Monday, 14th December 2020

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 5:52 am

Good morfternoon.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 7:35 am

England’s test and trace service is being sub-contracted to a myriad of private companies employing inexperienced contact tracers under pressure to meet targets, a Guardian investigation has found.

Under a complex system, firms are being paid to carry out work under the government’s £22bn test and trace programme. Serco, the outsourcing firm, is being paid up to £400m for its work on test and trace, but it has subcontracted a bulk of contact tracing to 21 other companies.

Contact tracers working for these companies told the Guardian they had received little training, with one saying they were doing sensitive work while sitting beside colleagues making sales calls for gambling websites. (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ined-staff

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 9:48 am

The government’s approach to test and trace in England – interim report
December 11, 2020
https://www.nao.org.uk/press-release/th ... im-report/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

National Audit Office (NAO) report

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 10:06 am

There's this as well.

https://archive.vn/UWnAm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

48 hours in September when ministers and scientists split over Covid lockdown

According to estimates from Imperial College London, 2.5 million people were infected between the day the prime minister ignored his expert calls for the circuit breaker on September 22 and the end of the lockdown on December 1.
The figures suggest that if Johnson had brought in measures to hold daily infections level, 1.3 million fewer people would have been infected.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 10:34 am

Essential thread on Brexit state of play.

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PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 10:43 am

Keir Starmer appears to be prepared to let Labour share the blame (or take all of it as, over time, it will be contorted into) for whatever crap "Brexit" deal Boris Johnson strikes. And it's the "over time" element that is the important bit to be borne in mind, in my view. Boris Johnson will claim any immediate glory that he can wring out of the situation, and Labour will get the blame for the damage as, over time (and nearer to a General Election), the fuller extent of the damage becomes evident.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 11:15 am

It may be just one of many things Starmer lets Labour take the blame for.

Sienna Rodgers
@siennamarla
·
1h
Asked about deportation flights. KS: "The major concern in these cases is whether the right people are being targeted and being deported... We've had a number of examples where people have had to be taken off planes because they weren't supposed to be there in the first place."

But in support of the principle generally of deporting foreign offenders if they've had all necessary legal representation etc? KS" "For very serious offences, that's the principle a Labour government brought in" (i.e. supportive of general principle)

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 12:12 pm

PorFavor wrote:Keir Starmer appears to be prepared to let Labour share the blame (or take all of it as, over time, it will be contorted into) for whatever crap "Brexit" deal Boris Johnson strikes. And it's the "over time" element that is the important bit to be borne in mind, in my view. Boris Johnson will claim any immediate glory that he can wring out of the situation, and Labour will get the blame for the damage as, over time (and nearer to a General Election), the fuller extent of the damage becomes evident.

Though past evidence on these things is that people overwhelmingly blame the government anyway.

Hardly anybody cared that Labour had also strongly backed ERM membership, or that prior to 2008-09 Cameron/Osborne supported Labour's spending plans.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 1:56 pm

PorFavor wrote:Keir Starmer appears to be prepared to let Labour share the blame (or take all of it as, over time, it will be contorted into) for whatever crap "Brexit" deal Boris Johnson strikes. And it's the "over time" element that is the important bit to be borne in mind, in my view. Boris Johnson will claim any immediate glory that he can wring out of the situation, and Labour will get the blame for the damage as, over time (and nearer to a General Election), the fuller extent of the damage becomes evident.

On the other hand, when we leave without a deal and the shit hits the fan, Labour can remind everyone that they wanted one

Anyway, surely wanting a deal isn't a problem for Labour because all the things the Tory press won't like about it - alignment on environmental standards and workers rights, closer relationship with the EU etc etc - are all things a majority of Labour supporters would be happy with.

