Thursday 8th January 2015

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 2:19 pm

refitman wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Willow904 wrote: I think the main point is that if TV companies want to hold debates with Ukip but without the Green Party, Ofcom's opinion is that this would be acceptable within the political balance rules and the evidence they have produced to back their opinion is not unreasonable. It in no way stops TV companies from including the Greens if they choose to and their choosing not to still mostly reflects unfavourably on them. The interesting question is whether David Cameron will continue to use the supposed unfairness of including Ukip and not the Greens as an excuse to dodge the debates.
My reading of their ruling is no he cannot. They will offer him a place at the table, he has the option not to take it, but he cannot veto it. There is certainly a strong hint that way.
Tub of Lard? Or bucket of scarlet paint?

An empty wheelchair would seem appropriate, both as a symbol of those his government has disenfranchised - and killed - and also symbol of the broken Britain he leaves behind.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 2:19 pm

HindleA wrote:"Government plan to speed up payments to small firms backfires"

http://www.theguardian.com/public-leade ... nDemNation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The report also found government officials were unable to locate the original papers setting out the policy objectives, estimated costs and benefits of the five-day prompt payment commitment"

From the National Audit Office (NAO) report published today

From March 2010 the government required departments to include a standard clause in all new contracts requiring contractors to pay their subcontractors within 30 calendar days.

To monitor whether subcontractors are paid within 30 days, departments need to know who their subcontractors are
None of our 4 case study departments was able to tell us who their main subcontractors are
None of the 4 departments complies with Cabinet Office guidance, which advises them to compile data on whether their contractors are actually paying subcontractors within 30 days.

Many government supply chains resemble an inverted funnel with a few large main contractors working directly for the government, supplied by several tiers of smaller subcontractors, including small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs)...businesses are keen to preserve their cash position and delaying payment to subcontractors is an easy way to do this. SMEs are particularly vulnerable to slow payment because they often lack access to alternative sources of finance to cover delays in payment. At the same time, however, they tend to have little scope to demand timely payment from the larger businesses they supply because they rely on the continuing custom of those businesses to survive.

By October 2013
- 5 million SMEs in the UK
- accounting for 99.9% of private sector businesses
- employ more than 14 million people
- generate around half of UK businesses’ turnover

- total value of overdue invoices owed to UK SMEs increased
- £18.6 billion before 2008 credit crunch to more than £30 billion early 2014

http://www.nao.org.uk/report/paying-gov ... rs-time-2/

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 2:55 pm

Has there been anything from Nick Robinson regarding the "weaponized" comment? I've not seen/heard the BBC news.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 3:11 pm

AS said that Nick Watt was covering the Cameron/Osborne 'Northern Powerhouse' speeches...he clearly didn't think much of them as, apart from the marvellous moment when the organisers banned tweeting...and then retracted within 10 minutes, he tweeted only this.

Nicholas Watt
‏@nicholaswatt
Blurring of party + govt lines at PM northern powerhouse event. Tory 'long term economic plan' slogan on walls + lecterns. But HMG paying

So...no LibDems and everything was going to happen...after the election.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 3:35 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
en Bradshaw ‏@BenPBradshaw 35m35 minutes ago
Devon lollipop women & men next in line for Government & Devon County Council cuts http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/D ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
The Somerset lollipop women and men were virtually the first to go ... and then they had the nerve to advertise immediately for volunteers to take their places ... and the Chief Exec couldn't understand why people weren't leaping at the chance to fill the roles / jobs of sacked workers.

Volunteering for Lollipop duty is a hell of a risk...What if you inadvertently got a child injured or killed. Who pays the damages?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 3:37 pm

Willow904 wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: What has Farage been saying? I dread to think what capital he might try to make of this tragedy.

Farage Blames Multiculturalism For Paris Shootings

http://www.lbc.co.uk/farage-blames-mult ... ngs-102921

Taking complex events and ideas and boiling them down to a reason why we should leave the EU and control immigration is Farage's only trick but on this occasion it's rather distasteful, isn't it? Couldn't he have left the politicking at home just this once?

I imagine he squirmed with pleasure when he read what was happening.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 3:44 pm

David Davies (aka the stupid one called David Davies) has excelled himself this time. Heat's off Nigel.

http://www.david-daviesmp.co.uk/news/pa ... rights-act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Toby Latimer · Post by **Toby Latimer** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 3:52 pm

Dismissed UKIP Member told BBC that she "had a problem with negroes because there's something about their faces" http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/ukip-par ... duncan-332" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 3:58 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:David Davies (aka the stupid one called David Davies) has excelled himself this time. Heat's off Nigel.

http://www.david-daviesmp.co.uk/news/pa ... rights-act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Haven't seen Iain Dale's predictions for Monmouth, but I suppose its too much to hope for a Portillo moment?

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:08 pm

David Davies (aka the stupid one called David Davies)

You haven't really clarified that.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:10 pm

On the subject of the leaders' TV debates - just spotted on Twitter -

Tom Bradby just Tweeted this -
"After the Ofcom comments today, David Cameron all but rules out to me taking part in TV debates as currently proposed by the broadcasters"

So, as we have conjectured many times here before, it looks like Cameron's frit.

