Saturday 9th & Sunday 10th December 2023

[refitman]

Morning all.

Bloody hell, it's wet out.

[frog222]

Wet and windy here too, but warmed up to 11° !

And the Bialetti has just 'percolated'...

One vessel the Tories won't have overpaid £Billions for,

it's a free public service --

[frog222]

AK 11.02 PM -- thanks for that, here it is !

[frog222]

TODAY’S VERY SIMPLE QUIZ QUESTION !

What is the difference between all three of HIV, TB, Leprosy, and Covid ?

[frog222]

[refitman]

So...about that messaging

[refitman]

AK 11.02 PM -- thanks for that, here it is !

You do have to wonder about Sweeney's judgement, for writing for the JC in the first place. Kudos for him finally working out they're terrible people.

[frog222]

Nice one !

[AnatolyKasparov]

You do have to wonder about Sweeney's judgement, for writing for the JC in the first place. Kudos for him finally working out they're terrible people.

It wasn't always as bad as it is now, it may take some a while to realise what it these days.

[frog222]

AK 11.02 PM -- thanks for that, here it is !

You do have to wonder about Sweeney's judgement, for writing for the JC in the first place. Kudos for him finally working out they're terrible people.

Apart from that refit, what did you think of the YouTubes ?

[AnatolyKasparov]

So...about that messaging

Just imagine, for a moment, that a Labour government was in this position. They would be utterly crucified by literally everybody.

[refitman]

So...about that messaging

Just imagine, for a moment, that a Labour government was in this position. They would be utterly crucified by literally everybody.

Honestly, I don't get the point you're trying to make.

[AnatolyKasparov]

In that situation, nobody (including their left wing critics) would see it as an "improper" critique.

Because almost *everybody* has this deeply ingrained idea that Labour waste money and the Tories don't, despite all the evidence.

[refitman]

In that situation, nobody (including their left wing critics) would see it as an "improper" critique.

Because almost *everybody* has this deeply ingrained idea that Labour waste money and the Tories don't, despite all the evidence.

But they can say "They're wasting money on inhuman policies", not just "we'd do the bad shit, but cheaper". I fail to see how you're missing the point that sending people to Rwanda is a bad thing.

[gilsey]

[AnatolyKasparov]

And its quite OK for the likes of him and George Monbiot to say that, indeed they are correct. BUT they aren't a political party that needs to gain swing voters.

It has always been a failing of the Labour left that they genuinely seem to believe that moralism is enough to get power.

If that was true the Tories would literally *never* win, but of course they do.

[refitman]

And its quite OK for the likes of him and George Monbiot to say that, indeed they are correct. BUT they aren't a political party that needs to gain swing voters.

It has always been a failing of the Labour left that they genuinely seem to believe that moralism is enough to get power.

If that was true the Tories would literally *never* win, but of course they do.

I give up. I seriously don't get how you don't think that "let's not deport people who are seeking asylum, to a country that persecutes minorities" is a bad thing. I will no longer engage with your blindness on this.

[refitman]

Streeting can fuck off too. "Party of the NHS" my arse.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

Sigh.

[refitman]

Sky, no. You don't understand. They need to appeal to the bigots. This is a good thing actually.

[refitman]

Weirdly, the replies aren't very supportive

[Sky'sGoneOut]

And its quite OK for the likes of him and George Monbiot to say that, indeed they are correct. BUT they aren't a political party that needs to gain swing voters.

It has always been a failing of the Labour left that they genuinely seem to believe that moralism is enough to get power.

If that was true the Tories would literally *never* win, but of course they do.

Yes but it's not just the Labour left though is it? Most would call me a Liberal centrist but I, along with many like me if I'm gauging the mood right, are equally horrified by the increasingly right wing stances Labour are taking. As I said the other day if even John McTernan is penning articles in the Guardian saying Labour are swinging too far to the right then something has gone seriously wrong. His central point was hard to dispute, they're going after voters that they don't need and who are unlikely to vote for them anyway which is putting them at risk of alienating vast swathes of voters they do need. Even looking at it from a cold hard electoral strategy position it's madness. The Tories have been stripped down to their base, a rump of true blue fruitcakes who would eat their own shit before they ever voted Labour, and yet for some inexplicable reason Labour strategists are targetting them rather than the vast empty space in the centre the Tories have vacated. Why? It smacks of hubris and fear. Hubris because they think they've already got the anti-Tory vote sewn up so we can be safely taken for granted, and fear of the right wing press who they think they must appease by making these rancid offerings to hardcore Tory voters.

