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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 7:29 pm 
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rebeccariots2 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
I wonder if the recent polls in Scotland will actually concentrate minds in a way not entirely to Salmond's liking??

It is one thing to sound off about "Cameron......Tories......so I'm voting yes" when "no" looks certain to win anyway.

But if "the unthinkable" genuinely seems possible, some might actually think hard whether they *really* want to take such an irrevocable step?


I'd like to think you may be right. The irrevocable nature of voting YES is what is hitting me, and probably a lot of others, most hard in these last couple of weeks. There is no turning around in a few months or years time. And what is going on in Europe is less than reassuring at the same time.


I have a feeling the results will vary widely from place to place. It's a fair bet that Dumfriesshire will vote 'no' (they elected the Tory MP and, if I remember correctly, were the only region to vote against devolution). The prospect of losing a large part of the financial industry should mean that Edinburgh will vote 'no'. Similarly, the inevitable loss of defence jobs should swing the votes in any area which depends on them. Helensburgh might be interesting - Faslane must account for a large part of the local economy. Orkney, as a staunch Liberal area, likewise. Perthshire I would guess will be a 'yes' area.
It's the poorer (traditionally Labour-supporting) areas which are the unknowns (imo). Will the voters fall for the "everyone will be richer" rhetoric of the SNP?


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 7:31 pm 
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rebeccariots2 wrote:
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... What do I think of Farage? Well it now seems that he has replaced democracy with his casting couch. Apparently if you fit the bill he will slip you into the position of his choice. Now that Douglas Carswell is Nigel’s bitch, he will perpetually be picking up the political equivalent of prison soap. Trust me on that one...
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/04/nigel-farage-candidate-ukip-clacton-douglas-carswell


Oh, I say ... :shock:


For all his ranting about fair play, could Lord not see how good for Ukip getting an MP would be? And how it had to be kept secret until the last moment? If he really cared so dearly about Ukip wouldn't he have kept quiet and sucked it up? Farage offered him a 'plum seat in Essex', of which there are not a few. And yet he's thrown his toys out of the pram and is in the process of making a fool of himself very publicly. Don't get me wrong, I think it's hilarious. But I'm a little surprised the extent to which the media is indulging him.

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 7:31 pm 
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More bad news for Ed Miliband. Don't know how he copes?

https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/ ... 6383192066


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 7:41 pm 
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James Forsyth is a bit kind to Gove. Carswell defected when he was away and all that.

You don't go on holiday if there's something like a defection on the cards. I'm reminded of that bit in Lock Stock And Two Smoking Barrels, when Frank Harper's gang can't find out who's robbed them. Though Gove probably wouldn't have spotted the defection coming if he'd been thrown through the wall and found Carswell and Farage huddled together the other side.

Can't see how Gove will bring a more domestic focus either. He'll be wanting to sort out the Middle East above anything domestic.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 7:41 pm 
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rebeccariots2 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
I wonder if the recent polls in Scotland will actually concentrate minds in a way not entirely to Salmond's liking??

It is one thing to sound off about "Cameron......Tories......so I'm voting yes" when "no" looks certain to win anyway.

But if "the unthinkable" genuinely seems possible, some might actually think hard whether they *really* want to take such an irrevocable step?


I'd like to think you may be right. The irrevocable nature of voting YES is what is hitting me, and probably a lot of others, most hard in these last couple of weeks. There is no turning around in a few months or years time. And what is going on in Europe is less than reassuring at the same time.


Some people are certainly thinking like that but others are definitely not. FiveLive had a good Scottish audience discussion where the two sides tried to convince undecided voters and were asked some great questions. One undecided voter was asked if he'd been convinced by either side and he said not really but he was thinking about "giving independence a go". I felt like screaming at him. There is no "giving it a go". They won't get to independence for a while and then come back to the UK if they decide they don't like it. If they are out then they are out, permanently.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 7:42 pm 
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RobertSnozers wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Quote:
... What do I think of Farage? Well it now seems that he has replaced democracy with his casting couch. Apparently if you fit the bill he will slip you into the position of his choice. Now that Douglas Carswell is Nigel’s bitch, he will perpetually be picking up the political equivalent of prison soap. Trust me on that one...
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/04/nigel-farage-candidate-ukip-clacton-douglas-carswell


Oh, I say ... :shock:


For all his ranting about fair play, could Lord not see how good for Ukip getting an MP would be? And how it had to be kept secret until the last moment? If he really cared so dearly about Ukip wouldn't he have kept quiet and sucked it up? Farage offered him a 'plum seat in Essex', of which there are not a few. And yet he's thrown his toys out of the pram and is in the process of making a fool of himself very publicly. Don't get me wrong, I think it's hilarious. But I'm a little surprised the extent to which the media is indulging him.


If this is right there may well be a few more Lord's?