If what Bradby says is true, then Cameron will be hoping to take part only if he can do so on his terms.

"Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie, O, what a panic's in thy breastie"

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:13 pm

mikems wrote:
David Davies (aka the stupid one called David Davies)
You haven't really clarified that.

It was following on from a conversation here a few weeks back, I think the consensus was that they could best be differentiated by the tags "Occasionally Almost Human" and "The Stupid One" - all relative I guess.

WelshIan · Post by **WelshIan** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:17 pm

danesclose wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:David Davies (aka the stupid one called David Davies) has excelled himself this time. Heat's off Nigel.

http://www.david-daviesmp.co.uk/news/pa ... rights-act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Haven't seen Iain Dale's predictions for Monmouth, but I suppose its too much to hope for a Portillo moment?

Both Iain Dale and Electoral Calculus are predicting a Con hold so I suspect not.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:23 pm

Iain Dale @IainDale · 20h 20 hours ago
New Blog by me: General Election Predictions 37: Wales - Clwyd: This is the thirty-seventh in a series of blog... http://bit.ly/142F0yh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Iain Dale @IainDale · 18h 18 hours ago
New Blog by me: General Election Predictions 38: Wales - Dyfed: This is the thirty-eighth in a series of blogp... http://bit.ly/143fYiK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Iain Dale
‏@IainDale
New Blog by me: General Election Predictions 39: Wales - Mid Glamorgan: This is the thirty-ninth in a series o... http://bit.ly/144Wjii" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:27 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:David Davies (aka the stupid one called David Davies) has excelled himself this time. Heat's off Nigel.

http://www.david-daviesmp.co.uk/news/pa ... rights-act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the article:

"Under current laws, including the Human Rights Act, anyone can come to the UK and make a claim for asylum."

Very likely, but that certainly doesn't mean that they'll be granted asylum does it? The man's lack of logic is astounding, and simply betrays his agenda. "My car was sideswiped by a muslim driving another vehicle! Get rid of the HRA!!!!11!!!"

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:28 pm

Martin Rowson‏@MartinRowson ·
Talking of freedom of speech, mine's been entailed by me not being arsed to sign in to comment btl on my Graun #CharlieHebdo piece. But...

Martin Rowson‏@MartinRowson ·
...if I did I'd merely observe that I've never seen such a pack of self-righteous whinging cunt monkeys in my natural. Fuck the fuck off!

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:30 pm

ephemerid wrote:On the subject of the leaders' TV debates - just spotted on Twitter -

Tom Bradby just Tweeted this -
"After the Ofcom comments today, David Cameron all but rules out to me taking part in TV debates as currently proposed by the broadcasters"

So, as we have conjectured many times here before, it looks like Cameron's frit.

If what Bradby says is true, then Cameron will be hoping to take part only if he can do so on his terms.

"Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie, O, what a panic's in thy breastie"

I guess he realises that he won't be able to get away with the PMQs shit in a moderated debate. Perhaps he should have learnt to debate with Ed Miliband rather than make smug, fatuous and factually incorrect statements. Still, I'll miss his evisceration by the other party leaders.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:33 pm

I think that Ofcom ruling might help the Greens in some respects (unfair though I think it is). I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't give them impetus for attracting even more of a protest vote ... and determination to create effective campaigns and PR by a lot more use of alternative and social media.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:33 pm

Willow904 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
mikems wrote:The whole situation is absurd. If a party organises nationally and aims to stand in a sufficient number of seats they should get the same treatment as all the rest. Making rules about democracy on the basis of avoiding being sued is craziness, not to say profoundly undemocratic.

I'm sure the inidividuals working in Ofcom as as decent and honest as any one else, but as with Andrew Marr in his interview with Chomsky, they are where they are because of their ideological accommodation with the current establishment, not for their individual integrity or honesty,
Right, so logically in 1997 The Natural Law party would qualify as a major party, as well as the BNP and of course The Monster Raving Loony party.
I think the main point is that if TV companies want to hold debates with Ukip but without the Green Party, Ofcom's opinion is that this would be acceptable within the political balance rules and the evidence they have produced to back their opinion is not unreasonable. It in no way stops TV companies from including the Greens if they choose to and their choosing not to still mostly reflects unfavourably on them. The interesting question is whether David Cameron will continue to use the supposed unfairness of including Ukip and not the Greens as an excuse to dodge the debates.

The ruling doesn't just relate to the TV debates though. It applies to media coverage throughout the Election campaign. If the media are for instance covering a story in a particular constituency and they invite comments from any candidate, they have to invite/allow comments from all the 'main party' candidates. They wouldn't have to invite comments from the Green Party candidate. If this were in say Norwich South, it would mean the Green candidate could be excluded from commenting, despite the fact we are polling in second place there.