It's appalling, and could ultimately end up being self defeating because if we go into the next election with the Conservatives still in the state they're in now then plenty of people will assume they're going to lose however they vote and Labour's current 'get the Tories out' poll lead could shrink considerably as the coalition of voters they currently have fractures.

With the Tories commiting suicide Labour have a once in a generation opportunity to take advantage of it and offer genuine, meaningful change. The fact that they're too cowardly to grasp that opportunity, or even worse unwilling, is sickeningly depressing.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

Sky, no. You don't understand. They need to appeal to the bigots. This is a good thing actually.

It's incredible. We now find ourselves in the obscene position where on immigration the Labour party are to the right of Fraser Nelson, Kate Andrews, Tim Stanley and others at the Telegraph and Spectator.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

Bwah ha ha ha. Just had a quick skim through the ridiculous Mone video and apparently her and her husband use an old 60's reel to reel tape machine to record their dealings with nefarious agents of the state out to get them. There's no way it could possibly be a prop they've used in a laughable attempt to suggest sinister spy shenanigans are occurring.

[AnatolyKasparov]

I understand that people on here want Labour to say stuff they feel comfortable with, really I do.

But the reality is that political parties fundamentally exist to win elections. Not to be pressure groups or single issue campaign organisations.

Whilst only a minority of people in this country are overt racists (and no, despite what some claim Labour isn't aiming to get *their* votes) many more are susceptible to the sort of anti-immigrant arguments used in both the media and your average pub once the local bigot has had a few.

They will listen to arguments against that based in pragmatism, not "everybody who agrees with this is evil and deserves eternal damnation".

After all, we only have to look at the stellar electoral record of Corbynism to see the success of this attitude.

You don't like to hear that on here, but its true.

[refitman]

Oh no, they've lost Dunt!

[refitman]

After all, we only have to look at the stellar electoral record of Corbynism to see the success of this attitude.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Everyone I hate is Jeremy Corbyn.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[AnatolyKasparov]

He will still enthusiastically back a Labour win at the next election, though. It *is* possible to disagree with them on some things and still do that.

And that probably isn't "cowardice" btw, but what Kendall actually believes - not everyone even on the front bench will agree with her however.

[refitman]

So, Sky. Watched any *good* Cage movies lately?

[refitman]

The unwillingness to criticise Starmer's Labour for anything, is disappointing, but unsurprising.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

I understand that people on here want Labour to say stuff they feel comfortable with, really I do.

But the reality is that political parties fundamentally exist to win elections. Not to be pressure groups or single issue campaign organisations.

Whilst only a minority of people in this country are overt racists (and no, despite what some claim Labour isn't aiming to get *their* votes) many more are susceptible to the sort of anti-immigrant arguments used in both the media and your average pub once the local bigot has had a few.

They will listen to arguments against that based in pragmatism, not "everybody who agrees with this is evil and deserves eternal damnation".

After all, we only have to look at the stellar electoral record of Corbynism to see the success of this attitude.

You don't like to hear that on here, but its true.

I'm sorry AK but it simply isn't true.

Polling clearly shows making it more difficult for NHS and care staff to enter in this country is deeply unpopular, even half of Tory voters disagree with it, as someone who follows the polls you surely know this. Polling also shows attitudes to immigration as a whole have softened markedly over the last few years and it's dropped down the list of people's concerns. If you'd like to argue that I'm wrong about this feel free but I suspect you won't because we've all seen the evidence. The policies Labour are espousing are indisputably to the right of the prevailing view of the majority of the public unless every polling company has got this wrong.

The only pragmatism they're showing, if it can charitably be called that, is their craven appeasement of the right wing press.

And there's a hell of lot of ground between Corbynism and what Starmer is offering where they could have planted their flag instead. It's not a binary choice.

[AnatolyKasparov]

I'm not claiming they get everything right, just saying where they are coming from.

I agree they probably have a bit more room to move on these things, but that's where a "no risks" approach to winning the election gets you.

And the continuing influence of our right wing press - you call it "craven appeasement" and that is easy to do, but the last election shattered the illusions of a lot of people that they were in terminal decline. People *really* were spouting their lines back at Labour canvassers on the doorstep.

So a "safety first" approach is at least understandable.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

So, Sky. Watched any *good* Cage movies lately?

They're all good in their own special ways.

I was thinking about doing 'Leaving Las Vegas' this evening. I've never seen it because it's about a depressed alcoholic drinking himself to death and I don't need any encouragement but I've been told it's good.

There's also 'Matchstick Men' he made with Ridley Scott that's also supposed to be good which I've avoided because he plays someone with OCD which again I require no encouragement with.

So I'll bite the bullet and have a go at one of those two tonight and take a break from the more, shall we say eccentric offerings.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

Talking of eccentric fictional offerings here's a summary of the video Michelle Mone and her other half have put out.

