Saturday 17th & Sunday 18th January 2015

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 6:25 pm

I see that Cameron suffered from the 'Crimson Tide' even back then.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 6:26 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: I haven't looked at these proposals, but other ones I saw did have housing separate.

It can't really not be because costs vary so much.

One thing I notice is that it starts with the level of JSA. I'm pretty sure the Greens have made a fair bit about that being too low. So someone unemployed, or on long term sick is going to be as poor as they are under the Coalition now.

So is the Green policy a citizens income and whatever your mortgage/rent is per month? Because if it isn't then you haven't got a citizens income.
I'm talking about a non-Green version I saw, to be clear. But don't see how it can be different.

The Citizens Income is the bit to "live on". Housing Benefit is presumably run along the lines it is now.

Aside from the cost of giving everybody £72 a week, it has something to be said for it as simpler, avoids benefit sanctions etc. But hardly a bullwark against poverty.

So, can I buy my house with stables, lose my job, have the government pay my mortgage, chuck 72 quid at me a week and if I make any money just declare it and get taxed on it?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 6:28 pm

Spacedone wrote:I see that Cameron suffered from the 'Crimson Tide' even back then.

Indeed, although I think the idea of Cameron seeing anything in advance is rather far fetched myself.

He is the sort of guy who is surprised by the appearance of the sun in the morning.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 6:30 pm

Spacedone wrote:Here's one for those of you with an interest in education and all things academy.

Academy schools stockpile £2.5bn of education funding
http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... ng-england" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Academy schools in England are sitting on a cash stockpile of nearly £2.5bn worth of surpluses – more than £550,000 per school – draining the education sector in England of funds that could be spent on teaching and learning.

Figures released by the Department for Education under parliamentary questions show that the 4,400 academies in England held cash reserves of £2.47bn at the end of the last financial year – more than the remaining 18,700 maintained schools put together, which held a combined £2.18bn.

I've pointed out the fact that the proportion of secondary schools (which are usually far larger than primaries) which are academies is far greater than the figure for primaries.

Useless without comparing balances as % income for both LA maintained and academies. It may well be true...but you can't tell with just the total amount. Even then if they're holding capital balances for new classrooms or whatever, that would need to be taken into account first.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 6:34 pm

Paddy Briggs ‏@PaddyBriggs 4h4 hours ago
My response to @IainDale terrific article in today's Indy containing his #ge2015 predictions. pic.twitter.com/C9XgvpV8Wr

https://twitter.com/PaddyBriggs/status/ ... 96/photo/1

Wish he had posted it as something other than a photo.

This is me thanking refitman for the fix.

Toby Latimer · Post by **Toby Latimer** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 6:35 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
Spacedone wrote:I see that Cameron suffered from the 'Crimson Tide' even back then.
Indeed, although I think the idea of Cameron seeing anything in advance is rather far fetched myself.

He is the sort of guy who is surprised by the appearance of the sun in the morning.

Quite, I was having a dig at todays Dacre Comic headline

: ScreenShot00064.jpg (154.64 KiB) Viewed 9108 times

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 6:37 pm

Toby Latimer wrote:Breaking news ... Norman Lamont's special advisor hid the truth about Black Wednesday. Knew it was about to happen but kept it a secret

ScreenShot00061.jpg

Look at that suit!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 6:43 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"After hated Atos quits,will Maximus make work assessments less arduous?"

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 7:02 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... CMP=twt_gu

"After hated Atos quits,will Maximus make work assessments less arduous?"

At the heart of the programme, very little will be different. Most of Atos’s staff will be given the option to transfer to the new company. Some of the senior managers have already left Atos to join Maximus.

They've answered the question right there.

G workforce must be on a go slow ... they don't seem to have bothered to actually post the images into the frames in the article.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 7:18 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
So, can I buy my house with stables, lose my job, have the government pay my mortgage, chuck 72 quid at me a week and if I make any money just declare it and get taxed on it?

I'd have thought you'd have to sell your house. When the Greens talk about people losing their homes, they're talking about people not affording the rent.

They might pay mortgage interest for you. to a certain level.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 7:22 pm

Our demonstration yesterday and a paralysed man told he has to apply for a job hod carrying roof tiles.
https://thepoorsideoflife.wordpress.com ... oof-tiles/

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 7:41 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
HindleA wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... CMP=twt_gu

"After hated Atos quits,will Maximus make work assessments less arduous?"

At the heart of the programme, very little will be different. Most of Atos’s staff will be given the option to transfer to the new company. Some of the senior managers have already left Atos to join Maximus.
They've answered the question right there.

G workforce must be on a go slow ... they don't seem to have bothered to actually post the images into the frames in the article.

