Tuesday 20th January 2015

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:54 pm

I appreciate Tizme me too.

I got quite combative with Greens because Temulkar was the main man- no insult intended again him.

Tizme's style is different, and I should have a different style too.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:59 pm

I'm beginning to compare the situation we're in to a third world country facing famine.

Their rich politicians are crooked and inept, and thousands are starving.

The politicians can be replaced every five years but that's long term.

In the meantime thousands are starving.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:59 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Can I just say that I greatly appreciate's Tizme's postings here, and can understand it if they sometimes feel a bit intimidated that this site is in general so strongly (even if not uncritically) pro-Labour; it can feel sometimes as if they are being bludgeoned a bit to fall into line. It genuinely isn't meant that way, though

That's a good post Anatoly. I've been trying to think creatively and constructively about what would be my best suggestion and outcome to support the left generally - help the Greens - and yet not split the anti-Tory vote to the degree that we all end up getting the Tories. So far the best thought I've come up with is to decide to look harder at the Green's 12 target seats and see if there is any possibility that in some of them Labour are very unlikely to be part of the real fight so there would be the chance of reciprocal tactical voting for Green by Labour bods. Probably pie in the sky ... I know. Also as Tizme says Labour needs to offer Greens something to vote for ... be interesting to know what that 'something' might be, what would do it?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:04 pm

: Sorry Theres No NHS Left.jpg (27.7 KiB) Viewed 8869 times

Mike Gapes MP retweeted
David Schneider ‏@davidschneider 4h4 hours ago
Seems the Tories have already drafted a note to leave Labour if they lose the election.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:07 pm

Barnet council ‘engaged in social cleansing’ at West Hendon estate
Residents say Conservative authority’s actions mean wealthy people will replace working class and alter makeup of electorate
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... est-hendon

This is Shirley Porter's Westminster to the nth power - new styley.

Bastards.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:10 pm

Tizme1 wrote: Everyone is thinking about how awful its going to be if we have another 5 years of the Tories. We Greens are also talking about how awful its going to be if we continue to have this same situation for years and years to come. Maybe even right up to the point where everyone says "oh dear, we seem to have totally fucked the planet up" as the lights go out.

I left my first "career" to "save the planet" and am sorry to say I don't think "The Green's" policies - either in the UK or anywhere else - are going to save the planet any time soon. The only thing (in my view) that can possibly go any way towards that is the building of an effective global coalition to rid the world of the stranglehold of the multinationals' beancounters and the doctrine of the bottom line. Fragmentation is part of the problem, not part of the solution. There are better ways to get green issues on the agenda.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:19 pm

Look, Polls are not really showing a Green surge, they are showing an edging up of support, well one is, others less so (I am ignoring Ashcroft as his stuff is all over the place).

We are a long way from an election and the polls will change many times between now and then.

The Tories are stuck, let's all just chill for a bit.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:24 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:
yahyah wrote:@Tizme ''Many Greens want their votes counting in the final % for the Greens so in 2020 we won't be shut out yet again by the Broadcasters and Ofcom.''

Do you think for many Green voters having a surge in voting %, and the chance to push themselves forward in 2020 would be more important than living with the havoc another five years of a Tory government would cause ?

I know some on the extreme left almost want to be living under the cosh, in order to foment [ferment ?, suppose both could apply] a change in class conciousness.

Maybe it's because I'm getting old, at 58 I want anti-Tory jam today, not pie in the sky tomorrow.
Yahyah, OK, we vote for Labour even though we don't agree with their policies, so the next 5 years won't be quite as bad as being under a Tory government. And then in 2020 we'll hear the same arguments. And won't be on an even playing field to put forward our views. And 5 years after that in 2025 we'll hear the same arguments, and five years after that...........

Greens think beyond the next five years. You see we aren't just thinking of the people alive today, we're thinking of future generations too. We'd kind of like there to be a viable planet for them. Not to mention we think our social policies are much fairer than Labours. And age has nothing to do with it - I'm 54. Nor does wanting to effect a change in class conciousness.
The latest? When someone with a baby is sanctioned the babies milk tokens will be withdrawn, and food banks don't provide baby milk.

Tizme, I sympathise with your aims and I have six grandchildren whose future is important, but we urgently need change now, otherwise innocents from this generation will never get the chance to grow up and have children of their own. Labour might not be perfect, but we need action because in the here and now a lot of people have nothing.

Labour under Blair did a lot of things wrong, but they also did a hell of a lot that was good and right.

