Friday 28th November 2014

Post by **refitman** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 7:57 am

Morning all.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 8:20 am

Morning.

BBC are trotting out 'cash for questions' sleaze-sters like Neil Hamilton & Michael Brown to mouth off about Andrew Mitchell.

Michael Brown got very animated on BBC News channel last night.
He blamed Cameron for Mitchell's outburst, because of the 'Cameroonian' policy [as he called it] on cars for ministers, and then went on to say that Macmillan introduced ministerial cars because a minister ended up having sex in the bushes on his way home.

Rather hilarious reason to support spending tax payer money in times of austerity, because a Tory MP got caught out in a gay sex scandal.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 8:27 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

BBC are trotting out 'cash for questions' sleaze-sters like Neil Hamilton & Michael Brown to mouth off about Andrew Mitchell.

Michael Brown got very animated on BBC News channel last night.
He blamed Cameron for it happening, because of his policy on cars for ministers, and then went on to say that Macmillan introduced ministerial cars because a minister ended up having sex in the bushes on his way home.
Rather hilarious reason to support spending tax payer money in times of austerity, because a Tory MP got caught out in a gay sex scandal.

Morning yahyah. Perhaps Michael Brown should have declared an interest viz gay sex scandals

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 8:38 am

£17bn hole in tax receipts has wrecked deficit-cutting plan, TUC study shows
Union body blames low-wage economy and lack of earnings growth means government is collecting £17bn less than forecast this year
http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... -tuc-study

I want to see this picked up by the MSM and Osborne given a proper questioning about the 'long term economic plan' and how it is clearly not delivering. This tax receipts hole has been so predictable for so long. 17bn FFS.

I know - I want doesn't usually get.

Morning all.

Post by **refitman** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 8:39 am

Labour & Tories tied on Yougov:

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 27th November -

Con 31%, (-2)
Lab 31%, (-1)
LD 8%, (+2)
UKIP 17%; (+1)
Grn 6%; (-1)

APP -28 (-2)

(BTW, the new Yougov site is bloody awful)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 8:40 am

danesclose wrote:
yahyah wrote:Morning.

BBC are trotting out 'cash for questions' sleaze-sters like Neil Hamilton & Michael Brown to mouth off about Andrew Mitchell.

Michael Brown got very animated on BBC News channel last night.
He blamed Cameron for it happening, because of his policy on cars for ministers, and then went on to say that Macmillan introduced ministerial cars because a minister ended up having sex in the bushes on his way home.
Rather hilarious reason to support spending tax payer money in times of austerity, because a Tory MP got caught out in a gay sex scandal.
Morning yahyah. Perhaps Michael Brown should have declared an interest viz gay sex scandals

It must be a complete coincidence just how much murk surrounds some of these people.

Remember the disgraced Tory MP who set up a mens clothes outfitters ?
Think it was the Independent that revealed that some of his 'friends' in the House kindly 'invested' thousands of pounds each in his business.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 8:45 am

Michael Brown was one of the 'investors'.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 45666.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just remembering the final years of the last Tory government.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 8:47 am

yahyah wrote:
danesclose wrote:
yahyah wrote:Morning.

BBC are trotting out 'cash for questions' sleaze-sters like Neil Hamilton & Michael Brown to mouth off about Andrew Mitchell.

Michael Brown got very animated on BBC News channel last night.
He blamed Cameron for it happening, because of his policy on cars for ministers, and then went on to say that Macmillan introduced ministerial cars because a minister ended up having sex in the bushes on his way home.
Rather hilarious reason to support spending tax payer money in times of austerity, because a Tory MP got caught out in a gay sex scandal.
Morning yahyah. Perhaps Michael Brown should have declared an interest viz gay sex scandals

It must be a complete coincidence just how much murk surrounds some of these people.

Remember the disgraced Tory MP who set up a mens clothes outfitters ?
Think it was the Independent that revealed that lots of his 'friends' in the House kindly 'invested' in his business.

Harvey Proctor, who allegedly had a penchant for spanking rent boys.

In June 1986, The People newspaper published claims that Proctor had taken part in spanking and cane beating of male prostitutes, aged between 17 and 21, in his London flat. The age of consent for homosexuals was still 21 in 1986, and the following year Proctor was charged with gross indecency

His shop was bankrolled by the likes of Hesletine, Jeffrey Archer & Neil Hamilton

https://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/201 ... f-horrors/

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 8:56 am

Dave is so delighted to have found a way he can discriminate against foreign workers without breaking the law by stopping tax credits for non British EU workers.

