Friday 21st November 2014

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 1:07 pm

THE problem is the MSM, not Ed or Labour. If even people here are playing their game, there really is no hope.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 1:14 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:THE problem is the MSM, not Ed or Labour. If even people here are playing their game, there really is no hope.

Say more if you have time Anatoly.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 1:18 pm

I think we need to remind ourselves why we support Labour (or not as the case may be).

For me it's because I see in Ed a genuine social democrat, an honest man who does have the interests of the country at heart, a man who believes he has the inner strength to see his goals achieved, a man in whom fairness means everything.

I want a man like this in power, a man with the integrity to carry out what he says he will & to under-promise but over-achieve. That he has to do this with bricks being flung at him by some in his own party, some of his own party members & supporters & the MSM yet still come out fighting is a sign of a remarkable man.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 1:19 pm

Just that Ed has an impossible job - people should stop criticising him for his decision re Thornberry (if it was, indeed, his - this is still far from clear)

He has stood up to the MSM enough times in his spell as leader (and not just the ones that always get mentioned, what about when he stood four square behind HH over the "paedo" smears?)

Maybe he decided Thornberry wasn't worth the candle, maybe he was wrong in that. I no longer care much, tbh - *he* is not the problem.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 1:26 pm

More Lib Dems jumping ship.

http://www.sleafordstandard.co.uk/news/ ... 3U.twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 1:27 pm

OK. Here's my little cheerer upper of the day.

Looking for opportunities for our Labour PPC to get to understand some of the issues affecting North Pembs - which is quite different to South Pembs where he hails from - the Preseli Pembs campaign organiser asked if anyone knew a local couple,entrepreneurs / business people, based up here who have been quite pioneering in setting up various enterprises and bringing back some of the skilled jobs that existed here for many decades until recently. I do - I piped up - because I go to Pilates every week with one of them (if that makes me sound like a lady who lunches - you are so wrong!). So I took on the delicate task of approaching them to set up a meeting.

I broached the subject this morning (yes, at Pilates) and was met with the most open and warm reception possible. They would be delighted to meet up with him - and she was clearly thrilled to have been identified as someone worth working with. She's particularly keen to work out how - having taken on older people in the area who already had the skills they needed (jeans making) they can spread that experience to young people.

Just want to give you a bit of positive - in this welter of despond coming from so many directions.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 1:31 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:THE problem is the MSM, not Ed or Labour. If even people here are playing their game, there really is no hope.

The problem is indeed the MSM - as evinced by the Tweet I've just seen of a man the Sun now calls White Van Dan pictured with the Sun's very own white van emblazoned with its logo standing outside Emily Thornberry's home.
He is, apparently, waiting for her to come out and apologise even though she is likely to be in the House debating the future of our NHS.
I wonder how much the Sun paid White Van Dan perform this specious stunt?

If you consider me to be one of the "people here" who are playing the media's nasty little game, Anatoly, you are mistaken.
It is not "playing their game" to be extremely annoyed that the leader to whom I have given my unequivocal support, for whom I trudge around knocking on doors and delivering hundreds of leaflets, despite chronic illness and needing 2 days to recover for half a day's campaigning, sees fit to capitulate to a manipulated story of such arrant bias and misinterpretation you will have to forgive me my anger at what I see as appeasement.
Having just watched Lucy Powell attempt to justify the sacking of Emily Thornberry, having heard what Ed had to say, and seen many Tweets and comments from other high-ranking Labour MPs, I am disgusted that Ed and his team did not have the courage - and, indeed, the sense - to treat this as the nonsense it is and call out those responsible for the stupid, manipulative, small-minded pathetic little hacks they are.

It's not good enough. Just when I thought Ed had courage, he does this. It's a craven capitulation to manufactured outrage, it's not what I expected from a man who stood up to Murdoch - I am seriously considering tearing up my card, and not for the first time.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 1:39 pm

Good morning, and hello. I've been reading here daily, but haven't felt much like posting. People are posting the things I would link to, and tbh, I've not got much positive to say, other than to thank you all for brightening my days.

What's been said here about being at war, and about us having suffered a coup, echoes everything I've felt since 2010. Todays comments on Thornberry drew me out, it's a measure of where we are that even here her wealth and background are discussed, as though those things are validatory or not, and a measure of how tough life can be comes through the presence or absence of wealth. It's my belief that the meanspirited wrongheaded mob out there would even consume lovely Harry Leslie Smith in their feeding frenzy. It's no longer enough to be a decent person. Any one can be a sacrificial goat at this particular altar.

I'm not sure we aren't already past the tipping point, even though there's loads of people who don't seem to be aware of what we are dealing with, or the part they themselves are playing. Thornberry proves we haven't yet passed the stage where people think the malignant spirit abroad in our land can be appeased. It won't be, it's hunger won't be satiated and it can't be reasoned with, and we are all more affected by it than we like to admit.

Apologies for the above on a rather abysmal sort of day. It's a gloomy post, I know, but it's not without hope. The Chinese traditionally had a different view of revolution than the west. They saw it as cyclical, rather than an end in itself, and that there are inevitable stages within that cycle. We tend to make the mistake that things are a lot more fixed than they are. There's a lot to be said for starving malign spirits.