Ohso, I totally get what you're saying. So do many Greens. And that is why its a dilemma for us. Because we don't think Labour have the right polices. We think they are still following neo liberal policies plus buying in to the whole austerity thing. But, we recognise they aren't as bad as the Tories.

And I agree Labour did both good and bad things. But when push comes to shove, we had 13 years of Labour and they still followed the Neo Liberal agenda. Which is why we're losing patience. What is there to suggest this time round it would be different? Seems to me we'd still be heading the same way just slower.

Can you tell me a bit more about the withdrawal of milk tokens if a parent is sanctioned? Is it something in the news today? I've not been able to catch up on all the news today because of dealing with other stuff.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:24 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30896813

Oh look Cameron's content filter (it is not a porn filter as it blocks all content unsuitable for under 13s!!) will be turned on for sky subscribers in time for the election.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:25 pm

DRAFT UNIVERSAL CREDIT (WORK-RELATED
REQUIREMENTS) IN WORK PILOT SCHEME AND
AMENDMENT REGULATIONS 2015

Wednesday 14 January 2015

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 114s01.pdf

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:29 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Can I just say that I greatly appreciate's Tizme's postings here, and can understand it if they sometimes feel a bit intimidated that this site is in general so strongly (even if not uncritically) pro-Labour; it can feel sometimes as if they are being bludgeoned a bit to fall into line. It genuinely isn't meant that way, though

Thanks AK. I have taken to switching my Polly-Anna chip on when posting. When my Polly-Anna chip is activated, I can find a positive in any situation. Well almost.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:31 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I appreciate Tizme me too.

I got quite combative with Greens because Temulkar was the main man- no insult intended again him.

Tizme's style is different, and I should have a different style too.

Thanks Tubby. I quite like the concept of having 'style' even though that isn't quite the sense you meant it in. I'm going to tell my family that "I have style doncha know"!

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:41 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Can I just say that I greatly appreciate's Tizme's postings here, and can understand it if they sometimes feel a bit intimidated that this site is in general so strongly (even if not uncritically) pro-Labour; it can feel sometimes as if they are being bludgeoned a bit to fall into line. It genuinely isn't meant that way, though
That's a good post Anatoly. I've been trying to think creatively and constructively about what would be my best suggestion and outcome to support the left generally - help the Greens - and yet not split the anti-Tory vote to the degree that we all end up getting the Tories. So far the best thought I've come up with is to decide to look harder at the Green's 12 target seats and see if there is any possibility that in some of them Labour are very unlikely to be part of the real fight so there would be the chance of reciprocal tactical voting for Green by Labour bods. Probably pie in the sky ... I know. Also as Tizme says Labour needs to offer Greens something to vote for ... be interesting to know what that 'something' might be, what would do it?

I suppose in an ideal world RR, some form of reciprocal voting would be good. I'll trade you Watford for Bristol West.

Seriously though, as to what Labour could offer Greens its difficult because our approach to policy making is much more holistic. I suppose environmental stuff. Though actually for me social justice is just as important. PR would probably be a good thing to offer but isn't going to happen. Even an agreement to treat us as equals in terms of party status might help though I realise Labour could only really speak for themselves with regards that.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:46 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Tizme1 wrote: Yahyah, OK, we vote for Labour even though we don't agree with their policies, so the next 5 years won't be quite as bad as being under a Tory government. And then in 2020 we'll hear the same arguments. And won't be on an even playing field to put forward our views. And 5 years after that in 2025 we'll hear the same arguments, and five years after that...........

Greens think beyond the next five years. You see we aren't just thinking of the people alive today, we're thinking of future generations too. We'd kind of like there to be a viable planet for them. Not to mention we think our social policies are much fairer than Labours. And age has nothing to do with it - I'm 54. Nor does wanting to effect a change in class conciousness.
The latest? When someone with a baby is sanctioned the babies milk tokens will be withdrawn, and food banks don't provide baby milk.

Tizme, I sympathise with your aims and I have six grandchildren whose future is important, but we urgently need change now, otherwise innocents from this generation will never get the chance to grow up and have children of their own. Labour might not be perfect, but we need action because in the here and now a lot of people have nothing.

Labour under Blair did a lot of things wrong, but they also did a hell of a lot that was good and right.
Ohso, I totally get what you're saying. So do many Greens. And that is why its a dilemma for us. Because we don't think Labour have the right polices. We think they are still following neo liberal policies plus buying in to the whole austerity thing. But, we recognise they aren't as bad as the Tories.