Meanwhile, a lot of the Tories, reflecting their grassroots, would probably vote against a deal, much as many Labour MPs voted against the Iraq War. Johnson has more to lose over supporting a deal than Labour, I think.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 3:51 pm

There are arguments for Labour abstaining rather than voting in favour (voting against is probably out, not least due to the unquantifiable but real possibility that it could lead to no deal) But "people will blame them as much as the Tories if things go wrong" isn't a good reason for not voting to support any deal IMO.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 5:56 pm

Backers of 'herd immunity' shouldn't have been allowed near Boris Johnson.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... oronavirus

A report in the Sunday Times over the weekend suggests that the decision not to impose a circuit-breaker lockdown was influenced by a meeting involving the prime minister, the chancellor and three proponents of a “herd immunity” approach to managing the virus: Prof Sunetra Gupta and Prof Carl Heneghan of the University of Oxford and Prof Anders Tegnell, the Swedish epidemiologist who has masterminded Sweden’s catastrophic Covid control policy.

In March, Gupta and colleagues raised the possibility that half of the UK population had already been infected by Sars-CoV-2. This was subsequently shown to be false. In September she stated that the worst-case scenario presented by Whitty and Vallance, of 50,000 cases per day, was very likely wrong – but it has been proved largely right.

I remember going through Gupta's claims in September and if an idiot like me could debunk them christ only knows how Whitty, Vallance et all must have felt knowing she had access to Johnson. And it wasn't just that her previous predictions had all turned out to be spectacularly wrong, you could use data provided by her fellow disgrace to the scientific method Carl Heneghan to show just how spectacularly wrong they were, then use that same data coming from his own department to debunk the dangerous nonsense he was spouting.

I would assume it was pressure from the usual band of fuckwit Tory Mps who just happen to also be the brexiters with the loudest mouths that led to this audience being granted. They were the only ones moronic enough to be taken in by 'The Great Barrington declaration'. And that audience has led to the infection and death of thousands of people.

And will anyone face any consequences for this other than those who've died or are facing long term illness?

Not a fucking chance.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 6:10 pm

PorFavor wrote:Keir Starmer appears to be prepared to let Labour share the blame (or take all of it as, over time, it will be contorted into) for whatever crap "Brexit" deal Boris Johnson strikes. And it's the "over time" element that is the important bit to be borne in mind, in my view. Boris Johnson will claim any immediate glory that he can wring out of the situation, and Labour will get the blame for the damage as, over time (and nearer to a General Election), the fuller extent of the damage becomes evident.

Gisela Stuart et al make communications tricky given today's standards of journalism.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 6:12 pm

It's all a bit (never mind the) ******** really.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 6:13 pm

Anybody else been checking out potatonewstoday.com?

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 6:22 pm

Willow904 wrote:Johnson has more to lose over supporting a deal than Labour, I think.

I think Labour has a great deal to lose and it strikes me that pissing off the majority of your own MPs and voters seems an incredible act of self harm when other options are available. I can't for the life of me see why offering a free vote doesn't seem to be being discussed. Is it because they fear with enough Labour votes against that Johnson might lose the vote? That seems highly unlikely.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 6:32 pm

None of the main parties like having free votes too often as they value the power whipping gives them over their MPs.

Personally having less of that doesn't bother me, but that is where we are.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 6:40 pm

Obviously a decision can't be made until a deal has been agreed and we know what's in it, but I find it quite difficult to think of any circumstances where no deal would be better. I appreciate the problems with spin and a hostile media that makes everything the government chooses to do Labour's fault for failing to stop them, but on an issue as big as this I think it's extremely important for democracy that MPs vote. I'm sympathetic to a free vote. Abstaining feels wrong. And I'm just baffled by any Labour MP who would vote against, really, as we're at the end of the road. It's a slim deal or nothing. Why would anyone voting in the country's best interests (rather than their own and their rich mates) vote for nothing?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 6:49 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:Anybody else been checking out potatonewstoday.com?

I've rationed the time I spend on that site
It's compulsively good reading

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 7:16 pm

And one legitimate criticism of Starmer which might be fairly made is that abstaining on this might be easier, if Labour hadn't already abstained on some rather less important matters (at times seemingly out of a desire to avoid Tory/press criticism, which duly arrived in any case)

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 7:23 pm

Fair point well made Willow. Perhaps I'm like one of those Japanese soldiers on a remote Pacific island still fighting a war that's long over, but I can't help but feel that when the shit inevitably hits the fan, even with a slim deal, Labour will be in a better position if they can stand back and say 'Nothing to do with me guv'.

