Wednesday 17th December 2014

Post by **refitman** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 7:43 am

Morning all, Labour lead at 1 point on Yougov:

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 16th December -

Con 33%, (+1)
Lab 34%, (nc)
LD 6%, (nc)
UKIP 16%; (+2)
Grn 6%, (-2)

APP -24 (nc)

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 8:39 am

Morning.

Clegg seems to think people tweeting is an opinion poll.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-best-opi ... 43789.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 8:39 am

Morning all.

Order for new trains could have left taxpayers ‘badly ripped off’, say MPs
Public accounts committee says Department for Transport put public money at risk and sowed confusion in rail industry
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... sport-rail
...Margaret Hodge, who chairs the committee, said the department’s decision to buy the trains itself had left the taxpayer bearing all the risk.

“The department has no previous experience of running a procurement of this kind, let alone two with a combined value of £10.5bn,” she said.

“Yet it has chosen to break with its previous approach of leaving it to rolling stock companies and train operators to buy trains, transferring risk away from the rail industry back to government. If passenger forecasts are wrong and fewer new trains are needed, taxpayers will have to pick up the bill.

“The only way the department can limit this risk is by requiring train operating companies to use these new trains to run their services regardless of whether they best fit the services they would like to offer.

ConDems more trusted with the economy, eh? Why - when they seem to hate the state so much - have they tried to muscle in and run so many things centrally from Whitehall departments - with inevitably poor results?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 8:47 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Clegg seems to think people tweeting is an opinion poll.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-best-opi ... 43789.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you watched it yahyah, (I put myself through it .... god knows why), he was clearly grateful not to be massacred alive and that people were even bothering to tweet in. That said - his were the lowest approval tweets of all the leaders so far. And his 'best opinion poll I've seen in a long time' was a nervy laugh response ... it wasn't a good outcome. For a while afterwards I watched #LeaderLive timeline ... and it was pretty negligible ... a few Lib Dem supporters trying to boost the activity and positive response (Caron Lindsay among them ... and I wouldn't have thought she still qualifies as a young person) and a few telling Clegg and the Lib Dems where to get off. Very little interest in comparison with the other debates. The lack of comments on the LibDemVoice article x 2 about the debate ... says the same. Clegg drank a lot of water, an awful lot ... as though his throat was really really dry.

Post by **refitman** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 8:53 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
yahyah wrote:Morning.

Clegg seems to think people tweeting is an opinion poll.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-best-opi ... 43789.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you watched it yahyah, (I put myself through it .... god knows why), he was clearly grateful not to be massacred alive and that people were even bothering to tweet in. That said - his were the lowest approval tweets of all the leaders so far. And his 'best opinion poll I've seen in a long time' was a nervy laugh response ... it wasn't a good outcome. For a while afterwards I watched #LeaderLive timeline ... and it was pretty negligible ... a few Lib Dem supporters trying to boost the activity and positive response (Caron Lindsay among them ... and I wouldn't have thought she still qualifies as a young person) and a few telling Clegg and the Lib Dems where to get off. Very little interest in comparison with the other debates. The lack of comments on the LibDemVoice article x 2 about the debate ... says the same. Clegg drank a lot of water, an awful lot ... as though his throat was really really dry.

The BTL on LDV aren't convinced by Caron's article.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 8:55 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Clegg seems to think people tweeting is an opinion poll.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-best-opi ... 43789.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Morning Yah Yah (and morning all

)

Excellent - he'll be along later then to explain these opinion polls #cameronmustgo #cameronout #toriesout #condemnation ...no? Thought not

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 8:55 am

Just announced that News Corp UK made a £3.5m loss [down from £51m profit last year].

Happy Christmas Rupert.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 9:03 am

Missing - the 50,000 jobless teens who have dropped off the radar
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 29501.html

... Richard Brooks, the former director of strategy at the schools inspectorate Ofsted who carried out the research, said: “Over the course of this parliament the quality of local data on these young people has broken down completely. We are massively understating the scale of the problem at local level where it matters the most, and depriving many young people who are out of sight of the help and support they need.”

