Friday 14th November 2014

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Post removed in light of PK1's post below.

Why on earth did you do that ? Genuinely mystified

Because I was hesitant to post on the subject anyway, your post convinced me that I should have followed my instinct.

[pk1]

Because I was hesitant to post on the subject anyway, your post convinced me that I should have followed my instinct.

Ach you daft thing ! The good thing about this place is that we can post our opinions without fear of what others might think & (hopefully) without doing damage to the friendships & camaraderie built up over a long period of time.

Here, have a hug !

[adam]

Sorry it's my fault for raising it PK. Sounds like you know much more about it than me.

Actually on reflection I'm glad you did, for it gave me the opportunity to set out my thoughts in a more coherent manner than what has been swirling round in my head these last few weeks, so thank you !

Is he appealing again? He sought leave to appeal the conviction and sentence and they were both refused, and he appealed those refusals and they were both refused. The Court of Appeal said that the jury were correctly directed on all aspects of the law and that there was no arguable basis that new evidence he wanted to introduce at that time would make a difference to the court's decision. The full judgement of the court of appeal is here.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Apparently "construction rebounded less strongly than expected" in September, according to Reuters.

I do hate these headlines. Why can't they just say "After a dreadful August there was a modest recovery in the construction sector in September"?

[pk1]

Sorry it's my fault for raising it PK. Sounds like you know much more about it than me.

Actually on reflection I'm glad you did, for it gave me the opportunity to set out my thoughts in a more coherent manner than what has been swirling round in my head these last few weeks, so thank you !

Is he appealing again? He sought leave to appeal the conviction and sentence and they were both refused, and he appealed those refusals and they were both refused. The Court of Appeal said that the jury were correctly directed on all aspects of the law and that there was no arguable basis that new evidence he wanted to introduce at that time would make a difference to the court's decision. The full judgement of the court of appeal is here.

They're appealing on the basis that some evidence was not considered at the trial.

A media release:

It is still difficult to comprehend how he was convicted in a case where no individual ever accused him of rape and where a co-defendant who stood trial at the same time and who faced an almost identical prosecution case was acquitted.

Many thousands of people have offered support to Ched through this website and have also expressed their growing concerns about this conviction as more of the facts have become known.

Barrister David Emanuel of Garden Court Chambers, London, in conjunction with Shaun Draycott, senior partner with Draycott Browne Solicitors, has completed a thorough review of the evidence and all aspects of the way the case proceeded in the Crown Court. In addition further investigations have been conducted by Liberton Investigations, an independent investigations company, into a number of previously unexplored areas of the evidence.

As a result, an application was today submitted to the Criminal Cases Review Commission raising serious concerns about the safety of this conviction. The application submits that the case should be sent back to the Court of Appeal on the basis that there is a real possibility that the conviction would be quashed.

also from the Evans site:

On 15 July 2014 Ched’s new legal team David Emanuel of Garden Court Chambers London and Shaun Draycott submitted an application to the Criminal Cases Review Commission which is the first step to a second appeal. They are confident in their submission.

We believe that due to Ched’s profession, information that was not used by his original defence and other information that has been gathered since his conviction will in time overturn a wrongful conviction.

The CCRC are fast-tracking the case

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29679563" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A CCRC spokesman told the Observer it had expected a "significant wait" to the inquiry beginning, but there had been a request by the footballer's lawyers to prioritise the case.

He said after the request was made, "in line with our published policy on prioritisation, and in relation to the facts of the case and the issues raised in Mr Evans's application to us... we now expect our substantive investigation to begin within the next few weeks".

The spokesman added: "The decision to prioritise the case simply brings forward the starting point of the investigations to decide whether or not there may be grounds for us to refer the case to the Court of Appeal.

"It does not in any way represent a judgment by the commission as to the merits of the case or its chances of being referred."

[AnatolyKasparov]

The SNP attacked the Tories and used the threat of Tory governments at Westminster to bolster the Yes vote - so why are they so hell bent on helping a Tory government win next year ?
Is smashing Labour more important to them than the effect on the lives of UK people under a Tory government ?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... l-election" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, most of the "45ers" care only about destroying Labour and don't give two hoots if that keeps the Tories in power across the UK.

(of course, the self-justifying line there is that Labour are just "red Tories" anyway)

[adam]

I'd add that whilst it's easy for me to say this because it doesn't affect me, and whilst there is a serious issue about equity when you generalise out from a specific case, I think, given the findings of the jury and the court of appeal, that it would be a very bad thing for public policy if the law on sexual assault moved so that it became much easier for somebody accused of rape to argue that the complainant consented. This might end up being terribly unfair to Ched Evans, but if he's successful in appeal I think it will make it much much harder to secure rape and sexual assault convictions, and it's already very difficult.