And he will be outraged when honest British 'expats' get treated the same.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 8:59 am

Morning all.

So Cameron's big speech on immigration is going to stop short of calling for limits on people coming in from the EU but will concentrate on restricting benefits.

Given that German court case the other week, couldn't he have done that already?

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 8:59 am

And another chance for the 'mainstream' (i.e. far right) media to host thousands of racist comments today just as they did yesterday and the day before that and the day before that.

Post by **refitman** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 9:04 am

Jonathan Portes piece on Cif is good: The immigration speech David Cameron should be giving

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-targets" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 9:07 am

Some good stuff from Jeremy Corbyn in the Morning Star:

'UKIP hype can't hide right wing agenda
Falling wages, public service cuts and housing are the big issues that Labour must fight the election on.'
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-9a ... ing-agenda" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 9:25 am

yahyah wrote:
...and then went on to say that Macmillan introduced ministerial cars because a minister ended up having sex in the bushes on his way home.
Rather hilarious reason to support spending tax payer money in times of austerity, because a Tory MP got caught out in a gay sex scandal.

Reminds me of the anecdote about Churchill.
One morning one of Churchill's aides told him that the previous night, a (male) Tory minister had been caught cavorting naked with a guardsman in St James' Park. "Wasn't last night the coldest night of the year?" "Yes" said the aide. "Makes you proud to be British" growled Churchill.

Morning all.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 9:26 am

Half-blind widow killed herself after her incapacity benefit was axed because she was fit enough to catch a bus
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... h-bus.html

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 9:29 am

One thing I find myself doing with frustrating regularity on Twitter is defending Wales and in particular the NHS funding. I wonder if we need a troll buster or a feature article on the subject, perhaps from our Wales correspondents.

The argument goes like this.

Labour in Cardiff have cut funding on the NHS whereas the Coalition have increased NHS funding in England.

The reply is of course, but the Coalition cut the Assembly budget. I've seen hard figures that this is a 10% cut in the total real terms budget of Wales over the period 2010-15.

Yes, they say, but Wales chose to cut the NHS whereas the Coalition chose to protect it.

This is the sleight of hand and where I'd welcome some help. What happened of course was that Westminster slashed some of the big budgets where Wales has no authority, like Defence and Justice (affecting Wales too of course!) and took some of that to transfer to the English NHS. So Wales are getting hammered again!

I'm not sure I've read analyses along these lines but would love to have some links, figures etc.

Thanks

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 9:30 am

It comes as mental health beds are being cut in England - figures show more than 2100 have gone since 2011.

The NHS England said spending on mental health was increasing in real terms.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30236927

The usual disconnect between what the government says and the experience on the ground. If mental health spending has increased, why aren't there enough beds? Seems to me either the money has disappeared in bureaucratic waste somehow or demand has gone up. Either way more explanation from the government appears to be required. Were government responses to serious concerns always so woolly?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 9:35 am

Willow904 wrote:
It comes as mental health beds are being cut in England - figures show more than 2100 have gone since 2011.

The NHS England said spending on mental health was increasing in real terms.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30236927

The usual disconnect between what the government says and the experience on the ground. If mental health spending has increased, why aren't there enough beds? Seems to me either the money has disappeared in bureaucratic waste somehow or demand has gone up. Either way more explanation from the government appears to be required. Were government responses to serious concerns always so woolly?

You can see how this can be factually correct. They could have cut the spend in 2011, 2012 and 2013, then started to increase it again in 2014. I don't know if that's the case, but I do recall an announcement on mental health spending relatively recently (from Dave?).

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 9:45 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
It comes as mental health beds are being cut in England - figures show more than 2100 have gone since 2011.

The NHS England said spending on mental health was increasing in real terms.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30236927

The usual disconnect between what the government says and the experience on the ground. If mental health spending has increased, why aren't there enough beds? Seems to me either the money has disappeared in bureaucratic waste somehow or demand has gone up. Either way more explanation from the government appears to be required. Were government responses to serious concerns always so woolly?
You can see how this can be factually correct. They could have cut the spend in 2011, 2012 and 2013, then started to increase it again in 2014. I don't know if that's the case, but I do recall an announcement on mental health spending relatively recently (from Dave?).