And I agree Labour did both good and bad things. But when push comes to shove, we had 13 years of Labour and they still followed the Neo Liberal agenda. Which is why we're losing patience. What is there to suggest this time round it would be different? Seems to me we'd still be heading the same way just slower.

Can you tell me a bit more about the withdrawal of milk tokens if a parent is sanctioned? Is it something in the news today? I've not been able to catch up on all the news today because of dealing with other stuff.

I've just picked up the info about the milk tokens from John Swindon on Twitter. Have posted what he says is the relevant documentation.

I don't have much time for the term 'neo liberal' No offence but it's a bit too 'precious' for the basic way I view politics.

There was much that Labour did to help the less well off. Sure Start is the first thing that springs to mind. I know life became a lot better for my son and his family under them.

Mr Ohso and I have always been the section of society where we were just over the threshold for Labour policies to ease our lot, but didn't have enough to benefit when the Tories got in. We're pretty much in the same situation now.

We used to have a long list of what Labour had achieved on the other FTN. I thought it was impressive the first time I saw it. I'd voted LibDem for much of Labours spell in office, and had lost touch. I'll see if I can find it.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:51 pm

@Tizme:

DRAFT UNIVERSAL CREDIT (WORK-RELATED
REQUIREMENTS) IN WORK PILOT SCHEME AND
AMENDMENT REGULATIONS 2015

Wednesday 14 January 2015

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 114s01.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:52 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30896813

Oh look Cameron's content filter (it is not a porn filter as it blocks all content unsuitable for under 13s!!) will be turned on for sky subscribers in time for the election.

Presumably that's going to block Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and Tumblr for a start, all of which have things you wouldn't want children to see on them. Not to mention all of the major TV channels. And all of the newspaper websites. Fabulous, that will endear Cameron to millions of people overnight!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 7:53 pm

What can Labour offer "Greens" ?

The removal from power of the Tory/LibDem coalition scum.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:01 pm

Here's our general cheerer upper:

Ukip in chaos as party turns on Farage over claim NHS cannot survive... while policy chief is sacked for not coming up with any policies
Ukip leader Nigel Farage raised prospect of privatising large parts of NHS
Claimed it was a 'debate we're all going to have to return to' to save NHS
But Ukip health spokesman Louise Bours slapped down Mr Farage
She said: 'The vast majority of Ukip members favour a state-funded NHS'
Ukip have replaced policy chief Tim Aker for failing to complete manifesto
Ukip's deputy chair Suzanne Evans is now drafted in to finish the manifesto
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rvive.html

I can't wait for the 'finished' manifesto. (Finished is the word I now immediately associate with the Lib Dems.)

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:01 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:What can Labour offer "Greens" ?

The removal from power of the Tory/LibDem coalition scum.

End of the badger cull for a nailed on certainty.

Continued ban on fox hunting.

A firm commitment to taking global warming seriously, and not appointing climate change deniers as environment minister.

An increased emphasis on renewable energy.

A ban on Fracking anywhere near water resources.

Actually I wonder if Labour will ban Fracking as a manifesto commitment, let some other European country take the risk.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:06 pm

Graham Armstrong ‏@cwugraham 29 mins29 minutes ago

895.4 thousand followers yet only 103 RT. Every single reply abusive.
Take the hint

#CAMERONyoureSACKED @David_Cameron

Sometimes you can get a laugh from politics.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:06 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tizme1 wrote: You want your vote to count for Labour in the final % counts in May to help justify a Labour led coalition if we have another hung Parliament. Many Greens want their votes counting in the final % for the Greens so in 2020 we won't be shut out yet again by the Broadcasters and Ofcom.

Everyone is thinking about how awful its going to be if we have another 5 years of the Tories. We Greens are also talking about how awful its going to be if we continue to have this same situation for years and years to come. Maybe even right up to the point where everyone says "oh dear, we seem to have totally fucked the planet up" as the lights go out.
Hi Tizme, glad you're still here. I understand the point about demonstrating the strength of Green support so the establishment can't deny them their due. The main reason I voted LibDem (in a safe Tory seat so my vote was wasted in any event, or so I thought) was to help demonstrate the strength of support for electoral reform. As it turned out, the LibDems were given ministerial briefs according to their share of vote rather than share of seats, so in some small way I did contribute to the evil we now suffer... Not that that's my point, more that electoral success can go beyond seats won even under this shitty FPTP system.