I'd hoped for more discussion on whether or not the NHS thing (sorry, cannot recall the name of the proposer) would be helpful or not. Though many support it in principle a brief reading reveals its weaknesses. There's a petition out there about its flaws, would love to know what people here think about it. It has some limited merit if one hopes a Labour win at the GE will bring and end to the H&SC act. if not at best it might obstruct any other government, at worst it does not create a genuine block to privatisation, or insurance based solutions. This had to be pointed out to me, as I wasn't ready to admit it, I so wished to believe it was a true safeguard. So any thoughts would be welcome.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 1:39 pm

Sorry, I disagree. The meme that she put into operation is almost unbelievably toxic for the party.

But an apology would surely still have sufficed, if our MSM wasn't so poisonous.

But anyway.......if we want to do something useful instead of turning on each other, let's do everything we can to get that "selfie" of Nick Robinson with the fascist "Britain First" candidate at the Rochester count as widely known as possible - his "excuse" is that he didn't know who she was (even though she had a bloody big "CANDIDATE" badge on) but why should ignorance be a defence for him any more than the MSM allows it for politicians??

Live by the sword..........

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 1:48 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Sorry, I disagree. The meme that she put into operation is almost unbelievably toxic for the party.

But an apology would surely still have sufficed, if our MSM wasn't so poisonous.

But anyway.......if we want to do something useful instead of turning on each other, let's do everything we can to get that "selfie" of Nick Robinson with the fascist "Britain First" candidate at the Rochester count as widely known as possible - his "excuse" is that he didn't know who she was (even though she had a bloody big "CANDIDATE" badge on) but why should ignorance be a defence for him any more than the MSM allows it for politicians??

Live by the sword..........

Precisely. And Nick Robinson likes to call himself a journalist with his finger on the political pulse? Risible.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 1:56 pm

From the Commons...

Clive Efford, the Labour MP sponsoring the bill, asked Reckless to explain why he voted for the Act when he was a Tory MP. Reckless said he was “guilty of believing the undertakings I was given by the front bench opposite.”

And the first time you come out with this is after you've jumped ship and your new party is trying to attract Labour voters?

How very convenient. And I don't believe a single word of it.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 2:02 pm

ephemerid wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:THE problem is the MSM, not Ed or Labour. If even people here are playing their game, there really is no hope.

The problem is indeed the MSM - as evinced by the Tweet I've just seen of a man the Sun now calls White Van Dan pictured with the Sun's very own white van emblazoned with its logo standing outside Emily Thornberry's home.
He is, apparently, waiting for her to come out and apologise even though she is likely to be in the House debating the future of our NHS.
I wonder how much the Sun paid White Van Dan perform this specious stunt?

If you consider me to be one of the "people here" who are playing the media's nasty little game, Anatoly, you are mistaken.
It is not "playing their game" to be extremely annoyed that the leader to whom I have given my unequivocal support, for whom I trudge around knocking on doors and delivering hundreds of leaflets, despite chronic illness and needing 2 days to recover for half a day's campaigning, sees fit to capitulate to a manipulated story of such arrant bias and misinterpretation you will have to forgive me my anger at what I see as appeasement.
Having just watched Lucy Powell attempt to justify the sacking of Emily Thornberry, having heard what Ed had to say, and seen many Tweets and comments from other high-ranking Labour MPs, I am disgusted that Ed and his team did not have the courage - and, indeed, the sense - to treat this as the nonsense it is and call out those responsible for the stupid, manipulative, small-minded pathetic little hacks they are.

It's not good enough. Just when I thought Ed had courage, he does this. It's a craven capitulation to manufactured outrage, it's not what I expected from a man who stood up to Murdoch - I am seriously considering tearing up my card, and not for the first time.

I'm not convinced it would be fair to accuse Ed Miliband of ever being afraid of standing up to the press. If he was indeed angry with Thornberry, if he was instrumental in her resignation then, on past experience, I would suggest that there is a matter of principle at stake. Two things spring to mind. The first is that the tweet, showing a family home and a car reg number, was something of an invasion of privacy. Whatever Thornberry meant to convey with the tweet, she put an innocent (if not particularly endearing) individual at the heart of it without their consent, which, given the media scrutiny at the time due to the by-election, was a case of extremely poor judgement. And that brings me to my secondly, one of judgement. Is inviting people to look at someone's flag festooned home the act of a dedicated 'one nation' Labourite? Singling people out, stereotyping and the putting of voters in boxes is a rather neoliberal mindset. Can it really be wondered as a result that Ed finds himself mistrusting her instincts?

That's not to say your take on this is wrong. You may well be right. But even if you are right, it would be a shame if you gave up on Labour. For me Labour is not its leader or MPs, it's an idea, a movement. It's the struggle of the ordinary and oppressed against their rulers and oppressors. When you go out knocking on doors and handing out leaflets, you aren't representing Ed Miliband, you're representing the many Labour party and Union members that make up the Labour movement and your efforts are always appreciated by us.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 2:09 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:From the Commons...

Clive Efford, the Labour MP sponsoring the bill, asked Reckless to explain why he voted for the Act when he was a Tory MP. Reckless said he was “guilty of believing the undertakings I was given by the front bench opposite.”
And the first time you come out with this is after you've jumped ship and your new party is trying to attract Labour voters?

How very convenient. And I don't believe a single word of it.

Incidentally, the Bill passed the vote by a margin of 241 to 18! As Clive Efford said:

Clive Efford @CliveEfford
· 2m 2 minutes ago
Government unable to defend its own #NHS privatisation legislation. They must listen to the will of the House and let it go into committee

Not a single Lib Dem was in attendance either afaik (apparently Simon Hughes turned up in the chamber five minutes after the vote was taken). That party no longer possesses even a shred of credibility.