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehous ... defectors/


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 7:44 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
James Forsyth is a bit kind to Gove. Carswell defected when he was away and all that.

You don't go on holiday if there's something like a defection on the cards. I'm reminded of that bit in Lock Stock And Two Smoking Barrels, when Frank Harper's gang can't find out who's robbed them. Though Gove probably wouldn't have spotted the defection coming if he'd been thrown through the wall and found Carswell and Farage huddled together the other side.

Can't see how Gove will bring a more domestic focus either. He'll be wanting to sort out the Middle East above anything domestic.


They've all too kind to Gove, he's one of them.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 8:00 pm 
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Not having been too involved with the Scottish referendum debate one thing has struck me:

Tories don't seem to be very involved with the campaign.

I know they're reviled in Scotland, but it's going to rebound badly on them if it's yes.

You'd think they would try to counteract the Dave effect. Unless that is, they really want Scotland to devolve and have some cunning plan for the rest of us?

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 8:12 pm 
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Cameron's also copped it from non-lefty Ian Botham in the very prestigious MCC Spirit of Cricket lecture.

Apparently Beefy went to a reception at Number 10, where Cameron agreed with him on school sports.

He's not done anything since.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 8:16 pm 
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http://www.bracknellnews.co.uk/news/bracknell/articles/2014/08/23/103090-flightpath-experiment-spells-more-noise-overhead/

Flightpath experiment spells more noise overhead

We're used to Jets going over, but 3,000 ft? They've been trying out the flight paths already and last week were roaring across our roof after 11pm and around 5am in the morning.

Glad we're down to move if it's going to be a permanent all day thing. There are going to be some very unhappy VIPs in their posh gaffs. Never mind the Queen lives under the flight path. She has nice thick walls...

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 8:17 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Cameron's also copped it from non-lefty Ian Botham in the very prestigious MCC Spirit of Cricket lecture.

Apparently Beefy went to a reception at Number 10, where Cameron agreed with him on school sports.

He's not done anything since.

Beefy has beef with Beefy?


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 8:25 pm 
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http://academiesweek.co.uk/schools-mini ... this-year/

Postponed Leicester Free School (Sikh) could open later this year.

It's all about these free school people. Not much about the LA helping them out.


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 8:32 pm 
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Is there a "thumbs up" button lurking in the back room? I keep seeing posts I want to acknowledge but don't have anything to add to the discussion, a clicky thumb would fill the gap nicely :)
(I've accidentally almost "reported" a few as the report button is where the old thumb used to be - lol)


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 8:35 pm 
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Briefing paper for Andrew George's Bill tomorrow

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-paper ... ill-201415


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 8:57 pm 
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Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour 15m
Hundreds of foreign reporters left stranded in Nato summit site car park for 2 hours. Worst run summit ever attended. Well done Dave.


Oops, he didn't use G4S did he?

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 9:06 pm 
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Sorry about that, may have broken the forum for a second there. All good now. :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 9:24 pm 
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ohsocynical wrote:
Patrick Wintour ‏@patrickwintour 15m
Hundreds of foreign reporters left stranded in Nato summit site car park for 2 hours. Worst run summit ever attended. Well done Dave.


Oops, he didn't use G4S did he?


Rule 1 - Do not piss off the press, they will slag you off continually if you shaft their transport arrangements (see also The Millennium Dome).

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 9:24 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
Is there a "thumbs up" button lurking in the back room? I keep seeing posts I want to acknowledge but don't have anything to add to the discussion, a clicky thumb would fill the gap nicely :)
(I've accidentally almost "reported" a few as the report button is where the old thumb used to be - lol)

There is now a thumbs up button, to thank for posts. Thanks for pointing it out, I didn't realise it had to be added in. :clap:


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 9:43 pm 
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Quote:
A Tory MP told an autistic man not to comment on public affairs due to his mental health issues.
Insensitive Guto Bebb also dismissed Dylan Barlow’s Asperger’s syndrome as a “sob story” in a series of emails after his constituent raised questions on foreign matters.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/to ... an-4166980
Just so out of order.... :fire: :fire:


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 9:44 pm 
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refitman wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
Is there a "thumbs up" button lurking in the back room? I keep seeing posts I want to acknowledge but don't have anything to add to the discussion, a clicky thumb would fill the gap nicely :)
(I've accidentally almost "reported" a few as the report button is where the old thumb used to be - lol)

There is now a thumbs up button, to thank for posts. Thanks for pointing it out, I didn't realise it had to be added in. :clap:


Yay!!

:hug: :hug: Thanks :)


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PostPosted: Thu 04 Sep, 2014 10:24 pm 
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Eric_WLothian wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:
Dave's said he won't go after a 'yes' vote and Salmond's said he won't go after a 'no' vote - so it seems we're stuck with them both until the relevant elections!