This story won't run as anything other than 'a drunken slur means yes' and I think this will be a bad thing.

Edited to add - written before I'd seen your reply PK

[pk1]

Populus VI:

Lab 35 (-1)
Con 33 (-1)
LD 9 (+1)
UKIP 13 (=)
Oth 9 (=)

[AnatolyKasparov]

Two point Labour lead with Populus AGAIN

Strange how they have morphed from one of the most unpredictable polling companies to almost boringly consistent. Sampling problems sorted out?

[Eric_WLothian]

The SNP attacked the Tories and used the threat of Tory governments at Westminster to bolster the Yes vote - so why are they so hell bent on helping a Tory government win next year ?
Is smashing Labour more important to them than the effect on the lives of UK people under a Tory government ?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... l-election" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Morning all.
I read the Scotsman most days,for a little light relief.Great stories like 'sheep dog stolen from farm'.
The yessers/snps are still rabidly posting and expecting another referendum in a year or so,and they hate Labour.Nothing would please them more than Labour being destroyed in Scotland and losing in 2015.
That they loathe 'skeletor' aka Jim Murphy,and want one of the other candidates to become leader of SLP makes me sure that Murphy is indeed the right man for the job.
I do feel so sorry for the majority of Scots who voted no,there is no political respect for them from the SG.
edited to add,what a foul,wet,gloomy day.Which I am going to spend baking christmas cakes and filling the house with the most gorgeous smell of all.

I think the SNP response to the referendum result confirms what many thought - that they are a one-policy party. The Scottish Parliament (it's not the Scottish Government) was set up with the intention that it would work through cross-party committees and that no single party would have overall control. (The collapse of the LibDems was unforeseen in the 1990s)!
Unfortunately the slim majority of the SNP has allowed them to take over the Presiding Officer and many of the committees.
I don't see Scotland as being a 'natural' Labour stronghold. In 1955 there were 36 Scottish Tory MPs, against 34 Labour. Up until 1983, there were generally around 20 Tories. They rolled on with about 10 seats until 1997. With this in mind, I think the choice of a right-leaning Labour leader in Scotland may be a good thing for the party and the country - different enough to reflect Scotland's political leanings but not so different that it would further sour relations between Scotland and the UK.

The SNP's political track record is (imo) abysmal. Let's not forget that they supported the Tories in the 1979 vote of no confidence in Jim Callaghan's government. They did not support devolution and did not join the Constitutional Convention in the 1990s. Now they do not appear to accept the result of the referendum.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Why is this politics news?

BBC Politics ‏@BBCPolitics 3m3 minutes ago
A German airline is ending its flights between Cardiff and Dusseldorf. http://bbc.in/1xVIEDQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I haven't read it.

[adam]

@ PK in reply (and I'm not entirely sure what I think about all of this, and I am very aware of the risk of a great injustice being done, but I'm also wary of even moderately famous people finding a way to get very quick access to the appeal's process especially when they've already been the appeals block twice).

1.The CA judgement deals with the point about one defendent being acquitted and the other convicted.

Given that direction, it was open to the jury to convict both defendants, to acquit both defendants, or to convict one and not the other defendant. That was the point of a joint trial in which separate verdicts were to be returned. It was open to the jury to consider, as it seems to us, that even if the complainant did not, in fact, consent to sexual intercourse with either of the two men, that in the light of his part in what happened -- the meeting in the street and so on -- McDonald may reasonably have believed that the complainant had consented to sexual activity with him, and at the same time concluded that the applicant knew perfectly well that she had not consented to sexual activity with him (the applicant). The circumstances in which each of the two men came to be involved in the sexual activity was quite different; so indeed were the circumstances in which they left her. These seem to us to be matters entirely open to the jury. There is no inconsistency.

2. When he says that some lawyers have completed a thorough review of the evidence and process, he means that his lawyers acting on his instructions have done this. He could have made a similar statement whilst awaiting his initial appeal to a single judge and the subsequent renewal to a full Court of Appeal bench. I think the point you've made about the impossiblity of showing remorse whilst denying the conviction and pursuing an appeal is a very good point, but this stuff about 'reviews' is news management, it just means he's appealing again.

3. He says 'It is still difficult to comprehend how he was convicted in a case where no individual ever accused him of rape' - I don't understand that. The CA judgement says that the woman went to the police the following morning. She may not have personally asked specifically for an investigation "..because I have been raped" but given what seems to have happened this seems like a bit of a disengenuous statement.

4. Is there new evidence? The CA judgement talks about a range of evidence that it was satisfied was enough to allow a jury to find that she was incapable of consent, and there are issues about the good administration of justice in allowing to appellants to produce what is really 'more' evidence which might in retrospect be 'better' evidence but isn't necessarily 'new' evidence.