In addition, we are polling in third place overall among the under 40's and in second place amongst students. So, it could be argued The Greens are the party of the future. Further exposure might lead to an increase in support. Equally it might not. Either way, it is undemocratic if people are not given the opportunity to hear our views on an equal basis with other parties.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:41 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Iain Dale @IainDale · 20h 20 hours ago
New Blog by me: General Election Predictions 37: Wales - Clwyd: This is the thirty-seventh in a series of blog... http://bit.ly/142F0yh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Iain Dale @IainDale · 18h 18 hours ago
New Blog by me: General Election Predictions 38: Wales - Dyfed: This is the thirty-eighth in a series of blogp... http://bit.ly/143fYiK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Iain Dale
‏@IainDale
New Blog by me: General Election Predictions 39: Wales - Mid Glamorgan: This is the thirty-ninth in a series o... http://bit.ly/144Wjii" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I do get the impression predicting the Welsh seats haven't been too taxing for Dale, so far at least.

WelshIan · Post by **WelshIan** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:43 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Iain Dale @IainDale · 18h 18 hours ago
New Blog by me: General Election Predictions 38: Wales - Dyfed: This is the thirty-eighth in a series of blogp... http://bit.ly/143fYiK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3. Ceredigion

2010 Result:
Conservative: 4421 (11.6%)
Labour: 2210 (5.8%)
Lib Dem: 19139 (50%)
Plaid Cymru: 10815 (28.3%)
Green: 696 (1.8%)
UKIP: 977 (2.6%)
MAJORITY: 8324 (21.8%)

Sittting MP: Mark Williams (LibDem)
Prediction: LibDem hold

Plaid Cymru seem to be very confident they can take back this seat, which they unexpectedly lost in 2005. The LibDems will be badly affected by the loss of the student vote in Aberystwyth and Lampeter, but it’s difficult to work out how badly. I still think it’s a big call to predict anything other than a narrowish LibDem hold here, but I may well be proved wrong.

Ceredigion will be interesting and I have a feeling he will be proved wrong. There have been big swings in this seat previously and I can not see the LD vote holding up with the large student population in the area. The result will depend on whether Plaid can appeal to the former LD vote more than Labour or Green, and the personal standing of Mark Williams. If he is well respected locally then he may just hold on.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:47 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
The ruling doesn't just relate to the TV debates though. It applies to media coverage throughout the Election campaign. If the media are for instance covering a story in a particular constituency and they invite comments from any candidate, they have to invite/allow comments from all the 'main party' candidates. They wouldn't have to invite comments from the Green Party candidate. If this were in say Norwich South, it would mean the Green candidate could be excluded from commenting, despite the fact we are polling in second place there.

In addition, we are polling in third place overall among the under 40's and in second place amongst students. So, it could be argued The Greens are the party of the future. Further exposure might lead to an increase in support. Equally it might not. Either way, it is undemocratic if people are not given the opportunity to hear our views on an equal basis with other parties.

Well that would be just pants. You'd hope the media wouldn't be so stupid as to not understand where the real pivot points of a story are in particular areas ... but then again, we know they are pretty lacking sometimes.

It shouldn't be left to chance. I didn't like seeing the Green party being restricted to the others category and book ended by very very fringe party reps during the Euro election coverage here ... it didn't do justice to them.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:52 pm

WelshIan wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Iain Dale @IainDale · 18h 18 hours ago
New Blog by me: General Election Predictions 38: Wales - Dyfed: This is the thirty-eighth in a series of blogp... http://bit.ly/143fYiK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3. Ceredigion

2010 Result:
Conservative: 4421 (11.6%)
Labour: 2210 (5.8%)
Lib Dem: 19139 (50%)
Plaid Cymru: 10815 (28.3%)
Green: 696 (1.8%)
UKIP: 977 (2.6%)
MAJORITY: 8324 (21.8%)

Sittting MP: Mark Williams (LibDem)
Prediction: LibDem hold

Plaid Cymru seem to be very confident they can take back this seat, which they unexpectedly lost in 2005. The LibDems will be badly affected by the loss of the student vote in Aberystwyth and Lampeter, but it’s difficult to work out how badly. I still think it’s a big call to predict anything other than a narrowish LibDem hold here, but I may well be proved wrong.
Ceredigion will be interesting and I have a feeling he will be proved wrong. There have been big swings in this seat previously and I can not see the LD vote holding up with the large student population in the area. The result will depend on whether Plaid can appeal to the former LD vote more than Labour or Green, and the personal standing of Mark Williams. If he is well respected locally then he may just hold on.

This is my constituency and I think Plaid could swing it.
Williams' majority was only 219 in 2005, went through the roof on the back of Clegg mania in 2010.

But the local paper is usually wall to wall with pics and articles about Williams attending the opening of a crisp packet, or saying he endorses some charity or other [the sort that any right minded person would anyway], & he does spend a lot of time appearing at local events.

Plaid have chosen an English man as their candidate, an interesting choice.

What I am worried about is UKIP doing well, [thankfully not well enough to win] their vote was very much up here in the European elections.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:53 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
Martin Rowson‏@MartinRowson ·
Talking of freedom of speech, mine's been entailed by me not being arsed to sign in to comment btl on my Graun #CharlieHebdo piece. But...

Martin Rowson‏@MartinRowson ·
...if I did I'd merely observe that I've never seen such a pack of self-righteous whinging cunt monkeys in my natural. Fuck the fuck off!

Yes. Some of the comments were really putting the boot in.

