Tuesday 20th January 2015

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 3:03 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Interesting ICM poll in the G.

This one picks up a Green Surge(TM) but to be fair their previous figures were very low for the Greens. Lib Dems losing to Green, Tories gaining from kippers, labour vote steady.

Not the Graun headline I note!

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 3:19 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Interesting ICM poll in the G.

This one picks up a Green Surge(TM) but to be fair their previous figures were very low for the Greens. Lib Dems losing to Green, Tories gaining from kippers, labour vote steady.
Not the Graun headline I note!

How ridiculous! "Labour lead falls" is hideous English if nothing else!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 3:25 pm

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2015/01/ ... nk-debate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Morris MP. Lying in Parliament.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 3:29 pm

@Giselle

Sorry, I did see your comment [copied below] yesterday but this is the first chance I've had to respond. I'm adding in my responses.

I'm on a Labour Party supporters' forum and FlyTheNest is not it. Even if it were, as you try to accuse it of being, "a Labour Party supporters forum", we all listen to other views and always have. Doesn't mean I have to like them. You write well and are worth reading - and please don't regard that as patronising since it's just a statement of fact.

Response: Why is my saying this is basically a Labour supporting forum, an accusation? Is there something wrong with a forum being Labour supportive? The majority of people on here, intend to vote Labour for one reason or another. It is therefore basically a Labour supporting forum.

This is a forum which was set up to accommodate those commenters who were lost to the Guardian when they introduced the effing nesting system. There were many of them who subsequently identified themselves on this forum as voters for the LibDems, Greens, Plaid, etc., I'm not sure, but I think I've only recognised one Tory on here (who tried to sabotage the site IMHO). But on this forum there has been plenty, and it's continuing, criticism of Labour and its decisions.

Response: I'm aware of how, why, and when this forum was set up. I read from the beginning. I was wary of joining or of saying too much due to previous unpleasant experiences on a forum [nothing to do with politics]. You say that various posters identified themselves as voters for other parties. Some stated they had voted LD at the previous election but would not be doing so again. As to any others who voted Green, or Plaid etc, where are they now?

Tell me please @Tizme1, is there a Green Party Supporters' Forum - which is not the Green Party's web site - as full of respect and toleration for others views as we are here? Just asking - not really interested, of course, as I'm a closed mind bitch who just happened to join the Labour Party after the last cobbled together, bastardised government was formed - although I have always voted Labour (Dad was Tory and Mam was Liberal!) - and won't be visiting it because you and a few others already provide good "Greens" content on here.

and I'm not in a position try to convert some Greens there to Labour.

Response: I'm sure there are Green Party Supporters' Forums not on the Green Party web site but I'm not a member of any of them. As you say, you're not really interested in any such forums anyway so little point in my finding an answer to the question. I wouldn't call you a 'bitch'. Closed minded? Hmm, sorry but to an extent yes. Not in general, but with regards to the next election. But then I totally understand why and as a Green, I have to also weigh up those fears, against longer term outcomes.

I feel that I have to add to my post to you ..... no offence intended. I shouldn't really have to, should I?

Response: No you shouldn't. And by the same token, I shouldn't have to feel like I have to almost apologise for being a Green. Frankly, its not my fault that the Labour Party say nothing to attract my vote other than "yeah but we're not as bad as the Tories".

55DegreesNorth · Post by **55DegreesNorth** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 3:32 pm

It's obviously open season on rubbish Christian Free Schools. Grindon Hall in Sunderland just got a kicking (apols if this has been posted previously).

http://www.grindonhall.com/Mainfolder/H ... y-2015.pdf

Oh, and Afternoon folks.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 3:34 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
BigSocietyHasFailed.jpg

David Cameron's Big Society agenda has failed and left the UK more divided than before, a think tank has concluded.
The report by Civil Exchange found that the results of the strategy had been "largely negative", with people feeling unable to influence local decisions, a widespread disenchantment with the political system and weaker communities.
Efforts to encourage wider involvement in delivering public services had resulted in a "race to the bottom" on contract price and reduced transparency and accountability, the report said.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/art ... ailed.html
Sheeesh, could that be more damning ...? How does this man and his fellow callous troughers get away with so many abject strategy and policy failures?

And lets not forget the various 'charities' set up to carry forward Dave's Big Society were found to be suspect and were, according to the Independent some months ago, being investigated.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 3:41 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... -blockages" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Councils get emergency £25m for social care to tackle hospital blockages"

Not doing very well with their headlines today.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 4:08 pm

Forgot to say - afternoon all.