[Eric_WLothian]

The SNP attacked the Tories and used the threat of Tory governments at Westminster to bolster the Yes vote - so why are they so hell bent on helping a Tory government win next year ?
Is smashing Labour more important to them than the effect on the lives of UK people under a Tory government ?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... l-election" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, most of the "45ers" care only about destroying Labour and don't give two hoots if that keeps the Tories in power across the UK.

(of course, the self-justifying line there is that Labour are just "red Tories" anyway)

The problem is that the 'yes' supporters don't seem to understand that two opposing parties (Labour and Tory) can agree on just one issue (a continuing UK) without compromising their stances on other topics.

[frightful_oik]

Decent piece in the Indy:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 59688.html

[LadyCentauria]

On a totally different note, a warning to academics and budding writers alike:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yep, they could have checked how to spell crappie and its plural
(Fish-related punning is a long-standing tradition amongst my family and friends. We love crappies.)

[adam]

I'd add that whilst it's easy for me to say this because it doesn't affect me, and whilst there is a serious issue about equity when you generalise out from a specific case, I think, given the findings of the jury and the court of appeal, that it would be a very bad thing for public policy if the law on sexual assault moved so that it became much easier for somebody accused of rape to argue that the complainant consented. This might end up being terribly unfair to Ched Evans, but if he's successful in appeal I think it will make it much much harder to secure rape and sexual assault convictions, and it's already very difficult.

This story won't run as anything other than 'a drunken slur means yes' and I think this will be a bad thing.

Edited to add - written before I'd seen your reply PK

The issue here would be if this set a precedent that was relevant to future cases, and that would have to be quite a specific case. There was already another individual involved in this case who made the same argument and was acquitted, so I don't see that this would necessarily have a bearing on all future cases. Moreover, the judge indicated at sentencing that he was satisfied that the complainant lacked the capacity to consent, yet the second defendant was acquitted by the jury, so if anything, that issue has already been raised.

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-che ... dwyn-evans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You have to judge each case solely on whether or not the evidence passes the test of reasonable doubt. No other factors should be considered.

A judgement in the Court of Appeal is a precedent judgement - it becomes the law as part of the established Case Law. It could set a precedent about how to direct a jury about where the complainant lies on a spectrum the CA judgement discussed, about being disinhibited (but still unquestionably able to exercise informed judgement and give informed consent) or being without the capacity to exercise consent, and it will set a precedent about how to direct a jury on the question of how a defendant should be expected to exercise his/her judgement about the other person's judgement (and there is a question that doesn't seem to have been raised here, the issue of how competent the men were to draw a reasonable conclusion about the woman's capacity to consent. All the CA judgement says is 'They, too, visited licences premises'. I'm not suggesting it should have been an issue here but it's an interesting additional point about the whole 'consent' issue).

(edited to add - I'm thinking around in circles about this and I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit although the point I made above - a wariness about continued appeals - is a real point).

[LadyCentauria]

BBC carrying breaking news that the Trinity Mirror group of newspapers are to close 7 titles in the south of England including, I think, 2 in Berkshire and 1 in West London.
Edit to say I added the following...


Ah,

The Reading Post, sister title GetReading and the Wokingham and Bracknell Times are to cease print publicaton along with the Surrey Herald, Surrey Times, Woking Informer and Harrow Observer.

Source: http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/2014/ ... rror-cuts/

[ephemerid]

Don't know if we've already done this and it's listed as "sport" rather than "politics" most places, but I'm full of admiration for Jessica Ennis on doing what she feels is right here

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 59764.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

olympic-champion-jessica-ennishill-threatens-to-remove-her-name-from-sheffield-united-stand-if-ched-evans-is-resigned

Good on her. However, without wanting to offend anyone or minimise the gravity of the crime he committed I'm concerned that whilst Ched Evans is rightly being pressured, a footballer called Lee Hughes killed someone whilst drunk driving about 10 years ago, yet he came out of prison & resumed his career - I think he's still playing.

I am finding this issue very difficult.

(Disclaimer - one of my closest friends was raped by a man who broke into her flat; he was the first rapist to get life in this country, which is perhaps a measure of what he did to her and his many other victims. So obviously this is an emotive subject for me.)

Ched Evans and Clayton McDonald were both accused of rape. That allegation was based on their admission that they had engaged in sexual intercourse with the young lady involved - who cannot recall anything of what happened; there was no complaint of rape, no forensic evidence of rape, and no obvious injury to support non-consent. Ched Evans was convicted, his co-accused was acquitted.