But, they'll wish they hadn't. His tongue's even sharper than his pen.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:54 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Iain Dale @IainDale · 20h 20 hours ago
New Blog by me: General Election Predictions 37: Wales - Clwyd: This is the thirty-seventh in a series of blog... http://bit.ly/142F0yh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Iain Dale @IainDale · 18h 18 hours ago
New Blog by me: General Election Predictions 38: Wales - Dyfed: This is the thirty-eighth in a series of blogp... http://bit.ly/143fYiK" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Iain Dale
‏@IainDale
New Blog by me: General Election Predictions 39: Wales - Mid Glamorgan: This is the thirty-ninth in a series o... http://bit.ly/144Wjii" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I do get the impression predicting the Welsh seats haven't been too taxing for Dale, so far at least.

I had all but finished a post commenting on some of his predictions and analysis for our area of Dyfed and neighbouring Ceredigion ... but lost it at the last mo and couldn't be bothered to rewrite it. But his take on Dyfed was rather gloomy for us ... our campaign organiser still thinks it is all to fight for (going by canvassing returns) and says at the end it will come down to the national picture and how Labour nationally perform in the final weeks.

Ceredigion ... Mark Williams is very good at beings all things to all people. He also crosses over borders into other territories - i.e. North Pembs - which might be rejigged to be part of Ceredigion next time round - I discovered this morning. He's extending his PR well in advance. Hope he goes ... but that's personal because of the badger cull. But on those same grounds I can't bear the thought of Plaid Cymru gaining any ground locally. Skull and crossbones sign.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:57 pm

: Camerons Bottle.jpg (18.15 KiB) Viewed 11638 times

Mark Ferguson ‏@Markfergusonuk 11m11 minutes ago
LOST: if found please return to David Cameron

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 4:58 pm

Rebecca@

I'd rather have Plaid than a Lib Dem, hopefully reducing the chance of another Tory/Lib coalition.

Also, it would be rather sweet for the Libs to lose all their Welsh seats.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:01 pm

Sorry I cannot do the whole Charlie thing. It makes me weep. All of it. We are as much a part of what these terrible killings are as Islam is. I am NOT Charlie and never will be. Free speech and free everything is not absolutely openended. There's respect and responsibility too. We made a horrible monstrous thing and we now mock it and and when it reacts as it is bound to do, say that is free speech, and monster, being mocked is something you have to get used to. And because of this and the righteous way we dismiss our role in things there may well be more monsters made, for we are quite good and that, we are growing our own version and feeding it lots.

I wrote a reply, Citizen JA, to your post, but lost it. What do you or I or anyone do with this. I'm in a way an incomer as well as a native of this country. See it as an insider and from outside. Though yesterday's events were in France it will reverberate here too. As I sat in my taxi this morning my very nice Muslim driver was listening to a talk show about yesterday's events. Normally we could have discussed the topics of interest, today we could not, but we bid each other a good day, kindly. I kept wondering if he had a wife, family, children, and whether they would be called names, or kicked, or spat at because of what I was hearing. Or worse. I wondered what it is like to be Muslim in the here and now. One caller asked why the leaders of Islam don't speak out against things like this. I winced at this, and wanted to cry because I have heard, over and again leaders of communities do this, very publicly.

I'm sorry I may not be in accord with what others are thinking. But feel we have a long way, in our dominant cultures, to go in terms of wisdom. I'm very sad about the loss of life, and the sorrow so many people will be feeling for the loss of people they love, but I can't help thinking if you bait a creature in terrible pain it will bite, perhaps again and again. People don't do such things if they are happy, content, wanted. we need a change, I hope it will come, but did we go too far. No one talks of Libya, or those springs that turned to desolate parched summer.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:07 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: Right, so logically in 1997 The Natural Law party would qualify as a major party, as well as the BNP and of course The Monster Raving Loony party.
I think the main point is that if TV companies want to hold debates with Ukip but without the Green Party, Ofcom's opinion is that this would be acceptable within the political balance rules and the evidence they have produced to back their opinion is not unreasonable. It in no way stops TV companies from including the Greens if they choose to and their choosing not to still mostly reflects unfavourably on them. The interesting question is whether David Cameron will continue to use the supposed unfairness of including Ukip and not the Greens as an excuse to dodge the debates.
The ruling doesn't just relate to the TV debates though. It applies to media coverage throughout the Election campaign. If the media are for instance covering a story in a particular constituency and they invite comments from any candidate, they have to invite/allow comments from all the 'main party' candidates. They wouldn't have to invite comments from the Green Party candidate. If this were in say Norwich South, it would mean the Green candidate could be excluded from commenting, despite the fact we are polling in second place there.

In addition, we are polling in third place overall among the under 40's and in second place amongst students. So, it could be argued The Greens are the party of the future. Further exposure might lead to an increase in support. Equally it might not. Either way, it is undemocratic if people are not given the opportunity to hear our views on an equal basis with other parties.

The Greens are not the party of the future, on the basis of dubious samples from polls. Get 15-20 MPs in Tory seats and I will be impressed though.

On a national basis the Greens are not a major party, consider the Europeans where the results suggest relatively little headway has been made. In a given seat however I think the broadcasters need to consider local factors, as Ofcom hint. In reality any local debate in Norwich South would have to include the Green Party (although the polling position there says far more about the collapse of the Lib Dems and the weakness of the Tory party than the strength of the Green Party). If the Greens rock up with that Ashcroft poll Alan Partridge is going to have to let your candidate on the program.