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 2:34 pm

The Sun have now violated Emily Thornberry's privacy by printing a photo of her front door with White Van Dan in front. It looks like he's twisted her knocker.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 2:37 pm

The little clip of Dennis Skinner ought to be compulsory viewing. It helped me, and I hope it will help whoever posted a now withdrawn post. I resized the post to find out who it was, and it had gone.

We are in this fight on the right side, and I believe Mr Ed is too.

onebuttonmonkey · Post by **onebuttonmonkey** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 2:38 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Sorry, I disagree. The meme that she put into operation is almost unbelievably toxic for the party.

But an apology would surely still have sufficed, if our MSM wasn't so poisonous.

But anyway.......if we want to do something useful instead of turning on each other, let's do everything we can to get that "selfie" of Nick Robinson with the fascist "Britain First" candidate at the Rochester count as widely known as possible - his "excuse" is that he didn't know who she was (even though she had a bloody big "CANDIDATE" badge on) but why should ignorance be a defence for him any more than the MSM allows it for politicians??

Live by the sword..........

I don't know.

First up, I don't give a hoot about the Thornberry tweet: as someone will have said better elsewhere, the manufactured outrage is completely out of touch with anything in my life (Csakagondamunka has been really good on this in the other place) but the panic of the reaction does demonstrate a certain out of touchness, too. I'd have been happy if they'd Dennis Skinnered the thing (especially because they don't seem to know what it was about the picture that had made her resignation necessary.... besides the fact there was a lot of fuss, they don't get the fuss) and called it for what it was but, as I say, I don't especially care. The whole bloody thing just makes me sick of the media and the enforced barriers on political discourse. And secondly, you'll all know I detest the one-dimensional roiling spin-engine that is Robinson - he's an agent of the news rather than a reporter of it, with all the stunning insight and startling vision of Andy Townsend, only remorselessly, toxically Tory.

But. Well, but for all that Robinson's part of the problems with the way politics is conducted, if it was wrong for Thornberry to have to resign over a stupid picture on social media, then why isn't it also wrong that he might have to resign for being involved in a stupid picture on social media? And if she shoouldn't have had to resign, why should he? Yes, he should've known better, but really, I don't doubt for one minute that a London-centric, elite establishment political editor is out of touch with full facial recognition of minority provincial racists. I also don't doubt that Thornberry didn't mean anything like what her tweet's been made into, so why should we respond to that indignity by perpetrating the same act on someone else, just because we don't like him as much as they don't like us? At best it makes us just as bad.

Robinson, if he's going to be sacked, should be sacked for the right reasons: bias being the primary one on the BBC. The same as Fox and Miller and Hunt and Gove and all the rest of them should have but usually didn't and then got to resign while denying there was any reason. We on the left (fans of Ed or not) do not beat the bastards by being just as bad as them but from the other direction. That only makes the bounds of what's acceptable and what the other lot can get inexplicably, resignation-demandingly pseudo-offended by even worse, even narrower.

It's a shame Labour didn't call it what it was but it's not really a huge deal and it'll vanish soon enough. It just marks - along with Mylene - the beginning of an onslaught. And that will require better media management whether they tough some things out or argue others of them away. But let's not become the thing we need to replace, eh? Robinson is what he is. A dumb photo that he should have known better than is the least of his offenses, and some of the outrage at that photo is as manufactured as that at the flag man. We're better than that.

</rant>

Apologies for wheeling in and mouthing off. This place is brilliant and I like to see all of your takes on what's happening. After the last week, I'm too tetchy, too, so, you know. The Sun's a filthy rag and Robinson a hack, but hey ho - we knew these were the terms. Now we need a smarter battleplan than the awful smear they're lobbing at us. Or several hundred more Dennis Skinners.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 2:40 pm

Central government has 1,524 WTE staff working on press and communications only.

The Home Office has 276, the Cabinet Office has 205, and DWP has 184.

I do not know how many of these are civil servants and how many are SPADs or whatever.

See - http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/central-g ... ions-staff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 2:42 pm

AK, I think EM must accept some criticism. The Klass thing for example. He could have quietly and politely said words to the effect of stfu and listen instead of letting her trample all over him by shouting him down. He could suspend the whip from Danczuk (sp?). He could try being more adventurous with his policy. Why are they accepting austerity? Why are Labour joining in the attacks on the poor, disabled and so on. He could sack Ummuna and Reeves and promote some people from outside his circle. It's his timidity that disappoints. I have swallowed the media line. But when he's on Marr or WatO and they just talk over him he needs to learn how to shut them up and get them to treat him with as much deference as they show the Tories. Sometimes he's too polite for his own good. He could even say he supports a strike now and then. I agree with ephe on this; he's got to start giving as good as he gets or he'll keep getting bullied.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 2:45 pm

ephemerid wrote:Central government has 1,524 WTE staff working on press and communications only.

The Home Office has 276, the Cabinet Office has 205, and DWP has 184.

I do not know how many of these are civil servants and how many are SPADs or whatever.

See - http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/central-g ... ions-staff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The requested page could not be found.

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/central-g ... ions-staff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think I've found the article.

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/central-g ... wers-until" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 2:45 pm

seeingclearly wrote:Good morning, and hello. I've been reading here daily, but haven't felt much like posting. People are posting the things I would link to, and tbh, I've not got much positive to say, other than to thank you all for brightening my days.