Ah. I didn't think of that. But then I'm a straightforward, honest sort of person, so disingenuous sleights of hand don't automatically spring to mind. How a government spokesman could overlook years of cuts and assert a recent increase is the true state of play is beyond me. Karma will catch up with all those who helped this government with its spin one day, the guilt will nag at them, however much they think it won't. Everything we do catches up with us eventually.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 9:52 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
£17bn hole in tax receipts has wrecked deficit-cutting plan, TUC study shows
Union body blames low-wage economy and lack of earnings growth means government is collecting £17bn less than forecast this year
http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... -tuc-study
I want to see this picked up by the MSM and Osborne given a proper questioning about the 'long term economic plan' and how it is clearly not delivering. This tax receipts hole has been so predictable for so long. 17bn FFS.

I know - I want doesn't usually get.

Morning all.

Morning.

I suspect with this one you'll get what you want. That's a great big shortfall & there's nowhere to hide. Government relying on VAT & PAYE income tax (about 80%) while property/land sales, financial speculation & corporate taxes 20% of total makes even ardent capitalists blush at the amateur blatantness of it.

Current government have racked up too many failures putting the hurt on regular people.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 10:20 am

Given all the tory rhetoric against eastern European workers, it is hard to remember that the tories were most in favour of the eastward expansion of the EU just ten years ago. Twenty years before that they bewailed the fate of eastern European people for being forbidden free movement out of their country.

Utterly cynical, as always, they now point their fingers at the very same people because they are enjoying the very freedoms they demanded for them, blaming them for more or less everything and now wanting to impose legal restrictions on their rights, just like they used to get in the bad old days.

But tory money is free to move and no one is questioning that while there are immigrants to blame.

NonOxCol · Post by **NonOxCol** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 10:33 am

Just logged in to say that today is probably not going to provide the best evidence for believing the UK population can resist capitalist propaganda.

Black Friday: of all the things we've taken from the US, this has to be the stinking rotten nadir in every conceivable way.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 10:37 am

Good morning.

Cameron says most EU migrants come to the UK to work.

And let me be clear: the great majority of those who come here from Europe come to work, work hard and pay their taxes. (Andrew Sparrow, Guardian)

So, in a nutshell then "Dave", the main problems are caused by employers paying crap wages (which leads to employees needing to claim things such as tax credits) and the out of control rents, fuelled by greedy buy to let landlords, in the private housing sector. Isn't it your job to sort this stuff out?

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 10:37 am

Britain is attractive to loose capital and migrant workers because, among other things, workers' rights are so weak.

And if you really want to reduce internal EU migration, one of the best ways of doing it would be to tighten employment law, give workers proper rights to tenure etc covered by sectoral agreements to prevent abuses.

If you did that at the same time as insisting on investment funds and full employment for each member state as an EU aim, and if we had the power to tax unused capital and direct it to specific infrastructure, food and energy self-sufficiency projects etc, then migration would almost disappear, because most people do not want to shift from one end of the continent to the other for work. They would rather build their own country.

WelshIan · Post by **WelshIan** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 10:41 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:One thing I find myself doing with frustrating regularity on Twitter is defending Wales and in particular the NHS funding. I wonder if we need a troll buster or a feature article on the subject, perhaps from our Wales correspondents.

The argument goes like this.

Labour in Cardiff have cut funding on the NHS whereas the Coalition have increased NHS funding in England.

The reply is of course, but the Coalition cut the Assembly budget. I've seen hard figures that this is a 10% cut in the total real terms budget of Wales over the period 2010-15.

Yes, they say, but Wales chose to cut the NHS whereas the Coalition chose to protect it.

This is the sleight of hand and where I'd welcome some help. What happened of course was that Westminster slashed some of the big budgets where Wales has no authority, like Defence and Justice (affecting Wales too of course!) and took some of that to transfer to the English NHS. So Wales are getting hammered again!

I'm not sure I've read analyses along these lines but would love to have some links, figures etc.

Thanks

Hi Paul

A few links

This recent article suggests that the cut was to the capital budget rather than day to day budget
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29745559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This article from 2010 confirms that the capital budget was cut rather than expenditure:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-11775213" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This shows all the draft, final, etc budgets for Wales going back to 2011-12:
http://wales.gov.uk/funding/budget/?lang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't find any from earlier than this, sorry.

