at this moment heading for self imposed on top of covid possible depression ...

like they are all in a parallel world

Well, the latest on the Brexit front (from both sides) is inching back to "there is probably going to be some sort of deal after all".

Even in normal circumstances, this country could ill afford no deal. And these are not normal circumstances.

Post by **refitman** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 1:29 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:I'd be interested to know how many teachers are teaching this as fact rather than as theory.

Equalities Minister Kemi Badenoch says any school that teaches children that inherent white privilege is a fact, rather than a theory, is ‘breaking the law’

During a House of Commons debate about Black History Month on Tuesday, she said the Black Lives Matter movement was a “dangerous trend” of teaching “white pupils about white privilege and inherited racial guilt,” going on to say: “What we are against is the teaching of contested political ideas as if they are accepted facts.”

I was shocked, shocked I tell you, to find out there's a political component to racism.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 1:55 pm

There's a surprise...

Dave Hill
@DaveHill
·
48m
TfL board member now notes that #andrewgilligan was absent from previous #TfL board meeting too
@grantshapps

@BorisJohnson
. Feel sorry for Claire Moriarty, having to field questions about government's political approach to the #TfL settlement discussions in his absence.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 1:59 pm

Sadiq Khan has just flat out accused Johnson of lying at PMQs.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 2:04 pm

About the funding to get Hammersmith Bridge fixed?

I said the other week that DoT would hang on to the money which would miraculously get released once Shaun Bailey was elected.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 2:10 pm

Oh. about TfL...

Dave Hill
@DaveHill
People call each other liars too readily these days, but having just watched #BorisJohnson at #PMQs claiming that #tfL financial problems are "entirely" the fault of the current Mayor I am afraid the PM has confirmed beyond all doubt that he is indeed a liar.
2:04 PM · Oct 21, 2020·Twitter Web App

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 2:20 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
gilsey wrote:Michael M.
@vivamjm
Listening to PM QT...the questions all asked seem so trivial considering where UK is at this moment heading for self imposed on top of covid possible depression ...

like they are all in a parallel world
Well, the latest on the Brexit front (from both sides) is inching back to "there is probably going to be some sort of deal after all".

Even in normal circumstances, this country could ill afford no deal. And these are not normal circumstances.

Michael M. is a former customs agent/freight forwarder who knows that, deal or no deal, the border disruption is going to be catastrophic.

Unless 'some sort of deal' is a complete about face to SM/CU, we are stuffed come January.

Actually the most astonishing thing about this at present is that there's every indication that Johnson still hasn't made his mind up which way to jump.
He really is beyond appalling.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 2:22 pm

And so the games continue....

David Greenhalgh, the leader of Bolton council, said he was “willing to look at” a Bolton-only package, breaking away from the rest of the cross-region negotiating block and distancing himself from Andy Burnham.

He said he had spoken to Robert Jenrick, the communities secretary, this morning, after hearing that the £60m offered by government to Greater Manchester on Tuesday was still up for grabs for individual councils.

Is there really any point to this now we know there's a formula and no one's "negotiated" anything, they've just accepted what they're given?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 2:25 pm

Ooh.

Boris Johnson and Evgeny Lebedev: a decade of politics, parties and peerages

a No 10 spokesman said: “Evgeny Lebedev is a British citizen who has made an outstanding contribution to the UK.

Of course he has.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 2:30 pm

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Tulip Siddiq's face is a picture here.

“Children have been going hungry under a Labour government for years” says Conservative Paul Scully

Ahead of a Commons debate on free meals in school holidays, Labour’s Tulip Siddiq asked him: “Do you want to feed hungry children or not?”

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 3:00 pm

gilsey wrote:Ooh.

Boris Johnson and Evgeny Lebedev: a decade of politics, parties and peerages

a No 10 spokesman said: “Evgeny Lebedev is a British citizen who has made an outstanding contribution to the UK.
Of course he has.

Well he effectively destroyed the Independent *newspaper* (as opposed to whatever pale online simulacrum now exists) by ordering them to back the Tories in 2015.