My other point is that I am thinking about years to come. I believe (and it's just a belief, not something I'd force on anyone else) that we face a turning point, and another five years of Tory-Lib government will set us on a path for twenty or thirty years, perhaps for ever. I believe it will mean much more privatisation, the end of the NHS as we know it, more demonisation and disenfranchisement of the poor and immigrants, and absolutely no more 'green crap', ever. Moreover it will set the centre ground as a basic acceptance of neoliberalism and the final nail in the coffin of the postwar consensus. That's my thinking.

But on that point of 'this same situation'... Genuine question, is it? I had the impression that Labour was way better on renewables than the Tories, with e.g. massive developments in offshore wind and a more sensible attitude to onshore wind, and there were a lot of pilots into wave and tidal. Or is it all too little too late?

I very much fear that too. I also fear that a Labour loss will spell the end of any hope of the party rediscovering its left wing, any defeat will be used by the Progress/New Labour wing as evidence that Miliband was just too left wing for the public, and they need to swing back to the Blairite so called centrist approach. So they would back the Tories in more and more cuts, more and more privatisation and much less regulation, which would be worse than ever for the environment. Then we really will in the "they're all the same" world that so many people argue for now. This is starting to feel like the last throw of the dice to me.

Post by **refitman** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:09 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Here's our general cheerer upper:
Ukip in chaos as party turns on Farage over claim NHS cannot survive... while policy chief is sacked for not coming up with any policies
Ukip leader Nigel Farage raised prospect of privatising large parts of NHS
Claimed it was a 'debate we're all going to have to return to' to save NHS
But Ukip health spokesman Louise Bours slapped down Mr Farage
She said: 'The vast majority of Ukip members favour a state-funded NHS'
Ukip have replaced policy chief Tim Aker for failing to complete manifesto
Ukip's deputy chair Suzanne Evans is now drafted in to finish the manifesto
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rvive.html
I can't wait for the 'finished' manifesto. (Finished is the word I now immediately associate with the Lib Dems.)

It's lucky Roger made a copy of their policies (snigger) from November. It will be interesting to do a compare & contrast when (if?) their manifesto comes out.

http://flythenest.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=286" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:09 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
Tizme1 wrote: You want your vote to count for Labour in the final % counts in May to help justify a Labour led coalition if we have another hung Parliament. Many Greens want their votes counting in the final % for the Greens so in 2020 we won't be shut out yet again by the Broadcasters and Ofcom.

Everyone is thinking about how awful its going to be if we have another 5 years of the Tories. We Greens are also talking about how awful its going to be if we continue to have this same situation for years and years to come. Maybe even right up to the point where everyone says "oh dear, we seem to have totally fucked the planet up" as the lights go out.
Hi Tizme, glad you're still here. I understand the point about demonstrating the strength of Green support so the establishment can't deny them their due. The main reason I voted LibDem (in a safe Tory seat so my vote was wasted in any event, or so I thought) was to help demonstrate the strength of support for electoral reform. As it turned out, the LibDems were given ministerial briefs according to their share of vote rather than share of seats, so in some small way I did contribute to the evil we now suffer... Not that that's my point, more that electoral success can go beyond seats won even under this shitty FPTP system.

My other point is that I am thinking about years to come. I believe (and it's just a belief, not something I'd force on anyone else) that we face a turning point, and another five years of Tory-Lib government will set us on a path for twenty or thirty years, perhaps for ever. I believe it will mean much more privatisation, the end of the NHS as we know it, more demonisation and disenfranchisement of the poor and immigrants, and absolutely no more 'green crap', ever. Moreover it will set the centre ground as a basic acceptance of neoliberalism and the final nail in the coffin of the postwar consensus. That's my thinking.

But on that point of 'this same situation'... Genuine question, is it? I had the impression that Labour was way better on renewables than the Tories, with e.g. massive developments in offshore wind and a more sensible attitude to onshore wind, and there were a lot of pilots into wave and tidal. Or is it all too little too late?

I agree with you that this seems to be a pivotal moment. Or a turning point as you say. And you may well be correct about the outcome if we land up with a Tory or Tory led government. But in the long term, I fear it will go the same way if we have a Labour government though at a slower pace. Though I do trust Burnham on the NHS far more than I'd ever trust a Tory. Burnham won't be around for ever though. Yes Labour are again probably a bit better on renewables but it does feel a bit too little too late.