I didn't see the evidence, nor was I present at the trial. I have no idea whether he is guilty of rape or not. However, he has protested his innocence throughout, his legal team have been fighting to clear his name since the conviction; and there remain proceedings in the case which may yet change the current situation.

Even if Ched Evans is guilty - and I am undecided on that, given the things I have read - he has served his time. He is not working in a profession where a sexual offender registration precludes him from working.
I appreciate that he is a role model being a professional sportsman - but is it right to prevent him from doing his job when there are still legal argument going on and it is possible that his conviction was wrong?
There are other footballers who have behaved with similar disregard for others; there are some who have killed and injured people due to dangerous or drunk driving. They have not faced similar opprobrium.

Rape is a revolting crime. Those guilty of it deserve imprisonment, and in some cases for longer sentences than Ched Evans received.
But - if there is any doubt, and I think there is, that he committed rape, I see no reason why he can't do his job.
If he was a plumber, there'd be no problems. If he was a doctor, there might be.
I think his employers should not be castigated for giving this young man a chance to return to his career while the investigations into his conviction continue - and if he is shown to be guilty as charged after that, perhaps they can have a rethink.
Meanwhile, I really think he should be left alone.

[Lonewolfie]

Breaking...

http://content.met.police.uk/News/Opera ... 7246745756

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30052726

I don't know what to say.

[LadyCentauria]

The European Space Agency are hosting a Google Hangout at 1pm (GMT) and you can watch it here (and share the player with anyone you think will be interested) or directly on ESA's Google+ page and Youtube channel:
[youtube]7Xm6y0LzlLo[/youtube]

Update on the Rosetta mission, including status of the Philae lander.

Enjoy!

(This is the link to their Google+ Event page: https://plus.google.com/u/0/events/c78o ... coltjnt424 )

Edit: this event is now live, just click play!

[rearofthestore]

Morning all. Tories lead by 1 point on Yougov:

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 13th November -

Con 33%, (+1)
Lab 32%, (-3)
LD 8%, (+1)
UKIP 15%; (no change)

APP -22 (+3)

Good Afternoon
I know it is not only reasonable but proper to weight results but Mike Smithson is questioning this particular poll as the raw data had Labour 4% ahead and the basis of weighting seems to be an exceptional bias to increase number of Sun readers.

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 16m16 minutes ago
The "value" of Sun/Star readers was scaled up to more than double in today's YouGov poll. See

[pk1]

Don't know if we've already done this and it's listed as "sport" rather than "politics" most places, but I'm full of admiration for Jessica Ennis on doing what she feels is right here

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 59764.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

olympic-champion-jessica-ennishill-threatens-to-remove-her-name-from-sheffield-united-stand-if-ched-evans-is-resigned

Good on her. However, without wanting to offend anyone or minimise the gravity of the crime he committed I'm concerned that whilst Ched Evans is rightly being pressured, a footballer called Lee Hughes killed someone whilst drunk driving about 10 years ago, yet he came out of prison & resumed his career - I think he's still playing.

I am finding this issue very difficult.

(Disclaimer - one of my closest friends was raped by a man who broke into her flat; he was the first rapist to get life in this country, which is perhaps a measure of what he did to her and his many other victims. So obviously this is an emotive subject for me.)

Ched Evans and Clayton McDonald were both accused of rape. That allegation was based on their admission that they had engaged in sexual intercourse with the young lady involved - who cannot recall anything of what happened; there was no complaint of rape, no forensic evidence of rape, and no obvious injury to support non-consent. Ched Evans was convicted, his co-accused was acquitted.

I didn't see the evidence, nor was I present at the trial. I have no idea whether he is guilty of rape or not. However, he has protested his innocence throughout, his legal team have been fighting to clear his name since the conviction; and there remain proceedings in the case which may yet change the current situation.

Even if Ched Evans is guilty - and I am undecided on that, given the things I have read - he has served his time. He is not working in a profession where a sexual offender registration precludes him from working.
I appreciate that he is a role model being a professional sportsman - but is it right to prevent him from doing his job when there are still legal argument going on and it is possible that his conviction was wrong?
There are other footballers who have behaved with similar disregard for others; there are some who have killed and injured people due to dangerous or drunk driving. They have not faced similar opprobrium.

Rape is a revolting crime. Those guilty of it deserve imprisonment, and in some cases for longer sentences than Ched Evans received.
But - if there is any doubt, and I think there is, that he committed rape, I see no reason why he can't do his job.
If he was a plumber, there'd be no problems. If he was a doctor, there might be.
I think his employers should not be castigated for giving this young man a chance to return to his career while the investigations into his conviction continue - and if he is shown to be guilty as charged after that, perhaps they can have a rethink.
Meanwhile, I really think he should be left alone.