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/david-cameron-vows-not-to-step-down-after-yes-vote-1-3531036

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/alex-salmond-won-t-step-down-in-event-of-no-vote-1-3531594

With regard to the 'devo-max' comments above, I don't see how it could have been a referendum option. Firstly, it has never been defined; secondly, it would have meant extending the referendum to the whole of the UK. Scotland can vote on whether to stay in the club - but it can't vote to change the rules of the club without the consent of all the members.


Hi Eric, to my mind the DM question should have been the 'no' option on the ballot paper. Just as people who'll vote 'yes' aren't voting on a solid set of proposals, the DM/'no' option could be similarly viewed - nowt nailed down but the intention.

I don't believe the current settlement is sustainable for the Scots: if it were then Wee Eck's merry band wouldn't have got the traction they have. The Scots clearly like devolved government, and DM is a far better option than 'no' (ie, no change) and would have committed the UK government to think rather more carefully about the whole issue, as well as enabling pro-Union advocates to point to positive reasons for staying in. It would also shoot the 'yes' campaign's fox regarding negativism.

Just my opinion. It simply frustrates me that Cameron blithely set up a referendum that he was arrogant to assume he'd win without apparently ever giving any thought on how to entice Scots to stay in the UK.


I agree to a certain extent - but the 'no' argument is built on rational arguments, the 'yes' case is largely based on emotion. 'No' doesn't mean no change (the Scotland Act 2012 comes into force next year and will devolve more taxation powers to Holyrood). I would argue that 'no' represents gradual change which can be reversed if it goes pear-shaped. Immediate independence is irreversible.
If it were perfectly balanced, the referendum might say "rank in order of preference (a) independence; (b) Devo-Max; (c) the status quo; (d) scrap Holyrood.

The SNP have managed to make it Scotland vs Tories, which is wrong from two points of view. (1) Cameron and the Tories aren't a permanent fixture at No 10 and (2) 413,000 Scottish voters voted Tory (491,000 voted SNP) at the 2010 GE. It's difficult for the 'no' campaign to put forward a vision of the future when the three main participants only agree on a single issue of continuing the union. Alistair Darling's view of the future of the UK is (I hope) significantly different to Cameron's.

On a lighter note, I recently saw the "more pandas in Edinburgh Zoo than Scottish Tory MPs" jibe countered by "more chimps in Edinburgh Zoo than SNP MPs". :D


It all depends upon whose draw is greater - the economic arguments (with which, I admit, I have sympathy) or the pro independence ones (with which, I admit, I have sympathy).

Were it my house and job, I'd be incredibly cautious. Perhaps that's because I know what it's like to lose both (family experience).

You're right about the questions that should have been asked, but apparently anything other than yes/no would have been too confusing. Hmm...

I suppose you've got to admire the duplicity - as I see it - of the SNP in conflating the pro-Union stance with Toryism. They certainly know how to make friends with the next government of the UK, one way or another, don't they? I wouldn't like to be in Wee Eck's shoes come May 2015.


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PostPosted: Fri 05 Sep, 2014 12:25 am 
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refitman wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
Is there a "thumbs up" button lurking in the back room? I keep seeing posts I want to acknowledge but don't have anything to add to the discussion, a clicky thumb would fill the gap nicely :)
(I've accidentally almost "reported" a few as the report button is where the old thumb used to be - lol)

There is now a thumbs up button, to thank for posts. Thanks for pointing it out, I didn't realise it had to be added in. :clap:


Thankyou :dance: I just went a bit wild with the new button! This new place is great, feels like home, without all the psychic disturbances of our last abode. Thanks to all for making it happen. I'm still mainly guesting, as signing in used to mean turning on Java and inviting in all sorts of annoyances. I read all posts everyday and am still so glad to have a place that seems sane in an increasingly bizarre world.

A quick comment on the referendum issue. The people I see ( not in the msm ) have mainly been hit terribly by the last four years, a lot are struggling, they are now poor or are waiting for the axe that will render them poor, and don't think our political leaders get how bad things really are. They've been following things in other countries, and can see a direction they really don't like, they'd like to be moving towards something better, not worse. They aren't naive or stupid, but they are desperate enough to want a new determination come what may. They know the promises on all sides are unlikely to materialise but they'd still prefer to be able to do things their way, not the English way. They see their parliament already doing things differently, being more representative. Their friends from South of the border, also having it hard, mostly cheer them on, and wish they had the same choice, not to been in daily fear of Westminster. They see it as the only chance of reform they are likely to get, as governments become more repressive, and hope they can avert that in an independent Scotland. I reckon they'll vote yes while they can, because the offer may never come again, and they are ****ed off enough to take their chances.


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PostPosted: Fri 05 Sep, 2014 5:00 am 
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Hi all

Was a late entrant onto the last site, and then had some login problems for this one so had to re-register

Great discussions as always


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