I can't help but think back to 18 years of Tory government that left us all practically on our knees. In 1997 I couldn't wait to get to the polling station and put my big bold cross next to Claire Ward's name! I put my two eldest children to bed and left them with my husband that evening. Took my 6 month old baby with me though, round to a friends where we sat and watched the results coming in all night. We cheered as each Labour result came in. And we wept. Actual tears of joy [and probably relief] when we knew that the Tories were out. Yes we knew that it was on the cards but, after all those years and the bitter disappointment of 1992, we didn't dare really believe until it happened.

Fast forward a few years though to 2001 and I'd already realised my joy had been naive. I'd never been over crazed about Blair [then again, I don't have the visceral hatred of him now that many people do], but I had thought that somehow they'd move away from neo liberal policies. I was wrong. Though as I've said previously, I agree they did do some good stuff.

On the point of 'the same situation' though, I was also talking in the political sense of us as a party. We will keep hearing the same arguments until at some point we say enough is enough. If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got!

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:13 pm

That thing about UKIP not being able to finish their manifesto on time is fascinating. Presumably Mr Akers isn't just a lazy biffer who couldn't be arsed to do it, there must be some serious disagreements within the ranks as to what's going to be in the thing. I always thought that writing a coherent manifesto would prove to be a nightmare for them, when the rank and file membership are so far removed from the money men who actually fund the party.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:14 pm

Found it on our old site.

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
2. Low mortgage rates.
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52 per hour.
4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.
8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
9. Employment is at its highest level ever.
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.
11. 85,000 more nurses.
12. 32,000 more doctors.
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.
19. Restored city-wide government to London.
20. Record number of students in higher education.
21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.
33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997: the shortest waiting times since NHS records began.
35. Banned fox hunting.
36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
37. Free TV licences for over-75s.
38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.
42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
43. Free eye test for over 60s.
44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.
46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.
48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.
49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school. (1-50 taken from the Telegraph)
51. Gender Recognition Act 2004/5
52. Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland.
53. Walk-in Health Centres and GP out of hours Service.
54. Digital hearing aids, through the NHS.
55. Children’s Act 2004, 2008 – Every Child Matters.
56. Introduced Smoke–Free legislation, 2007 – child health improving continually since.
57. Retail Distribution Review – ending commission for financial advisers
58. Introduced legislation to make company ‘blacklisting’ unlawful.
59. The Equality Act.
60. Established the Disability Rights Commission in 1999.
61. The Human Rights Act.
62 Signed the European Social Chapter, introduced measures including: four weeks’ paid holiday; a right to parental leave; extended maternity leave; a new right to request flexible working; and the same protection for part-time workers as full time workers.
63. Launched £1.5 billion Housing Pledge of new affordable housing, largest program of council house building for twenty years.
64. The Autism Act 2009, which is the first ever disability-specific law in England.

With thanks to AngryAsWell.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:14 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:Sorry, this is @Tizme, my browser is making it very difficult for me to edit in post so I can't quote. You ask what makes us think Labour will be different next time after 13 years following the neoliberal agenda. It's one thing, really - Ed Miliband. There's a reason the neoliberal Blairite dinosaurs like Mandelson and Milburn, as well as the likes of DFH and Rentoul, not to mention Blair himself hate him and attack him every chance they get, it's because he represents a significant difference. He genuinely believes in fair and redistributive taxation and publicly owned and run public services, and that markets must be regulated so society can benefit from them and be spared their worst excesses. The fact that he believes the market has limits and needs to be controlled by the state marks him out as some way back from neoliberalism, and even Blairism.

Again, this is just my view - a question was put and I'm putting my response. I know this is just degrees of the same thing for many people, but to me it represents a small but important break with the direction of travel.

I am that rare oddity, a person that thinks Milband is a positive attribute for the Labour party!

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:14 pm

This man thinks Labour are the only sensible choice this time. Who am I to argue with him?

http://labourlist.org/2015/01/watch-lab ... d-britain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:17 pm

ohsocynical wrote:@Tizme:

DRAFT UNIVERSAL CREDIT (WORK-RELATED
REQUIREMENTS) IN WORK PILOT SCHEME AND
AMENDMENT REGULATIONS 2015

Wednesday 14 January 2015

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... 114s01.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for that ohso.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:17 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:This man thinks Labour are the only sensible choice this time. Who am I to argue with him?

http://labourlist.org/2015/01/watch-lab ... d-britain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Harry is in fact THE man.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:19 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:What can Labour offer "Greens" ?

The removal from power of the Tory/LibDem coalition scum.
End of the badger cull for a nailed on certainty.

Continued ban on fox hunting.

A firm commitment to taking global warming seriously, and not appointing climate change deniers as environment minister.

An increased emphasis on renewable energy.