This confirms that the expenditure budget hasn't been cut (and has actually increased since 2008-09):
http://wales.gov.uk/statistics-and-rese ... s/?lang=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Increases are planned in the future too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-29431502" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No new hospitals, maintenance being stretched but the budget for services to patients has not been cut.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 10:50 am

NonOxCol wrote:Black Friday: of all the things we've taken from the US, this has to be the stinking rotten nadir in every conceivable way.

Be fair, Knots Landing may just have edged it.

But I totally agree, Black Friday is an utter abomination, doesn't help with the media stoking the fire with their "utter carnage" reportage.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 10:54 am

I forgot to mention in my post above that David Cameron is contradicting himself as he swivels on the Ukip skewer. On the one hand he's saying there's no big problem (in that the majority of EU migrants to the UK are hard-working contributors) whilst on the other, they're an enormous drain on resources. Which is it?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:01 am

refitman wrote:Labour & Tories tied on Yougov:

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 27th November -

Con 31%, (-2)
Lab 31%, (-1)
LD 8%, (+2)
UKIP 17%; (+1)
Grn 6%; (-1)

APP -28 (-2)

(BTW, the new Yougov site is bloody awful)

Another low approval rating, but not translating into a Labour lead. Yet.

Post by **adam** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:02 am

PorFavor wrote:I forgot to mention in my post above that David Cameron is contradicting himself as he swivels on the Ukip skewer. On the one hand he's saying there's no big problem (in that the majority of EU migrants to the UK are hard-working contributors) whilst on the other, they're an enormous drain on resources. Which is it?

They're Schrödinger's immigrants!

Is it me or is "Black Friday" on this scale something completely new (and rubbish) to us this year? If the stores insist on trying this on, can they also do the American thing of being banned from starting Christmas until today (or ideally until when Christmas actually starts, on Christmas Eve. After it's got dark.)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:04 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: You can see how this can be factually correct. They could have cut the spend in 2011, 2012 and 2013, then started to increase it again in 2014. I don't know if that's the case, but I do recall an announcement on mental health spending relatively recently (from Dave?).
Ah. I didn't think of that. But then I'm a straightforward, honest sort of person, so disingenuous sleights of hand don't automatically spring to mind. How a government spokesman could overlook years of cuts and assert a recent increase is the true state of play is beyond me. Karma will catch up with all those who helped this government with its spin one day, the guilt will nag at them, however much they think it won't. Everything we do catches up with us eventually.
Careful not to misinterpret data. Number of beds is an indicator of neither quality nor cost. Having said that, there are clearly not enough beds in some sectors and nowhere near enough spend on MH overall, but in the vast majority of cases I'd far rather see people cared for at home or in the community. Only those with the most serious mental ill health need to be in a bed, and intensive community support can be more expensive than hospital beds in some cases.

None of this means the government hasn't made a catastrophic hash of the NHS of course.

If the government spokesman had pointed to other areas of mental health provision where spending had increased with positive results, I wouldn't have made my original complaint of the government's response to serious concerns being woolly. It's the issue of a serious concern always being fobbed off with "spending has gone up" that wound me up. People have committed suicide after a failure to secure a bed. Maybe they would have anyway, but a little explanation as to why fewer beds are being funded, despite an increase of funds, would have shown a little more respect to those concerned about how mental health provision is being handled. I just wondered if government responses have always been so opaquely uninformative, whilst superficially, almost propagandistically, 'positive'

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:14 am

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
NonOxCol wrote:Black Friday: of all the things we've taken from the US, this has to be the stinking rotten nadir in every conceivable way.
Be fair, Knots Landing may just have edged it.

But I totally agree, Black Friday is an utter abomination, doesn't help with the media stoking the fire with their "utter carnage" reportage.

As I posted the other night - in Pub Landlord style.

"Back off Washington and take your dollar filled fanny packs with you*."

* American for bum bag

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:18 am

Slightly off topic, but worth the share. Somebody has started a spoof Simon Danczuk account on Twitter, got him bang to rights in my opinion.

SimonDanczuk @Simon_Danczuk
· 36m 36 minutes ago
Couldn't resist naming Sir Edward Garnier yesterday. Keeps me media bandwagon rolling and me in the limelight.

