Tuesday 11th November 2014

[ephemerid]

Deeply unpleasant perfect description of the commentator - thank you for the updated moniker.

If I could work out how to cut'n'paste the exchange, I'd post it here. It has got worse.......

Now I have my email back, I've sent a letter to the G to express the view that this individual is the latest in a long line of nasty new posters who have the same MO as others who have been banned or who have disappeared. I suspect Rusty and Chickie are under new management, as it were, because neither have posted for a few weeks.

Show and I were nattering about this earlier. When I joined a few years ago, you could wander into any thread and find intelligent discussions - I've learned a lot from many people on CIF. Not any more - they are being drowned out by the trolls; there is a lot of deliberate baiting going on, very like what TGS got from Rusty not so long ago.
It's not just unpleasant, it is turning the G comments sections into the worst sort of tabloid-style crapola that exists elsewhere.
It's bad enough that the hacks and editorial staff are so bloody tedious these days, but many of the really good commentators seem to be disappearing, and the ones who soldier on are spending most of their time rebutting trolls and their nonsense.

I have been targeted by a CIF poster in the past - Cinimon/Flower3/other/same person - who usually stayed on the cartoon threads until she got a bee in her bonnet about me. She followed me all over CIF wherever I went, making weird passive-aggressive comments to wind me up, then accusing me of bullying when I responded. Martin Rowson told her off on numerous occasions.
She had a sidekick called FriendOfTheLeft (who was nothing of the kind) and they took to following me and LightaCandle onTwitter doing the same sort of stuff. Very weird. Then they disappeared after Rowson got really exasperated with them.

What was once a great newspaper, the old Manchester Guardian, a paper which championed the cause of the radicals whose protests led to the Peterloo Massacre, should be ashamed of itself. It's rapidly turning into something I don't want to have much to do with.
I was a staunch supporter of the G for decades - and although it still has its moments and remains a bit better than the rest, its decline is a very sad thing to witness.

Good luck with that, hope you get more joy than I did.

Oh, I don't expect to get even a reply.

They don't give a shit that their regulars are getting pissed off.

They're all about the US and Oz now.

I swear they only keep Wintour and Anagram so we can all be propagandized into supporting this coalition and the one they want in 2015 - what's the betting they go with the quislings again next time and support another LibDem/Tory stitch-up?

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Oh, I don't expect to get even a reply.

They don't give a shit that their regulars are getting pissed off.

They're all about the US and Oz now.

I swear they only keep Wintour and Anagram so we can all be propagandized into supporting this coalition and the one they want in 2015 - what's the betting they go with the quislings again next time and support another LibDem/Tory stitch-up?

"Anagram", I like that, so apt.

To be fair to Andrew he did reply to my emails (albeit with some prodding), even if the answer did amount to "meh".

[rebeccariots2]

MPs’ confidential phone calls with prisoners were monitored
Chris Grayling apologises for monitoring of at least 32 MPs’ calls, along with some between prisoners and lawyers
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... d-grayling

[ohsocynical]

Any one else noticed how little there is in the press about yesterday's furore?

[rebeccariots2]

BestAntiImmigrationReasoningToDate.jpg (46.91 KiB) Viewed 12582 times

Frances Ryan @frances__ryan · 19h 19 hours ago
The best anti-immigration reasoning to date: (via @HuffPostUK)
https://twitter.com/frances__ryan/with_replies

[rebeccariots2]

Any one else noticed how little there is in the press about yesterday's furore?

You're not surprised though, are you Ohso?

They can drag out an anti Ed story for days on end .... but a Tory shambles, nah that's not going to run. Such a shame the real Tory shambles has now been running for 4 1/2 years.

[letsskiptotheleft]

The list of applicants for the seat of Holborn and St Pancras, you have to admit Keir Starmer's statement is impressive.


http://www.camdennewjournal.com/holborn-longlist" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rebeccariots2]

John Woodcock retweeted
Kate McAndrew ‏@KateMcAndrew01 10m10 minutes ago
BREAKING: Tony Blair tells @SkyNews he's sure #Miliband is robust enough to take it (the bad headlines), and he has his full support

[rebeccariots2]

Kay Burley retweeted
Paul Kelso @pkelso · 20m 20 minutes ago
@tonyblairoffice tells @kayburley he's not familiar with @Ed_Miliband leadership travails, & swerves when asked if EM right man for job

Kay Burley retweeted
Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn · 20m 20 minutes ago
Wouldn't Labour "appreciate 60 seconds from you" on Ed Mili, @KayBurley asks Tony Blair doggedly? "I doubt it," he answers, chuckling.

[rebeccariots2]

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 53s 53 seconds ago
Ashcroft Rochester poll has Reckless on course to win next week but for UKIP but for CON to retake seat at GE. http://bit.ly/1u6zeq0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[StephenDolan]

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 53s 53 seconds ago
Ashcroft Rochester poll has Reckless on course to win next week but for UKIP but for CON to retake seat at GE. http://bit.ly/1u6zeq0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Excuse my ignorance, but how are the percentages for *all* parties showing a drop from the by election to May 2015 VIs?

