Friday 21st November 2014

[Tubby Isaacs]

Been trying to look into the Green Party Citizen's Income.

Seeing they're aghast at any restriction on EU migrants' credits or benefits, I take it that any EU citizen can come to Britain for a subsidized holiday, whenever they want?

Actually, you are misrepresenting Greens there. But that is normal for right wingers who can't actually get their heads around the more nuanced stance of the Greens.

Where's the detailed policy? Who qualifies?

Surely you're going to have to discriminate somehow, aren't you? Otherwise someone with savings from an EU country (more likely a rich one than a poor one), can basically come to Britain on an extended holiday and collect the income (which has to be enough to support a jobseeker) as a subsidy?



Me on the right, voting for Lutfur Rahman twice.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The citizens income would apply to Citizens - not immigrants who were working here temporarily. However at National level, I have raised the question previously and also asked about legal technicalities. Plus what help such migrants would receive if they were working here and then lost their job because I'm not entirely clear on that. If people are interested, then I'll report back once it has been clarified for me.

People are working here as permanently as makes no difference, but they aren't Citizens.

Can't they ever get it?

[refitman]

Actually, you are misrepresenting Greens there. But that is normal for right wingers who can't actually get their heads around the more nuanced stance of the Greens.

I don't think on any normal scale Tubby can be considered right wing.

It does raise an interesting point though, exactly how would such a scheme work within a Single European Market?

We'll have to agree to disagree on Tubby as I find quite a lot of his comments to the right. But then of course as a Green, I am very left! He also misrepresents the Green approach with regards migrants.

The citizens income would apply to Citizens - not immigrants who were working here temporarily. However at National level, I have raised the question previously and also asked about legal technicalities. Plus what help such migrants would receive if they were working here and then lost their job because I'm not entirely clear on that. If people are interested, then I'll report back once it has been clarified for me.

As much detail as you can get would be great Tizme.

[HindleA]

Wondering if The White Van Man Multiple Flag Owning Party will be in the television debates.I suppose I would be considered working class ,I have as much in common with them as I have with the Duke of Westminster,thats just a fact not a sneer.The real sneerers are those who think we are that easy to manipulate.

[Tizme1]

Been trying to look into the Green Party Citizen's Income.

Seeing they're aghast at any restriction on EU migrants' credits or benefits, I take it that any EU citizen can come to Britain for a subsidized holiday, whenever they want?

Actually, you are misrepresenting Greens there. But that is normal for right wingers who can't actually get their heads around the more nuanced stance of the Greens.

Where's the detailed policy? Who qualifies?

Surely you're going to have to discriminate somehow, aren't you? Otherwise someone with savings from an EU country (more likely a rich one than a poor one), can basically come to Britain on an extended holiday and collect the income (which has to be enough to support a jobseeker) as a subsidy?



Me on the right, voting for Lutfur Rahman twice.

Basically a 'Citizen' would be someone who is entitled to vote in a UK G/E. Which of course doesn't include people working here under freedom of movement within the EU laws. Also, as I said, you are misrepresenting the Green stance on the EU. You could of course read the manifesto which is available on line. In any case, you now seem to be saying you aren't sure what the policy entails which is fair enough. However your initial post that I responded to, was critical of the policy and somewhat snide imo.

Yes Tubby, I'm sorry but I do find many of your comments veer towards the right.

[Tubby Isaacs]

So, Tizme, you don't know that much about the proposals from the Green Party, but they're nuanced?

The whole way the argument is put is that the Citizens Income is simple.

[Tizme1]

I don't think on any normal scale Tubby can be considered right wing.

It does raise an interesting point though, exactly how would such a scheme work within a Single European Market?

We'll have to agree to disagree on Tubby as I find quite a lot of his comments to the right. But then of course as a Green, I am very left! He also misrepresents the Green approach with regards migrants.

The citizens income would apply to Citizens - not immigrants who were working here temporarily. However at National level, I have raised the question previously and also asked about legal technicalities. Plus what help such migrants would receive if they were working here and then lost their job because I'm not entirely clear on that. If people are interested, then I'll report back once it has been clarified for me.

