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 Post subject: Monday 11th January 2021
PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 7:08 am 
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 9:18 am 
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Good morning.

An unlikely source maybe but this is welcome from a Tory MP.

Neil O’Brien: Trumpism in Britain. It’s time to call out those in the media who cynically feed the cranks, rioters and conspiracists.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thecol ... cists.html

Quote:
The US has gone further down the road of polarisation than other places. People increasingly live with in neighbourhoods with likeminded people. The national conversation has been curdling for decades into extreme left and extreme right bubbles, with disastrous effects on politics.

The same technologies are having similar effects here. If we had faced the current pandemic in, say, 1992, how would you have got news about it? Perhaps there would have been a “Covid-92” page on Ceefax.

But if you’d wanted to spread the idea that vaccines are poisons, dreamed up by Bill Gates, you had nowhere to go but Speakers Corner really. So the man I met this summer, who so readily absorbed all this nonsense, would simply have been unlikely to encounter such ideas. These days, someone like Toby Young can set up a website to give people a dose of covid-sceptic propaganda every day. Crank “scientists” can rapidly gain a huge following on twitter.

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 10:03 am 
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https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidHenigUK ... 9055538183

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David Henig
@DavidHenigUK
Today, in "predicted consequences of Brexit turn out to be right", our first entry is some shortages of fresh fruit and veg...

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 10:23 am 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:

An unlikely source maybe but this is welcome from a Tory MP.


And another, Caroline Nokes

Government’s ‘inhuman’ approach to immigration will not work and will cost more, says former Home Office minister

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 10:25 am 
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Neil O'Brien tweets sensible things but on tv the other day he was just another tory.

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 10:34 am 
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gilsey wrote:
Neil O'Brien tweets sensible things but on tv the other day he was just another tory.


Missed that, but some did comment that his heart didn't really seem to be in it.


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 10:36 am 
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Jonn Elledge
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If the Tories began openly hunting poor people for sport, we'd suddenly get a flood of news segments offering tips on hiding and asking why the British public weren't better at running away


https://twitter.com/JonnElledge/status/ ... 6222056448

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 10:53 am 
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Good morning, everyone.


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 11:21 am 
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"Do away with support bubbles that are literally essential for many people, but keep construction sites and the like fully open".

Yep, makes perfect sense.


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 11:49 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... t-reversal

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Starmer told Marr, however, that he was ruling out the sort of extensive renegotiation of the Brexit treaty that would be required to restore free movement.

“I don’t think that there’s scope for major renegotiation. We’ve just had four years of negotiation. We’ve arrived at a treaty and now we’ve got to make that treaty work,” he said.


Although I very much appreciate others' sentiments about this, personally I find it hard to fault the practicality behind this. Changing our relationship with the EU isn't a unilateral process. The Tories have hugely strained our relationship with the EU. The first step to mending that relationship is to stop dicking them around and acting like the universe revolves around the UK. The other consideration is this. The Tories are quite comfortable with wasting huge amounts of time and resources on marginal arguments over Europe at the expense of things like social care, housing and child poverty but for Labour our position in relation to the EU has to be weighed against a long list of neglected domestic priorities and in terms of greatest positive impacts on the lives of ordinary people there are a lot of issues that come much higher than re-instating freedom of movement. It's a question of the effort (completely revising an international treaty through months and years of renegotiation) versus the potential gain. I don't know whether Labour would focus that effort in exactly the places I would like to see, such as abolishing and replacing universal credit for example, but I'm not unhappy in general about a change of focus. We didn't need to leave the EU to fix our domestic problems and if you believe that then it has to follow that you can also see that we don't need to rejoin the EU to fix them either. It would be nice to rejoin, and I will always support that, but I think it's important not to blow it up into something that is necessary. We can treat EU citizens living and working here well, regardless of freedom of movement, and through good relations with the EU UK citizens in the Europe can hopefully be treated well in kind. If the the last five years have shown us one thing it is that outcomes are more important than processes. The Tories manipulated people into thinking that the means - leaving the EU - was the actually the end, to the point it didn't matter what the outcome for peoples' lives was, just that we did it. I think we have to be careful that we don't do the same in reverse but focus on the outcomes we want, such as wanting EU citizens to be welcome in the UK and vice versa, rather than the specific method we use to achieve that.