What's been said here about being at war, and about us having suffered a coup, echoes everything I've felt since 2010. Todays comments on Thornberry drew me out, it's a measure of where we are that even here her wealth and background are discussed, as though those things are validatory or not, and a measure of how tough life can be comes through the presence or absence of wealth. It's my belief that the meanspirited wrongheaded mob out there would even consume lovely Harry Leslie Smith in their feeding frenzy. It's no longer enough to be a decent person. Any one can be a sacrificial goat at this particular altar.

I'm not sure we aren't already past the tipping point, even though there's loads of people who don't seem to be aware of what we are dealing with, or the part they themselves are playing. Thornberry proves we haven't yet passed the stage where people think the malignant spirit abroad in our land can be appeased. It won't be, it's hunger won't be satiated and it can't be reasoned with, and we are all more affected by it than we like to admit.

Apologies for the above on a rather abysmal sort of day. It's a gloomy post, I know, but it's not without hope. The Chinese traditionally had a different view of revolution than the west. They saw it as cyclical, rather than an end in itself, and that there are inevitable stages within that cycle. We tend to make the mistake that things are a lot more fixed than they are. There's a lot to be said for starving malign spirits.

I'd hoped for more discussion on whether or not the NHS thing (sorry, cannot recall the name of the proposer) would be helpful or not. Though many support it in principle a brief reading reveals its weaknesses. There's a petition out there about its flaws, would love to know what people here think about it. It has some limited merit if one hopes a Labour win at the GE will bring and end to the H&SC act. if not at best it might obstruct any other government, at worst it does not create a genuine block to privatisation, or insurance based solutions. This had to be pointed out to me, as I wasn't ready to admit it, I so wished to believe it was a true safeguard. So any thoughts would be welcome.

This may help on the NHS bill

Clive Efford Bill – What Exactly is It?
http://sochealthlondon.com/blog/4584293153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(I'm in "facts" mode - can't post on anything else at the moment, have a really dark feeling of foreboding)

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:03 pm

Labour Whips ‏@labourwhips · 25m25 minutes ago
Interestingly after introducing @MarkReckless to @HouseofCommons Philip Hollobone voted for the #SaveTheNHS Bill along with #UKIP

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:13 pm

I am getting so tired of the constant whining about Ed/Labour from people,who,if they have the sense to see what the coalition govt is doing to this country,are unable to then have the sense to be supportive of the only party who will be able to replace them in 2015.
No politician can be perfect,no party will have policies which suit everybody.Get over it and look at the big picture.
I've been thinking this since 2010.Labour had just been dumped by the electorate,many people voted libdem instead of Labour for example,then about 2 seconds after the rose garden love-in,the whining started.Like Ed is supposed to be superman and come to our rescue.People got the bloody govt they deserved if you ask me,five years of it.
Instead of Labour ripping itself apart,Ed has pulled them together.
During the referendum it was Labour that managed to prevent a yes vote,which would have been economically disasterous for Scotland,and now they are being threatened with a wipe-out in Scotland in thanks.
There are 6 months to go before the election and I think it's high time labour supporters stopped moaning and consider the good things that the party has done this past four years.
This is a general rant,so ephe,don't start with the 'are you referring to me' like you did to Anatoly,because if I was I would have replied to your post specifically.
edited to add,I'm also sick of the Ed should say this/do that/look like this etc.Anybody who thinks they could do the job better should maybe get into politics and see how well they do.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:18 pm

Well. This working class and proud of it old tart won't read Tweets and notifications [only post] and is staying away from all the papers until after the weekend.

It's what I expected and there'll be far more of the same, because that's the only way the Cons can win. They have no policies, a dismal four and a half years behind them and the wilderness ahead. There will be promises and favours flying around Fleet St. It's a foregone conclusion they'll not suddenly behave. There's far too much money involved. They're clinging on by their fingertips and it's showing.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:18 pm

Rebecca wrote:I am getting so tired of the constant whining about Ed/Labour from people,who,if they have the sense to see what the coalition govt is doing to this country,are unable to then have the sense to be supportive of the only party who will be able to replace them in 2015.
No politician can be perfect,no party will have policies which suit everybody.Get over it and look at the big picture.
I've been thinking this since 2010.Labour had just been dumped by the electorate,many people voted libdem instead of Labour for example,then about 2 seconds after the rose garden love-in,the whining started.Like Ed is supposed to be superman and come to our rescue.People got the bloody govt they deserved if you ask me,five years of it.
Instead of Labour ripping itself apart,Ed has pulled them together.
During the referendum it was Labour that managed to prevent a yes vote,which would have been economically disasterous for Scotland,and now they are being threatened with a wipe-out in Scotland in thanks.
There are 6 months to go before the election and I think it's high time labour supporters stopped moaning and consider the good things that the party has done this past four years.
This is a general rant,so ephe,don't start with the 'are you referring to me' like you did to Anatoly,because if I was I would have replied to your post specifically.
edited to add,I'm also sick of the Ed should say this/do that/look like this etc.Anybody who thinks they could do the job better should maybe get into politics and see how well they do.

THIS ^^^

(Can you post up the details of those raspberry things you posted about the other day please ? They sounded delicious & anything easy to produce is just fine by me

)

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:19 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Good morning, and hello. I've been reading here daily, but haven't felt much like posting. People are posting the things I would link to, and tbh, I've not got much positive to say, other than to thank you all for brightening my days.

What's been said here about being at war, and about us having suffered a coup, echoes everything I've felt since 2010. Todays comments on Thornberry drew me out, it's a measure of where we are that even here her wealth and background are discussed, as though those things are validatory or not, and a measure of how tough life can be comes through the presence or absence of wealth. It's my belief that the meanspirited wrongheaded mob out there would even consume lovely Harry Leslie Smith in their feeding frenzy. It's no longer enough to be a decent person. Any one can be a sacrificial goat at this particular altar.