I agree with your post Ephe. Where you highlight that the allegation was based on their admission is very powerful & I think there are huge questions around the consent issue.

If she was deemed to have given consent to McDonald, why was she then deemed to have been too intoxicated to consent to Evans ?
If she was so drunk as to have not known what she was doing, why was she presumed to have consented to McDonald but not to Evans ?
If she was so drunk that she had absolutely no recollection whatsoever, how did her blood alcohol levels fall to zero within 7 hours ?

So many questions, so few answers - yet.

I hope when all this is finally over both the victim & Evans can retrieve whatever remains of their lives & move on but if Evans is cleared I hope all those calling for his head will have the decency to admit they should not have.

[ohsocynical]

BBC carrying breaking news that the Trinity Mirror group of newspapers are to close 7 titles in the south of England including, I think, 2 in Berkshire and 1 in West London.
Edit to say I added the following...


Ah,

The Reading Post, sister title GetReading and the Wokingham and Bracknell Times are to cease print publicaton along with the Surrey Herald, Surrey Times, Woking Informer and Harrow Observer.

Source: http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/2014/ ... rror-cuts/

That'll mean Bracknell won't have a print newspaper at all...It's been barely covered by the Evening Post because it's on the outskirts of the area they covered. They used to deliver the free GetReading, but then only left it in supermarkets and there were never any there when you wanted a copy to check for things like jumble sales.
The Bracknell Times has become so slim it's not worth buying, and they haven't done anything decent with their online presence, which I reckon has been an own goal.

I would imagine the Berkshire Chronicle will pick up the slack. Good for them.

[rebeccariots2]

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 32m 32 minutes ago
The "value" of Sun/Star readers was scaled up to more than double in today's YouGov poll. See

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 27m 27 minutes ago
@SimonLock_ Scaling up Sun/Star readers like on level as in today's YouGov increases margin of error

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 26m 26 minutes ago
@yorkierosie Given the collapse in newspaper readership weighting on this basis has become outdated.

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 16m 16 minutes ago
@F03148046 But why the need to use newspaper readership at all when they've got the demographic & party ID data?

Interesting series of tweets there. (The see at the end of the 1st tweet is ref to a linked chart.)

Editing to add: Sorry rearofthe store, I hadn't seen your post when I submitted mine. Great minds and all that ...

[WelshIan]

Why is this politics news?

BBC Politics ‏@BBCPolitics 3m3 minutes ago
A German airline is ending its flights between Cardiff and Dusseldorf. http://bbc.in/1xVIEDQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I haven't read it.

The airport is owned by the Welsh Government, it was bought for £52m in March 2013:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21952079" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ohsocynical]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30052726

'Possible homicide' examined in historical abuse inquiry
Scotland Yard

Dear God. How much has been hidden over the years. All those poor children.

[ephemerid]

I agree with your post Ephe. Where you highlight that the allegation was based on their admission is very powerful & I think there are huge questions around the consent issue.

If she was deemed to have given consent to McDonald, why was she then deemed to have been too intoxicated to consent to Evans ?
If she was so drunk as to have not known what she was doing, why was she presumed to have consented to McDonald but not to Evans ?
If she was so drunk that she had absolutely no recollection whatsoever, how did her blood alcohol levels fall to zero within 7 hours ?

So many questions, so few answers - yet.

I hope when all this is finally over both the victim & Evans can retrieve whatever remains of their lives & move on but if Evans is cleared I hope all those calling for his head will have the decency to admit they should not have.

Thank you, PK1.

As I said, I find it all very difficult.

I would have thought that respected sports celebrities like Ennis would have the sense to consider what they do with care before they make decisions like this - if it eventually turns out that Evans is found to have been a victim of a miscarriage of justice, she and others will have made a stand that they may regret.
He may well be guilty as charged; but despite his conviction, we don't actually have the certainty that he is. If he is, then Ennis would be in a position to do what she's doing with integrity, whether people agree with her or not. I just think there has been a lot of knee-jerking going on which is premature.

I am no apologist for rapists. But it seems to me that there is an atmosphere around this case which smacks to me of making an example of someone in the public eye. By his own admission, his behaviour left a great deal to be desired; there is a whole other argument to be had about young sportsmen (especially footballers) and violent behaviour and/or sexual shenanigans.

I hope that the legal arguments going on now will sort this issue out once and for all. Evans will be either vindicated or forced to accept that he is guilty in the eyes of the law, and then decisions about his future can be made with full knowledge. In the meantime, it would be best if those insisting on occupying their moral high ground were to wait and see before they whip up any more outrage.

[adam]

I agree with your post Ephe. Where you highlight that the allegation was based on their admission is very powerful & I think there are huge questions around the consent issue.