A ban on Fracking anywhere near water resources.

Actually I wonder if Labour will ban Fracking as a manifesto commitment, let some other European country take the risk.

All good suggestions. A total ban on fracking would certainly be a major thing.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:22 pm

Looking at the list of Labour's achievements, I don't see it as neo-liberal, left, right, centre, sideways, up, or down. I just see it as making people's lives a little better.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:24 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:What can Labour offer "Greens" ?

The removal from power of the Tory/LibDem coalition scum.
End of the badger cull for a nailed on certainty.

Continued ban on fox hunting.

A firm commitment to taking global warming seriously, and not appointing climate change deniers as environment minister.

An increased emphasis on renewable energy.

A ban on Fracking anywhere near water resources.

Actually I wonder if Labour will ban Fracking as a manifesto commitment, let some other European country take the risk.
All good suggestions. A total ban on fracking would certainly be a major thing.

The others are all already givens. I hope they count for something. They certainly do in my book. Imagine what it's going to be like if those don't happen ....

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:27 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:Sorry, this is @Tizme, my browser is making it very difficult for me to edit in post so I can't quote. You ask what makes us think Labour will be different next time after 13 years following the neoliberal agenda. It's one thing, really - Ed Miliband. There's a reason the neoliberal Blairite dinosaurs like Mandelson and Milburn, as well as the likes of DFH and Rentoul, not to mention Blair himself hate him and attack him every chance they get, it's because he represents a significant difference. He genuinely believes in fair and redistributive taxation and publicly owned and run public services, and that markets must be regulated so society can benefit from them and be spared their worst excesses. The fact that he believes the market has limits and needs to be controlled by the state marks him out as some way back from neoliberalism, and even Blairism.

Again, this is just my view - a question was put and I'm putting my response. I know this is just degrees of the same thing for many people, but to me it represents a small but important break with the direction of travel.
I am that rare oddity, a person that thinks Milband is a positive attribute for the Labour party!

No, not that rare at all, it's just that you don't work for the MSM. There are quite a lot of us.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:29 pm

Tish wrote:That thing about UKIP not being able to finish their manifesto on time is fascinating. Presumably Mr Akers isn't just a lazy biffer who couldn't be arsed to do it, there must be some serious disagreements within the ranks as to what's going to be in the thing. I always thought that writing a coherent manifesto would prove to be a nightmare for them, when the rank and file membership are so far removed from the money men who actually fund the party.

Nigel seems to be the worst offender. He changes his mind at every turn. He'll say something one day, find people don't like it and immediately back-track. He's on a par with Cameron.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:30 pm

Anyone see this Labour-bashing Guardian article?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... rification" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The council reply.

Homelessness, a spiralling housing market, funding for homes slashed by government – London is in a housing crisis. Locally, Waltham Forest council is doing what it can. Aditya Chakrabortty’s article (The families cheated out of their homes – for the sin of being poor, 13 January) is couched in emotive language with a simplistic narrative: bad Labour council wants to turf local residents out, then flog off flats to the highest bidder – just like Tories. In fact, no resident of Leytonstone’s Wigg and Walsh towers will have to leave the estate; all will be offered a flat on the redeveloped estate; a third block will be built between the two towers so residents will move only a few metres during renovation. We have spoken to residents personally, and the vast majority want a radical solution.

This is because half the residents live in overcrowded homes. It’s unacceptable that a family of seven is squeezed into a rundown two-bedroom flat. We did a minimal revamp a decade ago; a simple cosmetic change would do nothing to tackle overcrowding. Our scheme will deliver desperately needed bigger, better homes. The government won’t fund this, so some flats will be sold to help pay for the scheme. But 200 will be council-owned, wholly or partially. Mr Chakrabortty didn’t mention that by 2020 we will have built 12,000 new homes, many affordable council houses. If he visits the estate, we will happily introduce him to the families who are thanking us for making the decision to tackle overcrowding and get them good homes.
Cllr Khevyn Limbajee
Cabinet lead for housing, London borough of Waltham Forest

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:34 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Found it on our old site.