They did nothing wrong. Everyone was at it. If all the other PPE contracts aren't being investigated why are they? They're the real victims.

The question of why as soon as they got the cash they bought a yacht and a plane and funnelled the rest of it into their and their kids bank accounts is never asked never mind answered. Or why they did a runner. Or why all the PPE they provided was sub-standard and had to be burned.

Instead we get a sob story about how everyone's being so mean to poor misunderstood Michelle that she's suffering from about 50 different mental illnesses all at the same time and we should all give her a break, especially that nasty Carol Vorderman.

What's most intriguing is why this guy would ruin his career and face eternal ridicule for this crap -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Williams-Thomas

Presumably they've paid him enough from their ill gotten gains that he never has to work again.

[AnatolyKasparov]

The unwillingness to criticise Starmer's Labour for anything, is disappointing, but unsurprising.

I could criticise them on quite a lot, believe me - but what's the point when everyone else is doing it?

At least it stops this place becoming an echo chamber

[frog222]

I posted this here and elsewhere not long after it came out on the second of March 2021

https://novaramedia.com/2021/03/02/keir ... ity-state/

The evidence was piled up that he is a soulless authoritarian SOB .

Anyone who disagrees, well do that delayed read of the bloody article,

or to save time this YT extract is only six minutes --



The Kremlin must be delighted as the LP neuters itself and does zero to tackle inequalities of wealth and income

[frog222]

It's OK, just a short clip of Jenrick the Pudge !

Bill Browder and Save British Farming demolish --



BTW Putin has recently been nationalising more forrin companies so the idea of taking Russia's forrin reserves and giving them to UKR is not dumb ?

[Sky'sGoneOut]

Matchstick Men.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0325805/

We're going back 20 years for this one with a proper director and everything. Cage plays a con artist suffering from what I guess is supposed to be OCD who through the help of a psychiatrist recommended by his partner in crime is introduced to his precocious teenage daughter. She ruins his careful routines, makes a mess of his tidy house, and becomes involved in their shady shenanigans for good and ill.

I have a bit of a love hate relationship with Ridley Scott. Alien and Blade runner are brilliant, but the rest? Meh. And for the first hour of this I really wasn't getting into it. Quite possibly because of the completely over the top portrayal of whatever the hell Cage was meant to be suffering from. It was like OCD, Tourette syndrome, and agoraphobia all rolled into one. Whether it was Cage's over exuberance or Scott's directing as someone with a touch of the old OCD myself it was cartoonishly exaggerated, but that wasn't my biggest problem with it. How the hell did a bloke riven with ticks and phobias have such a successful career as a smooth operating con man?

Anyway, once his daughter turned up it suddenly became great as he introduced her to his craft. A kind of daddy daughter buddy comedy that inevitably involved her in the big job he and his partner had planned.

I really don't want to give any more away because there's twists and turns and it ends up being a lot of fun to watch.

On the Cageometer it's hard to score. It's a proper film that's not just about him and in this instance his craziness is a caricature of something I know all too well so it's difficult to be objective. I reckon 7/10 is more than fair. Not the best Cage film but one of Ridley Scott's better efforts.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

And the continuing influence of our right wing press - you call it "craven appeasement" and that is easy to do, but the last election shattered the illusions of a lot of people that they were in terminal decline. People *really* were spouting their lines back at Labour canvassers on the doorstep.

Of course and you're absolutely right. I never bought the idea that the right (or left) wing media was declining in influence. We've reached this bizarre situation where most political social media accounts use the traditional media to provide legitimacy and content. A headline here, an article there. We do the same here all the time. Well not you to be fair.

Despite the efforts of all the online 'free thinkers' political discourse on social media is still largely driven by traditional media and that traditional media is still a right wing circle jerk in this country. I'm too drunk right now to remember who said this a few years back but they worked on R4's Today programme and said the first thing they saw when they got into work were copies of The Telegraph with sections of articles underlined.

Why else would the Qatari's want to buy it?

There's a weird parasite/host dance going on between our papers and the online world which if nothing else is soon to result in the Mail shutting their 'sidebar of shame' behind a paywall' so it's not all bad.

[Sky'sGoneOut]

I could criticise them on quite a lot, believe me - but what's the point when everyone else is doing it?

At least it stops this place becoming an echo chamber

You know we love you AK but there's a difference between providing a hard surface for us to bang our heads against and actual debate.

I hate to say this but it's becoming difficult to distinguish between you and Dan Hodges.

[gilsey]

Leaving Las Vegas is horrible, and not because of Cage drinking himself to death.

[Sky'sGoneOut]