Politics has always excluded the minor parties to a degree, otherwise as pointed out previously The Natural Law party would qualify as a major party.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:12 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:
The ruling doesn't just relate to the TV debates though. It applies to media coverage throughout the Election campaign. If the media are for instance covering a story in a particular constituency and they invite comments from any candidate, they have to invite/allow comments from all the 'main party' candidates. They wouldn't have to invite comments from the Green Party candidate. If this were in say Norwich South, it would mean the Green candidate could be excluded from commenting, despite the fact we are polling in second place there.

In addition, we are polling in third place overall among the under 40's and in second place amongst students. So, it could be argued The Greens are the party of the future. Further exposure might lead to an increase in support. Equally it might not. Either way, it is undemocratic if people are not given the opportunity to hear our views on an equal basis with other parties.
Well that would be just pants. You'd hope the media wouldn't be so stupid as to not understand where the real pivot points of a story are in particular areas ... but then again, we know they are pretty lacking sometimes.

It shouldn't be left to chance. I didn't like seeing the Green party being restricted to the others category and book ended by very very fringe party reps during the Euro election coverage here ... it didn't do justice to them.

I will amend my Greens are not a major party line to say in European elections they have a track record that says they should be considered to be so. They have MEPs and the voting method makes them competitive everywhere.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:12 pm

seeingclearly wrote:Sorry I cannot do the whole Charlie thing. It makes me weep. All of it. We are as much a part of what these terrible killings are as Islam is. I am NOT Charlie and never will be. Free speech and free everything is not absolutely openended. There's respect and responsibility too. We made a horrible monstrous thing and we now mock it and and when it reacts as it is bound to do, say that is free speech, and monster, being mocked is something you have to get used to. And because of this and the righteous way we dismiss our role in things there may well be more monsters made, for we are quite good and that, we are growing our own version and feeding it lots.

I wrote a reply, Citizen JA, to your post, but lost it. What do you or I or anyone do with this. I'm in a way an incomer as well as a native of this country. See it as an insider and from outside. Though yesterday's events were in France it will reverberate here too. As I sat in my taxi this morning my very nice Muslim driver was listening to a talk show about yesterday's events. Normally we could have discussed the topics of interest, today we could not, but we bid each other a good day, kindly. I kept wondering if he had a wife, family, children, and whether they would be called names, or kicked, or spat at because of what I was hearing. Or worse. I wondered what it is like to be Muslim in the here and now. One caller asked why the leaders of Islam don't speak out against things like this. I winced at this, and wanted to cry because I have heard, over and again leaders of communities do this, very publicly.

I'm sorry I may not be in accord with what others are thinking. But feel we have a long way, in our dominant cultures, to go in terms of wisdom. I'm very sad about the loss of life, and the sorrow so many people will be feeling for the loss of people they love, but I can't help thinking if you bait a creature in terrible pain it will bite, perhaps again and again. People don't do such things if they are happy, content, wanted. we need a change, I hope it will come, but did we go too far. No one talks of Libya, or those springs that turned to desolate parched summer.

I agree with lots of that.

"I'm Charlie" because people were horribly murdered, including two policemen. I'm also, in that sense, my Bengali neighbours, who'll cop utter shit from it.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:15 pm

I don't know what guidelines Ofcom have, if they have any precise ones at all.

I don't think though when you've got a party with, on current evidence, as much support as the Lib Dems, that they should be excluded.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:21 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30726499" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Cameron will refuse TV debates if Greens excluded

What a bellend. Does anyone think he's a principled pluralist, rather than just worried he'll come out shit?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:21 pm

seeingclearly wrote:Sorry I cannot do the whole Charlie thing. It makes me weep. All of it. We are as much a part of what these terrible killings are as Islam is. I am NOT Charlie and never will be. Free speech and free everything is not absolutely openended. There's respect and responsibility too. We made a horrible monstrous thing and we now mock it and and when it reacts as it is bound to do, say that is free speech, and monster, being mocked is something you have to get used to. And because of this and the righteous way we dismiss our role in things there may well be more monsters made, for we are quite good and that, we are growing our own version and feeding it lots.

I wrote a reply, Citizen JA, to your post, but lost it. What do you or I or anyone do with this. I'm in a way an incomer as well as a native of this country. See it as an insider and from outside. Though yesterday's events were in France it will reverberate here too. As I sat in my taxi this morning my very nice Muslim driver was listening to a talk show about yesterday's events. Normally we could have discussed the topics of interest, today we could not, but we bid each other a good day, kindly. I kept wondering if he had a wife, family, children, and whether they would be called names, or kicked, or spat at because of what I was hearing. Or worse. I wondered what it is like to be Muslim in the here and now. One caller asked why the leaders of Islam don't speak out against things like this. I winced at this, and wanted to cry because I have heard, over and again leaders of communities do this, very publicly.