As much detail as you can get would be great Tizme.

I'll be happy to report back once I've got the detail. As ever, the devil is in the detail!

[Tizme1]

So, Tizme, you don't know that much about the proposals from the Green Party, but they're nuanced?

The whole way the argument is put is that the Citizens Income is simple.

Tubby,

Most local supporters of any party don't know the whole detail of every policy. And that applies to council candidates and even prospective MPs too. I understand the nuanced proposals regarding our approach to Europe. The Citizens Income is a simple idea but there are a couple of technicalities that I'm not sure on so have asked for more detail.

Of course that isn't the way 'proper' politicians are meant to do it is it? If I was proper I'd spout off any guff that I thought might please who ever I was talking to. Instead I admit to being uncertain on a particular point and that makes me a target for your right wing sarcasm.

[rebeccariots2]

Two Michael Gove interviews in one evening - we are being spoiled (you can decide which meaning of spoiled applies here.)

His demeanour when answering Evan Davis was quite peculiar - seemed to be trying hard to affect a sibilant softness, with a little hint of a smile ever present when answering - especially when Evan tried a slightly hard edged question (only slightly mind). It wasn't nice. It was creepy.

His tack still seems to be what a wonderful leader Cameron is ... how wonderfully the Tories have done in R & S to not have Ukip 15 points ahead ... how the Tories are the best party for white man van and everyone in fact, no barriers put up to anyone at all .... and no their message isn't at all confused - they can appeal to those hankering for Ukipisms and the progressive wing who support gay marriage - all at the same time and with the same leader ....

Come to think of it ... perhaps he had taken a Valium beforehand.

[AngryAsWell]

Two Michael Gove interviews in one evening - we are being spoiled (you can decide which meaning of spoiled applies here.)

His demeanour when answering Evan Davis was quite peculiar - seemed to be trying hard to affect a sibilant softness, with a little hint of a smile ever present when answering - especially when Evan tried a slightly hard edged question (only slightly mind). It wasn't nice. It was creepy.

His tack still seems to be what a wonderful leader Cameron is ... how wonderfully the Tories have done in R & S to not have Ukip 15 points ahead ... how the Tories are the best party for white man van and everyone in fact, no barriers put up to anyone at all .... and no their message isn't at all confused - they can appeal to those hankering for Ukipisms and the progressive wing who support gay marriage - all at the same time and with the same leader ....

Come to think of it ... perhaps he had taken a Valium beforehand.

I must say I find Evan Davis the most cringe worthy interviewer ever.

[HindleA]

Neutral statement :

Asking about the pecularities of a policy/proposal doesn't make you right wing or sarcastic.

As I repeat Neutral statement.

[ErnstRemarx]

So, Tizme, you don't know that much about the proposals from the Green Party, but they're nuanced?

The whole way the argument is put is that the Citizens Income is simple.

Tubby,

Most local supporters of any party don't know the whole detail of every policy. And that applies to council candidates and even prospective MPs too. I understand the nuanced proposals regarding our approach to Europe. The Citizens Income is a simple idea but there are a couple of technicalities that I'm not sure on so have asked for more detail.

Of course that isn't the way 'proper' politicians are meant to do it is it? If I was proper I'd spout off any guff that I thought might please who ever I was talking to. Instead I admit to being uncertain on a particular point and that makes me a target for your right wing sarcasm.

Please keep it civil. That's both of you, by the way.

What's the costing and how will it be met? Two obvious questions I thought I'd ask. I like the idea, but unless it's fully thought through it will be shot to pieces as lefty nonsensical idealism. Having dealt in local finance (still talking about hundreds of millions) I'm acutely aware of the issues involved.

Would eligibility follow British citizenship? How would all of this square with EU law? Could it be reciprocal elsewhere? What of expatriate Britons? Would it be regionally variable? London weighting?

Just a few queries off the top of my head.

[StephenDolan]

I know I shouldn't have read it.