[AnatolyKasparov]

John Woodcock retweeted
Kate McAndrew ‏@KateMcAndrew01 10m10 minutes ago
BREAKING: Tony Blair tells @SkyNews he's sure #Miliband is robust enough to take it (the bad headlines), and he has his full support

John Woodcock was mentioned as a possible "plot" leader in one of the weekend rags, which did surprise me somewhat.

(not that they had any actual evidence for it, tbf)

[HindleA]

http://www.sheilagilmore.co.uk/lord-fre ... abilities/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"I'm surprised Lord Freud has been so careless with respect to an issue that effects people with disabilities"(his response just ignored it )


Regarding the abolition of the percentage threshold scheme in April ,which has particularly implications for sick/disabled people who are employers of personal assistants.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Read that Ian Dunt article.

Usual sneery left outside Labour stuff. No sense of Ed Miliband taking shit all the time. Quite what was wrong with the Labour policy, I don't know. But apparently it's been "focus grouped". And the Labour candidate making an interesting personal statement isn't a policy. When he says she'll be "parachuted" in elsewhere, what he means is she'll get selected by local members, I presume. And this "another boring candidate" stuff doesn't really tally with my memory- local NHS worker in Heywood, Emma Lewell-Buck in South Shields. I wish Lewell-Buck were in the media more.

TTIP apparently not discussed, though it is by Labour, very clearly. If he means Labour doesn't promise to veto it, does he really think Greens would? There's America, Germany, France, Italy and all ready to go, and Caroline Lucas stops it all? How often does one place really veto something very big, when lots of others want in signed? And the "in secret" negotiations- because of course you'd expect the EU to tell America exactly what it's position on everything is in advance.

I expect the candidate understands the score with Labour not wanting to win narrowly on a UKIP-Tory split as well as anyone else.

[DonutHingeParty]

@Ohsocynical -

How do Tories get that way? What in the world happened in McVey's life or brain to get like that??

Look at that, will you - I used two question marks. I'll be using smileys at this rate.

From the articles I've read Conservatives are born that way. Psychopathic to a certain degree which merely means they usually stop at murder. They're certainly not what you or I would class as normal.
They certainly have the empathy bump missing.

With respect, that's monstering and othering, which is not helpful. It's the kind of attitude that leads people to say "Muslims don't care about life in the same way we do" or "Africa will always be a poor continent because they are lazy".

The attitudes that are inculcated in you at an early stage do tend to stay, and it's fair to say that those of a Conservative bent have generally come from a position of privilege where their prevailing attitude is "Well I did it, why can't you?" or they've been lucky and in the words of Warren Buffet have "mistaken luck for success and success for luck". They are generally the winners in society - the X Factor winners who claim that "Miracles can happen!" whilst we pay no attention to the thousands of discarded individuals for whom the miracle did not happen - or else they're the gamblers; the ones who think that it can happen for them; the ones who get their information from tabloids - if only the government stopped taking so much of their money for "scroungers" then they could win - they could be there with the best.

I've seen people turn from one side to the other, and every time it's been because an attitude they had based on generality was challenged when it affected someone they knew. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Tories aren't evil - they just like easy solutions, and don't do nuance.

Admittedly, I wouldn't want my son to marry one.

[DonutHingeParty]

BestAntiImmigrationReasoningToDate.jpg

Frances Ryan @frances__ryan · 19h 19 hours ago
The best anti-immigration reasoning to date: (via @HuffPostUK)
https://twitter.com/frances__ryan/with_replies

"Disruptive Spanish refusing to speak English,"

That is Hi-blooming-larious.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Have to agree with DHP, I know a fair few people who vote Tory and they are not intrinsically bad people - far from it, on occasion.

In a way, that is the tragedy - there *are* a few sociopaths in their ranks (IDS!) but I am capable of believing that even Cameron meant well, once.

But for the most part, it isn't that they are evil - but that they are wrong. Which is more tricky to deal with, tbh......

[rebeccariots2]

Luciana Berger ‏@lucianaberger 2m2 minutes ago
Great to join @naushabahkhan in Rochester and Strood #TogetherWeKhan #labourdoorstep

Yup - she's obviously not getting any support or input from Labour MPs ...

[ohsocynical]

Any one else noticed how little there is in the press about yesterday's furore?

You're not surprised though, are you Ohso?

They can drag out an anti Ed story for days on end .... but a Tory shambles, nah that's not going to run. Such a shame the real Tory shambles has now been running for 4 1/2 years.

Not surprised, but very disgusted.

[rebeccariots2]

I'm forced to post this for you - so you know what .... just what .... we have been, and still are, putting up with at Pembrokeshire Country Council. This photo says it all really - chumocracy with teeth .... sickening. Thank you to the excellent Councillor Mike Stoddart for another of his delightfully excoriating blogs dressed up as charm - without him (and a few others) none of the dodgy deeds and shenanigans would have come to light.