If she was deemed to have given consent to McDonald, why was she then deemed to have been too intoxicated to consent to Evans ?
If she was so drunk as to have not known what she was doing, why was she presumed to have consented to McDonald but not to Evans ?
If she was so drunk that she had absolutely no recollection whatsoever, how did her blood alcohol levels fall to zero within 7 hours ?

So many questions, so few answers - yet.

I hope when all this is finally over both the victim & Evans can retrieve whatever remains of their lives & move on but if Evans is cleared I hope all those calling for his head will have the decency to admit they should not have.

I'm not calling for his head - if he can find one of his friends having sex and ask to join in, whilst two of his friends film them from outside the window, then to be honest I'm afraid I'm not very interested in him at all - but I'm interested in the administration of justice in all of this.

If she was deemed to have given consent to McDonald, why was she then deemed to have been too intoxicated to consent to Evans ?
If she was so drunk as to have not known what she was doing, why was she presumed to have consented to McDonald but not to Evans ?

According to the CA judgement, because …

It was open to the jury to consider, as it seems to us, that even if the complainant did not, in fact, consent to sexual intercourse with either of the two men, that in the light of his part in what happened -- the meeting in the street and so on -- McDonald may reasonably have believed that the complainant had consented to sexual activity with him, and at the same time concluded that the applicant knew perfectly well that she had not consented to sexual activity with him (the applicant). The circumstances in which each of the two men came to be involved in the sexual activity was quite different; so indeed were the circumstances in which they left her. These seem to us to be matters entirely open to the jury. There is no inconsistency.

If she was so drunk that she had absolutely no recollection whatsoever, how did her blood alcohol levels fall to zero within 7 hours ?

No idea, but the court of appeal appears to have addressed it and didn't consider it to be a problem. If it was challenged at the time of the original proceedings it's not clear from the CA judgement, and there is nothing in the CA judgement to suggest it was raised on appeal - if it had been advanced as an argument as to why she could not have been incapable of consent then the judgement would have said so. If it was advanced in more detail on appeal and the court didn't deal with it then Evans will probably win his appeal. It appears to be the case that medical evidence accepted that the lack of biomedical evidence of blood alcohol wasn't a problem for the conviction. Again, from the judgement...

She was examined by a doctor and various samples were taken. As a result of an examination of the samples, at that stage, notwithstanding the direct evidence that she had had a good deal to drink the evening before, no alcohol was detected. That may have been the consequence of its elimination over the course of time. Expert evidence sought to reconstruct the amount of alcohol she had consumed at an earlier stage.

We appear to live in a time where people don't report rape allegations, where rape is a very difficult crime to prosecute and where there is a significant section of the popular press and popular culture that encourages the the public perception of the [edited to add this next word] 'real' offence as being stuck in the idea of a masked man in a dark alley and that no doesn't necessarily mean no. I feel very wary of what the effects of a high profile case where drunk consent is good enough for consent will be on the public perception of rape allegations and on whether fewer and fewer women will come forward after being sexually assaulted. I feel very wary of people in the public eye getting accelerated access to further and further appeals - he has already been refused leave to appeal conviction and sentence by both a single judge of the Court of Appeal and subsequently, on representation, by a full three Judge panel of the Court of Appeal, who looked at the trial and didn't find significant fault with it.

This might all be very unfair on Ched Evans but I don't really know how to square that circle. If the review body do refer the matter back to the Court of Appeal and the court overturn the conviction (although given the case was described by the CA as 'a classic case for decision by Jury' I suspect the most that would happen would be that it would be sent back to the crown court for retrial) then of course if he's eventually acquitted then the matter is dealt with and he gets back to his life as best he can. If the review body don't refer it back, or the appellate court turn down an appeal, or the crown court convict him again, then if he can address his culpability, and he's served his time, you would think he can then get back to his life as best he can. Lee Hughes, convicted of causing death by dangerous driving but subsequently returning to professional football, was mentioned above - he met with the family of the man who died and apologised and he made a public apology - story here.

[Eric_WLothian]

The airport is owned by the Welsh Government, it was bought for £52m in March 2013:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21952079" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They were robbed. The Scottish Government bought Prestwick Airport for £1.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-g ... t-25055531

There's still time to catch the last flight from Prestwick - 17:10 to Girona. Today's other departure (Lanzarote) was at 06:50. (Both Ryanair).

[pk1]

@Adam

I wasn't accusing you of calling for his head but you cannot deny that others have been.

On the point about blood alcohol levels - we know from the number of successful police prosecutions on 'morning after drivers' that blood alcohol levels take many hours to fall back to being within the legal limit. To fall to zero from being 2.5 times over the motoring legal limit within 7.5 hours would imply an excessively high metabolism indeed.