I'm not sure we aren't already past the tipping point, even though there's loads of people who don't seem to be aware of what we are dealing with, or the part they themselves are playing. Thornberry proves we haven't yet passed the stage where people think the malignant spirit abroad in our land can be appeased. It won't be, it's hunger won't be satiated and it can't be reasoned with, and we are all more affected by it than we like to admit.

Apologies for the above on a rather abysmal sort of day. It's a gloomy post, I know, but it's not without hope. The Chinese traditionally had a different view of revolution than the west. They saw it as cyclical, rather than an end in itself, and that there are inevitable stages within that cycle. We tend to make the mistake that things are a lot more fixed than they are. There's a lot to be said for starving malign spirits.

I'd hoped for more discussion on whether or not the NHS thing (sorry, cannot recall the name of the proposer) would be helpful or not. Though many support it in principle a brief reading reveals its weaknesses. There's a petition out there about its flaws, would love to know what people here think about it. It has some limited merit if one hopes a Labour win at the GE will bring and end to the H&SC act. if not at best it might obstruct any other government, at worst it does not create a genuine block to privatisation, or insurance based solutions. This had to be pointed out to me, as I wasn't ready to admit it, I so wished to believe it was a true safeguard. So any thoughts would be welcome.
This may help on the NHS bill

Clive Efford Bill – What Exactly is It?
http://sochealthlondon.com/blog/4584293153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(I'm in "facts" mode - can't post on anything else at the moment, have a really dark feeling of foreboding)

Thank you so much for the link, I could see the SoS aspect, but was not informed enough to counter the rest. That is a great little resource.

I'm all for the still small voice in a time of universal babel. That or a small fish in the ear, though I do love Dennis for his truth telling rants. I'm dealing with a young person with similar feelings to yours, he's been the light of my life, so quite worrying, and yes, staying in the factual helps. Babel isn't an easy place to be in, hope your fish is firmly in place again. We knew this would be a rough ride. xxx

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:23 pm

seeingclearly wrote:The little clip of Dennis Skinner ought to be compulsory viewing. It helped me, and I hope it will help whoever posted a now withdrawn post. I resized the post to find out who it was, and it had gone.

We are in this fight on the right side, and I believe Mr Ed is too.

I posted one and deleted it? is that what you mean?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:23 pm

And the eleventh commandment was:

Thou shall be extremely careful what thou post on Twitter.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:32 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... berry.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No comment necessary.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:38 pm

http://labourlist.org/2014/11/carswell- ... ing-class/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

''Pretending to be Labour in the North and Tories in the South'' that wants hammering home from Labour, Reckless asserting that UKIP are there for the working class is the biggest load of cobblers since the end of Twin Peaks. Owen Smith is dead right there.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:42 pm

Rebecca wrote:I am getting so tired of the constant whining about Ed/Labour from people,who,if they have the sense to see what the coalition govt is doing to this country,are unable to then have the sense to be supportive of the only party who will be able to replace them in 2015.
No politician can be perfect,no party will have policies which suit everybody.Get over it and look at the big picture.
I've been thinking this since 2010.Labour had just been dumped by the electorate,many people voted libdem instead of Labour for example,then about 2 seconds after the rose garden love-in,the whining started.Like Ed is supposed to be superman and come to our rescue.People got the bloody govt they deserved if you ask me,five years of it.
Instead of Labour ripping itself apart,Ed has pulled them together.
During the referendum it was Labour that managed to prevent a yes vote,which would have been economically disasterous for Scotland,and now they are being threatened with a wipe-out in Scotland in thanks.
There are 6 months to go before the election and I think it's high time labour supporters stopped moaning and consider the good things that the party has done this past four years.
This is a general rant,so ephe,don't start with the 'are you referring to me' like you did to Anatoly,because if I was I would have replied to your post specifically.
edited to add,I'm also sick of the Ed should say this/do that/look like this etc.Anybody who thinks they could do the job better should maybe get into politics and see how well they do.

Thanks for your non-specific rant. I wasn't having a go at AK either, just ranting in my own way. Honours even.

I am not whining or moaning - I am expressing my irritation at what I see. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to do.

I have said, ever since I joined this forum, that what I want is the Tories out; preferably by fair means but I'll take foul if necessary.
That's why I joined Labour, that's why I am the vice-chair of my local group, that's why I pound pavements in all weathers while ill.

I've had to accept that the Labour people in social security posts have no real understanding of what people like me are campaigning for and that there is very little chance of the situation for people like me getting any better if Labour get in - but I am also aware that even if Labour is nothing more than the least worst option in that respect, they are a lot better on other issues which I consider important.

What has annoyed me about this affair is the almost instant capitulation to pressure from the media. We know perfectly well that this is a storm in a teacup, but one that has had the effect of removing a very effective individual from the opposition front bench.
As with the Klass crap, it's obvious that whatever Ed does it will be wrong, that's the agenda, and that's what we'll hear day in day out for the next six months - and it's all the more reason to stand up and fight on every single misrepresentation, every single stupid stunt, every single time and with vigour.

I've promised Show I won't tear up my card for now, however angry I am. I have other shit going on that I am having trouble handling like a grown-up mainly because I'm dealing with morons who aren't grown-ups either; perhaps this is just the last straw on what has been a very difficult week.