BrothersInArms.jpg (186.61 KiB) Viewed 12516 times

http://oldgrumpy.co.uk/2014/1611/brothers-in-arms/

and

http://jacobwilliams.com/7055/minder/

Now you know why I'm currently so keen on blogs that deal with broken and rotten local government.

[ephemerid]

@Ohsocynical -

How do Tories get that way? What in the world happened in McVey's life or brain to get like that??

Look at that, will you - I used two question marks. I'll be using smileys at this rate.

From the articles I've read Conservatives are born that way. Psychopathic to a certain degree which merely means they usually stop at murder. They're certainly not what you or I would class as normal.
They certainly have the empathy bump missing.

With respect, that's monstering and othering, which is not helpful. It's the kind of attitude that leads people to say "Muslims don't care about life in the same way we do" or "Africa will always be a poor continent because they are lazy".

The attitudes that are inculcated in you at an early stage do tend to stay, and it's fair to say that those of a Conservative bent have generally come from a position of privilege where their prevailing attitude is "Well I did it, why can't you?" or they've been lucky and in the words of Warren Buffet have "mistaken luck for success and success for luck". They are generally the winners in society - the X Factor winners who claim that "Miracles can happen!" whilst we pay no attention to the thousands of discarded individuals for whom the miracle did not happen - or else they're the gamblers; the ones who think that it can happen for them; the ones who get their information from tabloids - if only the government stopped taking so much of their money for "scroungers" then they could win - they could be there with the best.

I've seen people turn from one side to the other, and every time it's been because an attitude they had based on generality was challenged when it affected someone they knew. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Tories aren't evil - they just like easy solutions, and don't do nuance.

Admittedly, I wouldn't want my son to marry one.

That's interesting. You make some very valid points.

Back when I was an A&E sister, there was a particular period when I was doing a lot of night duties (they were 12-hour shift back then) and all I ever saw was doom, gloom, and disaster. Overdosing addicts, overdosing sad people, stroppy and/or violent drunks and people who should have taken their anti-psychotics but didn't..... then we got some overspill form various riots......all sorts.
I went through a phase of thinking that all ODs were the same, everyone was a drunk violent git, and most of their troubles and injuries were self-inflicted....at the time. I'd have given one of my precious nights off for a good old-fashioned coronary or broken leg.....and all that was compounded by the staff and police etc. on the same shifts because that's all we ever saw and we all got pissed off.

I think people who are like-minded tend to stick together, and the more they are exposed to each others' views the more entrenched they become. That "you should get out more" thing applies, I reckon.

But - in the case of the current crop of Tories, something nasty is going on. The old-style Tory - I'm thinking Heseltine, Clarke, Whitelaw - had a sense of noblesse oblige and an ethos of duty, and even if I didn't approve of some of their policies, the impression was that they did actually care about people and they were aware of their privilege. Richard Shepherd, who was furious with May yesterday, is on of the old breed. This mob in cabinet aren't the same.

It seems to me that for all her sins, Thatcher had her principles. I didn't agree with any of 'em, but by her own lights she had some.
Cameron is another animal entirely, as is Osborne and the other toffs. They do this job because they think it's what they're born to do.
The less posh - like McVey - are just useful to the toffs because they can claim they are in touch with "real people".
Even the so-called "ordinary" Tory MPs now aren't that ordinary at all. How someone like Duncan Smith, McVey, Hancock, Morgan, Truss, Grayling, and their ilk have got where they are is a mystery to me. They're all as thick as bricks. And nasty with it.

I can honestly say that I have never witnessed such viciousness and mendacity in a government in this country in my life. I'm 58.
I can forgive incompetence - but not what's happening now. That's why I despise Blair and his New Labour acolytes so much - he lied to us too and I can't forgive him for it. This shower have taken it to a new level, and their manipulation of figures and words and press releases is something I have never seen before.

No, not all Tories are the same. But the ones we have in our faces day in day out are appalling people with vile attitudes, so I think some of us can be forgiven for saying we hate them.

In fact, I'm going to get up early tomorrow just to hate them a bit longer.

[ohsocynical]

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 53s 53 seconds ago
Ashcroft Rochester poll has Reckless on course to win next week but for UKIP but for CON to retake seat at GE. http://bit.ly/1u6zeq0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think there'll be a lot of that come 2015. There is often a protest vote at council elections when a GE is in the offing.

[ohsocynical]

From the articles I've read Conservatives are born that way. Psychopathic to a certain degree which merely means they usually stop at murder. They're certainly not what you or I would class as normal.
They certainly have the empathy bump missing.

With respect, that's monstering and othering, which is not helpful. It's the kind of attitude that leads people to say "Muslims don't care about life in the same way we do" or "Africa will always be a poor continent because they are lazy".

