Thursday 26th November 2020

[refitman]

Morning all.

[Willow904]

This is a long, but interesting read. It doesn't reflect well on the G:

https://unherd.com/2020/11/why-i-had-to ... -guardian/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why I had to leave The Guardian
If you were bullied by 338 colleagues, what would you do?
BY SUZANNE MOORE

[Willow904]

Meanwhile, the cynicism behind yesterday's spending review wasn't difficult to spot. Aditya Chakrabortty sums it up well:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How to make sense of Sunak's plans? They're about politics, not the economy

[gilsey]

I stopped reading Suzanne Moore years ago because usually I couldn't figure out what she was trying to say and I'm probably not interested enough to read the article, but here's a thread with replies putting another view.

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[Willow904]

I stopped reading Suzanne Moore years ago because usually I couldn't figure out what she was trying to say and I'm probably not interested enough to read the article, but here's a thread with replies putting another view.

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Fair enough, it is rather long. This bit might help provide more context, though, on why she took the letter personally:

I was discussed at “conference”, the newspaper morning meeting open to all: editorial, digital, advertising, everyone. (It looks like equality, but some people sit on the floor and others get seats, let’s put it that way.) I never go in to the office, or attend conference, but it was reported that a trans woman developer, who had already resigned some weeks earlier, resigned again that morning, because my words, my column, had made her feel unsafe. According to the news story: “the column was ‘the straw that broke the camel’s back,’ the trans employee said, following a series of pieces that pitted trans people against women and against women’s rights.”

I suspect she thought the paper would defend her because she hadn't written anything hateful about trans people or "anti-trans" and they had okayed her article. Perhaps if more than just one colleague had spoken up for her she might not have quit. She alludes to male writers who were defended by the paper when they wrote far more controversial things. It seems a fair point to me.

[RogerOThornhill]

Morning all.

I see that bogus comparison between public and private sector employees has come up again.

Rishi Sunak defends public sector wage freeze saying state workers had a '7 per cent pay premium' even BEFORE coronavirus hit and the gap is widening

Comparable jobs?
Allowing for the fact that the majority of the lowest paid public sector jobs were outsourced lifting the average for the public sector and doing the opposite impact on he private sector?
Shop workers given they're some of the lowest paid - where are they again?
What about call centre workers?

Utter crap.

[RogerOThornhill]

Re the Suzanne Moore thing, don't know the details and haven't followed it but I'd feel more sympathetic towards her if she hadn't immediately run off to write it up for the Daily Mail.

[AnatolyKasparov]

And doing the usual "I'm being silenced" thing whilst being uncritically amplified on all media platforms?

[Willow904]

Re the Suzanne Moore thing, don't know the details and haven't followed it but I'd feel more sympathetic towards her if she hadn't immediately run off to write it up for the Daily Mail.

I certainly agree the fact she has written for the Mail both now and in the past isn't in her favour generally, but she's a journalist after all. I think the point, though, is she tried to discuss issues around certain elements of trans activism from the female perspective in a left-leaning paper and look what happened. In her article she expresses regret that this debate is only happening on the right and therefore on their terms but that's what's going to happen if the left keeps trying to shut the debate down.

And, yes, I agree she hasn't been silenced generally but she has been silenced on the left. Or at least feels like she has. And a lot of women feel unheard by the left and by Labour at the moment. So what is the left, what is Labour going to do? Are they going to listen to women or are they going to keep on shutting down this debate?

[AnatolyKasparov]

There is certainly a large swathe of the left more "silenced" in the national media than Moore is.

[Willow904]

There is certainly a large swathe of the left more "silenced" in the national media than Moore is.

Of course there are always lots of other concerns. This particular topic just happens to be important and of interest to me.

And, to be frank, isn't suggesting other people's voices and opinions are more important than women's perspectives on this topic kind of why women might feel a little bit unheard and overlooked in the first place?

[AnatolyKasparov]

Well, its not as if all women have a single perspective on trans issues either.

(a debate I try to stay out of, btw)

[Willow904]

Well, its not as if all women have a single perspective on trans issues either.

(a debate I try to stay out of, btw)

Maybe my tolerance for anti-science ideology is lower than most but I can't ignore it as an issue and as long as Labour continue to indulge the "transwomen are women" brigade I won't be coming back. It's dangerous propaganda that's doing real harm to vulnerable young people and isn't doing the transgender community any favours either as protecting them as a minority really doesn't require people to deny science, so aggressively trying to force people to do so, as some elements of the trans movement are doing, will only create unnecessary resentment.

I accept I'm likely to be an outlier on this, but everyone has their red lines and I don't feel I belong in the "left" of the Guardian or large parts of the Labour Party anymore because of it.

[refitman]

I am curious what is "anti-science" about the trans movement.

[AnatolyKasparov]

No sign of cJA today?

[Willow904]

Suggesting people can be born in the "wrong body", suggesting people can change sex, suggesting trans women are women.

None of these ideas are scientifically factual.

I do recognise, of course, that some people have gender dysphoria and that in a small number of extreme cases living as the opposite sex is the only way they can cope with this condition. And I absolutely support their right to live their lives free from prejudice, but I don't need to assert things that aren't true in order to do that.

No one should be asserting things that are scientifically, objectively untrue. Vulnerable children, autistic teenagers in particular, are very susceptible to such ideas, that they often receive through the Internet in garbled and inappropriate forms. Telling any child they have the wrong body, that they need to change their body to fit some arbitrary gender stereotype, is very dangerous, can cause huge confusion and distress and doesn't in any way help those who are truly gender dysphoric, who need us to support them as what they are - people living their lives as the opposite sex.

[refitman]

Suggesting people can be born in the "wrong body", suggesting people can change sex, suggesting trans women are women.

None of these ideas are scientifically factual.

I do recognise, of course, that some people have gender dysphoria and that in a small number of extreme cases living as the opposite sex is the only way they can cope with this condition. And I absolutely support their right to live their lives free from prejudice, but I don't need to assert things that aren't true in order to do that.

No one should be asserting things that are scientifically, objectively untrue. Vulnerable children, autistic teenagers in particular, are very susceptible to such ideas, that they often receive through the Internet in garbled and inappropriate forms. Telling any child they have the wrong body, that they need to change their body to fit some arbitrary gender stereotype, is very dangerous, can cause huge confusion and distress and doesn't in any way help those who are truly gender dysphoric, who need us to support them as what they are - people living their lives as the opposite sex.

For a start, 'sex' isn't binary. There are people with what would be considered male chromosomes, who exhibit female characteristics, visa versa and people who have a mix. Chromosomal make-up isn't just limited to XX and XY.

As for people receiving 'garbled' ideas through the internet, that is why services such as Mermaids are so important. They help guide and counsel young people who have issues with their gender identities through the process of working out who they are and how they need to deal with their circumstances. And these are the services that some people are trying to defund.

People shouldn't be forced to live as the gender they don't identify, in exactly the same way that gay people shouldn't be forced to live as straight people - something I'm sure you would agree with.

[RogerOThornhill]

And within a day if saying it will definitely happen, the £30k starting salary for teachers promise gas been ditched.

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