Well staff transfers are, thanks to TUPE, the law.

Unless the regime changes from any excuse to save money to make damn sure your assessment is correct and err on the side of caution I really don't see anything changing.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 8:14 pm

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehous ... vens-plan/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Piss-take article of the weekend...

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 8:21 pm

StephenDolan wrote:http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehous ... vens-plan/

Piss-take article of the weekend...

So says a former Lansley spad!

As for the attack on the Welsh NHS, as someone who works there my reply is short and sweet, go fuck yourself.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 8:25 pm

In fact it's the same bloke who commissioned that poll that found Cameron more trusted on the NHS that Miliband, which the lefty Guardian so conveniently run..

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 8:26 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehous ... vens-plan/

Piss-take article of the weekend...

So says a former Lansley spad!

As for the attack on the Welsh NHS, as someone who works there my reply is short and sweet, go fuck yourself.

Bill Morgan is a Founding Partner of Incisive Health

Now where have I seen his name and company lately?

Ah...here it is:

David Cameron still more trusted on NHS than Ed Miliband, survey shows

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... nhs-survey

Mike Birtwistle, a founding partner at the consultancy firm Incisive Health, which commissioned the survey,

Well...

Edit - that'll teach me to be all academic an'all and find the article...

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 8:39 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
@warrenmorgan: Brighton and Hove Green Party tells Green councillors to vote against Green council Budget http://greenleftblog.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... otion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … #farce
I'm trying to get my head around this. Has the Green council there actually produced a budget with cuts proposed? The link goes to an account of the meeting of the B&H Green Party where they unanimously passed the motion saying no Green councillors should support a budget with cuts.

It's sort of weird what a brush with the reality of politics and economics really is. I'm much more battle hardened since 2012 when I was elected as a Labour councillor (#proud). Since that time, I've had to help preside over cuts and more cuts, whilst trying to preserve services. Not easy, I can tell you.

As a result, I have absolute contempt for the wankers - and that's what they are - who tell you to vote through an illegal budget, or to simply refuse to cut budgets (it amounts to the same).

The result of that is - and always will be - the councillors will be disqualified and surcharged, and the budget will be taken out the hands of olcally elected councilors and put into the hands of Eric Pickles, who'll delegate a lackey to do it to us, and, in all probability, make far worse cuts.

I've had this bullshit about not proposing a budget from the local wankers in the Greens, and I'd very much like to know just how the Greens (as a party) intend to go about this if they ever achieve power. Apparently, in B&H, they've rather rowed back on such antics, but I'd be relieved to hear from others that they've abandoned this bullshit for good. And with it, I hope, the associated bullshit about Labour "voting for austerity" - you can seriously fuck off with that one.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 8:43 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:In fact it's the same bloke who commissioned that poll that found Cameron more trusted on the NHS that Miliband, which the lefty Guardian so conveniently run..

That bloke's a hoot.

Some will recall that we have been here before. In winter 2010, waiting times lengthened as the NHS was shaken by a serious flu outbreak

As opposed to now, when shit's hitting the fan without anything exceptional happening.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 8:44 pm

Spacedone wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
So he is predicting a Tory hold in Stockton S, then - that's rather brave. Though I expect it to be close again, it is a low swing seat outside "realigning" elections.
Some of his predictions defy logic. He has Heywood and Middleton going to UKIP. If they couldn't win it in the by-election on a low turnout and with the usual protest vote in their favour then I fail to see how they're going to win it on double the turnout and with a change of Government a possibility.

Correctomundo. Expect a four figure Labour majority in May when the Labour voters come out in earnest. Turnout's the key. UKIP voters are fucking mad and would vote in a blizzard, other, more sane voters, aren't disciples and need a nudge.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 8:46 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
@warrenmorgan: Brighton and Hove Green Party tells Green councillors to vote against Green council Budget http://greenleftblog.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... otion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … #farce
I'm trying to get my head around this. Has the Green council there actually produced a budget with cuts proposed? The link goes to an account of the meeting of the B&H Green Party where they unanimously passed the motion saying no Green councillors should support a budget with cuts.
It's sort of weird what a brush with the reality of politics and economics really is. I'm much more battle hardened since 2012 when I was elected as a Labour councillor (#proud). Since that time, I've had to help preside over cuts and more cuts, whilst trying to preserve services. Not easy, I can tell you.

As a result, I have absolute contempt for the wankers - and that's what they are - who tell you to vote through an illegal budget, or to simply refuse to cut budgets (it amounts to the same).

The result of that is - and always will be - the councillors will be disqualified and surcharged, and the budget will be taken out the hands of olcally elected councilors and put into the hands of Eric Pickles, who'll delegate a lackey to do it to us, and, in all probability, make far worse cuts.

I've had this bullshit about not proposing a budget from the local wankers in the Greens, and I'd very much like to know just how the Greens (as a party) intend to go about this if they ever achieve power. Apparently, in B&H, they've rather rowed back on such antics, but I'd be relieved to hear from others that they've abandoned this bullshit for good. And with it, I hope, the associated bullshit about Labour "voting for austerity" - you can seriously fuck off with that one.

Last year in Brighton, apparently, the councillors went to very late in the day wouldn't set a budget.

They'll doubtless set one this year, but rather shows how grassroots democracy goes out of the window when there's actual responsibilities.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 9:08 pm

john richardson retweeted
Philippa ‏@incurablehippie 7 hrs7 hours ago
I can't vote Labour because of disability benefit crap. But now I know @TheGreenParty wants it to be legal to kill me :-/ Spoiled paper?

I must have missed this?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 9:11 pm

ohsocynical wrote:john richardson retweeted
Philippa ‏@incurablehippie 7 hrs7 hours ago
I can't vote Labour because of disability benefit crap. But now I know @TheGreenParty wants it to be legal to kill me :-/ Spoiled paper?

I must have missed this?

Indeed on both fronts, what exactly is Labour's disability benefit cap (I am sure somebody here can enlighten me) and why are the Greens hanging around outside showers with carving knives?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 9:22 pm

Presume it is Green Party support for assisted dying.

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 9:25 pm

diGriz wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
diGriz wrote:
You may be better off scanning all of the pages (newer scanner/copiers can do multiple pages at a time) to your email as attachments and then convert them with software that recognises text into Word documents. You may have some editing and spelling to correct but it should be quicker in the long run.

Here's a webpage you could test it on. http://www.onlineocr.net/

That's good advice but I lent/gave my copier scanner to my granddaughter. She uses it a lot more than I did, so I don't miss it too much.
At present I don't have a decent Word processing app.
My computer is Win8, which meant I had to re-purchase MS Word/Office after buying it a few years ago, and I refuse to pay for it all over again.
Libra do a free app, which I was using before my computer crashed, but I really couldn't get on with it.
Need to hunt around and see if there's something basic, easy and free I can use if I get the Dragon voiceware.

I don't have the patience to go back over things that are done and dusted but at Christmas was prompted by my sons garbled recollections of some of the family stories and history...He definitely needs re-programming

I'm not a huge Microsoft fan so I use Open Office instead. https://www.openoffice.org/

Me too. It can read Microsoft docs as well, unless they're password protected.

seeingclearly · Post by **seeingclearly** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 9:29 pm

HindleA wrote:Presume it is Green Party support for assisted dying.

Not just that they support assisted dying, but that they do so in light of the Dutch experience. When you look into it, from the perspective of actual disability rather than the potential for future sickness decline and so on, there is a trajectory of development from the original concept of assisted dying that is very worrying. This is not hypothetical at all. In Holland things have taken on a life of their own, and disabled people are rightly concerned.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 9:30 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
diGriz wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Off topic but I'm toying with buying voice recognition software. I think it needs to be an English system, having had problems with a US based app in the past

I loaned my memory stick with all my writing on it to my granddaugher as she was 'desperate' for one for a piece of homework, and I'm not likely to get it back. Have lots of print outs, but just don't have to time to re-type everything back in...

So - any recommends from you good folk?

You may be better off scanning all of the pages (newer scanner/copiers can do multiple pages at a time) to your email as attachments and then convert them with software that recognises text into Word documents. You may have some editing and spelling to correct but it should be quicker in the long run.

Here's a webpage you could test it on. http://www.onlineocr.net/

That's good advice but I lent/gave my copier scanner to my granddaughter. She uses it a lot more than I did, so I don't miss it too much.
At present I don't have a decent Word processing app.
My computer is Win8, which meant I had to re-purchase MS Word/Office after buying it a few years ago, and I refuse to pay for it all over again.
Libra do a free app, which I was using before my computer crashed, but I really couldn't get on with it.
Need to hunt around and see if there's something basic, easy and free I can use if I get the Dragon voiceware.

I don't have the patience to go back over things that are done and dusted but at Christmas was prompted by my sons garbled recollections of some of the family stories and history...He definitely needs re-programming

Come on OhSo, sharpen up - OpenOffice is out there, Micro$oft friendly and free to download. Now get to it (cracks whip).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 9:33 pm

@seeingclearly thanks for information.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 9:38 pm

seeingclearly wrote:
HindleA wrote:Presume it is Green Party support for assisted dying.
Not just that they support assisted dying, but that they do so in light of the Dutch experience. When you look into it, from the perspective of actual disability rather than the potential for future sickness decline and so on, there is a trajectory of development from the original concept of assisted dying that is very worrying. This is not hypothetical at all. In Holland things have taken on a life of their own, and disabled people are rightly concerned.

I didn't realise they were dumb enough to support assisted dying.

I can see why somebody who has a disability wouldn't want that around. Given the fact relatives are prepared to let Granny languish in hospital rather than use her estate to pay for a care home, it isn't a stretch to see Granny being pressured into being put down.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 9:39 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Councils rely on local 'street champions' to pick up litter, prune hedges and grit minor roads as funds run out
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 85738.html
... In Oxfordshire, subsidised transport for the elderly and disabled will be cut back. Village halls and sports clubs are threatened, as council support for community services is chopped. Ian Hudspeth, the county council leader, said statutory care services would account for three-quarters of the authority’s budget by 2020. “Unless we get additional funding, the county council will struggle to do anything but provide a safety net for the most vulnerable people in Oxfordshire,” he said.
... A report from the New Local Government Network (NLGN) published last year predicted that the situation would get so serious that “the future may be one of private affluence and public squalor”. It said: “Councils and their residents will have to accept more litter on the streets, fewer libraries and theatres and parks that are left to turn into wild meadows.”
Has the leader of Oxfordshire County Council let Dave know how critical things are in his own back yard? I wonder if Dave is going to be minded to dip into his fortune to finance some vital services for his community? Knowing him he will probably prefer to do an annual fun run to raise a few quid and get some more desperately craved publicity for himself. It will all be down to the largesse of the Chipping Norton set, feudalism openly returned as the way things work, or don't, around here.

The LGA having been screaming abour this for the last couple of years. The "graph of doom" (as it's called) shows the lines where rising social need - adult, children's, etc, all due to central government - and available funds cross. That's the doom: you hit a point where your council can do nothing other than the barest essentials. People will suffer, and that's the Tories wet dream - emasculate councils to the degree where the only alternatives are charity, religion or death.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 10:12 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Councils rely on local 'street champions' to pick up litter, prune hedges and grit minor roads as funds run out
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 85738.html
... In Oxfordshire, subsidised transport for the elderly and disabled will be cut back. Village halls and sports clubs are threatened, as council support for community services is chopped. Ian Hudspeth, the county council leader, said statutory care services would account for three-quarters of the authority’s budget by 2020. “Unless we get additional funding, the county council will struggle to do anything but provide a safety net for the most vulnerable people in Oxfordshire,” he said.
... A report from the New Local Government Network (NLGN) published last year predicted that the situation would get so serious that “the future may be one of private affluence and public squalor”. It said: “Councils and their residents will have to accept more litter on the streets, fewer libraries and theatres and parks that are left to turn into wild meadows.”
Has the leader of Oxfordshire County Council let Dave know how critical things are in his own back yard? I wonder if Dave is going to be minded to dip into his fortune to finance some vital services for his community? Knowing him he will probably prefer to do an annual fun run to raise a few quid and get some more desperately craved publicity for himself. It will all be down to the largesse of the Chipping Norton set, feudalism openly returned as the way things work, or don't, around here.
The LGA having been screaming abour this for the last couple of years. The "graph of doom" (as it's called) shows the lines where rising social need - adult, children's, etc, all due to central government - and available funds cross. That's the doom: you hit a point where your council can do nothing other than the barest essentials. People will suffer, and that's the Tories wet dream - emasculate councils to the degree where the only alternatives are charity, religion or death.

I rather think that will be toxic for the Tory core vote. Granny does like her services, and she expects the litter to be kept of the streets. I cannot see how this will be permitted by any sort of government post election.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 10:17 pm

Mike Smithson
‏@MSmithsonPB
@georgeeaton For there to be swingback there needs to be voters who have swung in 1st place. Virtually no 2010 CON gone to LAB

There's an interesting-ish conversation linked to this tweet - in which several people seem to be concluding that Kellner may be being rather over optimistic, giving the benefit of the doubt to the Conservatives re election predictions.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 10:19 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
diGriz wrote:
You may be better off scanning all of the pages (newer scanner/copiers can do multiple pages at a time) to your email as attachments and then convert them with software that recognises text into Word documents. You may have some editing and spelling to correct but it should be quicker in the long run.

Here's a webpage you could test it on. http://www.onlineocr.net/

That's good advice but I lent/gave my copier scanner to my granddaughter. She uses it a lot more than I did, so I don't miss it too much.
At present I don't have a decent Word processing app.
My computer is Win8, which meant I had to re-purchase MS Word/Office after buying it a few years ago, and I refuse to pay for it all over again.
Libra do a free app, which I was using before my computer crashed, but I really couldn't get on with it.
Need to hunt around and see if there's something basic, easy and free I can use if I get the Dragon voiceware.

I don't have the patience to go back over things that are done and dusted but at Christmas was prompted by my sons garbled recollections of some of the family stories and history...He definitely needs re-programming

Come on OhSo, sharpen up - OpenOffice is out there, Micro$oft friendly and free to download. Now get to it (cracks whip).

I've done it, I've done it...And the Dragon voice recognition will be with me tomorrow.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 10:20 pm

: WhatHas5YearsofToryLedGovtDoneForWales.jpg (70.46 KiB) Viewed 8928 times

Huw Irranca-Davies ‏@IrrancaDaviesMP 5m5 minutes ago
What has 5 years of Tory-led coalition gov't meant for Wales? Tomorrow's headlines spell it out via @JoStevensLabour

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 10:22 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:

That's good advice but I lent/gave my copier scanner to my granddaughter. She uses it a lot more than I did, so I don't miss it too much.
At present I don't have a decent Word processing app.
My computer is Win8, which meant I had to re-purchase MS Word/Office after buying it a few years ago, and I refuse to pay for it all over again.
Libra do a free app, which I was using before my computer crashed, but I really couldn't get on with it.
Need to hunt around and see if there's something basic, easy and free I can use if I get the Dragon voiceware.

I don't have the patience to go back over things that are done and dusted but at Christmas was prompted by my sons garbled recollections of some of the family stories and history...He definitely needs re-programming

Come on OhSo, sharpen up - OpenOffice is out there, Micro$oft friendly and free to download. Now get to it (cracks whip).

I've done it, I've done it...And the Dragon voice recognition will be with me tomorrow.

Dragons are so cool Ohso. I hope it has a Welsh intonation built in ... it will pick up every consonant and syllable perfectly if so.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 11:05 pm

: VoteGreenGetToryGovt_17ConstituenciesOnTheEdge.jpg (70.45 KiB) Viewed 8890 times

This could get very interesting and nervy ...

I really hope people do what is necessary to rid Bermondsey and Southwark of Simon Hughes. That one rankles. He comes across as so sanctimonious ... whilst voting for unspeakably cruel policies.

Oh - and Sheffield Hallam as well - of course.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 11:12 pm

: YourVoteMatters.jpg (45.92 KiB) Viewed 8885 times

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 11:17 pm

Hello again,

Right, Brighton.

The Greens are the largest party in Brighton but they don't have a majority. The Tories and Labour can, and often do, join forces to vote against things the Greens there want to do. Naturally this leads to increased difficulties and as the 'largest group' and therefore supposedly making the decisions, the Greens always get the blame.

As you all know, the Tories have cut back funding for local government. Therefore Brighton Council [like all others], have got to reduce spending and/or increase income. Brighton Greens wanted to put it to the electorate [via a referendum] that council tax should be increased in order to protect at least some spending. Labour and the Tories voted them down on that. So, as Ernst said, they have got to set a balanced budget and the only remaining way to do that, is by service cuts.

The wider Brighton Green Party have as RR pointed out, agreed a motion that the Green Councillors should effectively refuse to set a budget that includes any cuts. Not sure what they expect them to do. Get themselves into the same kind of mess that the Liverpool Labour council did back in the mid '80's? Resign en masse? Tell the opposition to set the budget? Feck knows. If I had been at that meeting, I would have been asking them exactly that. Whatever happened at that meeting, the outcome means their Green Councillors who were in an exceedingly difficult position, are now in a bloody impossible one.

Citizens Income.

This would be more than JSA. It would be paid to all citizens. Children would be awarded a reduced Citizens Income that would be paid to their parent/guardian.

Disability benefits would be paid separately.

Housing benefits would initially be paid separately.

The Green party would increase the number of social houses being built, remove incentives for buy to let landlords, and look to put a rent cap in place. All this would take time. Once done, the Green Party would look at the feasibility of including housing payments within the Citizens Income. Obviously this would be a long way down the line and would have to be in a much better economic climate given it would be payable to all citizens if it were part of the Citizens Income. Imo that would be very difficult as it would have to take into account regional variations, plus household variations.

Natalie did not say 'payment would be withdrawn when an individual's income reached a certain unspecified level'. She said "And in terms of the
citizen’s income, it’s worth saying that what that would do is as soon as you’re earning any sort of reasonable amount of money, the tax system takes that back; but what the universal citizen’s income offers is a sense of security". What she is referring to there is that part of the funding for the Citizens Income would come from scrapping Personal Allowance. As soon as you started earning, you'd be paying some tax.

For all I know, it may be that when the Manifesto comes out, there will be some tweaks or adjustments to that but that is the current position. And I'm not aware of any major changes to that being made at conference. I couldn't attend but I haven't seen, heard, read, or received any notifications to say there has been a change to the policy. That said, at the time of the conference, I don't think my membership was up to date :oops so its feasible I guess that I missed something.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 11:28 pm

Hello Tizme.

As you all know, the Tories have cut back funding for local government. Therefore Brighton Council [like all others], have got to reduce spending and/or increase income. Brighton Greens wanted to put it to the electorate [via a referendum] that council tax should be increased in order to protect at least some spending. Labour and the Tories voted them down on that. So, as Ernst said, they have got to set a balanced budget and the only remaining way to do that, is by service cuts.

The figure they wanted to raise by was 4.75%, which had no chance at all of winning, so would have been a waste of money. Think Labour supported the maximum allowed without a referendum, or thereabouts?

Apol, misread re CI- it would be more than JSA.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 11:29 pm

Tizme1 wrote:Hello again,

Right, Brighton.

The Greens are the largest party in Brighton but they don't have a majority. The Tories and Labour can, and often do, join forces to vote against things the Greens there want to do. Naturally this leads to increased difficulties and as the 'largest group' and therefore supposedly making the decisions, the Greens always get the blame.

As you all know, the Tories have cut back funding for local government. Therefore Brighton Council [like all others], have got to reduce spending and/or increase income. Brighton Greens wanted to put it to the electorate [via a referendum] that council tax should be increased in order to protect at least some spending. Labour and the Tories voted them down on that. So, as Ernst said, they have got to set a balanced budget and the only remaining way to do that, is by service cuts.

The wider Brighton Green Party have as RR pointed out, agreed a motion that the Green Councillors should effectively refuse to set a budget that includes any cuts. Not sure what they expect them to do. Get themselves into the same kind of mess that the Liverpool Labour council did back in the mid '80's? Resign en masse? Tell the opposition to set the budget? Feck knows. If I had been at that meeting, I would have been asking them exactly that. Whatever happened at that meeting, the outcome means their Green Councillors who were in an exceedingly difficult position, are now in a bloody impossible one.

Citizens Income.

This would be more than JSA. It would be paid to all citizens. Children would be awarded a reduced Citizens Income that would be paid to their parent/guardian.

Disability benefits would be paid separately.

Housing benefits would initially be paid separately.

The Green party would increase the number of social houses being built, remove incentives for buy to let landlords, and look to put a rent cap in place. All this would take time. Once done, the Green Party would look at the feasibility of including housing payments within the Citizens Income. Obviously this would be a long way down the line and would have to be in a much better economic climate given it would be payable to all citizens if it were part of the Citizens Income. Imo that would be very difficult as it would have to take into account regional variations, plus household variations.

Natalie did not say 'payment would be withdrawn when an individual's income reached a certain unspecified level'. She said "And in terms of the
citizen’s income, it’s worth saying that what that would do is as soon as you’re earning any sort of reasonable amount of money, the tax system takes that back; but what the universal citizen’s income offers is a sense of security". What she is referring to there is that part of the funding for the Citizens Income would come from scrapping Personal Allowance. As soon as you started earning, you'd be paying some tax.

For all I know, it may be that when the Manifesto comes out, there will be some tweaks or adjustments to that but that is the current position. And I'm not aware of any major changes to that being made at conference. I couldn't attend but I haven't seen, heard, read, or received any notifications to say there has been a change to the policy. That said, at the time of the conference, I don't think my membership was up to date :oops so its feasible I guess that I missed something.

Hello Tizme, and thanks for coming back to set things out as you see them. I'm very glad to know I'm not quite as daft as I might have thought ... the Brighton situation is as I thought it was, and if you see the situation of those Green councillors as impossible - between a rock, hard place and screaming like a banshee - I feel somewhat reassured. What's actually going to happen ... well that's another imponderable.

Thanks for the outline re citizens income ... sounds like it's clearly a long term project. Be interesting to see the sums for people on low incomes who would start paying tax on any earnings with the withdrawal of a personal allowance ... and also the workings behind the rent controls. Presumably housing calculations / controls might need to be localised ... because that's been the utter failing of many of this govt's housing policies - that they've been universal / no flexibility re regions and London centric when the conditions and price ranges in London are so atypical of much of the rest of the country.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 11:36 pm

As Rebecca says, doesn't that mean you start paying income tax at a very low income? I presume they'd start NI at the same level. So say the CI is £100 a week, that's starting income tax at £5,200. or if it's £120 then £6,000.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 11:37 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:john richardson retweeted
Philippa ‏@incurablehippie 7 hrs7 hours ago
I can't vote Labour because of disability benefit crap. But now I know @TheGreenParty wants it to be legal to kill me :-/ Spoiled paper?