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.
2. Low mortgage rates.
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52 per hour.
4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.
5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.
7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.
8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.
9. Employment is at its highest level ever.
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.
11. 85,000 more nurses.
12. 32,000 more doctors.
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.
15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.
16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.
18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.
19. Restored city-wide government to London.
20. Record number of students in higher education.
21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.
22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.
23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.
25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.
27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.
28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.
29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.
30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.
31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.
32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.
33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.
34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997: the shortest waiting times since NHS records began.
35. Banned fox hunting.
36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.
37. Free TV licences for over-75s.
38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.
39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.
40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.
41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.
42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.
43. Free eye test for over 60s.
44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.
45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.
46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.
47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.
48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.
49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.
50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school. (1-50 taken from the Telegraph)
51. Gender Recognition Act 2004/5
52. Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland.
53. Walk-in Health Centres and GP out of hours Service.
54. Digital hearing aids, through the NHS.
55. Children’s Act 2004, 2008 – Every Child Matters.
56. Introduced Smoke–Free legislation, 2007 – child health improving continually since.
57. Retail Distribution Review – ending commission for financial advisers
58. Introduced legislation to make company ‘blacklisting’ unlawful.
59. The Equality Act.
60. Established the Disability Rights Commission in 1999.
61. The Human Rights Act.
62 Signed the European Social Chapter, introduced measures including: four weeks’ paid holiday; a right to parental leave; extended maternity leave; a new right to request flexible working; and the same protection for part-time workers as full time workers.
63. Launched £1.5 billion Housing Pledge of new affordable housing, largest program of council house building for twenty years.
64. The Autism Act 2009, which is the first ever disability-specific law in England.

With thanks to AngryAsWell.

Most of that is probably good though some things are either questionable in terms of stats and spin, and some are questionable polices even though the intention was good and in the short term it helped many people. In particular there I'm thinking of tax credits. I'm not going to get into a debate on the various policies though because I've already said they did some good things. They also brought in some crap laws. One of which affected me very personally and caused huge amounts of stress, worry, and sleepless nights at what was an already worrying and stressful time. Oddly, that doesn't affect my opinion of them now though I would very much like to see the law changed.

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:37 pm

Hi all by the way.

Quick question;

There's been a lot of mention in the Mainstream Media about the rise of anti-Semitism of late, when will they stop chasing this pointless story and return to the regular critiques of that weird-looking Miliband and his passion for bacon sandwiches?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:38 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:This man thinks Labour are the only sensible choice this time. Who am I to argue with him?

http://labourlist.org/2015/01/watch-lab ... d-britain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Harry is in fact THE man.

On one of his Tweets he said [roughly]

My time is nearly over on this earth. I'd like to know when I'm gone the NHS is in safe hands.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:38 pm

Listening to the File on 4 programme re benefit sanctions. It's very very good ... and depressing and infuriating. Despair and fury ... sums up the coalition.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:41 pm

diGriz wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:
RobertSnozers wrote:Sorry, this is @Tizme, my browser is making it very difficult for me to edit in post so I can't quote. You ask what makes us think Labour will be different next time after 13 years following the neoliberal agenda. It's one thing, really - Ed Miliband. There's a reason the neoliberal Blairite dinosaurs like Mandelson and Milburn, as well as the likes of DFH and Rentoul, not to mention Blair himself hate him and attack him every chance they get, it's because he represents a significant difference. He genuinely believes in fair and redistributive taxation and publicly owned and run public services, and that markets must be regulated so society can benefit from them and be spared their worst excesses. The fact that he believes the market has limits and needs to be controlled by the state marks him out as some way back from neoliberalism, and even Blairism.

Again, this is just my view - a question was put and I'm putting my response. I know this is just degrees of the same thing for many people, but to me it represents a small but important break with the direction of travel.
I am that rare oddity, a person that thinks Milband is a positive attribute for the Labour party!
No, not that rare at all, it's just that you don't work for the MSM. There are quite a lot of us.

Aw come on, give me some credit - a paid up member, regular activist, and candidate for another party - stating publicly that Ed Miliband is an asset for Labour. Surely that makes me a little bit special? No? *sigh* Never mind, my children often tell me I'm 'special' - that is a compliment right?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:43 pm

Isn't it amazing when the BBC actually presents a programme or gives a summary that impartially gives you the bones of a problem.

Perhaps they're finally taking some of the criticism on board?

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:44 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
diGriz wrote:
Tizme1 wrote: I am that rare oddity, a person that thinks Milband is a positive attribute for the Labour party!
No, not that rare at all, it's just that you don't work for the MSM. There are quite a lot of us.
Aw come on, give me some credit - a paid up member, regular activist, and candidate for another party - stating publicly that Ed Miliband is an asset for Labour. Surely that makes me a little bit special? No? *sigh* Never mind, my children often tell me I'm 'special' - that is a compliment right?

