ohsocynical wrote:Willow904 wrote:
I used to quite like the Greens. I liked the way they didn't have a leader, just speakers (I have a vague memory of a guy in an anorak speaking to someone from the BBC and thinking how refreshingly un-politicianlike he was, really genuine and enthusiastic!). Caroline Lucas is pretty cool too, a very effective environmentalist, a real asset to the Green movement generally. Since Natalie Bennett took over as leader, however, I've gone right off them. Suddenly they're just like all the other parties, all spin and lies and political positioning. Some may say it's worked, they've grown in membership and in the polls...but at what cost? At the moment they seem intent on stealing votes off Labour, even if it means lying about them, rather than championing left-wing politics against the hegemony of the right. If it was more a case of, we oppose the right, agree with Labour where they are on the left, but would go much further ourselves, then I would applaud them, but instead they appear to be peddling the "there're all the same" rubbish dreamed up by the right that is specifically designed to ensure anyone with even slightly left-leaning views is conned into voting for anyone but Labour, as the only party that can actually gain the majority necessary to implement any kind of left-wing agenda. But maybe I'm just getting the wrong impression. Perhaps if Natalie invested in a nice anorak she might win me over again....
Good luck to anyone that rubs UKIP and the LibDems noses in it. But and it's a big but, I wonder if a lot of the people joining the Greens over the last couple of weeks have done so because of Dave's using the Greens as a bargaining point in the TV debates.
In other words anti-Dave rather than pro-Green.
Evening all,
I've picked this post to respond to 'cos it kind of leads back to the comments by Caroline Lucas that upset people the other day, and that I said I'd come back to. I took a look at Caroline's twitter account but there really wasn't anything more than the comments Tubby posted here for me to see. I didn't follow the debate at the time but broadly, I do think it was about 'differentiation' as I said I thought might be the case. For what its worth, this is my 'take';
I think we'll all agree that the Tories are about cutting state spending and public services. Furthermore, I think we'll all agree that this impacts most on the disabled, sick, unemployed, low paid, young people, pensioners on basic rate pension only, and even on people on a fairly 'middle' or OK ish wage [by which I mean, better than minimum wage, but not higher or even middle tax bracket]. The politics of Austerity.
The Green Party are totally opposed to this. We reject the politics of austerity entirely and believe it to be totally and utterly wrong and a disaster for the Country as a whole. So, the Tories and the Greens are at complete odds on this.
Labour, seem to be somewhere in between. They have not totally rejected the politics of austerity. They accept the need for some cuts, and have stated they won't reverse all the Tory cuts. From an absolute pure Green point of view, not rejecting the politics of austerity is wrong. End of. And I think this is what Caroline was expressing. I believe there are Labour MPs who actually think along similar lines.
Bear with me before you decapitate me though - pretty please? I'm not here to blame Labour for their political view, or to get into a discussion about cuts etc. I'm just trying to give my response to your upset at Caroline's tweets.
Some of you have expressed disappointment in Caroline behaving in the same way as other politicians and have said you thought the Greens were different. I understand that. I wish all politicians would cut the attacks on other parties, and instead focus on their own positive alternatives. But it isn't the way politics is sadly. And Labour are guilty too. At a local level, I do try to focus on the positive, but it is hard. I think Caroline was setting out a fundamental difference of approach and philosophy. I guess as a leading Green, she has to do that.
You know, it's not just politicians that do it either. Look at the btl comments on various blogs and articles. Even on here where we all try to be more respectful of different points of view, we slip into it on occasion. Now and then, I see a bit of a dig at the Greens even on here, and I trundle off and make a cup of tea rather than bite [well, mostly anyway].
There are of course some die hard Greens that will never vote Labour - even in a constituency where Greens don't have a chance and Labour do. By the same token, there are some die hard Labour voters that would never vote Green [or another leftish party], even if the Green [or other leftish party] were the ones with the real chance to topple the Tory in that area. For some of those people it's because they won't consider anyone other than 'their party', for some it's because they disagree with tactical voting.
However, I do know the majority of Greens I come across, are very aware that while the Labour party approach is different to ours, they mostly believe it is not as damaging as the Tory approach. Some believe it is slightly less damaging, some believe Labour are a whole lot better than the Tories. Most are conscious of the dilemma. I have to say though, nearly all of us get really pissed off when we are told that we
must vote Labour or we will personally be at fault if the Tories get back in. And believe me, that does happen on occasion - though I'm not saying it happens on here.
To try and explain the reaction, imagine you were living in an area where a Green candidate had the most chance of beating the Tory. You'd probably find it perfectly reasonable if I asked you to consider voting for the Green to beat the Tory. But if I
demanded you voted Green, you'd probably want to tell me to go feck myself [or words to that effect].
Ohso, I don't know if the people joining over the last couple of weeks are doing so as an 'anti Dave' statement but I do think his position has given us a huge boost in terms of publicity. Personally I think these people were Green inclined and he's tipped them over into joining. Our membership numbers have been increasing for some time though.
Anyway, I've rambled on for long enough. Hope I haven't offended anyone. I'm just trying to give some explanation, or at least, my take.
Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.