But it's not right to say that folks are moaning and not seeing the bigger picture - it's possible to do both.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:42 pm

Afternoon all. Can't understand why everyone is so down - it's not as if we didn't think that the MSM would treat Labour with kid gloves this close to an election.
Let's look on the bright side. The Thornberry thing will blow over in a couple of days (Sunday rags may try and flog a dead horse but it'll be gone by Monday). Cameron lost a safe seat, after throwing the kitchen sink at it, and there's every chance that at least 1 more MP (Hollobone?) will jump ship.
Oh, and the Lib Dems got a stunning 349 votes - thats 0.87 of the electorate. As Onebuttonmonkey pointed out, the lowest attendance for a Conference game this year was Alfreton vs. Braintree, when 442 people turned up. Less people voted Lib Dem than watched Alfreton play Braintree

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:43 pm

What have we been saying for weeks...Wonder what the press will come up with to take the heat away from a possible Tory party meltdown when UKIP wins Rochester - which we all knew would happen and bless her, Emily inadvertently provided the blue touch paper.
Did Ed lose his temper? If he did, maybe that's what is needed to pull some of the moaning minnie Blairites in line. I think he's been a saint up 'til now. Many a man or woman would have buckled months ago.

It's par for the course. Smears and lies are the first order of the day above any actual policies. It's American politics and how it's going to be from now on.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:46 pm

The list of Noes for Clive Efford's bill:

NOES
Baldry, rh Sir Tony
Baldwin, Harriett
Bray, Angie
Chope, Mr Christopher
Davies, Philip
Dunne, Mr Philip
Eustice, George
Goodwill, Mr Robert
Gyimah, Mr Sam
Hands, rh Greg
Heald, Sir Oliver
Letwin, rh Mr Oliver
Nuttall, Mr David
Patel, Priti
Penning, rh Mike
Poulter, Dr Daniel
Swayne, rh Mr Desmond
Vaizey, Mr Edward
Tellers for the Noes:

Anne Milton
and

Mr David Evennett

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:51 pm

Public sector borrowing (the difference between spending and income) was £7.7 billion in October 2014, a decrease of £0.2 billion compared with October last year. This additional borrowing needed to balance the public sector’s accounts means that between April and October the public sector borrowed £64.1 billion, a rise of £3.7 billion compared with the same period last year, as illustrated above.
Between April and October 2014 central government’s income was £340.6 billion, an increase of £3.8 billion on the same period last year.
While strong growth in VAT (up £2.2 billion to £71.2 billion) and stamp duty on land & property (up £1.5 billion to £6.8 billion) have boosted government receipts, income tax receipts have been weak. In the 7 months of the financial year income tax receipts were down £0.3 billion to £81.5 billion, compared to the same period last year, despite a fall in unemployment.
Over the same period, central government spent £398.7 billion, an increase of £9.0 billion.
Of this £398.7 billion, £234.4 billion was spent by central government departments (such as health, education and defence), £116.1 billion on social benefits (such as pensions, unemployment payments, child benefit and maternity pay), £30.3 billion on interest payments (on the government’s outstanding debt) and £17.9 billion on capital investment (such as buildings and infrastructure).
While the deficit in 2013/14 has fallen by a third since its peak in 2009/10, the continued reliance on borrowing has seen public sector net debt reach £1,449.2 billion, or 79.5% of GDP in October 2014.

From the ONS today. My emphasis.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:52 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
seeingclearly wrote: I'd hoped for more discussion on whether or not the NHS thing (sorry, cannot recall the name of the proposer) would be helpful or not. Though many support it in principle a brief reading reveals its weaknesses. There's a petition out there about its flaws, would love to know what people here think about it. It has some limited merit if one hopes a Labour win at the GE will bring and end to the H&SC act. if not at best it might obstruct any other government, at worst it does not create a genuine block to privatisation, or insurance based solutions. This had to be pointed out to me, as I wasn't ready to admit it, I so wished to believe it was a true safeguard. So any thoughts would be welcome.
This may help on the NHS bill

Clive Efford Bill – What Exactly is It?
http://sochealthlondon.com/blog/4584293153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(I'm in "facts" mode - can't post on anything else at the moment, have a really dark feeling of foreboding)

I saw 5 minutes of the debate this morning, Efford was asked by another Lab MP whether the bill could/would abolish the purchaser/provider split*. Efford's answer was that that would require another top-down reorganisation.
Which as we know they have promised not to do.

Although Wales and Scotland have done it, does anyone know of any feedback on that?

*can't recall the exact words.

MorganLlan · Post by **MorganLlan** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 3:58 pm

Whilst I understand some people being angry with Emily Thornberry, my own view is that she is, at worst, naive.

You could have tried to have a kind of nuanced argument with the MSM who were screeching and sharpening their pencils. I don't know Emily Thornberry and so I can't say for definite what she was thinking other than here is a house with 3 England flags - and a white van. Since I don't know her, I am unable to say that she was making any kind of comment about it, and definitely not that she was sneering at the "white working class", let alone the people/person living in the house. After all she couldn't know who lived there. It was others who made the assumption, which suggests that this is something which is in their own minds - along the lines of "Through the Keyhole" - "who lives in house like this? Flags, big white van, Oh yeah, white working class, it must be Dan the shaven headed white van man". They would all have looked a bit silly if the occupants had turned out to be a married couple of football supporting Afro Carribean women.

In truth, yesterday, on that day of all days, neither you, nor I or anyone, including Ed Milliband could have won that argument. I find in life sometimes it's better to choose your battles and in politics even more so. Emily Thornberry will understand this. She's been at the front line for long enough. The only way to stop the story dead in its tracks was for her to fall on her sword. If she didn't then Ed would have been hounded by the media constantly asking him why he didn't sack her, or if he would apologise, in the same way that Brown was over the McBride episode. It may be that some find this disloyal or weak, in giving in to the bullying media.