Labour ‘founded for working people’, Miliband tells white van man

http://gu.com/p/43gp7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" The focus on Labour meant that the prime minister escaped a major public postmortem in the wake of the loss of Rochester and Strood after pledging to throw the kitchen sink at the campaign. Reckless, who defected to Ukip in September, received 16,867 votes, 42.1% of the poll, in a seat listed as the 271st most likely to fall into Ukip hands. His Tory opponent, Kelly Tolhurst, took 13,947 votes (34.8%), a fall of 14.4 percentage points. Labour’s Naushabah Khan came third with 6,713 (16.8%, down 11.7 percentage points) and the Liberal Democrats won just 349 (0.9%, down 15.4 percentage points). The Lib Dems finished behind the Greens, who polled 1,692 (4.2%, up 2.7 percentage points). "

Yes, and who decided where the focus should be, could it have been, err, the media?

[TechnicalEphemera]

I know I shouldn't have read it.

Labour ‘founded for working people’, Miliband tells white van man

http://gu.com/p/43gp7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" The focus on Labour meant that the prime minister escaped a major public postmortem in the wake of the loss of Rochester and Strood after pledging to throw the kitchen sink at the campaign. Reckless, who defected to Ukip in September, received 16,867 votes, 42.1% of the poll, in a seat listed as the 271st most likely to fall into Ukip hands. His Tory opponent, Kelly Tolhurst, took 13,947 votes (34.8%), a fall of 14.4 percentage points. Labour’s Naushabah Khan came third with 6,713 (16.8%, down 11.7 percentage points) and the Liberal Democrats won just 349 (0.9%, down 15.4 percentage points). The Lib Dems finished behind the Greens, who polled 1,692 (4.2%, up 2.7 percentage points). "

Yes, and who decided where the focus should be, could it have been, err, the media?

Ignore the bollocks, Cameron is still the man with the problem.

A few of the usual Labour muppets are complaining that it was all supposed to be easy after R&S but that just shows they are fools.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I don't think I'm rightwing, and I'd be interested in more detail, Tizme.

[TechnicalEphemera]

On the Tubby left or right thing, he is comfortably to the left of me. Now I might look like a rabid right winger on this board, but out in the real world I am seen as very very left wing.

Which says something about the dangers of normalising attitudes in a very constrained environment like FTN. We are all way to the left of the centre ground of British politics.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I know I shouldn't have read it.

Labour ‘founded for working people’, Miliband tells white van man

http://gu.com/p/43gp7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" The focus on Labour meant that the prime minister escaped a major public postmortem in the wake of the loss of Rochester and Strood after pledging to throw the kitchen sink at the campaign. Reckless, who defected to Ukip in September, received 16,867 votes, 42.1% of the poll, in a seat listed as the 271st most likely to fall into Ukip hands. His Tory opponent, Kelly Tolhurst, took 13,947 votes (34.8%), a fall of 14.4 percentage points. Labour’s Naushabah Khan came third with 6,713 (16.8%, down 11.7 percentage points) and the Liberal Democrats won just 349 (0.9%, down 15.4 percentage points). The Lib Dems finished behind the Greens, who polled 1,692 (4.2%, up 2.7 percentage points). "

Yes, and who decided where the focus should be, could it have been, err, the media?

Yes, exactly.

With massive anti-Labour bias never being the story.

[ErnstRemarx]

I know I shouldn't have read it.

Labour ‘founded for working people’, Miliband tells white van man

http://gu.com/p/43gp7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" The focus on Labour meant that the prime minister escaped a major public postmortem in the wake of the loss of Rochester and Strood after pledging to throw the kitchen sink at the campaign. Reckless, who defected to Ukip in September, received 16,867 votes, 42.1% of the poll, in a seat listed as the 271st most likely to fall into Ukip hands. His Tory opponent, Kelly Tolhurst, took 13,947 votes (34.8%), a fall of 14.4 percentage points. Labour’s Naushabah Khan came third with 6,713 (16.8%, down 11.7 percentage points) and the Liberal Democrats won just 349 (0.9%, down 15.4 percentage points). The Lib Dems finished behind the Greens, who polled 1,692 (4.2%, up 2.7 percentage points). "

Yes, and who decided where the focus should be, could it have been, err, the media?