The attitudes that are inculcated in you at an early stage do tend to stay, and it's fair to say that those of a Conservative bent have generally come from a position of privilege where their prevailing attitude is "Well I did it, why can't you?" or they've been lucky and in the words of Warren Buffet have "mistaken luck for success and success for luck". They are generally the winners in society - the X Factor winners who claim that "Miracles can happen!" whilst we pay no attention to the thousands of discarded individuals for whom the miracle did not happen - or else they're the gamblers; the ones who think that it can happen for them; the ones who get their information from tabloids - if only the government stopped taking so much of their money for "scroungers" then they could win - they could be there with the best.

I've seen people turn from one side to the other, and every time it's been because an attitude they had based on generality was challenged when it affected someone they knew. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Tories aren't evil - they just like easy solutions, and don't do nuance.

Admittedly, I wouldn't want my son to marry one.

That's interesting. You make some very valid points.

Back when I was an A&E sister, there was a particular period when I was doing a lot of night duties (they were 12-hour shift back then) and all I ever saw was doom, gloom, and disaster. Overdosing addicts, overdosing sad people, stroppy and/or violent drunks and people who should have taken their anti-psychotics but didn't..... then we got some overspill form various riots......all sorts.
I went through a phase of thinking that all ODs were the same, everyone was a drunk violent git, and most of their troubles and injuries were self-inflicted....at the time. I'd have given one of my precious nights off for a good old-fashioned coronary or broken leg.....and all that was compounded by the staff and police etc. on the same shifts because that's all we ever saw and we all got pissed off.

I think people who are like-minded tend to stick together, and the more they are exposed to each others' views the more entrenched they become. That "you should get out more" thing applies, I reckon.

But - in the case of the current crop of Tories, something nasty is going on. The old-style Tory - I'm thinking Heseltine, Clarke, Whitelaw - had a sense of noblesse oblige and an ethos of duty, and even if I didn't approve of some of their policies, the impression was that they did actually care about people and they were aware of their privilege. Richard Shepherd, who was furious with May yesterday, is on of the old breed. This mob in cabinet aren't the same.

It seems to me that for all her sins, Thatcher had her principles. I didn't agree with any of 'em, but by her own lights she had some.
Cameron is another animal entirely, as is Osborne and the other toffs. They do this job because they think it's what they're born to do.
The less posh - like McVey - are just useful to the toffs because they can claim they are in touch with "real people".
Even the so-called "ordinary" Tory MPs now aren't that ordinary at all. How someone like Duncan Smith, McVey, Hancock, Morgan, Truss, Grayling, and their ilk have got where they are is a mystery to me. They're all as thick as bricks. And nasty with it.

I can honestly say that I have never witnessed such viciousness and mendacity in a government in this country in my life. I'm 58.
I can forgive incompetence - but not what's happening now. That's why I despise Blair and his New Labour acolytes so much - he lied to us too and I can't forgive him for it. This shower have taken it to a new level, and their manipulation of figures and words and press releases is something I have never seen before.

No, not all Tories are the same. But the ones we have in our faces day in day out are appalling people with vile attitudes, so I think some of us can be forgiven for saying we hate them.

In fact, I'm going to get up early tomorrow just to hate them a bit longer.

Yes. With the old style Tories it was a sort of paternal snobbery. Expect them to doff their caps and pat the working man on the head, ignore him when possible, but at the same appreciate we were the source of most of their wealth [or had been] and they couldn't run their huge estates without us. They still had a strong link with the Victorian age via grandparents, but this lot that are in now don't have a scrap of tradition or loyalty in their bones.

[letsskiptotheleft]

Cameron urges Labour and LibDem voters to vote tactically in Rochester & Strood, now I loathe Kippers with a passion, but why should anyone vote tactically for the Tories, two cheeks of the same arse comes to mind when regarding kippers and tories

[ohsocynical]

Three reasons why the Tories are in even bigger trouble than Labour

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2014/11 ... ouble-than

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
Follow
Tory chances of an overall majority at GE2015 fall to a new low, a 14.3% chance, on the Betfair exchange
3:26 AM - 11 Nov 2014

[rebeccariots2]

This is just utterly soul destroying - should be read by every coalition MP, employee and supporter. Toynbee at her best.

No exit: Britain’s social housing trap
The shortage of housing and the impact of Thatcher’s right-to-buy scheme have created a bureaucratic nightmare in which people are stranded for years, waiting to move into a place they can call home
http://www.theguardian.com/news/2014/no ... using-trap

Warning. This article / long read has been fully beta-ised.

[rebeccariots2]

Haven't seen much, or maybe anything, from HindleA over the past couple of days. Hope things are OK. Missing those fine links he posts.