In a pamphlet published by the Labour-affiliated Fabian Society, Mr Brooks said the official figures are “disastrously wrong”. When councils compile statistics on what young people leaving education do next, they assume that one in eight of those with an “unknown” destination is a Neet. His research found the real figure is between one in three and one in two...

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 9:06 am

Morning Wolfie.

Have you read Hack Attack by Nick Davies ?
I finally read it after finding it at the library recently.

What was missing, apart from a brief mention, was the Osborne connection to HeWhoMustNotBeNamed, despite there being much in the media a year or two back, including Brooks herself saying who influenced HWMNBN getting a high profile job that ended up so close to government.

Wondered why Davies left it out, maybe waiting for after the result of the Scottish trial ?
Can't believe all the political shenanigans have been explained.

edited to add: Sorry if that sounds even more mangled than usual, am trying to edge round being too direct.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 9:08 am

Nigel Farage: Ukip’s one-man band plays on
During the last general election Ukip was very much the Nigel Farage show. Nothing’s really changed this time around
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... l-election

Worth it for this alone!

... Most Ukip members still reach the apex of their public profile upon being expelled from the party, or leaving to form another, weirder party (Veritas, One London, We Demand a Referendum, New Deal and the British Freedom Party were all founded by disgruntled Ukippers).

They can’t even claim a hint of political competence: selectors for the Basildon constituency were left with a choice between a previously deselected bigot and Neil Hamilton – and now they have neither. Its highest placed politicians are two guys who were both Tories last summer...

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 9:10 am

OK - rant warning....Kellner/Yougov - wheeled out by Newslight on Monday night, to reassure us all that all the talk of Gidiots cuts post election we definitely are NOT heading back to the 1930s' - it's all just a nasty rumour made up by the LoonyLeftyTrotskyistOBRIFSeveryothernonCondemnationeconomistpeoplewhocanthinkforthemselves who just don't understand the 'difficult decisions'.

Full denial of rickets at 24m 20s (approx)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04v4j2p

...so I assume this is just another conspiracy theory then, from the vice president for policy at the UK's Faculty of Public Health...

: bltl01.PNG (8.25 KiB) Viewed 18822 times

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 35784.html

Have been trying to fit links and comment into twitter but proving difficult in under 140 characters! (I'll get there

)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 9:12 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Nigel Farage: Ukip’s one-man band plays on
During the last general election Ukip was very much the Nigel Farage show. Nothing’s really changed this time around
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... l-election
Worth it for this alone!
... Most Ukip members still reach the apex of their public profile upon being expelled from the party, or leaving to form another, weirder party (Veritas, One London, We Demand a Referendum, New Deal and the British Freedom Party were all founded by disgruntled Ukippers).

They can’t even claim a hint of political competence: selectors for the Basildon constituency were left with a choice between a previously deselected bigot and Neil Hamilton – and now they have neither. Its highest placed politicians are two guys who were both Tories last summer...

I've just pointed out that their website is the clearest example of this and got this reply...

BarleyGB RogerOThornhill
17 December 2014 8:56am

Recommend
3
Does the labour website tell you that the unions pull their stings, does it mention their biggest donor is a tax avoiding millionaire, does it apologise for the deficit and uncontrolled migration.

Oh look, a squirrel!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 9:14 am

Morning all.

You know that 'Weird' looking Miliband? He's no friend of Israel according to Cameron. http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/12685 ... ehood-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 9:21 am

yahyah wrote:Morning Wolfie.

Have you read Hack Attack by Nick Davies ?
I finally read it after finding it at the library recently.

What was missing, apart from a brief mention, was the Osborne connection to HeWhoMustNotBeNamed, despite there being much in the media a year or two back, including Brooks herself saying who influenced HWMNBN getting a high profile job that ended up so close to government.

Wondered why Davies left it out, maybe waiting for after the result of the Scottish trial ?
Can't believe all the political shenanigans have been explained.

edited to add: Sorry if that sounds even more mangled than usual, am trying to edge round being too direct.