Voluntarily making themselves complicit in a national disaster seems like madness to me.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 8:22 pm

Unless Keir Starmer is taking a gamble on there being a "No Deal" situation. That's the only way it makes sense to me.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 9:51 pm

I think the gamble is we remainers don't have much of a choice in who to vote for and Labour need to attract Tory leave voters, which they appear to be doing, so once again we get taken for granted. I can see why that makes sense electorally in the short term but it's the long term damage that concerns me. There's no right or wrong here, it's a judgement call that could go either way. Willow's argument that voting for a deal would be in the best interest of the country is perfectly valid and when it came down to it I doubt many Labour Mps would vote against it. I just think they should be given the choice.

And if I were a Labour MP I would abstain. I would snootily hold my nose up in the air while making melodramatic exaggerated hand washing gestures and walk away.

Post by **adam** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 9:54 pm

Keir Starmer under fire for failing to challenge radio caller's racism

I know that analogising can be very imprecise, but try to imagine if Corbyn or anyone under his leadership had reacted to a blatantly anti-semitic caller, as Starmer did today to a white supremacist saying that the indegenous English population should be treated as a minority becaue in 40 years that might be so.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 10:02 pm

Evening.

GOP Congressman resigns...wonder how many will follow?

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Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 10:09 pm

@adam

Well quite. I don’t really know what more to say.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 10:11 pm

It seems Joe Biden has now really won!

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 10:12 pm

Inspired by the magnificent Potato News Today I thought I'd check out the bag of 'British all rounders' I got from Tesco at the weekend for 25p (bargain). Turns out they're of the 'Cultra' variety which is Irish and were grown by one 'Billy Logan' in Scotland (it says that on the bag, I'm not some potato detective).

You can see Billy here admiring his sprouts -

https://www.eastlothianproduce.com/about-us/meet-team/

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 10:23 pm

Shirty witch confusingly says we shouldn’t meet at Christmas just because we can (5,6).

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 10:46 pm

Oh dear...

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The Free Speech Union
@SpeechUnion
The Free Speech Union is disappointed to learn that Eton’s governing body has decided to uphold the decision to sack our member Will Knowland. No teacher should lose his or her job for challenging ideological orthodoxy, least of all a teacher at Eton. 1/11

No you twonk it was a disciplinary matter.

The funniest bit about this was seeing people actually watch the video and go "Blimey, not defending that!" and withdrawing support.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 10:57 pm

adam wrote:Keir Starmer under fire for failing to challenge radio caller's racism

I know that analogising can be very imprecise, but try to imagine if Corbyn or anyone under his leadership had reacted to a blatantly anti-semitic caller, as Starmer did today to a white supremacist saying that the indegenous English population should be treated as a minority becaue in 40 years that might be so.

While I agree his response could have been more robust it's just not his style to go laying into people. And it's not as if he pandered to her moronic utterances in any way, he made the case for Black Lives Matter and said most people want to live in a more equal soceity. I understand the urge to tear an idiot like her apart but do you really want your party leader drawn into an argument with an unhinged racist?

Perhaps if Corbyn had had the sense to be more circumspect this country wouldn't be in the mess it currently finds itself.

Post by **adam** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 11:25 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:
adam wrote:Keir Starmer under fire for failing to challenge radio caller's racism

I know that analogising can be very imprecise, but try to imagine if Corbyn or anyone under his leadership had reacted to a blatantly anti-semitic caller, as Starmer did today to a white supremacist saying that the indegenous English population should be treated as a minority becaue in 40 years that might be so.
While I agree his response could have been more robust it's just not his style to go laying into people. And it's not as if he pandered to her moronic utterances in any way, he made the case for Black Lives Matter and said most people want to live in a more equal soceity. I understand the urge to tear an idiot like her apart but do you really want your party leader drawn into an argument with an unhinged racist?

Perhaps if Corbyn had had the sense to be more circumspect this country wouldn't be in the mess it currently finds itself.