[RogerOThornhill]

I notice Boris is backing grammar schools. The fact that this is UKIP policy is probably pure coincidence...oh, and Nicky Morgan is too - one in Kent which is trying to sneak past the rules.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... mentpage=1

[Spacedone]

Cameron urges Labour and LibDem voters to vote tactically in Rochester & Strood, now I loathe Kippers with a passion, but why should anyone vote tactically for the Tories, two cheeks of the same arse comes to mind when regarding kippers and tories

There were a fair number of kippers saying that they should 'sign' Rees-Mogg after yesterday's shambles. I'm sure that'd go down well with Labour voters because he's got the common touch and is a man of the people.

[ErnstRemarx]

New troll alert over at Groaniad Towers.....

I've been posting on Aditya's article on Benyon and the New Era housing estate - a deeply unpleasant thing called TwiggyWiggy who has been so rude to me today that I can only assume it is HappyChickie under a new name.

Deeply unpleasant perfect description of the commentator - thank you for the updated moniker.

If I could work out how to cut'n'paste the exchange, I'd post it here. It has got worse.......

Now I have my email back, I've sent a letter to the G to express the view that this individual is the latest in a long line of nasty new posters who have the same MO as others who have been banned or who have disappeared. I suspect Rusty and Chickie are under new management, as it were, because neither have posted for a few weeks.

Show and I were nattering about this earlier. When I joined a few years ago, you could wander into any thread and find intelligent discussions - I've learned a lot from many people on CIF. Not any more - they are being drowned out by the trolls; there is a lot of deliberate baiting going on, very like what TGS got from Rusty not so long ago.
It's not just unpleasant, it is turning the G comments sections into the worst sort of tabloid-style crapola that exists elsewhere.
It's bad enough that the hacks and editorial staff are so bloody tedious these days, but many of the really good commentators seem to be disappearing, and the ones who soldier on are spending most of their time rebutting trolls and their nonsense.

I have been targeted by a CIF poster in the past - Cinimon/Flower3/other/same person - who usually stayed on the cartoon threads until she got a bee in her bonnet about me. She followed me all over CIF wherever I went, making weird passive-aggressive comments to wind me up, then accusing me of bullying when I responded. Martin Rowson told her off on numerous occasions.
She had a sidekick called FriendOfTheLeft (who was nothing of the kind) and they took to following me and LightaCandle onTwitter doing the same sort of stuff. Very weird. Then they disappeared after Rowson got really exasperated with them.

What was once a great newspaper, the old Manchester Guardian, a paper which championed the cause of the radicals whose protests led to the Peterloo Massacre, should be ashamed of itself. It's rapidly turning into something I don't want to have much to do with.
I was a staunch supporter of the G for decades - and although it still has its moments and remains a bit better than the rest, its decline is a very sad thing to witness.

CiF's a shithole, and it's down to the people at the Graun who've let it get that way. Any politeness went by the board a long time ago, as did any sense of rational moderation. The result? An infestation of permatrolls who rarely get modded for any reason and if banned, simply return again and again. So the quality of the posting drops like a stone because (a) the trolls are not just tedious and monomaniac, they're also largely thick and (b) decent posters - as evidenced here - give it up as a bad job as the islands of intelligent comment become ever smaller in size. Who'd want to subject themselves to that regularly?

Far better to quote the URL of an article you've found interesting and post it here for a discussion that will probably have FTNers popping up new sites and references on the same subject. End result? An interesting site with high quality input that makes CiF look like what it is: a massive dirty protest against reason and intellect.

[rebeccariots2]

Job losses look 'inevitable' as South Tees Hospitals Trust looks to save £91m
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teess ... es-8092326

... Following today’s announcement, the Royal College of Nursing’s operational manager, Peta Clark said: “It is an unprecedented ask to cut £91m from the trust’s budget in the space of three years.

"The total budget for the whole trust is only £550 million a year.

“You have to question whether that scale of cut is doable, even with the best will in the world. Let’s be in no doubt....

So we've heard about the massive scale of cuts to local authorities and councils today ... now we're hearing about cuts in the NHS of a magnitude that makes my eyes water ... and we're told Osborne 'needs' to make a further 148bn of cuts (hope I've got that figure right, relying on memory alone).

This is almost beyond imagination ...

And just after we've read that article about Benyon's multi millions made off the back of the state (housing benefit) and working poor. Sickening.

[letsskiptotheleft]

Cameron urges Labour and LibDem voters to vote tactically in Rochester & Strood, now I loathe Kippers with a passion, but why should anyone vote tactically for the Tories, two cheeks of the same arse comes to mind when regarding kippers and tories

There were a fair number of kippers saying that they should 'sign' Rees-Mogg after yesterday's shambles. I'm sure that'd go down well with Labour voters because he's got the common touch and is a man of the people.

All he needs is a pint of real ale in his hand. And a Jack Russell.

[ohsocynical]

The siren song of the neocons in David Cameron's cabinet
Neoconservatives such as Gove and Osborne sing a seductive hawkish tune – but the PM risks alienating his Liberal allies

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... CMP=twt_gu

From 2011. Interesting.

I've only just begun reading BTL comments...But so far a pleasant reminder of how it used to be.