I do not know if he raped her but I do know there are many unanswered questions - questions I hope that the legal process will answer in due course.

If he did then he deserves all he gets.

If he didn't then he deserves to clear his name - after all, we do live in a country that recognises a miscarriage of justice is no justice at all.

If he is guilty I don't think he should be treated differently to other rapist based purely on his profession.

I'm not sure I have anything further to add at this point.

[adam]

@Adam

I wasn't accusing you of calling for his head but you cannot deny that others have been.

I do not know if he raped her but I do know there are many unanswered questions - questions I hope that the legal process will answer in due course.

If he did then he deserves all he gets.

If he didn't then he deserves to clear his name - after all, we do live in a country that recognises a miscarriage of justice is no justice at all.

If he is guilty I don't think he should be treated differently to other rapist based purely on his profession.

I'm not sure I have anything further to add at this point.

I know you weren't accusing me of calling for his head, and you're absolutely right that others have been calling for his head. It's important to try to talk about difficult stuff, and this is difficult stuff.

As I said in my last post, if he's acquitted then he should be able to get back to his life, and if his conviction stands and he can accept culpability (because at some point you're stuck with a conviction, it just is, and you have to live with that) then he should be able to get back to his life.

I agree completely that he's entitled to clear his name, and I'm no fan of miscarriages of justice, and there are lots of examples of people who do need to take several runs at the court of appeal before the truth really emerges, but as a rule justice also needs finality, and I think it's worth remembering that he has already had his conviction and sentence considered by the court of appeal twice - once by a single judge, once by a full three member court.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 32m 32 minutes ago
The "value" of Sun/Star readers was scaled up to more than double in today's YouGov poll. See

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 27m 27 minutes ago
@SimonLock_ Scaling up Sun/Star readers like on level as in today's YouGov increases margin of error

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 26m 26 minutes ago
@yorkierosie Given the collapse in newspaper readership weighting on this basis has become outdated.

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 16m 16 minutes ago
@F03148046 But why the need to use newspaper readership at all when they've got the demographic & party ID data?

Interesting series of tweets there. (The see at the end of the 1st tweet is ref to a linked chart.)

Editing to add: Sorry rearofthe store, I hadn't seen your post when I submitted mine. Great minds and all that ...

Hmmm

I've been saying this for ages. This scale of scaling happens pretty much daily at Yougov and has done since the Sun introduced its pay wall.

[ohsocynical]

Ukip may become second largest political party in Welsh Assembly after 2016 election

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uk ... 60565.html

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Why is this politics news?

BBC Politics ‏@BBCPolitics 3m3 minutes ago
A German airline is ending its flights between Cardiff and Dusseldorf. http://bbc.in/1xVIEDQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I haven't read it.

The airport is owned by the Welsh Government, it was bought for £52m in March 2013:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21952079" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FFS

So, because a (Labour) Welsh government bought an airport BBC Politics feel the need to comment on every twist and turn there? Bet they wouldn't have reported acquisition of a new route.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Guardian politics ‏@GdnPolitics 2m2 minutes ago
Labour, neoliberalism and the referendum: 7 reasons why people are turning to the Green party http://gu.com/p/439ee/tw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ohsocynical]

NHS pays American ''profiteer'' £1.7million A YEAR for ONE cancer machine

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nh ... on-4626060

[pk1]

NHS pays American ''profiteer'' £1.7million A YEAR for ONE cancer machine

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nh ... on-4626060

To be fair though, it's not just any old cancer machine - it's an extremely sophisticated specialist machine that is quite similar to the one that was used in the treatment of my lung cancer at the Royal Marsden.

It is so specialised that there are only a few in the country but don't expect your average journalist to have the faintest idea about them.

[ohsocynical]

So. Shopped for my foodbank donation this morning. I can't even think about Christmas until I've delivered it. Very worried as money is much tighter this year than last. I came home with far less which made me wonder how many people are saying the same.

[ohsocynical]

NHS pays American ''profiteer'' £1.7million A YEAR for ONE cancer machine

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nh ... on-4626060

To be fair though, it's not just any old cancer machine - it's an extremely sophisticated specialist machine that is quite similar to the one that was used in the treatment of my lung cancer at the Royal Marsden.

It is so specialised that there are only a few in the country but don't expect your average journalist to have the faintest idea about them.

I think they said it's the only one in the country that treats NHS patients.

[pk1]

To be fair though, it's not just any old cancer machine - it's an extremely sophisticated specialist machine that is quite similar to the one that was used in the treatment of my lung cancer at the Royal Marsden.

It is so specialised that there are only a few in the country but don't expect your average journalist to have the faintest idea about them.