Yes, exactly.

With massive anti-Labour bias never being the story.

Why, one might almost posit that the whole issue was blown up to get rid of Thornberry for being effective in her shadow role and to ensure that Cameron didn't have to face the glare in the morning.

No, it couldn't happen here. Best media in the world. Incorruptible, and would never do what vested interests wanted, would they?

[AngryAsWell]

Another twitter storm tomorrow. Hashtag #CameronMustGo followed by ...a reason like..... "because sick & disabled people can't survive another 5 years of his bullying treatment."
Starts at 6pm, but some are tweeting already

[Tubby Isaacs]

Please keep it civil. That's both of you, by the way.

What's the costing and how will it be met? Two obvious questions I thought I'd ask. I like the idea, but unless it's fully thought through it will be shot to pieces as lefty nonsensical idealism. Having dealt in local finance (still talking about hundreds of millions) I'm acutely aware of the issues involved.

Would eligibility follow British citizenship? How would all of this square with EU law? Could it be reciprocal elsewhere? What of expatriate Britons? Would it be regionally variable? London weighting?

Just a few queries off the top of my head.

Housing isn't included in the basic payment, nor are benefits covering the costs of disability (as opposed to what you live on, if that makes sense), but everything else is. Think those exemptions are reasonable.

It's the EU bit that is the problem. How can somebody working and living in the UK for a longish period be reasonably denied it?

Cooper copped a lot of "out UKIPping UKIP" stuff the other day for making EU citizens work 2 years before eligibility for JSA. But isn't having a system of Citizens' Income more discriminatory?

Didn't find any details along these lines- hence I assumed, facetiously, there weren't any. Hence my flippant (apology for offence) point about free holiday spending money.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Wondering if The White Van Man Multiple Flag Owning Party will be in the television debates.I suppose I would be considered working class ,I have as much in common with them as I have with the Duke of Westminster,thats just a fact not a sneer.The real sneerers are those who think we are that easy to manipulate.

Gove's been getting stuck in.

Can you imagine a worse snob? Ooh, copy that, the private school people do it!

I bet he and Sarah Vine would love that bloke's flags over the next door house. And perhaps his kids could show up at the school their daughter is going to.

[citizenJA]

I know I shouldn't have read it.

Labour ‘founded for working people’, Miliband tells white van man

http://gu.com/p/43gp7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" The focus on Labour meant that the prime minister escaped a major public postmortem in the wake of the loss of Rochester and Strood after pledging to throw the kitchen sink at the campaign. Reckless, who defected to Ukip in September, received 16,867 votes, 42.1% of the poll, in a seat listed as the 271st most likely to fall into Ukip hands. His Tory opponent, Kelly Tolhurst, took 13,947 votes (34.8%), a fall of 14.4 percentage points. Labour’s Naushabah Khan came third with 6,713 (16.8%, down 11.7 percentage points) and the Liberal Democrats won just 349 (0.9%, down 15.4 percentage points). The Lib Dems finished behind the Greens, who polled 1,692 (4.2%, up 2.7 percentage points). "

Yes, and who decided where the focus should be, could it have been, err, the media?

Exactly - my first thought as well.

[citizenJA]

ROCHESTER AND STROOD BY ELECTION
Caused by the resignation of Mark Reckless, following his defection from the Conservative party to UKIP on the 27th October 2014 at the UKIP party conference.

Rochester and Strood by-election results 2014
UKIP gain Candidate Party Votes % +/− %
Mark Reckless UKIP 16,867 42.1 -
Majority - 2,920
Turnout: 50.6%

This guy was a Tory MP for Rochester & Strood 26 days ago.

Now he's a UKIP MP for Rochester & Strood.

[citizenJA]

Good night everyone.
I love you.

JA