Edited to add.....Read some more. Grown up springs to mind.

[AngryAsWell]

With a smile to our greens here, I have to say that if outright lies are the way they are looking to gain seats its not going to work.
I do hope our honest greens will be more than a little ashamed of this. Twice now I've asked - very nicely - for a link to Kate Green saying she will cut 8billion (yes billion) from disabled. Needless to say, as yet, I've had no reply. If such a link exists and anyone can provide it I'd be grateful and will apologise for doubting the greens.

Rebecca Devitt ‏@CarbonisedPleb · 22m22 minutes ago
@lizzjones18 Announed by @KateGreenMP planned £8bn cut to disability welfare despite rights/benefits+services cut to the bone by Coalition

I know she's Green from other posts on her page.

[rebeccariots2]

Isabel Hardman @IsabelHardman · 2h 2 hours ago
Why the Prime Minister spent an hour talking to children who can't vote in Rochester today http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehous ... v-cameras/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

[HindleA]

With respect, that's monstering and othering, which is not helpful. It's the kind of attitude that leads people to say "Muslims don't care about life in the same way we do" or "Africa will always be a poor continent because they are lazy".

The attitudes that are inculcated in you at an early stage do tend to stay, and it's fair to say that those of a Conservative bent have generally come from a position of privilege where their prevailing attitude is "Well I did it, why can't you?" or they've been lucky and in the words of Warren Buffet have "mistaken luck for success and success for luck". They are generally the winners in society - the X Factor winners who claim that "Miracles can happen!" whilst we pay no attention to the thousands of discarded individuals for whom the miracle did not happen - or else they're the gamblers; the ones who think that it can happen for them; the ones who get their information from tabloids - if only the government stopped taking so much of their money for "scroungers" then they could win - they could be there with the best.

I've seen people turn from one side to the other, and every time it's been because an attitude they had based on generality was challenged when it affected someone they knew. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Tories aren't evil - they just like easy solutions, and don't do nuance.

Admittedly, I wouldn't want my son to marry one.

That's interesting. You make some very valid points.

Back when I was an A&E sister, there was a particular period when I was doing a lot of night duties (they were 12-hour shift back then) and all I ever saw was doom, gloom, and disaster. Overdosing addicts, overdosing sad people, stroppy and/or violent drunks and people who should have taken their anti-psychotics but didn't..... then we got some overspill form various riots......all sorts.
I went through a phase of thinking that all ODs were the same, everyone was a drunk violent git, and most of their troubles and injuries were self-inflicted....at the time. I'd have given one of my precious nights off for a good old-fashioned coronary or broken leg.....and all that was compounded by the staff and police etc. on the same shifts because that's all we ever saw and we all got pissed off.

I think people who are like-minded tend to stick together, and the more they are exposed to each others' views the more entrenched they become. That "you should get out more" thing applies, I reckon.

But - in the case of the current crop of Tories, something nasty is going on. The old-style Tory - I'm thinking Heseltine, Clarke, Whitelaw - had a sense of noblesse oblige and an ethos of duty, and even if I didn't approve of some of their policies, the impression was that they did actually care about people and they were aware of their privilege. Richard Shepherd, who was furious with May yesterday, is on of the old breed. This mob in cabinet aren't the same.

It seems to me that for all her sins, Thatcher had her principles. I didn't agree with any of 'em, but by her own lights she had some.
Cameron is another animal entirely, as is Osborne and the other toffs. They do this job because they think it's what they're born to do.
The less posh - like McVey - are just useful to the toffs because they can claim they are in touch with "real people".
Even the so-called "ordinary" Tory MPs now aren't that ordinary at all. How someone like Duncan Smith, McVey, Hancock, Morgan, Truss, Grayling, and their ilk have got where they are is a mystery to me. They're all as thick as bricks. And nasty with it.

I can honestly say that I have never witnessed such viciousness and mendacity in a government in this country in my life. I'm 58.
I can forgive incompetence - but not what's happening now. That's why I despise Blair and his New Labour acolytes so much - he lied to us too and I can't forgive him for it. This shower have taken it to a new level, and their manipulation of figures and words and press releases is something I have never seen before.

No, not all Tories are the same. But the ones we have in our faces day in day out are appalling people with vile attitudes, so I think some of us can be forgiven for saying we hate them.

In fact, I'm going to get up early tomorrow just to hate them a bit longer.

Yes. With the old style Tories it was a sort of paternal snobbery. Expect them to doff their caps and pat the working man on the head, ignore him when possible, but at the same appreciate we were the source of most of their wealth [or had been] and they couldn't run their huge estates without us. They still had a strong link with the Victorian age via grandparents, but this lot that are in now don't have a scrap of tradition or loyalty in their bones.

My mum was Francis Pym's housekeeper for a time,staying in a cottage in his estate in Bedfordshire.He was always polite and respectful.

[ErnstRemarx]

Have to agree with DHP, I know a fair few people who vote Tory and they are not intrinsically bad people - far from it, on occasion.

In a way, that is the tragedy - there *are* a few sociopaths in their ranks (IDS!) but I am capable of believing that even Cameron meant well, once.

But for the most part, it isn't that they are evil - but that they are wrong. Which is more tricky to deal with, tbh......

And to make it worse, if they've been brought up to vote Tory (as I was for example) you suddenly have to question not just your beliefs but those of your parents who made you what you are to a large degree. And if you've actually gone and voted Tory, you basically have to admit that you've made a mistake. That's not easy for most people to do, even when faced with overwhelming evidence that the people they voted for a few years ago are genuinely malign people who, ironically, have no interest whatsoever in Tory voters, except to keep them exercising their bad habit.

[letsskiptotheleft]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... ent-crisis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very good piece, quite surprising as it concerns the Lib Dems.

[rebeccariots2]

With a smile to our greens here, I have to say that if outright lies are the way they are looking to gain seats its not going to work.
I do hope our honest greens will be more than a little ashamed of this. Twice now I've asked - very nicely - for a link to Kate Green saying she will cut 8billion (yes billion) from disabled. Needless to say, as yet, I've had no reply. If such a link exists and anyone can provide it I'd be grateful and will apologise for doubting the greens.

Rebecca Devitt ‏@CarbonisedPleb · 22m22 minutes ago
@lizzjones18 Announed by @KateGreenMP planned £8bn cut to disability welfare despite rights/benefits+services cut to the bone by Coalition

I know she's Green from other posts on her page.

Surely Kate Green is the MP that's written to Mark Harper demanding answers re the Tory proposals to cut ESA / disability benefits?

[HindleA]

Haven't seen much, or maybe anything, from HindleA over the past couple of days. Hope things are OK. Missing those fine links he posts.

I'm about,usually at odd hours.Very rarely for me,thankfully I've not been too well (fact not attempt to attract sympathy)and concentration/energy levels somewhat reduced.

[ohsocynical]

Have to agree with DHP, I know a fair few people who vote Tory and they are not intrinsically bad people - far from it, on occasion.

In a way, that is the tragedy - there *are* a few sociopaths in their ranks (IDS!) but I am capable of believing that even Cameron meant well, once.

But for the most part, it isn't that they are evil - but that they are wrong. Which is more tricky to deal with, tbh......

And to make it worse, if they've been brought up to vote Tory (as I was for example) you suddenly have to question not just your beliefs but those of your parents who made you what you are to a large degree. And if you've actually got and voted Tory, you basically have to admit that you've made a mistake. That's not easy for most people to do, even when faced with overwhelming evidence that the people they voted for a few years ago are genuinely malign people who, ironically, have no interest whatsoever in Tory voters, except to keep them exercising their bad habit.

I can't remember where I read it, but there was research saying die hard Conservative's brains are wired differently and they were born that way. Seeing the light as you did, proves the point? I have a thumping headache so apologise for not being more fluent.

[letsskiptotheleft]

Deeply unpleasant perfect description of the commentator - thank you for the updated moniker.

If I could work out how to cut'n'paste the exchange, I'd post it here. It has got worse.......

Now I have my email back, I've sent a letter to the G to express the view that this individual is the latest in a long line of nasty new posters who have the same MO as others who have been banned or who have disappeared. I suspect Rusty and Chickie are under new management, as it were, because neither have posted for a few weeks.

Show and I were nattering about this earlier. When I joined a few years ago, you could wander into any thread and find intelligent discussions - I've learned a lot from many people on CIF. Not any more - they are being drowned out by the trolls; there is a lot of deliberate baiting going on, very like what TGS got from Rusty not so long ago.
It's not just unpleasant, it is turning the G comments sections into the worst sort of tabloid-style crapola that exists elsewhere.
It's bad enough that the hacks and editorial staff are so bloody tedious these days, but many of the really good commentators seem to be disappearing, and the ones who soldier on are spending most of their time rebutting trolls and their nonsense.

I have been targeted by a CIF poster in the past - Cinimon/Flower3/other/same person - who usually stayed on the cartoon threads until she got a bee in her bonnet about me. She followed me all over CIF wherever I went, making weird passive-aggressive comments to wind me up, then accusing me of bullying when I responded. Martin Rowson told her off on numerous occasions.
She had a sidekick called FriendOfTheLeft (who was nothing of the kind) and they took to following me and LightaCandle onTwitter doing the same sort of stuff. Very weird. Then they disappeared after Rowson got really exasperated with them.

What was once a great newspaper, the old Manchester Guardian, a paper which championed the cause of the radicals whose protests led to the Peterloo Massacre, should be ashamed of itself. It's rapidly turning into something I don't want to have much to do with.
I was a staunch supporter of the G for decades - and although it still has its moments and remains a bit better than the rest, its decline is a very sad thing to witness.

CiF's a shithole, and it's down to the people at the Graun who've let it get that way. Any politeness went by the board a long time ago, as did any sense of rational moderation. The result? An infestation of permatrolls who rarely get modded for any reason and if banned, simply return again and again. So the quality of the posting drops like a stone because (a) the trolls are not just tedious and monomaniac, they're also largely thick and (b) decent posters - as evidenced here - give it up as a bad job as the islands of intelligent comment become ever smaller in size. Who'd want to subject themselves to that regularly?

Far better to quote the URL of an article you've found interesting and post it here for a discussion that will probably have FTNers popping up new sites and references on the same subject. End result? An interesting site with high quality input that makes CiF look like what it is: a massive dirty protest against reason and intellect.

It is a shitehole, perfect example in the article I linked, councils would be fine if Labour didn't implement Westminster cuts, if only it were that simple.

[ohsocynical]

Haven't seen much, or maybe anything, from HindleA over the past couple of days. Hope things are OK. Missing those fine links he posts.

I'm about,usually at odd hours.Very rarely for me,thankfully I've not been too well (fact not attempt to attract sympathy)and concentration/energy levels somewhat reduced.

Hope you feel better soon....

[rebeccariots2]

Haven't seen much, or maybe anything, from HindleA over the past couple of days. Hope things are OK. Missing those fine links he posts.

I'm about,usually at odd hours.Very rarely for me,thankfully I've not been too well (fact not attempt to attract sympathy)and concentration/energy levels somewhat reduced.

Thank you for popping in to reassure me. As long as you are OK - hope whatever is making you feel less than chipper goes away soon.

[letsskiptotheleft]

Shocking news this, Matthew Hancock is a shit MP apparently, I'd never have guessed.

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2014/11/c ... t-hancock/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rebeccariots2]

Political Scrapbook ‏@PSbook 7m7 minutes ago
NEW → Tories' 'Minister for Portsmouth' @matthancockmp facing local rebellion. Review urged over 'poor performance' http://politicalscrapbook.net/2014/11/c ... t-hancock/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

Sounds like PF is in the thick of it yet again.

What has Portsmouth done to be lumbered with not just one but two Hancocks?

[rebeccariots2]

Shocking news this, Matthew Hancock is a shit MP apparently, I'd never have guessed.

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2014/11/c ... t-hancock/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Snap letsskip. Yes - who'd have ever guessed?

[AngryAsWell]

With a smile to our greens here, I have to say that if outright lies are the way they are looking to gain seats its not going to work.
I do hope our honest greens will be more than a little ashamed of this. Twice now I've asked - very nicely - for a link to Kate Green saying she will cut 8billion (yes billion) from disabled. Needless to say, as yet, I've had no reply. If such a link exists and anyone can provide it I'd be grateful and will apologise for doubting the greens.

Rebecca Devitt ‏@CarbonisedPleb · 22m22 minutes ago
@lizzjones18 Announed by @KateGreenMP planned £8bn cut to disability welfare despite rights/benefits+services cut to the bone by Coalition

I know she's Green from other posts on her page.

Surely Kate Green is the MP that's written to Mark Harper demanding answers re the Tory proposals to cut ESA / disability benefits?

She is, she's the Shadow for Disability.
Think I've found the article and its totally, utterly a misrepresentation to say "cuts"
Unless there is something wrong with my comprehension?

http://www.kategreen.org/index.php/west ... y-benefits" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rebeccariots2]

With a smile to our greens here, I have to say that if outright lies are the way they are looking to gain seats its not going to work.
I do hope our honest greens will be more than a little ashamed of this. Twice now I've asked - very nicely - for a link to Kate Green saying she will cut 8billion (yes billion) from disabled. Needless to say, as yet, I've had no reply. If such a link exists and anyone can provide it I'd be grateful and will apologise for doubting the greens.

Rebecca Devitt ‏@CarbonisedPleb · 22m22 minutes ago
@lizzjones18 Announed by @KateGreenMP planned £8bn cut to disability welfare despite rights/benefits+services cut to the bone by Coalition

I know she's Green from other posts on her page.

Surely Kate Green is the MP that's written to Mark Harper demanding answers re the Tory proposals to cut ESA / disability benefits?

She is, she's the Shadow for Disability.
Think I've found the article and its totally, utterly a misrepresentation to say "cuts"
Unless there is something wrong with my comprehension?

http://www.kategreen.org/index.php/west ... y-benefits" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes - having read it, I agree with you - it's a misrepresentation by a mile. The £8bn is the current overspend because of the complete failure of the various 'programmes' - which she wants to avoid repeating by putting better policies and programmes in place which do actually support people who can get back into work to get back into work - and those that can't don't have to go through endless assessments and appeals, all of which cost more money. She's not talking cuts.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

This is an interesting read for all this interested in St Julie of Stafford

http://www.worldmedicaltimes.org/cure-t ... ty-or-not/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cure-the-nhs-ctnhs-is-it-a-charity-or-not