On one of the G articles, Clegg is reported as saying that in the event of a hung vote, he would talk to the party with the most votes first. Does anyone know if that is what he said or is it a typo? I ask because prior to the 2010 election, I'm sure Clegg said he would talk to the party with the most seats first. A subtle but important difference. An indication of Clegg's preference maybe?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 4:13 pm

Tizme1 wrote:Forgot to say - afternoon all.

On one of the G articles, Clegg is reported as saying that in the event of a hung vote, he would talk to the party with the most votes first. Does anyone know if that is what he said or is it a typo? I ask because prior to the 2010 election, I'm sure Clegg said he would talk to the party with the most seats first. A subtle but important difference. An indication of Clegg's preference maybe?

Re: Clegg. I get this mental picture of a dog running from table to table begging for scraps.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 4:27 pm

More depressing stories of social cleansing in London. Pickles has the final say on this one, so we can guess which way it will go.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... est-hendon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 4:30 pm

HindleA wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... -blockages

"Councils get emergency £25m for social care to tackle hospital blockages"

Not doing very well with their headlines today.

BTL, I see that the Tories are getting a well merited kicking for their cynicism and meanness - £25m? The posters saying 'far too little; far too late' and pointing out that the Tories have slashed LA funding are absolutely spot on. It barely amounts to a sticking plaster in any real sense, particularly given that come April the wound has the plaster ripped off and it's back to square one - or worse.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 4:32 pm

Lord Ashcroft ‏@LordAshcroft 2 hrs2 hours ago
Guardian/ICM poll
LAB33%
CON 30%
UKIP 11%
LDEM 11%
GRNS 9%

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 4:35 pm

ErnstRemarx wrote:
HindleA wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... -blockages

"Councils get emergency £25m for social care to tackle hospital blockages"

Not doing very well with their headlines today.
BTL, I see that the Tories are getting a well merited kicking for their cynicism and meanness - £25m? The posters saying 'far too little; far too late' and pointing out that the Tories have slashed LA funding are absolutely spot on. It barely amounts to a sticking plaster in any real sense, particularly given that come April the wound has the plaster ripped off and it's back to square one - or worse.

Earlier today I listned to an article about the shortage of District Nurses who used to be invaluable for getting people out of hospital on time.
All the money in the world won't make up for the time it will take to train a new batch.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 4:41 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:Forgot to say - afternoon all.

On one of the G articles, Clegg is reported as saying that in the event of a hung vote, he would talk to the party with the most votes first. Does anyone know if that is what he said or is it a typo? I ask because prior to the 2010 election, I'm sure Clegg said he would talk to the party with the most seats first. A subtle but important difference. An indication of Clegg's preference maybe?
Re: Clegg. I get this mental picture of a dog running from table to table begging for scraps.

I'm going to have that image in my mind for hours if not days now. Thing is, there is some thought that the Tories may get more votes in May, but Labour may win more seats. Its only happened twice before I believe so not sure what the actual chances are.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 4:41 pm

55DegreesNorth wrote:It's obviously open season on rubbish Christian Free Schools. Grindon Hall in Sunderland just got a kicking (apols if this has been posted previously).

http://www.grindonhall.com/Mainfolder/H ... y-2015.pdf

Oh, and Afternoon folks.

Afternoon, and nice to see you here.

Curse of Toby Young. Thought he was on to a nice easy one, attacking the black bishop bloke who doesn't like free schools.

2 disasters revealed in 2 days.

WelshIan · Post by **WelshIan** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 4:42 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:https://tompride.wordpress.com/2015/01/ ... nk-debate/

David Morris MP. Lying in Parliament.

There needs to be some sort of sanction for MPs lying to Parliament.

There's a petition here:
https://www.change.org/p/it-s-entirely- ... inghistory" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 4:45 pm

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 17 hrs17 hours ago
SNP poll surge not being seen in post IndyRef Scottish local by-elections.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 4:57 pm

Tizme1 wrote:Forgot to say - afternoon all.

On one of the G articles, Clegg is reported as saying that in the event of a hung vote, he would talk to the party with the most votes first. Does anyone know if that is what he said or is it a typo? I ask because prior to the 2010 election, I'm sure Clegg said he would talk to the party with the most seats first. A subtle but important difference. An indication of Clegg's preference maybe?

I'm sure Clegg himself doesn't know, and if he did we couldn't trust him to tell the truth.

& that's why I would urge everyone to consider their vote carefully if they don't want the Tories or a Tory led coalition in power next May.

It won't matter if Labour have the most seats, if they have a smaller % of votes than the Tories then it will be argued they have less legitimacy to try and form a coalition.

Of course, for anyone who thinks that Labour are just 'red Tories' that may not matter.

I'm lucky, my household will not suffer that much under a Tory or Tory led government.
But I care about those who will.