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 12:03 pm 
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That's basically why my reaction to it was a bit of a shrug, as I said yesterday.

It *is* true that supporting free movement was one of KS's "pledges" during last year's leadership election - and some will understandably feel a bit sore because of that - but it always struck me as the likeliest (and earliest) one to be dumped.


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 12:16 pm 
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"supporting free movement was one of KS's "pledges" during last year's leadership election - and some will understandably feel a bit sore because of that"

Yes - just a bit.


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 12:43 pm 
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Quote:
MAGA Hellsite Parler Drops Offline After Amazon Yanks Support

INTO THE VOID (Daily Beast)


https://www.thedailybeast.com/parler-drops-offline-after-amazon-yanks-support-for-maga-hellsite?via=newsletter&source=CSAMedition


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 12:45 pm 
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@Willow904
Excellent post, thank you.


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 12:54 pm 
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@Willow904

I'm sure that you don't mean it that way, but isn't that a very British (English?) way of looking at things? "You'll never be our equals but we'll treat you nicely (as long as you're useful to us), anyway?"


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 1:12 pm 
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Epsom Racecourse is getting an awful lot of free publicity out of the vaccine push . . .


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 1:54 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
@Willow904

I'm sure that you don't mean it that way, but isn't that a very British (English?) way of looking at things? "You'll never be our equals but we'll treat you nicely (as long as you're useful to us), anyway?"


No, I really didn't mean it that way. I mean, freedom of movement of people is part of the single market that we've chosen to leave, to get it back means reversing Brexit but what is it that people really want from freedom of movement? If it's about being able to easily work and travel in the EU, there are other ways to achieve that. Third party arrangements can vary , we can have good and close relations that benefit everyone. Or we can exploit EU workers and give them poor pay and conditions and expect the same for UK citizens in EU countries. Part of why the Tories wanted to leave the EU was because they don't want to give EU workers equal pay and rights but that doesn't mean we can't choose to and if we do, we will hopefully be able to live and work in the EU on similar, respectful terms. The Tories want to be a low regulation thorn in the EU's side but we could just as easily be a co-operative and valued neighbour. And if we are for long enough, even though it was the one thing the EU really wanted to avoid, we may eventually be able to evolve a close but bespoke relationship more akkn to

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 2:02 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Epsom Racecourse is getting an awful lot of free publicity out of the vaccine push . . .


Is there a link with the government that we should know about?


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 2:26 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
@Willow904

I'm sure that you don't mean it that way, but isn't that a very British (English?) way of looking at things? "You'll never be our equals but we'll treat you nicely (as long as you're useful to us), anyway?"


What I meant was that we can unilaterally treat EU citizens working in this country as equals in law even though we don't have to anymore and if we do that there is a higher likelihood that UK citizens will be treated fairly in EU countries in return. I'm talking about building new reciprocal arrangements that achieve similar things to what we lost but in a bespoke manner. For instance, "freedom of movement of people" is one of the four freedoms of the single market. The only way to get it back would be to rejoin the single market which would be politically difficult to gain British public support for and hard to get the EU to immediately re-open negotiations for. It may be better to concentrate on adding to, rather than fundamentally changing our basic agreement. We could try to improve access to the EU for workers in the entertainment industry, or enter new bespoke arrangements that allows more access for financial services and so on. In some ways the slimness of our current deal is an advantage as there is little to object to and huge scope for adding to and evolving it into something far more comprehensive over time.