I'm sorry I may not be in accord with what others are thinking. But feel we have a long way, in our dominant cultures, to go in terms of wisdom. I'm very sad about the loss of life, and the sorrow so many people will be feeling for the loss of people they love, but I can't help thinking if you bait a creature in terrible pain it will bite, perhaps again and again. People don't do such things if they are happy, content, wanted. we need a change, I hope it will come, but did we go too far. No one talks of Libya, or those springs that turned to desolate parched summer.

Thanks for posting this but I disagree as I cannot accept that violence is the correct response to satire. In some ways I feel sorry for some of the people who carry out these acts because they are often (not always though) exploited and used by those who do not deserve an ounce of sympathy.

Why I feel 'I am Charlie' is that I am okay with offending people based on their religious beliefs. Religious belief is the same to me as a political belief and I have no problem offending Tories. I find the whole idea of theistic religion and devotion baffling and, although I would never want to stop people believing what they want, I also reserve my right to satirise it in the way that people satirise Trekkies and D&D players.....maybe it is not polite and maybe it is sometimes inappropriate but thems the breaks. Maybe the cartoonists went further than I would go - in fact they did - but is that a capital crime? I have looked at the cartoons and I did not find that they incited hatred towards the religion, rather I saw them mocking it

I think we are far too sensitive to satire and we try to too often link religious belief to race when the two are completely separate.

I accept the argument that being a muslim in the west at the moment is a frightening experience and we should oppose those who want to use these heinous acts to create more hatred. Just the same, I imagine, as being a Christian in Iraq or Egypt can be a horrible experience. We should also give support to these communities and fight against those such as the FN, UKIP, BNP who will use this for political ends

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:23 pm

Has Aberconwy been polled? As Dale says, the opposition has been split but 35.8% isn't exactly much for Guto Bebb to start from.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:23 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Sorry I cannot do the whole Charlie thing. It makes me weep. All of it. We are as much a part of what these terrible killings are as Islam is. I am NOT Charlie and never will be. Free speech and free everything is not absolutely openended. There's respect and responsibility too. We made a horrible monstrous thing and we now mock it and and when it reacts as it is bound to do, say that is free speech, and monster, being mocked is something you have to get used to. And because of this and the righteous way we dismiss our role in things there may well be more monsters made, for we are quite good and that, we are growing our own version and feeding it lots.

I wrote a reply, Citizen JA, to your post, but lost it. What do you or I or anyone do with this. I'm in a way an incomer as well as a native of this country. See it as an insider and from outside. Though yesterday's events were in France it will reverberate here too. As I sat in my taxi this morning my very nice Muslim driver was listening to a talk show about yesterday's events. Normally we could have discussed the topics of interest, today we could not, but we bid each other a good day, kindly. I kept wondering if he had a wife, family, children, and whether they would be called names, or kicked, or spat at because of what I was hearing. Or worse. I wondered what it is like to be Muslim in the here and now. One caller asked why the leaders of Islam don't speak out against things like this. I winced at this, and wanted to cry because I have heard, over and again leaders of communities do this, very publicly.

I'm sorry I may not be in accord with what others are thinking. But feel we have a long way, in our dominant cultures, to go in terms of wisdom. I'm very sad about the loss of life, and the sorrow so many people will be feeling for the loss of people they love, but I can't help thinking if you bait a creature in terrible pain it will bite, perhaps again and again. People don't do such things if they are happy, content, wanted. we need a change, I hope it will come, but did we go too far. No one talks of Libya, or those springs that turned to desolate parched summer.
I agree with lots of that.

"I'm Charlie" because people were horribly murdered, including two policemen. I'm also, in that sense, my Bengali neighbours, who'll cop utter shit from it.

I would like to echo that final comment from Tubby

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:25 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I don't know what guidelines Ofcom have, if they have any precise ones at all.

I don't think though when you've got a party with, on current evidence, as much support as the Lib Dems, that they should be excluded.

I believe they have explained their thinking quite well.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:27 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I don't know what guidelines Ofcom have, if they have any precise ones at all.

I don't think though when you've got a party with, on current evidence, as much support as the Lib Dems, that they should be excluded.
I believe they have explained their thinking quite well.

It is now up to the broadcasters to invite them anyway and call Cameron's bluff - I will not be holding my breath for the BBC but I cannot see the others letting him get away with it that easily

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:28 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Sorry I cannot do the whole Charlie thing. It makes me weep. All of it. We are as much a part of what these terrible killings are as Islam is. I am NOT Charlie and never will be. Free speech and free everything is not absolutely openended. There's respect and responsibility too. We made a horrible monstrous thing and we now mock it and and when it reacts as it is bound to do, say that is free speech, and monster, being mocked is something you have to get used to. And because of this and the righteous way we dismiss our role in things there may well be more monsters made, for we are quite good and that, we are growing our own version and feeding it lots.

I wrote a reply, Citizen JA, to your post, but lost it. What do you or I or anyone do with this. I'm in a way an incomer as well as a native of this country. See it as an insider and from outside. Though yesterday's events were in France it will reverberate here too. As I sat in my taxi this morning my very nice Muslim driver was listening to a talk show about yesterday's events. Normally we could have discussed the topics of interest, today we could not, but we bid each other a good day, kindly. I kept wondering if he had a wife, family, children, and whether they would be called names, or kicked, or spat at because of what I was hearing. Or worse. I wondered what it is like to be Muslim in the here and now. One caller asked why the leaders of Islam don't speak out against things like this. I winced at this, and wanted to cry because I have heard, over and again leaders of communities do this, very publicly.