Not yet...or Peter Jukes 'Beyond Contempt'...have read excerpts though...and I might wait until they update them - I'm fairly sure there are more chapters in this story....picked this up from Press Gazette...someone else seems to have noticed the perverse irony of a company investigating itself for wrongdoing...

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/sun-journ ... or-figures

...and apropos of nothing else...It seems I might be 'frightening' to Uncle Rupert

: imftwt0204.PNG (85.45 KiB) Viewed 18804 times

To be clear - I'm not trivialising the actions of an obviously troubled individual or the suffering of the victims families/friends...but after so many years of Murkydochian 'false flags' it did make me smile a bit.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 9:22 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

You know that 'Weird' looking Miliband? He's no friend of Israel according to Cameron. http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/12685 ... ehood-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Part of Mr Cameron's 20-minute speech also focused on his visit last week to Auschwitz.
He said the experience had shown him the "horrific enormity" of what happened during the Shoah.

Ah, makes sense now...and there was me thinking it was just to get out of PMQs...

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 9:38 am

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9265426c-7594 ... z3M96WWonX

Morning folks,

This is an interesting article about how the Bolivian economy is booming, largely because of a redistributive approach to economics. Obviously more to it, but it shows what acn happen when rdinary folk have money and confidence.
(you can register free at the FT)

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 9:46 am

StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

You know that 'Weird' looking Miliband? He's no friend of Israel according to Cameron. http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/12685 ... ehood-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There really are no limits to the depth depths this weasel will plumb, are there?

Part of Mr Cameron's 20-minute speech also focused on his visit last week to Auschwitz.
He said the experience had shown him the "horrific enormity" of what happened during the Shoah.

@Rog, something Miliband knows, of course, at a visceral level. At a time when his own Government is descending to tactics that have something of a resonance with Nazi Germany, to use that as a political point scoring is beneath contempt.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 10:04 am

yahyah wrote:Morning.

Clegg seems to think people tweeting is an opinion poll.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-best-opi ... 43789.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wonder if Caron, surely one of the most brain washed, happy clappy bloggers out there will give such a positive write up when the Lib Dems vote against todays bedroom tax vote.

They are lower than an adders testicles, wipe out is only what they deserve.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 10:09 am

55DegreesNorth wrote:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9265426c-7594 ... z3M96WWonX

Morning folks,

This is an interesting article about how the Bolivian economy is booming, largely because of a redistributive approach to economics. Obviously more to it, but it shows what acn happen when rdinary folk have money and confidence.
(you can register free at the FT)

...leading to the unused headline, 'Bolivians stick with Evo'...I'll get my coat

...and of course, the actual 'Great British Public' ain't so different...it's just the Thatcherite-Raygunite-Murkydochian bag-men (and women)...

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdo ... rest-of-us

'A huge gap has opened up between what the electorate wants—public services run for people, not profit—and what politicians are willing to offer. Privatisation has become the lazy default rather than a conscious choice, and represents the opposite of evidence-based policy making.'

...and hasn't Mr Ed mentioned 'pre-distribution' or some such thing?

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 10:56 am

Never mind, at least unemployment is falling:

http://www.thejournal.co.uk/devastating ... le-8289741

Oops.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:01 am

BBC Politics ‏@BBCPolitics 11s12 seconds ago
Jobless figures in Wales rise by 8,000, which is the greatest increase in unemployment throughout the UK. http://bbc.in/1zrqX20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who was it writing yesterday about the booming Welsh economy?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:07 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:BBC Politics ‏@BBCPolitics 11s12 seconds ago
Jobless figures in Wales rise by 8,000, which is the greatest increase in unemployment throughout the UK. http://bbc.in/1zrqX20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Who was it writing yesterday about the booming Welsh economy?

Some bloke on the Telegraph, about year old figures.

Welsh Labour's fault, these new figures. The previous good ones were down to George Osborne.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:10 am

I've been searching for some sensible commentary on the potential effects of the crash in oil prices and the knock on potentially significant impact on the Russian economy.

Having failed to find much of use at home I went to the New York Times

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/12/16/ ... ial-system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One comment that will be of interest and relief to folk here is that some of the companies most at risk from the plunging oil price are the fracking companies. It may well be that, for the near future at least, fracking is no longer economically viable.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:14 am

RobertSnozers wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:Morning all.

You know that 'Weird' looking Miliband? He's no friend of Israel according to Cameron. http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/12685 ... ehood-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There really are no limits to the depth depths this weasel will plumb, are there?

Part of Mr Cameron's 20-minute speech also focused on his visit last week to Auschwitz.
He said the experience had shown him the "horrific enormity" of what happened during the Shoah.
@Rog, something Miliband knows, of course, at a visceral level. At a time when his own Government is descending to tactics that have something of a resonance with Nazi Germany, to use that as a political point scoring is beneath contempt.
I've now seen Miliband attacked by the right for a) meeting Netanyahu and saying supportive things about Israel but then what can you expect with his background? and b) unilaterally recognising the Palestinan state and being anti Israel therefore betraying his race and how can you trust someone who would do that well he stabbed his brother in the back didn't he? etc etc

Ah yes, the "Zionist" (or even "Zionazi") epithet is used against Miliband by a particularly unlovely alliance of far "left" and far right.

At the same time you get the likes of Maureen Lipman (who Cameron seems to have channelled today)

Maybe shows he has got his position about right?

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:25 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I've been searching for some sensible commentary on the potential effects of the crash in oil prices and the knock on potentially significant impact on the Russian economy.

Having failed to find much of use at home I went to the New York Times

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/12/16/ ... ial-system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One comment that will be of interest and relief to folk here is that some of the companies most at risk from the plunging oil price are the fracking companies. It may well be that, for the near future at least, fracking is no longer economically viable.

It's a depressing fact that no British paper comes near some of the US ones, most here are now nothing more than propaganda sheets, peddling it's owners agendas and whims. As for the columnists, you are more likely to find those who come close to Paul Krugman as independent bloggers, I cannot remember last time I bought one, apart from passing time on a train journey. Saves me a few quid I suppose?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/15/opini ... ul-krugman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:35 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:Morning all.

Order for new trains could have left taxpayers ‘badly ripped off’, say MPs
Public accounts committee says Department for Transport put public money at risk and sowed confusion in rail industry
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... sport-rail
...Margaret Hodge, who chairs the committee, said the department’s decision to buy the trains itself had left the taxpayer bearing all the risk.

“The department has no previous experience of running a procurement of this kind, let alone two with a combined value of £10.5bn,” she said.

“Yet it has chosen to break with its previous approach of leaving it to rolling stock companies and train operators to buy trains, transferring risk away from the rail industry back to government. If passenger forecasts are wrong and fewer new trains are needed, taxpayers will have to pick up the bill.

“The only way the department can limit this risk is by requiring train operating companies to use these new trains to run their services regardless of whether they best fit the services they would like to offer.
ConDems more trusted with the economy, eh? Why - when they seem to hate the state so much - have they tried to muscle in and run so many things centrally from Whitehall departments - with inevitably poor results?

(my bold)

People who have a lot of money are thought best placed to be entrusted with more. The Tories are the party of rich people. Getting born with a large trust fund attached, inheriting money, titles, marrying into wealth don't take any particular skill at all - not even marrying it - it's all chance, generally speaking. I need to make one thing clear, Tories don't share, they are most often made to cooperate when they rightly recognise it's in their best interests to do so. It's not in the best interests of regular people to trust government or anything else they care about to Tories. Tory governments crash their party dresses & the nation. Tories leave despair in their wake.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:38 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote: There really are no limits to the depth depths this weasel will plumb, are there?
@Rog, something Miliband knows, of course, at a visceral level. At a time when his own Government is descending to tactics that have something of a resonance with Nazi Germany, to use that as a political point scoring is beneath contempt.
I've now seen Miliband attacked by the right for a) meeting Netanyahu and saying supportive things about Israel but then what can you expect with his background? and b) unilaterally recognising the Palestinan state and being anti Israel therefore betraying his race and how can you trust someone who would do that well he stabbed his brother in the back didn't he? etc etc
Ah yes, the "Zionist" (or even "Zionazi") epithet is used against Miliband by a particularly unlovely alliance of far "left" and far right.

At the same time you get the likes of Maureen Lipman (who Cameron seems to have channelled today)

Maybe shows he has got his position about right?

Obviously, I'm aware of the Nazis who talk about Zionism, but is there another word I can use to describe strong pro-Israel sentiment? I suppose now I can just say pro-Israel, though Israel might change in the future.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:42 am

I don't agree with that Anatoly. The word 'Zionist' has a real political meaning. The far-right abuse the term to attack Jews. The left use it to describe the expansionist policy of the Israeli state, based on the racist and imperialist ideology of Zioinism.

In fact this term has only really become contentious after the UK's historical switch from supporting the rights of Palestine to whole-hearted support for anything Israel may wish to do to them, on the lawn in front of the White House by Tony Blair. Until then, there was no such abuse of the term, not in the way that has become so widespread now. But of course, at the same time, and for the same reasons - support for the war against Iraq which reinforced Israeli miltary domination of the region by getting rid of a potential threat - Zionists themselves have been trying to confuse the issue by accusing left-wingers of being motivated by hatred of Jews, not hatred of war, ooppression and occupation.

Unless you know of any evidence or socialists being motivated by racist hatreds and using the word zionist in a deliberately racist way, that is.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:44 am

I posted yesterday about an SPTA school which was a converter and which had gone into special measures...well...apparently Ofsted inspected 3 SPTA schools at the same time...and the second one I've seen is in the same position.

Melior Community Academy was given to SPTA in January 2013 when it was graded 4 and in special measures as of the previous month.

Inspected in Sept and still in special measures but although it's the same school as before you wouldn't know that since it makes no references to its previous grade when it was a LA school.

In the report...

Over time, the sponsors of the academy have not checked the work of the academy well enough to see whether students were underachieving. However, since September 2014 they have acted swiftly to provide support for the academy. They have appointed an interim Principal and a new Principal for the academy. They have put in place specialist support for new leaders and are supporting the professional development of teachers.

There you go...run the school since Jan 2013 and have only just woken up to the fact that the school was failing and they needed to do something about it.

the weird thing is that they had a s.8 inspection in April which said of the HT:

The Principal provides strong leadership and communicates high aspirations and clear aims for the academy very effectively. She is very well supported by governors

Yep, she was so good she got booted out before September...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:51 am

letsskiptotheleft wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I've been searching for some sensible commentary on the potential effects of the crash in oil prices and the knock on potentially significant impact on the Russian economy.

Having failed to find much of use at home I went to the New York Times

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/12/16/ ... ial-system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One comment that will be of interest and relief to folk here is that some of the companies most at risk from the plunging oil price are the fracking companies. It may well be that, for the near future at least, fracking is no longer economically viable.
It's a depressing fact that no British paper comes near some of the US ones, most here are now nothing more than propaganda sheets, peddling it's owners agendas and whims. As for the columnists, you are more likely to find those who come close to Paul Krugman as independent bloggers, I cannot remember last time I bought one, apart from passing time on a train journey. Saves me a few quid I suppose?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/15/opini ... ul-krugman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting conversation here - when I lived in the USA a few years ago, I didn't trust the information in US news - online or paper. I went further afield & started reading the Guardian regularly.

I've come home to the UK & I see with my own eyes what gets reported is often contradicted in reality. It depends though - I have to read critically & check other sources, not other news sources but the National Audit Office or the ONS, EuropaEU, exc...those sources aren't unimpeachable but knitting the information together it's possible to find out what's really going on.

It's necessary to find news from a source with no horses in the race, an article written by an author who's nationality or property portfolio are genuinely not their primary concern. It's possible to find people who're prepared to hand down the truth - we know those people are out there or we'd not be treated to trolling nonsense below the article's line telling us we're not to trust the person writing above it because of their mythological villa in foreign climates or some similar bullshit.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:53 am

Those charmers Liam Fox and Owen Patterson have been giving speeches to a Tory fringe group called The London Swinton Circle who've published all manner of delightful articles on their website, including:

How mass repatriation to Africa could be justified
How child abuse has become a "business" for immigrants
How Black Britons are "colonists" seeking to destroy the British identity
How “without a husband a woman is but a sexual object to be shared around”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... mmigration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Presumably they're both looking to shore up support from the crazy brigade of the party in preparation for any leadership bid.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 11:54 am

Tubby,

I understand what you mean by 'pro-Israel' but that doesn't really describe the nature of the political project behind the occupation. Why wouldn't any sensible and decent person be 'pro-Israel'? Also if you aren't 'pro-Israel' you must be 'anti-Israel', which is not right either.

I think the left's language can be problematical - we know what we mean and can become defensive and worried when we are confronted with unfair accusations - honest people tend to be wrong-footed by simple deception and lies, but that is what we are going to get come what may, so we may as well promote clarity of language.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 12:09 pm

Re Ed Milliband and the Israel debate, I've wondered for a while now whether some of the constant criticism of Ed (especially from within the Labour party) is due to his far more positive view of an independent Palestinian state. The seemingly unchangable slavish support for Israel that has been the basis of our foreign policy for about twenty years looks likely to be challenged by any Miliband led government, and I wonder if that thought of that is giving some of Israel's more hawkish supporters the willies.

In a way Ed Miliband is the ultimate nightmare Prime Minister for those who demand constant unctitical support of Israel, a secular Liberal Jew, born of survivors from the Holocaust, who has a deep personal understanding of the horrors of that period, but who is also willing to speak up against Israel's unjustified treatment of the Palestinians. The usual smears of anti-semitism or lack of understanding that political leaders who persue justice for the Palestinians tend to be attacked with are clearly not going to work against Ed Miliband, and I think some people may be finding that a bit too alarming a prospect to countenance.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 12:23 pm

Tish wrote:Those charmers Liam Fox and Owen Patterson have been giving speeches to a Tory fringe group called The London Swinton Circle who've published all manner of delightful articles on their website, including:

How mass repatriation to Africa could be justified
How child abuse has become a "business" for immigrants
How Black Britons are "colonists" seeking to destroy the British identity
How “without a husband a woman is but a sexual object to be shared around”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... mmigration" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Presumably they're both looking to shore up support from the crazy brigade of the party in preparation for any leadership bid.

Not forgetting that a single woman is a sexual object to passed around!

Christ, you only have to scratch below the surface and find links between Tories and associations and clubs like that, they never fail do they, wonder when Philip Davies is giving a star turn?

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 12:28 pm

Why does Carswell get a q at PMQs every week?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 12:32 pm

"Zionist" is a perfectly legitimate term and I would never imply otherwise.

The problem is that SOME people (many on the political extremes, as said) use it as a not terribly subtle euphemism for "Jew".

(particularly when buying into the old anti-Semitic tropes about "control" and so on - and yes, some purportedly far-left people do this as well)

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 12:41 pm

@BBCWorldatOne
Tweets: "Joining @Marthakearney for the last #wato #PMQs panel of 2014: @EstherMcVeyMP, @JeremyBrowneMP and @TristramHuntMP"

Shall we play count the interruptions game?

DonutHingeParty · Post by **DonutHingeParty** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 12:44 pm

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-estim ... index.html

•The population of the UK grew to 64.1 million in mid-2013, representing a gain of 400,600 (0.63%) over the previous year mid-2012. This growth is slightly below the average since 2003.

•This means that the UK’s population has increased by around 5 million since 2001, and by more than 10 million since 1964.

So by dropping welfare to 2002 levels, with an increasing population that's actually a 7% cut.

Naughty Cameron.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 12:45 pm

Rather than being an unholy alliance between the left and far-right, what we have seen is an unholy alliance betwen Zionists and anti-semites (and Blairites) to attack Muslims... and the left with false accusations of anti-semitism when arguing for Palestine, or supporting Saddam or Assad, or whoever, when it comes to opposing imperialist adventures.