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 2:48 pm 
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Sorry about the double post there. I thought I'd lost the first one half way through and started again. That was going to be "akin to Switzerland" originally. It's what the EU expected us to want and really wanted to avoid but it's an advantageous arrangement that we'd be mad not to pursue over time. Trust and respect for each other as equal partners is key. The Tories would never deliver it, but Labour potentially could.

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 2:52 pm 
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@Willow904

Thanks for taking the trouble to present a coherent argument. But I feel it unlikely that we'll get better than we previously had. It's a sane but still a hopeful"Brexit" position which I think the EU would be daft to go for.


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 4:02 pm 
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Oh we certainly won't ever get anything better than we had or even similar. But then we don't deserve to either. When it comes to international relations we have to take responsibility for what we have done as a country. We can't chop and change trade deals with every government. That's a reality we have to live with.
I just see this as Starmer being practical. I'm sure he'll find many ways to disappoint me in time but I can't really be disappointed with him over hard Brexit. That was Johnson's doing while Starmer was one of the few voices in Labour who argued for staying in the single market, while Corbyn and co were insisting we had to leave and the other lot were foolishly arguing for another referendum.

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 6:07 pm 
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Quote:
Momentum

@PeoplesMomentum
Labour Lord Shami Chakrabarti has introduced an amendment to the Spy Cops bill which would mean that undercover police are not immune from prosecution if they break the law

The leadership are going to whip to abstain on it. This is a huge mistake.


https://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/sta ... 6443381763?


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 7:07 pm 
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Quote:
Trump impeachment: Democrats formally charge president with inciting insurrection

Trump set to become the first president to be impeached twice
Pelosi: Trump a ‘deranged, unhinged, dangerous president’

(Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/11/trump-impeachment-house-democrats-charge-president-with-incitement-of-insurrection


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 7:56 pm 
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Quote:
With a government this bad in charge of the UK during Covid, how do we respond?
Zoe Williams

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... d-planning
I highly recommend reading it. Forgive me for not quoting from it or giving it a summary. I've had to do necessary errands outside today and I'm exhausted.


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 8:24 pm 
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Currently a "Trump has quit" rumour doing the rounds.


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 8:30 pm 
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off-topic :shock: but handy:

UHTCEARE
“There is a single Old English word meaning ‘lying awake before dawn and worrying."
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/530 ... d-be-using

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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 8:58 pm 
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tinyclanger2 wrote:
off-topic :shock: but handy:

UHTCEARE
“There is a single Old English word meaning ‘lying awake before dawn and worrying."
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/530 ... d-be-using
UHTCEARE written down looks a dismaying acronym no one can remember of what


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 8:59 pm 
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Quote:
In the 52 weeks to Christmas Day, 604,045 deaths were registered in England and Wales. It's worth saying this almost certainly understates the likely 2020 total, since it includes a few days of late 2019, when deaths were running at far lower levels than they were this winter.

Even so, this number is nonetheless nearly without precedent. If you look at civilian deaths, the only other year in which more than 600,000 people died in England and Wales was 1918, when the final year of World War One coincided with the Spanish Flu.

COVID-19: How mortality rates in 2020 compare with past decades and centuries
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-how ... s-12185275


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 10:10 pm 
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70TB of Parler users’ messages, videos, and posts leaked by security researchers

https://cybernews.com/news/70tb-of-parler-users-messages-videos-and-posts-leaked-by-security-researchers/


That's a lot of very worried neo-nazis.


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 10:20 pm 
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Apparently a few Tory MPs have been "revealed" as users?


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 10:22 pm 
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goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jan, 2021 11:20 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Currently a "Trump has quit" rumour doing the rounds.



Disaffected staffer at the State Department apparently...

Meanwhile...

Quote:
Jay Rosen
@jayrosen_nyu
The editor of Forbes has an idea:

"Let it be known to the business world," he wrote. If you hire any of Trump’s fog machines, fabulists or spokes-critters... "Forbes will assume that everything your company or firm talks about is a lie."


Same goes for the one in No 10...

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