I'm sorry I may not be in accord with what others are thinking. But feel we have a long way, in our dominant cultures, to go in terms of wisdom. I'm very sad about the loss of life, and the sorrow so many people will be feeling for the loss of people they love, but I can't help thinking if you bait a creature in terrible pain it will bite, perhaps again and again. People don't do such things if they are happy, content, wanted. we need a change, I hope it will come, but did we go too far. No one talks of Libya, or those springs that turned to desolate parched summer.
I agree with lots of that.

"I'm Charlie" because people were horribly murdered, including two policemen. I'm also, in that sense, my Bengali neighbours, who'll cop utter shit from it.

I expect to end up arguing with various denizens of one of my locals about this (I go there to do council paperwork, as the other local - the better one - is so full of people I know and like that it's impossible to do work there), as there are a few UKIP supporters in the place, and whilst I'm generally polite to them and present them factual arguments, I just know that some idiot will come out the "all muslims" line at some point and rail against multiculturalism, oblivious to the fact that the vast majority of muslims in the UK are settled, live here and are as British as they are. Furthermore, the attack in Paris was in Paris, not Bury, and was committed by fanatical criminals, not average muslims. It's a little like trying to argue that when Christian or Jewish extremists commit extreme acts that they are somehow representing all people of their particular faith - risible.

Still, at least it'll be nice to put them right, if they fancy their chances...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:30 pm

Otto English @Otto_English · 6h 6 hours ago
Farage: "We have a fifth column living among us. They hold our passports but they hate us." Almost like he's talking about his own party

I'd like a clapping emoticon without the smile for that. Farage is beyond contempt. Otto English spot on.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:36 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
I expect to end up arguing with various denizens of one of my locals about this (I go there to do council paperwork, as the other local - the better one - is so full of people I know and like that it's impossible to do work there), as there are a few UKIP supporters in the place, and whilst I'm generally polite to them and present them factual arguments, I just know that some idiot will come out the "all muslims" line at some point and rail against multiculturalism, oblivious to the fact that the vast majority of muslims in the UK are settled, live here and are as British as they are. Furthermore, the attack in Paris was in Paris, not Bury, and was committed by fanatical criminals, not average muslims. It's a little like trying to argue that when Christian or Jewish extremists commit extreme acts that they are somehow representing all people of their particular faith - risible.

Still, at least it'll be nice to put them right, if they fancy their chances...

Good luck!

Sadly, I expect that for every one you, there'll be a load of people pointing at their local mosques, even ones that are basically terraced houses with domes on the top, and saying "Come on then! Come on!"

Doesn't look to me like Rushanara Ali has gone out of her way to condemn the attack. Nor should she any more than anyone else.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:39 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I don't know what guidelines Ofcom have, if they have any precise ones at all.

I don't think though when you've got a party with, on current evidence, as much support as the Lib Dems, that they should be excluded.
I believe they have explained their thinking quite well.

It is now up to the broadcasters to invite them anyway and call Cameron's bluff - I will not be holding my breath for the BBC but I cannot see the others letting him get away with it that easily

The broadcasters don't want them, they will call the debates, which is why we are where we are. Cameron wants them either to muddy the waters or to split the Labour vote, neither are desirable as far as I am concerned. In reality I suspect if they were invited Cameron would find something else to stall over. I would expect Galloway would also demand to be included (and he would have a very strong case). If the Greens challenge Cameron will argue that the delay makes the debates impossible to arrange.

If the Greens had done better in the Europeans it would be a different story because they would be a major party and putting them in wouldn't open the door to the rest of the small parties.

It is a mess, which works for Dave.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:41 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:I don't know what guidelines Ofcom have, if they have any precise ones at all.

I don't think though when you've got a party with, on current evidence, as much support as the Lib Dems, that they should be excluded.
I believe they have explained their thinking quite well.

I hadn't seen that, but I don't think they should be put in that position really. I don't think you can reduce a decision like this to an admin detail. Not to say politicians should dictate it either though. It's genuinely hard, but as I say, the Greens could be pretty unequivocally ahead of the Lib Dems by the time of the debates, so excluding them would be a nonsense. Particularly given the boost Clegg got from the debates last time- they did matter.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:42 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:Sorry I cannot do the whole Charlie thing. It makes me weep. All of it. We are as much a part of what these terrible killings are as Islam is. I am NOT Charlie and never will be. Free speech and free everything is not absolutely openended. There's respect and responsibility too. We made a horrible monstrous thing and we now mock it and and when it reacts as it is bound to do, say that is free speech, and monster, being mocked is something you have to get used to. And because of this and the righteous way we dismiss our role in things there may well be more monsters made, for we are quite good and that, we are growing our own version and feeding it lots.