I think they said it's the only one in the country that treats NHS patients.

If they did, then that's simply not true.

Here's a list of locations:

http://www.cyberknife.com/cyberknifelocations.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Currently, CyberKnife treatment is only available to NHS patients who fulfill specific criteria set by NHSEngland.

[adam]

I recommend this for Rosetta fans - xkcd's take on the landing. (with apologise for obviousnessness, use the single arrow top right to click through from frame to frame)

[AngryAsWell]

Labour landslide in Camborne
Last night’s by election results in the Camborne Town Council by election:

Labour 298 (54%)
Conservatives 145 (26)
Mebyon Kernow 80 (14%)
Green 31 ( 6%)
http://malignedterritory.wordpress.com/ ... -camborne/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tinyclanger2]

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analy ... -fight-bac" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

This more or less made me cry, not because it is so nasty - though certainly that didn't help - but because it is just such terrible terrible "journalism". If a sixth former handed this in as an analysis - or even essay - surely it would go straight to "fail" ?

[StephenDolan]

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analy ... -fight-bac?

This more or less made me cry, not because it is so nasty - though certainly that didn't help - but because it is just such terrible terrible "journalism". If a sixth former handed this in as an analysis - or even essay - surely it would go straight to "fail" ?

But, but, he has LITERALLY no ideas

That's a shockingly poor OP.

[rebeccariots2]

Labour landslide in Camborne
Last night’s by election results in the Camborne Town Council by election:

Labour 298 (54%)
Conservatives 145 (26)
Mebyon Kernow 80 (14%)
Green 31 ( 6%)
http://malignedterritory.wordpress.com/ ... -camborne/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The seat contested was formerly held by a Mebyon Kernow councillor. The Labour Party now has 7 councillors out of 18 on the town council. There are 4 Conservatives. 3 Mebyon Kernow, 2 Greens and 2 Independents.

The other really interesting thing about this by election was the complete absence of Liberal Democrats. None on the town council, none (again) standing for election.

Lib Dems not even standing for election in the South West ...? Things must be bad.

[rebeccariots2]

Madeleine Moon ‏@MadeleineMoon 35m35 minutes ago
MOD's flagship reforms stalling as Army Reserve numbers increase by just 20 last year... http://www.madeleinemoonmp.com/speaking ... med_forces" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

I knew it was bad, but not that bad ...

Sheesh, that's on a par with IDS's claims of success for UC rollout and Paterson's for the badger cull.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analy ... -fight-bac?

This more or less made me cry, not because it is so nasty - though certainly that didn't help - but because it is just such terrible terrible "journalism". If a sixth former handed this in as an analysis - or even essay - surely it would go straight to "fail" ?

Meh. Failed actor trying to come across as bigshot PR expert; looks to be failing at that too! I took a quick look at his website; pompous, self-serving and utterly risible - I'm sure any potential clients will be bowled over by the completely anonymous 'testimonials'.

[Eric_WLothian]

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analy ... -fight-bac?

This more or less made me cry, not because it is so nasty - though certainly that didn't help - but because it is just such terrible terrible "journalism". If a sixth former handed this in as an analysis - or even essay - surely it would go straight to "fail" ?

Meh. Failed actor trying to come across as bigshot PR expert; looks to be failing at that too! I took a quick look at his website; pompous, self-serving and utterly risible - I'm sure any potential clients will be bowled over by the completely anonymous 'testimonials'.

From his website:

And what I do is simple: if you need to get a message out, I will help you to do so in the right way for you, getting the results you want.

...which makes me wonder whose message he's pushing on the politics website.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analy ... -fight-bac?

This more or less made me cry, not because it is so nasty - though certainly that didn't help - but because it is just such terrible terrible "journalism". If a sixth former handed this in as an analysis - or even essay - surely it would go straight to "fail" ?

Meh. Failed actor trying to come across as bigshot PR expert; looks to be failing at that too! I took a quick look at his website; pompous, self-serving and utterly risible - I'm sure any potential clients will be bowled over by the completely anonymous 'testimonials'.

From his website:

And what I do is simple: if you need to get a message out, I will help you to do so in the right way for you, getting the results you want.

...which makes me wonder whose message he's pushing on the politics website.

.....and are they due a refund?

[ephemerid]

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analy ... -fight-bac?

This more or less made me cry, not because it is so nasty - though certainly that didn't help - but because it is just such terrible terrible "journalism". If a sixth former handed this in as an analysis - or even essay - surely it would go straight to "fail" ?

I had a look at the website the article links to.

James, apparently, is touting for business to instruct people on communication.

Do you want to impress at a Select Committee Hearing? Want to knock 'em dead with your CEO communications?

James, is your go-to guy! (He's been to university and everything.....)