Does that count?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 3:05 pm

*Spolier Alert*

Btw for those unfamiliar with Game of Thrones, which our current situation is being compared to on social media, the plot goes something like this:

The Lannisters (aka the Brexiters) plot to take out the sitting king, Robert Bartheon (Theresa May) and install Joffrey (Boris) on the throne, upsetting the northern leaders in the process. Rob Stark (aka Andy Burnham) is declared 'King in the North' and the northerners declare war on the Southern King. After initial success, Rob Stark is stabbed in the back by the traitorous Roose Bolton - I swear I'm not making this up - and Joffrey is temporarily triumphant before being murdered by his prospective mother-in-law.

Oh and the daughter of Robert Baratheon's predecessor returns from exile to claim the throne and burns the city to the ground with a dragon. When we get to that bit it should get quite exciting....

Edited to add the spoiler alert for those yet to watch GoT who might still want to.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 5:14 pm

I was watching the Covid funding debate earlier and could fully understand Angela Raynor's fury. Along with many of the other Tory MP's who spoke Chris Clarkson went on a ridiculous tirade accusing Andy Burnham of orchestrating the entire Manchester funding debacle while accusing him of faking his concern to further his political career, before going on to completely misrepresent what Kate Green had said about using Covid to highlight the under resourcing of schools. It was an abusive rant that offered nothing to the debate, and while it would have been best to rise above it I can see why she lost her rag.

Surely it's the duty of the speaker to insist Mp's stick to the matter of the debate but Eleanor Laing, the deputy Speaker, did nothing while Tory after Tory goaded the Labour front bench and trashed the reputation of someone who wasn't there to defend himself.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 8:30 pm

Sorry I'm late.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 8:30 pm

Good evening, everyone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 8:32 pm

Willow904 wrote:So Andy Burnham was seeking between £75m and £90m. Lancashire and South Yorkshire have got deals equalling on a per capita basis of around £80m and £85m respectively. The government refused to budge from £60m up to a mere £65m, a sum well below what others got but Burnham was willing to settle for.

Sky news are saying the money offered to Greater Manchester is "broadly similar" to other areas?! Am I going mad? How is £8 a head "broadly similar" to £28 per head?

I know we're all getting used to ridiculous numbers as nationally Boris spaffs billions on failed private contractors but £5m is still a huge sum of money in local terms, let alone £20m.

Peoples' lives at stake and this is what government does

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 8:34 pm

HindleA wrote:bastards

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 9:05 pm

Rayner lost her aunt to CV19 last week.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 10:32 pm

Did not know that until today's spat.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 21 Oct, 2020 10:38 pm

Eric Feigl-Ding
@DrEricDing
36m
2) “The change by The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is likely to have its biggest impact in schools, workplaces and other group settings where people are in contact with others for long periods of time.”
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documented infections occurring when asymptomatic people are spending only minutes with others indoors without face masks

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 22 Oct, 2020 12:11 am

Eric Feigl-Ding
@DrEricDing
29m
HORRIFYING—White House is considering slashing millions of dollars for #COVID19 relief, HIV treatment, screenings for newborns in Democratic-led cities that Trump has deemed “anarchist jurisdictions”. New York, Portland, Washington DC & Seattle targeted.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't handle more than one country descending into chaos at a time

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 22 Oct, 2020 12:13 am

Eric Feigl-Ding
@DrEricDing
1m
4) “Even as the state’s weekly caseload has quadrupled in the past six weeks, bar owners and Republicans have thwarted some restrictions on public indoor gatherings, leaving public health professionals scrambling to contain the virus.”
12:10 am · 22 Oct 2020
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the symmetry is alarming

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Thu 22 Oct, 2020 12:31 am

Steve Bell's latest raised a smile at least: Arse

What a thoroughly depressing day of domestic politics. Tory bastards showing their true faces all day.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 22 Oct, 2020 12:37 am

Some people are at more risk of not making a full recovery or dying of CV19

https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/371/bmj.m3731.full.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 22 Oct, 2020 12:49 am

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA