Saturday 28th & Sunday 29th October 2023

[refitman]

Morning all.

[refitman]

So, it seems that Labour's official position is still that Gaza should be flattened, but Israel should try and not kill quite so many innocent people?

[refitman]

[refitman]

Jewish protests in New York

[refitman]

Starmer getting the endorsement he so desperately wanted


Meanwhile, not all Labour MPs are absolute ghouls

[refitman]

The Party is properly starting to turn against Starmer

[refitman]

Protests in London.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Again, there is no PRACTICAL difference between "humanitarian pauses" and an official "ceasefire" WITHOUT A POLITICAL AGREEMENT.

Literally the only distinction is that "ceasefire" makes people feel warm and fuzzy inside.

In reality, if there was one tomorrow it would break down within days.

What then?

[refitman]

No. A ceasefire means that fighting stops. A 'humanitarian pause' (what a fucking awful term) means that they stop for a bit, allow some aid in, some people out and then start flattening buildings and killing people again.

It's pretty simple to be honest.

[refitman]

Just fully genocidal language from Netanyahu

[refitman]

Away from Gaza

[AnatolyKasparov]

No. A ceasefire means that fighting stops. A 'humanitarian pause' (what a fucking awful term) means that they stop for a bit, allow some aid in, some people out and then start flattening buildings and killing people again.

It's pretty simple to be honest.

Until it starts again, because there is not even a minimal political agreement. Maybe in a matter of days, just as with "humanitarian pauses" then.

I note that the Labour front benchers calling for a "ceasefire" are also saying hostages should be released and Hamas should stop its rocket attacks.

Yes, this would be good - and might mean a cessation means something and has a chance of holding for at least a while.

But that's the point - it involves *agreement* on stuff other than just "stop fighting".

[refitman]

But it's IMPLICIT with a 'pause' that the shellings and rockets and killings WILL RESUME. A ceasefire means that if someone starts shooting again, then in theory the international community can intervene (although chances currently seem slim). A 'pause' is tacit approval of what Israel are doing, just "please kill a few less civilians".

[AnatolyKasparov]

I note in passing that for once in his wretched life, Elon Musk is actually doing something useful (and Israel aren't happy)

[refitman]

You're gonna have to be more specific.

[gilsey]

I'm sure you've seen this by now but

Starlink will support connectivity to internationally recognized aid organizations in Gaza.

[refitman]

I'm sure you've seen this by now but

Starlink will support connectivity to internationally recognized aid organizations in Gaza.

I hadn't. Bloody hell, who'da thought he would stop being an almighty dick for 5 mins and do something good.

[notnowsonny]

You're gonna have to be more specific.

Quite true! It does help on occasions to have a hint. I also quite like to know to which contributor comments apply if it’s not immediately obvious.

[AnatolyKasparov]

My comments are occasionally a tad cryptic I will admit, but it was big news last night so I assumed people had heard

[frog222]

Friends in high places -

[notnowsonny]

My comments are occasionally a tad cryptic I will admit, but it was big news last night so I assumed people had heard

Not for me as I was in transit. Cryptic is good in a crossword, perhaps not do much in a political discussion forum, particularly as I do find your contributions interesting, if a little contrary at times!

[Sky'sGoneOut]

As previously mentioned it was my brother's wedding on Friday and either he and his other half managed to invite 80 or so leftie anti-Semites or the mood in this country is very far from the political/media narrative being foisted upon us.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't spend their wedding day interrogating friends and family about their views on what's going on in Gaza, quite the opposite in fact, but it kept coming up, especially once people had a few drinks in them. There were even a couple of occasions where I had to take on the mantle of the voice of reason, pointing out that 'Jew' and 'Israeli' are not interchangeable terms. Especially not when using the word 'fucking' as a prefix. Though those were both cousins once removed in their Seventies, or drunk half-uncles as I preferred to think of them. My point being that after a day of drinking with a relatively random cross section of society, most of whom I'd never met in my life so they had no idea what my politics were, I didn't talk to a single person who thought what the Israelis were doing was justified. Some said they'd stopped watching the news because they couldn't stand to see the suffering but most were genuinely angry and sickened.

Then, after some awesome dance moves as far as I remember them, I ended up ordering an Espresso Martini as my final drink thinking it would keep me awake long enough to wait for the taxi back to my brother's house (he and his bride were staying at a posh hotel). Once back there I indulged in a bit of weed, went to bed, then lay horribly awake for hours experiencing the worst anxiety and paranoia I've had for years. Stay away from caffeine kids.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

So essentially we're powerless. The views of the majority (in my experience) being ignored for political reasons.

None of us care about the Tories but fuck me Labour's response has been a cowardly disgrace. 'How do we balance this against that', we all know how it goes and it's utterly depressing.

Corbyn was/is a simple fool, he probably did more harm to Labour's support for the Palestinians than any previous Labour leader.

By being honest. Which sounds good but given the circumstances but it really wasn't.

And now we have Starmer...shitting the bed when his backbenchers ask for a ceasefire. Which as Refitman has pointed out is very different from an Israeli defined 'pause'.

One would hope now that we have members of various parliaments with family in Gaza asking for a ceasefire the slaughter might abate, but as my drunk cousin half removed uncle said to me the other night, 'They've learned the wrong lesson'.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

Anyway I've been mostly drunk since last Thursday, horrible things are happening over which I have no control once again and yet Refitman keeps this safe space ticking over.

Thanks dude. I appreciate it.

[refitman]

Glad you got a chance to bust some moves Sky.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

I've got your back dude.