I must have missed this?
Indeed on both fronts, what exactly is Labour's disability benefit cap (I am sure somebody here can enlighten me) and why are the Greens hanging around outside showers with carving knives?

The tweet says "I can't vote Labour because of disability benefit crAp" Not cap. I guess she is referring to the fact that Labour appear content to continue with the WCA in some form or another. With regards her reference to the Greens wanting to kill her, below are links to two statements that sum up the Green Party approach;

http://greenparty.org.uk/archive/releas ... icide.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://greenparty.org.uk/news/call-for- ... dying.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 11:51 pm

Citizens Income costs £239bn here

http://www.citizensincome.org/FAQs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and weekly amount (replacing JSA) is only £65

I haven't got a good feeling about these numbers...

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Sun 18 Jan, 2015 11:59 pm

Sometimes I think nothing in politics can shock me anymore, and then something as utterly shameless as this comes out.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... tal-health" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How the LibDems have the sheer nerve to even say something that fucking hypocritical I cannot even begin to understand. And then you read it, and it gets worse.

"The deputy prime minster will, according to a text released before the event, also argue that nobody should be blamed for the existing suicide rate. "It is doing more in every area of our society to ensure that people don’t get to that point where they believe taking their own life is their only option,” Clegg will say."

Tell that to yourself before you go to bed every night, you despicable fucking c***, its not going to change the reality of what you have enabled, and the reality of what you have driven people to. People are dead becouse of you and your bunch of fucking wannabes.

Edit to add: no comments allowed on that of course. Because the Guardian know exactly what everybody would say.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Mon 19 Jan, 2015 12:01 am

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Citizens Income costs £239bn here

http://www.citizensincome.org/FAQs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and weekly amount (replacing JSA) is only £65

I haven't got a good feeling about these numbers...

If you read the small print that isn't a citizens income. It just replaces existing benefits with a flat universal benefit (adjusted to favour old people, presumably at the expense of young people).

Additional benefits to create an actual citizens income will be means tested, and since the assumption is people will work it seems to me this is just what we had today before IDS started his stupid sanctions regime.

Get rid of that stupidity and I don't really see how this is any more than PR with a sprinkling of inefficiency thrown in.

I have no idea how that link relates to Green Party policy.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Mon 19 Jan, 2015 12:04 am

ErnstRemarx wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Councils rely on local 'street champions' to pick up litter, prune hedges and grit minor roads as funds run out
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 85738.html
... In Oxfordshire, subsidised transport for the elderly and disabled will be cut back. Village halls and sports clubs are threatened, as council support for community services is chopped. Ian Hudspeth, the county council leader, said statutory care services would account for three-quarters of the authority’s budget by 2020. “Unless we get additional funding, the county council will struggle to do anything but provide a safety net for the most vulnerable people in Oxfordshire,” he said.
... A report from the New Local Government Network (NLGN) published last year predicted that the situation would get so serious that “the future may be one of private affluence and public squalor”. It said: “Councils and their residents will have to accept more litter on the streets, fewer libraries and theatres and parks that are left to turn into wild meadows.”
Has the leader of Oxfordshire County Council let Dave know how critical things are in his own back yard? I wonder if Dave is going to be minded to dip into his fortune to finance some vital services for his community? Knowing him he will probably prefer to do an annual fun run to raise a few quid and get some more desperately craved publicity for himself. It will all be down to the largesse of the Chipping Norton set, feudalism openly returned as the way things work, or don't, around here.
The LGA having been screaming abour this for the last couple of years. The "graph of doom" (as it's called) shows the lines where rising social need - adult, children's, etc, all due to central government - and available funds cross. That's the doom: you hit a point where your council can do nothing other than the barest essentials. People will suffer, and that's the Tories wet dream - emasculate councils to the degree where the only alternatives are charity, religion or death.

No, let me make this uttlery clear: if your local council can't do it, you will have a 'choice' - beg, go to a religious body (the same thing) or die (what the Tories prefer).

Now tell me you're voting green in May.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Mon 19 Jan, 2015 12:05 am

Tish wrote:Sometimes I think nothing in politics can shock me anymore, and then something as utterly shameless as this comes out.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... tal-health" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How the LibDems have the sheer nerve to even say something that fucking hypocritical I cannot even begin to understand. And then you read it, and it gets worse.