Fundamentally, Zionism itself is racist and has the same roots as other nationalist causes in the 19th century. It is kissing cousin to the far-right and always has been. Hence the continued racially based oppression and apartheid. The tragedy of our age is that the supposed centre shifted to support it, more or less as a convenient expedient...until now and Miliband's change of stance and a return to sense.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 12:54 pm

frightful_oik wrote:Why does Carswell get a q at PMQs every week?

Do all the minority parties get at least one question? I remember that Clegg always used to get a question every week, back when he was in oppostion. I suppose Carswell is the de-facto leader of UKIP in the Commons, until the terrible day that Farage joins them (I imagine that Reckless in banned from asking questions, seeing as everytime he opens his mouth he just reminds everybody what a fuckwit he is).

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 12:57 pm

I haven't looked at the PMQs write up by AS or any others yet. But I'm guessing these tweets probably tell me all I need to know.

Ed Miliband ‏@Ed_Miliband 19m19 minutes ago
David Cameron has given up on compassionate conservatism. He’s not cutting vital public services because he has to but because he wants to.

Albert Owen MP ‏@AlbertOwenMP 19m19 minutes ago
Very smug Prime Minister today at #pmqs
he did not rule out VAT rise if re-elected

Oh and this one ... editing to add:

Chris Bryant retweeted
Tim Montgomerie ن ‏@montie 46m46 minutes ago
Cameron not being prime ministerial calling Miliband "complete waste of space". Shld leave the personal insults to the likes of Farage #PMQs

Now I really have got the full picture. A blustering, ham and puce faced Cameron ... swinging wildly because he hasn't got real responses.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 1:01 pm

Tish wrote:
frightful_oik wrote:Why does Carswell get a q at PMQs every week?
Do all the minority parties get at least one question? I remember that Clegg always used to get a question every week, back when he was in oppostion. I suppose Carswell is the de-facto leader of UKIP in the Commons,

On that basis wouldn't Caroline Lucas get a question every week?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 1:02 pm

mikems wrote:what we have seen is an unholy alliance betwen Zionists and anti-semites (and Blairites) to attack Muslims... and the left with false accusations of anti-semitism when arguing for Palestine, or supporting Saddam or Assad, or whoever, when it comes to opposing imperialist adventures

Yes, we have seen some of that as well. The two things aren't mutually exclusive you know.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 1:04 pm

Guardian front page showing latest ICM Poll - Labour 5 points ahead. Rusbridger, Wintour & Watt must be on holiday

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ead-tories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 1:06 pm

Shame that poll is spoiled by a genuine comedy score of 14% for the LibDems

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 1:09 pm

Just visited our local food bank to deliver some goods. They were fantastically welcoming and grateful. And I was very pleased that they readily accepted the dog and cat food I had brought - in addition to things for their owners of course. That story about the man being able to buy his first treat for his dog in 16 years really got to me.

I asked how things had been for the food bank recently. The vicar told me he'd just been given a breakdown and they are now feeding about a thousand people ... for an area like this, I find that deeply shocking. He told me they come from all over - as far away as Aberaeron and Emlyn. That means they are having to travel substantial distances to get here. Glad to know there is a warm welcome for them when they arrive.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 1:16 pm

Diane Abbott MP ‏@HackneyAbbott 1h1 hour ago
Cameron's Deputy looks sick #pmqs

How did his Chancellor look?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 1:24 pm

Oh ..... eeeeeeekkkkkkk .... McVey's on. I feel my innards curling up in disgust with her first hectoring sentence. Got to go and make a cup of tea. She's interrupted Tristam Hunt straightaway. Twice now. Martha Kearney not able to control her.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 1:25 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Shame that poll is spoiled by a genuine comedy score of 14% for the LibDems

Do you think Mike Smithson has a point when he says LibDems tend to do better with ICM because the voting question specifically refers to "your constituency"?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 17 Dec, 2014 1:33 pm

Hmmm that maybe makes a slight difference but the LibDems now barely exist across much of the country, so the effect is surely less than it once might have been?