(And whilst that is in my mind - how many among us wonder how a personal email which was written supposedly from inside the government secure internet ended up with a certain blogger? And why was there far more fuss about the offending email having been sent from a government pc/email account than there has been over the sending of official government emails with a certain government department using a private email account?)

I have to say I am a little surprised at the descriptions of Islington - it must be a consituency of huge contrasts because the bits I have seen are rather less "posh" that it is being suggested.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:00 pm

The Welsh dragon roaring once more and this is a great place to invest and grow.

So says David Cameron, only a few short months Offa's Dyke was the line between life and death.

Excuse me while I

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/b ... on-8150112" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:04 pm

gilsey wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
seeingclearly wrote: I'd hoped for more discussion on whether or not the NHS thing (sorry, cannot recall the name of the proposer) would be helpful or not. Though many support it in principle a brief reading reveals its weaknesses. There's a petition out there about its flaws, would love to know what people here think about it. It has some limited merit if one hopes a Labour win at the GE will bring and end to the H&SC act. if not at best it might obstruct any other government, at worst it does not create a genuine block to privatisation, or insurance based solutions. This had to be pointed out to me, as I wasn't ready to admit it, I so wished to believe it was a true safeguard. So any thoughts would be welcome.
This may help on the NHS bill

Clive Efford Bill – What Exactly is It?
http://sochealthlondon.com/blog/4584293153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(I'm in "facts" mode - can't post on anything else at the moment, have a really dark feeling of foreboding)
I saw 5 minutes of the debate this morning, Efford was asked by another Lab MP whether the bill could/would abolish the purchaser/provider split*. Efford's answer was that that would require another top-down reorganisation.
Which as we know they have promised not to do.

Although Wales and Scotland have done it, does anyone know of any feedback on that?

*can't recall the exact words.

What I do know is that the purchaser provider split is a bloody good thing, and it has already been broken by Lansley.

You do not want the commissioner providing the services.

Shall we go with A, B or my crappy in house service C.

(Option C is being favoured by certain GPs).

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:09 pm

The OBR is expected to revise up the Government's borrowing forecasts on December 3, when the Chancellor will present the Autumn Statement.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... -pile.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chancellor-haunted-by-deficit-and-1.45-trillion-debt-pile

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:09 pm

MorganLlan wrote:
(And whilst that is in my mind - how many among us wonder how a personal email which was written supposedly from inside the government secure internet ended up with a certain blogger? A

What have I missed ??

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:12 pm

If I've done the arithmetic right, Osborne is on track to bring in £6 billion less income tax than forecast this financial year.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:19 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
Tish wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:Oh, and don't get me started on John Harris, he lost all legitimacy when he reckoned Plaid Cymru were running amok in the South Wales valleys, they aren't. Today's piece is in a similar vein.
I used to like John Harris but I'm increasingly baffled as to what it is that he wants. After writing seemingly weekly articles about how UKIP are eating into Labour's vote, and how they have to start addressing the concerns of potential UKIP voters and talk about immigration, he suddenly does a complete turnaround and claims Labour are pushing potential voters away to the Greens by sounding too much like UKIP and banging on about immigration! It's just ridiculous.

Does he honestly think that there is some kind of magical policy ground that Labour can adopt which will appeal to both potential Green and UKIP voters (and presumably attract those flirting with the SNP as well)? If so, I wish he'd bloody well share it with the rest of us.
The world has gone mad. Monday I found out that someone who used to be a member of our local Green party has defected to UKIP. WTF? He wasn't just a supporter - when he lived in Watford, he run our twitter account!

Morning all btw. Probably a flying visit though I'll be dipping in and out no doubt. Today is my youngest son's 18th birthday. I have to somehow turn what is currently a building site back into a home fit to have guests later today. I may be gone some time...........

The world certainly seems to have gone mad, from where I am sitting

Happy 18th to your youngest son! Enjoy the party

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:22 pm

MorganLlan wrote:In truth, yesterday, on that day of all days, neither you, nor I or anyone, including Ed Milliband could have won that argument. I find in life sometimes it's better to choose your battles and in politics even more so. Emily Thornberry will understand this. She's been at the front line for long enough. The only way to stop the story dead in its tracks was for her to fall on her sword. If she didn't then Ed would have been hounded by the media constantly asking him why he didn't sack her, or if he would apologise, in the same way that Brown was over the McBride episode. It may be that some find this disloyal or weak, in giving in to the bullying media.

Well said. I have had a not dissimilar conversation on Twitter today with Éoin Clarke who was praising Tom Watson for comments he is supposed to have made in the Guardian * about changes to PPC selection being mooted by the Labour Party; Watson may well be right, it may be a retrograde step, but was yesterday the best day to be fighting that battle? You pick your battles carefully, preferably on the terrain of your choosing; what you don't need are people like Watson and Danczuk going off half cocked, or one of your central team showing your opponents a potential chink in your armour. ** Thornberry knew, as you say, that she had to fall on her sword *** to make the story go away quicker, but I have no doubt she'll be back if (when?) Labour win the election next year.

* But, as I don't go there etc
** I'm rereading Al Murray's book about watching war films with his dad, so please excuse all the military metaphors. Even if they weren't that bad.
*** Blimey, are you reading it too?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:25 pm

MorganLlan wrote:Whilst I understand some people being angry with Emily Thornberry, my own view is that she is, at worst, naive.