SimonDanczuk @Simon_Danczuk
· Nov 23
Forget #CameronMustGo I say #MilibandMustGo

https://twitter.com/Simon_Danczuk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:23 am

@Ian thanks for the links will enjoy reading them later - looks like a Troll Buster in the making

@Anatoly - yes I agree with your reading. I think the UK has fallen firmly out of love with the Coalition. But perhaps currently this is mainly to the benefit of UKIP, Greens, SNP….. rather than Labour. My hope as a Labour supporter is that many of those voters will have liked sufficiently what they've heard from Labour over the next 6 months to at least lend Labour their vote to get rid of this disastrous Coalition.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:31 am

Re: Black Friday.

I think the first time last year was at Asda which is owned by American company Walmart.

It's on the day after Thanksgiving [a non gift giving event] in the US, and has been used to get Americans up and spending for Christmas for a long time.
It's a bit like our January sales used to be years ago only more manic.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:36 am

Interesting parody account (or is it real.....?)

The 'Ukip' Twitter account so offensive even Ukip are disowning it

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/t ... g1ehnBND_e" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:46 am

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
· 38m 38 minutes ago
LAB up to 37% with Populus online
Lab 37 (+1) Con 32 (+1) LD 9 (nc) UKIP 14 (-1)

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:47 am

AngryAsWell wrote:Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB
· 38m 38 minutes ago
LAB up to 37% with Populus online
Lab 37 (+1) Con 32 (+1) LD 9 (nc) UKIP 14 (-1)

Christ, won't somebody please think of the weighted moving average.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:53 am

ohsocynical wrote:Re: Black Friday.

I think the first time last year was at Asda which is owned by American company Walmart.

It's on the day after Thanksgiving [a non gift giving event] in the US, and has been used to get Americans up and spending for Christmas for a long time.
It's a bit like our January sales used to be year ago only more manic.

In the dim & distant past, when I used to work in Harrods Book Department, we were next door to Radio & TV. They always used to start the sale off with a few items reduced to ridiculously low prices, to draw people in; on a number of occasions I witnessed people involved in a punch up over one of these 'bargains' - I thought it a poor reflection on the venality of sections of our society then, and these scenes today suggest nothing has changed. Deeply saddening.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:53 am

NonOxCol wrote:Just logged in to say that today is probably not going to provide the best evidence for believing the UK population can resist capitalist propaganda.

Black Friday: of all the things we've taken from the US, this has to be the stinking rotten nadir in every conceivable way.

I dropped my jaw when I first saw the signs here.

For chrissake - "Black Friday" is the day following Thanksgiving Thursday - Thanksgiving - USA - tradition has it the people living on what is now known as the North American continent for generations assisted newly arrived colonists to the area by sharing food with them. I think it was Abraham Lincoln, US President, 1860's roughly, who'd decided to make a holiday in honour of that apocryphal event.

Retailer accounts are in the red all year until Black Friday arrives in late November. That may be true of smaller establishments but I sincerely doubt many multi-national sellers of stuff require this day of consumer spending to carry on.

Margaret Thatcher - Thursday, 22 November 1990 (Thanksgiving Day in the US) - resigned as Prime Minister of the UK - for this, we are truly grateful.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 11:55 am

Just hearing on BBC News24 that, a year on, some Somerset flood victims are still unable to return to their homes. I was wondering just the other day how things were going there.

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 12:00 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Slightly off topic, but worth the share. Somebody has started a spoof Simon Danczuk account on Twitter, got him bang to rights in my opinion.

SimonDanczuk @Simon_Danczuk
· 36m 36 minutes ago
Couldn't resist naming Sir Edward Garnier yesterday. Keeps me media bandwagon rolling and me in the limelight.

SimonDanczuk @Simon_Danczuk
· Nov 23
Forget #CameronMustGo I say #MilibandMustGo
https://twitter.com/Simon_Danczuk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Simon Danczuk = Daily Mail. "Stop all these foreigners coming over and looking at my wife's tits; see below"

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 12:00 pm

mikems wrote:Britain is attractive to loose capital and migrant workers because, among other things, workers' rights are so weak.

And if you really want to reduce internal EU migration, one of the best ways of doing it would be to tighten employment law, give workers proper rights to tenure etc covered by sectoral agreements to prevent abuses.

If you did that at the same time as insisting on investment funds and full employment for each member state as an EU aim, and if we had the power to tax unused capital and direct it to specific infrastructure, food and energy self-sufficiency projects etc, then migration would almost disappear, because most people do not want to shift from one end of the continent to the other for work. They would rather build their own country.

Bravo. Well said.