"The deputy prime minster will, according to a text released before the event, also argue that nobody should be blamed for the existing suicide rate. "It is doing more in every area of our society to ensure that people don’t get to that point where they believe taking their own life is their only option,” Clegg will say."

Tell that to yourself before you go to bed every night, you despicable fucking c***, its not going to change the reality of what you have enabled, and the reality of what you have driven people to. People are dead becouse of you and your bunch of fucking wannabes.

Maybe he could start by publishing the DWP investigations, and then to make everybody feel better he could consign IDS to a secure mental unit and throw away the key.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Mon 19 Jan, 2015 12:21 am

Jon Snow retweeted
New York Times World @nytimesworld · 9h 9 hours ago
Thousands of pages of documents reveal Chérif and Saïd Kouachi's path to violence http://nyti.ms/1yvn1vG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We don't seem to have any comparable journalism at present - read the linked NYTI article. Shame.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Mon 19 Jan, 2015 12:23 am

Tizme1 wrote:I guess she is referring to the fact that Labour appear content to continue with the WCA in some form or another.

That is a very ...... interesting choice of words you have used there Tizme, especially the word "content" which is, if I may say, somewhat loaded?

Labour have said, in the short/medium term, that their intention is to make changes to the WCA to make it more fit for purpose, to use it as a tool to aid rather than a stick to beat; mind you, to achieve that they need to transform the culture at the DWP, but I think there will be some major changes there early on as the active colluders & enablers who have aided the Tories in their vindictiveness are removed.

Kate Green has said that she is treating the Spartacus "Beyond the Barriers" report very seriously and is on record as saying that although

she would not want to scrap the assessment immediately, but would want to replace it as soon as possible.

https://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... -election/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know some, including Ephe, would like WCA scrapped immediately and a return to IB while the situation is reassessed; and I know some, like Sue Marsh, feel that it may be a case of making improvements, albeit cosmetic ones, to the current system while that reassessment goes on. I'm lucky, I'm not having to live with the realities of this process on a daily basis, I can only imagine the plunging feeling in the stomach that accompanies the arrival of that brown envelope; so I don't know all the rights and wrongs of this whole thing. But I do think that is more than a little disingenuous to use the word "content" when, quite clearly, Labour are not content with the status quo; they may not be moving quickly enough, their policies may be a little opaque at present, but I think, I hope, that real change will happen ...... if people give it a chance to happen.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Mon 19 Jan, 2015 12:27 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
seeingclearly wrote:
HindleA wrote:Presume it is Green Party support for assisted dying.
Not just that they support assisted dying, but that they do so in light of the Dutch experience. When you look into it, from the perspective of actual disability rather than the potential for future sickness decline and so on, there is a trajectory of development from the original concept of assisted dying that is very worrying. This is not hypothetical at all. In Holland things have taken on a life of their own, and disabled people are rightly concerned.
I didn't realise they were dumb enough to support assisted dying.

I can see why somebody who has a disability wouldn't want that around. Given the fact relatives are prepared to let Granny languish in hospital rather than use her estate to pay for a care home, it isn't a stretch to see Granny being pressured into being put down.

TE,

I realise that this is basically a Labour Party supporters forum. But, I thought there was a desire to discuss and debate with others - particularly those of a left wing persuasion? I also thought there was a desire to be respectful? So how is calling people who have a different opinion to you 'dumb', respectful? And how does it help encourage debate or discussion? There are approx 50,000 Green party members who will either agree with assisted suicide in one form or another, or not be strongly against it. You have just called them all dumb. Any one of them could be looking at this forum and, seeing your comments, decide not to join. That doesn't begin to cover Green inclined people who aren't members plus other leftish people who may have a similar view on assisted suicide.

I said the other night that there are sometimes snide digs about Green's on here and mostly when I see them, I trundle off and make a cuppa rather than bite. The fact that I mostly bite my tongue doesn't mean I'm not ever offended or annoyed by such comments. I try to empathise with the view points of fly the nest forum users because basically that's what I'm like in real life. There are a lot of good people on here, who post good links, pick up on points, give an alternative analysis etc. No single one of us could cover all that on our own. Still, who cares what I think, what with me being 'dumb' an all.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Mon 19 Jan, 2015 12:39 am

Above, I am not accusing you of being dumb, but a policy proposing assisted dying is in my view dumb.

Why is it dumb, because it is a policy that exposes an awful lot of very vulnerable people to huge risks and this is almost never considered by any of the newspaper articles promoting the idea. It assumes all people are reasonable (they aren't) and that there will always be adequate safeguards (there won't).