I think it would have been entirely proper to point out that she was an unhinged racist. In fact I think it was entirely improper not to. That's as true of the host as it is of Starmer.

Post by **adam** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 11:26 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Evening.

GOP Congressman resigns...wonder how many will follow?

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GOP congressman who didn't stand in November and is seeing out his term resigns from the GOP - I suspect the answer is that very very very few will follow.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 11:35 pm

Well well...

Will Hazell
@whazell
Replying to
@whazell
Incidentally, many schools in Basildon have already moved to online learning with agreement of Tory-run Essex County Council.

Repeatedly asked DfE today whether they had issued similar legal threats to them.

No reply.
10:25 PM · Dec 14, 2020·Twitter for iPhone

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 11:36 pm

Oh dear...take a look at the date at the bottom.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/wp-content/up ... ection.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 11:47 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:The funniest bit about this was seeing people actually watch the video and go "Blimey, not defending that!" and withdrawing support.

And the saddest thing is that despite it being a mish mash of misogynistic tropes you can read any day in the dregs of Reddit smeared with a thin veneer of psuedo science and bizarrely interpreted history he still has thousands of supporters, many of them young male students.

I confess I didn't watch it all the way through, I couldn't get past his assertion that women shouldn't make such a fuss about being raped because more men are raped in prison.

From what I've read it seems Eton told him not to put his nonsense in the public domain and he refused so they've quite rightly sacked him. Perhaps they were embarrassed to find that one of their 'masters' appears to have the intellectual heft of a teenage incel on 4chan.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 11:49 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:
Perhaps if Corbyn had had the sense to be more circumspect this country wouldn't be in the mess it currently finds itself.

I think the term "less of a sanctimonious arse" would be more apposite.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 11:55 pm

adam wrote:I think it would have been entirely proper to point out that she was an unhinged racist. In fact I think it was entirely improper not to. That's as true of the host as it is of Starmer.

I agree, but neither of us is leader of the Labour Party (sadly).

I refer you to the old Mark Twain maxim about never arguing with idiots in Starmer's defence.

As for Nick Ferrari we both know he's a dick.

Post by **adam** » Mon 14 Dec, 2020 11:56 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Sky'sGoneOut wrote:
Perhaps if Corbyn had had the sense to be more circumspect this country wouldn't be in the mess it currently finds itself.
I think the term "less of a sanctimonious arse" would be more apposite.

Yeah, it's all labour's fault.

Perhaps we might also now be cirumspect when people assert that 'the gays are a threat to our children' or 'the disabled are a burden'. I don't get any difference between those and 'black people are replacing us'.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Tue 15 Dec, 2020 12:10 am

adam wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Sky'sGoneOut wrote:
Perhaps if Corbyn had had the sense to be more circumspect this country wouldn't be in the mess it currently finds itself.
I think the term "less of a sanctimonious arse" would be more apposite.
Yeah, it's all labour's fault.

Perhaps we might also now be cirumspect when people assert that 'the gays are a threat to our children' or 'the disabled are a burden'. I don't get any difference between those and 'black people are replacing us'.

Come on mate, nobody is saying it's all Labour's fault apart from you having a go at Starmer for not doing what you (and I) would have done.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Tue 15 Dec, 2020 12:17 am

PorFavor wrote:
Sky'sGoneOut wrote:
Perhaps if Corbyn had had the sense to be more circumspect this country wouldn't be in the mess it currently finds itself.
I think the term "less of a sanctimonious arse" would be more apposite.

You're superfluously adding sanctimonious to your sentences again.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Tue 15 Dec, 2020 1:42 am

[youtube]dYmRnl_J9GI[/youtube]

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Dec, 2020 1:53 am

That was a very sad song - especially the "I'm waiting at the wrong pole" bit.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Tue 15 Dec, 2020 1:57 am

That's the funniest line in the song.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Tue 15 Dec, 2020 2:04 am

Just goes to show how we can all look at the same thing and come to different conclusions.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 15 Dec, 2020 2:06 am

That German sense of humour. Gets me every time.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Tue 15 Dec, 2020 2:11 am

It's an aquired taste.