I wrote a reply, Citizen JA, to your post, but lost it. What do you or I or anyone do with this. I'm in a way an incomer as well as a native of this country. See it as an insider and from outside. Though yesterday's events were in France it will reverberate here too. As I sat in my taxi this morning my very nice Muslim driver was listening to a talk show about yesterday's events. Normally we could have discussed the topics of interest, today we could not, but we bid each other a good day, kindly. I kept wondering if he had a wife, family, children, and whether they would be called names, or kicked, or spat at because of what I was hearing. Or worse. I wondered what it is like to be Muslim in the here and now. One caller asked why the leaders of Islam don't speak out against things like this. I winced at this, and wanted to cry because I have heard, over and again leaders of communities do this, very publicly.

I'm sorry I may not be in accord with what others are thinking. But feel we have a long way, in our dominant cultures, to go in terms of wisdom. I'm very sad about the loss of life, and the sorrow so many people will be feeling for the loss of people they love, but I can't help thinking if you bait a creature in terrible pain it will bite, perhaps again and again. People don't do such things if they are happy, content, wanted. we need a change, I hope it will come, but did we go too far. No one talks of Libya, or those springs that turned to desolate parched summer.
I agree with lots of that.

"I'm Charlie" because people were horribly murdered, including two policemen. I'm also, in that sense, my Bengali neighbours, who'll cop utter shit from it.
I expect to end up arguing with various denizens of one of my locals about this (I go there to do council paperwork, as the other local - the better one - is so full of people I know and like that it's impossible to do work there), as there are a few UKIP supporters in the place, and whilst I'm generally polite to them and present them factual arguments, I just know that some idiot will come out the "all muslims" line at some point and rail against multiculturalism, oblivious to the fact that the vast majority of muslims in the UK are settled, live here and are as British as they are. Furthermore, the attack in Paris was in Paris, not Bury, and was committed by fanatical criminals, not average muslims. It's a little like trying to argue that when Christian or Jewish extremists commit extreme acts that they are somehow representing all people of their particular faith - risible.

Still, at least it'll be nice to put them right, if they fancy their chances...

Suppose they will not have any inkling about the French right wing activity and outrages years ago re Algeria.

I couldn't sleep last night, my husband switched to Al Jazeera just before bed time and before I could stop myself seeing it they showed an un-pixellated clip of that poor policeman being executed.
That stayed with me.

At 4am I got up to make some early breakfast and read some extracts from the Dhammapada, the reported words of the Buddha. ''....hate is never conquered by hate. Hate is conquered by love. This is an eternal law.'' Maybe one day we will evolve sufficiently to be able to live in that way.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:42 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: I believe they have explained their thinking quite well.

It is now up to the broadcasters to invite them anyway and call Cameron's bluff - I will not be holding my breath for the BBC but I cannot see the others letting him get away with it that easily
The broadcasters don't want them, they will call the debates, which is why we are where we are. Cameron wants them either to muddy the waters or to split the Labour vote, neither are desirable as far as I am concerned. In reality I suspect if they were invited Cameron would find something else to stall over. I would expect Galloway would also demand to be included (and he would have a very strong case). If the Greens challenge Cameron will argue that the delay makes the debates impossible to arrange.

If the Greens had done better in the Europeans it would be a different story because they would be a major party and putting them in wouldn't open the door to the rest of the small parties.

It is a mess, which works for Dave.

depends whether they want the debates more than not inviting the greens

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:44 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
It is now up to the broadcasters to invite them anyway and call Cameron's bluff - I will not be holding my breath for the BBC but I cannot see the others letting him get away with it that easily
The broadcasters don't want them, they will call the debates, which is why we are where we are. Cameron wants them either to muddy the waters or to split the Labour vote, neither are desirable as far as I am concerned. In reality I suspect if they were invited Cameron would find something else to stall over. I would expect Galloway would also demand to be included (and he would have a very strong case). If the Greens challenge Cameron will argue that the delay makes the debates impossible to arrange.

If the Greens had done better in the Europeans it would be a different story because they would be a major party and putting them in wouldn't open the door to the rest of the small parties.

It is a mess, which works for Dave.
depends whether they want the debates more than not inviting the greens

You miss the point, if they invite the Greens they will have to invite the other minor parties.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:46 pm

Worth recalling that last person to run amok in a Parisian office (in 2002) was some kind of Green/Socialist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanterre_massacre" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:46 pm

Here is a bit of light relief.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... rrari.html

Smart enough to be a criminal mastermind but not smart enough to live modestly before retiring quietly and moving to Cyprus.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:47 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Worth recalling that last person to run amok in a Parisian office (in 2002) was some kind of Green/Socialist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanterre_massacre" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also worth noting Farage wants to legalise hand guns.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Thu 08 Jan, 2015 5:51 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: The broadcasters don't want them, they will call the debates, which is why we are where we are. Cameron wants them either to muddy the waters or to split the Labour vote, neither are desirable as far as I am concerned. In reality I suspect if they were invited Cameron would find something else to stall over. I would expect Galloway would also demand to be included (and he would have a very strong case). If the Greens challenge Cameron will argue that the delay makes the debates impossible to arrange.

If the Greens had done better in the Europeans it would be a different story because they would be a major party and putting them in wouldn't open the door to the rest of the small parties.

It is a mess, which works for Dave.
depends whether they want the debates more than not inviting the greens
You miss the point, if they invite the Greens they will have to invite the other minor parties.

Not sure that is necessarily the case and I am sure a compromise will be reached if needed if they want to do it enough