All right, I'll give you that one.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:45 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:This man thinks Labour are the only sensible choice this time. Who am I to argue with him?

http://labourlist.org/2015/01/watch-lab ... d-britain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Harry is in fact THE man.
On one of his Tweets he said [roughly]

My time is nearly over on this earth. I'd like to know when I'm gone the NHS is in safe hands.

Speaking of such things, I wonder if Claire Rayner has stepped up on her haunting Cameron activities of late.........

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:47 pm

I don't know if all of what the council say is reliable, but I presume that the bit about all the residents being offered flats on the redeveloped estate is accurate. Bear in mind, lots will be leaseholders who bought their flats years ago and could be happy to take the money and move away.

It's also worth pointing out that the number of council homes is one measure, another is the size of those homes. as the council point out. If they can refurbish a 2 bed and sell it for good money and build a three bed, isn't that good?

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:48 pm

diGriz wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:
diGriz wrote: No, not that rare at all, it's just that you don't work for the MSM. There are quite a lot of us.
Aw come on, give me some credit - a paid up member, regular activist, and candidate for another party - stating publicly that Ed Miliband is an asset for Labour. Surely that makes me a little bit special? No? *sigh* Never mind, my children often tell me I'm 'special' - that is a compliment right?
All right, I'll give you that one.

Cheers. See it's not so hard to agree with a Greenie after all.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:48 pm

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 5 mins5 minutes ago
Every single by-election poll from 2010-2013 overstated the share that CON would achieve. The Eastleigh record

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 8:52 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:I don't know if all of what the council say is reliable, but I presume that the bit about all the residents being offered flats on the redeveloped estate is accurate. Bear in mind, lots will be leaseholders who bought their flats years ago and could be happy to take the money and move away.

It's also worth pointing out that the number of council homes is one measure, another is the size of those homes. as the council point out. If they can refurbish a 2 bed and sell it for good money and build a three bed, isn't that good?

Yeah 'cos then the Government can clobber the occupants for bedroom tax.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 9:03 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:What can Labour offer "Greens" ?

The removal from power of the Tory/LibDem coalition scum.
End of the badger cull for a nailed on certainty.

Continued ban on fox hunting.

A firm commitment to taking global warming seriously, and not appointing climate change deniers as environment minister.

An increased emphasis on renewable energy.

A ban on Fracking anywhere near water resources.

Actually I wonder if Labour will ban Fracking as a manifesto commitment, let some other European country take the risk.
All good suggestions. A total ban on fracking would certainly be a major thing.

Since Fracking is:

Environmentally hideous
A blight on house prices in fracked areas.
Of no economic value to the fracked people.
Of limited value to the country.
A technology that you want to avoid for as long as possible (preferably forever)
An economic basket case.

Surely announcing a ban would be an absolute nailed on winner, worth a few votes in marginal seats as well.

Why wouldn't you do it? (And announce it in front of cheering residents a week into the campaign).

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 9:05 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 5 mins5 minutes ago
Every single by-election poll from 2010-2013 overstated the share that CON would achieve. The Eastleigh record

Thanks Dan

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 9:15 pm

Good-evening, everyone. I discovered I've lately been writing angrily & hard towards Tories & Tory supporters below the line. I regret I've 'othered' Tories in several posts I've written recently. I think it's healthy & normal to express anger in writing, in words said. Abusing others in words or actions is never okay. I don't think my posts were abusive. However, I wrote my words not mindful of how angry I was when writing them. It would have been best for me to put my words away for a time in order to write about my anger over Tory policy with clarity.

Tories are people too. I don't like Tory policies. Fine. But I mustn't forget what is human in me is human in another.

To blame everyone sharing a spiritual belief system without regard to each as a human being independent of their religion & conduct is wrong.

Dear Eric Pickles – why single out Islam for this patronising treatment?
You question our loyalty for no reason other than our spiritual beliefs. Will you ever sit down with the diverse peoples who make up Britain and really listen to us?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -treatment

"In a letter sent to more than 1,000 Islamic leaders (pdf),[Eric] Pickles stressed that he was proud of the way Muslims in Britain had responded to the Paris terror attacks, but said there was more work to do in rooting out extremists and preventing young people from being radicalised."

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... es_PDF.pdf

I question the wisdom of Pickles sending this letter to Islamic leaders. I don't think it appropriate & I think it's divisive.

I've been away from my desk today examining my thoughts while getting some work done. I wanted to write here I'm uncomfortable with the posts below the line on that CIF article. Not all followers of Islam are violent. Not all followers of Islam advocate or condone violence.