You could have tried to have a kind of nuanced argument with the MSM who were screeching and sharpening their pencils. I don't know Emily Thornberry and so I can't say for definite what she was thinking other than here is a house with 3 England flags - and a white van. Since I don't know her, I am unable to say that she was making any kind of comment about it, and definitely not that she was sneering at the "white working class", let alone the people/person living in the house. After all she couldn't know who lived there. It was others who made the assumption, which suggests that this is something which is in their own minds - along the lines of "Through the Keyhole" - "who lives in house like this? Flags, big white van, Oh yeah, white working class, it must be Dan the shaven headed white van man". They would all have looked a bit silly if the occupants had turned out to be a married couple of football supporting Afro Carribean women.

In truth, yesterday, on that day of all days, neither you, nor I or anyone, including Ed Milliband could have won that argument. I find in life sometimes it's better to choose your battles and in politics even more so. Emily Thornberry will understand this. She's been at the front line for long enough. The only way to stop the story dead in its tracks was for her to fall on her sword. If she didn't then Ed would have been hounded by the media constantly asking him why he didn't sack her, or if he would apologise, in the same way that Brown was over the McBride episode. It may be that some find this disloyal or weak, in giving in to the bullying media.

(And whilst that is in my mind - how many among us wonder how a personal email which was written supposedly from inside the government secure internet ended up with a certain blogger? And why was there far more fuss about the offending email having been sent from a government pc/email account than there has been over the sending of official government emails with a certain government department using a private email account?)

I have to say I am a little surprised at the descriptions of Islington - it must be a consituency of huge contrasts because the bits I have seen are rather less "posh" that it is being suggested.

You've just jogged my memory....

We never did get to see Gove's Mrs Blurt emails did we.
The Tories have ignored so many misdeeds and scandals it would fill a book.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:35 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02chktn

A caller to a radio station tries to put a Sun hack right, apparently it's all about what Labour genuinely think of people.

Utter bollocks.

Emily Ashton (the reporter in question) is leaving the Sun to join Buzzfeed in the new year. Robert Colville is doing the same, from the Telegraph.

The Sun have been driving around London with the man from the flags house (van plastered with Sun stickers, posing with todays Sun front page, etc.,) and sent him knocking on ET's front door to ask for an apology. Patently, neither they nor he saw her apologising this morning as she was leaving home – presumably to go to the HoC...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:36 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
gilsey wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote: This may help on the NHS bill

Clive Efford Bill – What Exactly is It?
http://sochealthlondon.com/blog/4584293153" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(I'm in "facts" mode - can't post on anything else at the moment, have a really dark feeling of foreboding)
I saw 5 minutes of the debate this morning, Efford was asked by another Lab MP whether the bill could/would abolish the purchaser/provider split*. Efford's answer was that that would require another top-down reorganisation.
Which as we know they have promised not to do.

Although Wales and Scotland have done it, does anyone know of any feedback on that?

*can't recall the exact words.

What I do know is that the purchaser provider split is a bloody good thing, and it has already been broken by Lansley.

You do not want the commissioner providing the services.

Shall we go with A, B or my crappy in house service C.

(Option C is being favoured by certain GPs).

I've got some sympathy for that view.

Alwyn Turner made some good points about old-style public service and its patchiness, and how it was sometimes like it or lump it. He credits John Major (who he likes) as having challenged it first with the Citizen's Charter, trying to promote rights in your dealings with the public sector. That then got developed into the multiple targets of the Blair government.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:37 pm

And also let us not forget. Once upon a time if a minister cocked up, it was instant resignation or dismissal...That's what the honourable in Honourable Member for wherever, is supposed to mean.
The Tories have gradually eroded that principle, so on reflection I actually condone what Ed has done. People are disillusioned seeing what MPs get away with. He is giving us a reminder of how politics should be. It's a shame it had to be Emily, but there can be no exceptions.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:38 pm

I'm rather looking forward to the Autumn Statement. Less than 6 months until the election, deficit practically eliminated after "weathering the storm", march of the makers has rebalanced the economy and the precious AAA rating intact.

Peston's take on the latest figures.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30144813" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:40 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02chktn

A caller to a radio station tries to put a Sun hack right, apparently it's all about what Labour genuinely think of people.

Utter bollocks.
Emily Ashton (the reporter in question) is leaving the Sun to join Buzzfeed in the new year. Robert Colville is doing the same, from the Telegraph.

The Sun have been driving around London with the man from the flags house (van plastered with Sun stickers, posing with todays Sun front page, etc.,) and sent him knocking on ET's front door to ask for an apology. Patently, neither they nor he saw her apologising this morning as she was leaving home – presumably to go to the HoC...

Or rather they did but want to make a H U G E deal out of it.....

(fwiw, she said she was going to the HoC to support Efford's bill against privatisation of the NHS)

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 21 Nov, 2014 4:40 pm

ohsocynical wrote:And also let us not forget. Once upon a time if a minister cocked up, it was instant resignation or dismissal...That's what the honourable in Honourable Member for wherever, is supposed to mean.
The Tories have gradually eroded that principle, so on reflection I actually condone what Ed has done. People are disillusioned seeing what MPs get away with. He is giving us a reminder of how politics should be. It's a shame it had to be Emily, but there can be no exceptions.

I imagine a quiet word has been has along the lines of we will bring you back post election.

As for the Sun - a newspaper that openly calls its readers plebs can fuck off. ET should have the guy arrested for stalking her.