Post by **refitman** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 12:04 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
adam wrote:
PorFavor wrote:I forgot to mention in my post above that David Cameron is contradicting himself as he swivels on the Ukip skewer. On the one hand he's saying there's no big problem (in that the majority of EU migrants to the UK are hard-working contributors) whilst on the other, they're an enormous drain on resources. Which is it?
They're Schrödinger's immigrants!

Is it me or is "Black Friday" on this scale something completely new (and rubbish) to us this year? If the stores insist on trying this on, can they also do the American thing of being banned from starting Christmas until today (or ideally until when Christmas actually starts, on Christmas Eve. After it's got dark.)
That's been one of my bugbears for many years. Christmas is a 12-day festival that starts on the 25th. It doesn't start to gather momentum in October and cut off after tea on Boxing Day. Little depresses me more than having to go back to work well before 12th Night already thoroughly sick of everything festive. I'm not a practising Christian - just 'culturally CofE'. In my house, Christmas doesn't start until the first playing of Fairytale of New York on 7" vinyl. I'm old fashioned like that.

Try working in retail. We start thinking about Christmas in March!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 12:06 pm

Populus has the Labour figure at its highest in any poll since the Tory conference.

Whereas today's YouGov has its lowest Labour score since summer 2010 (and lowest combined Labour/Tory total *ever*)

Hmmm......

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 12:06 pm

refitman wrote:Jonathan Portes piece on Cif is good: The immigration speech David Cameron should be giving

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... on-targets" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A few very fine commentators getting verbally abused & personally denigrated in responses from who knows who below the line. I'm sometimes able to remain objective & read the abusive posts as sociologically examples of bullying.

PeterGuillam (G contributor) made an excellent post.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 12:09 pm

Some good news for anti-UKIPpers and Labour supporters

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 12:11 pm

refitman wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote: That's been one of my bugbears for many years. Christmas is a 12-day festival that starts on the 25th. It doesn't start to gather momentum in October and cut off after tea on Boxing Day. Little depresses me more than having to go back to work well before 12th Night already thoroughly sick of everything festive. I'm not a practising Christian - just 'culturally CofE'. In my house, Christmas doesn't start until the first playing of Fairytale of New York on 7" vinyl. I'm old fashioned like that.
Try working in retail. We start thinking about Christmas in March!

Absolutely!
Boxing Day is when the Easter Eggs go on sale

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 12:13 pm

Asda exposed as supermarket with 'dirtiest' chicken
Supermarkets are named and shamed as study finds seven in ten chickens contain a potentially deadly bacteria called campylobacter, with Asda closely followed by Co-op, Waitrose and Morrisons

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shoppin ... icken.html

So - if you miss out on a bargain TV, just don't buy the chicken.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 12:15 pm

mikems wrote:Britain is attractive to loose capital and migrant workers because, among other things, workers' rights are so weak.

And if you really want to reduce internal EU migration, one of the best ways of doing it would be to tighten employment law, give workers proper rights to tenure etc covered by sectoral agreements to prevent abuses.

If you did that at the same time as insisting on investment funds and full employment for each member state as an EU aim, and if we had the power to tax unused capital and direct it to specific infrastructure, food and energy self-sufficiency projects etc, then migration would almost disappear, because most people do not want to shift from one end of the continent to the other for work. They would rather build their own country.

Well said!

Do you suppose the thought has ever crossed the man's mind? I'm in earnest. Do any in government know the primary responsibility is from leadership? Who are behind the necessity, or more pleasantly, the promise of better things in other places, instigating the movement of regular people all over? That is, with leaders, employers & powerful people.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Fri 28 Nov, 2014 12:16 pm

refitman wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
adam wrote: They're Schrödinger's immigrants!

Is it me or is "Black Friday" on this scale something completely new (and rubbish) to us this year? If the stores insist on trying this on, can they also do the American thing of being banned from starting Christmas until today (or ideally until when Christmas actually starts, on Christmas Eve. After it's got dark.)
That's been one of my bugbears for many years. Christmas is a 12-day festival that starts on the 25th. It doesn't start to gather momentum in October and cut off after tea on Boxing Day. Little depresses me more than having to go back to work well before 12th Night already thoroughly sick of everything festive. I'm not a practising Christian - just 'culturally CofE'. In my house, Christmas doesn't start until the first playing of Fairytale of New York on 7" vinyl. I'm old fashioned like that.
Try working in retail. We start thinking about Christmas in March!

Ooh, I remember those days, and not with affection either. You have my sympathy.