I want my vote counting for Labour in the final percentage counts in May, to help justify a Labour led coalition if we have another hung Parliament.
That's why I will be voting Labour.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:03 pm

I would never normally encourage anyone to read Dan Hodges, but todays effort is surely an insight into his tortured mind. It's all about "the shy Tories," how the guilty middle classes are pretending to support Labour while secretly planning to vote Tory becouse of Milibands terrifying left wing proposals. Apparently people have been telling him this at dinner parties and at the school gates, how they are "preparing their emotional break from the Labour Party." Whether any of these people are actually real, or whether he's just decided to share his own fevered angsting with a wider audiance I'll leave you to be the judge of.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general ... abour.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:07 pm

Tish wrote:I would never normally encourage anyone to read Dan Hodges, but todays effort is surely an insight into his tortured mind. It's all about "the shy Tories," how the guilty middle classes are pretending to support Labour while secretly planning to vote Tory becouse of Milibands terrifying left wing proposals. Apparently people have been telling him this at dinner parties and at the school gates, how they are "preparing their emotional break from the Labour Party." Whether any of these people are actually real, or whether he's just decided to share his own fevered angsting with a wider audiance I'll leave you to be the judge of.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general ... abour.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It would almost be funny, if it wasn't so scary, to see how Miliband's Red, too left wing policies square with the ''Labour are the same as the Tories'' brigade's view that there's not a fag paper between the two major parties.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:14 pm

Tish wrote:I would never normally encourage anyone to read Dan Hodges, but todays effort is surely an insight into his tortured mind. It's all about "the shy Tories," how the guilty middle classes are pretending to support Labour while secretly planning to vote Tory becouse of Milibands terrifying left wing proposals. Apparently people have been telling him this at dinner parties and at the school gates, how they are "preparing their emotional break from the Labour Party." Whether any of these people are actually real, or whether he's just decided to share his own fevered angsting with a wider audiance I'll leave you to be the judge of.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general ... abour.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, he's inventive, I'll give him that much. His idea of Reddogeddon might even be plausible if he actually had any proof whatsoever for his fantasy, but he provides none that hasn't already been discussed and discounted - ie, the 'shy Tory' concoction, long since factored into opinion polls.

Beyond that? Just D"F"H's usual blather and attempt to shitcan Miliband and Labour - clearly the party he writes about with tribal loyalty - and get the New Labour experiment back on track, with, one presumes, the right brother in charge instead, or failing the Messiah accepting Danny's grovelling pleas and doing the Second Coming, perhaps one of those awfully nice chaps from Progress, untainted as they are but any particular evidence of left leaning thinking.

I hope Labour get a majority in May, if only to silence the little gobshite once and for all.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:19 pm

& because he'll lose money on his betting that Labour won't win.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:21 pm

@yahyah

All I do is donate money too. I can't do door knocking & no confidence to do phone work so until they supply leaflets for envelops stuffing, donating is the extent of my support.

I confess I took great pleasure in donating directly to Oliver Coppard's campaign in Sheffield Hallam !!

edited twice cos my fingers don't produce the same words as my head

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:23 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
55DegreesNorth wrote:It's obviously open season on rubbish Christian Free Schools. Grindon Hall in Sunderland just got a kicking (apols if this has been posted previously).

http://www.grindonhall.com/Mainfolder/H ... y-2015.pdf

Oh, and Afternoon folks.
Afternoon, and nice to see you here.

Curse of Toby Young. Thought he was on to a nice easy one, attacking the black bishop bloke who doesn't like free schools.

2 disasters revealed in 2 days.

I see that Adrian Hilton (aka Archbishop Cranmer) is putting the boot into the bish now and calling him a hypocrite for opposing free schools...yet had opened one sponsored by the Diocese of York only two days earlier.

http://archbishopcranmer.com/if-sentamu ... sing-them/

What part of "you can oppose something but have to accept them as there is no alternative" do Hilton and Toady not understand?

In any case this isn't the whole truth as we know.

This new Academy is, in fact, a Free School: a Free School is simply an Academy without a predecessor state school. Many Free Schools have been set up by highly successful Academy chains such as ARK. Does the Archbishop of York not understand this?

There are new academies without a predecessor schools which are simply called...academies. It seems to be entirely random as to whether it's called one or t'other.

And he's used the "They are performing better than local authority schools, and are twice is likely to be rated outstanding by Ofsted." which even the DfE accept isn't provable.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:24 pm

Tizme1 wrote:Forgot to say - afternoon all.

On one of the G articles, Clegg is reported as saying that in the event of a hung vote, he would talk to the party with the most votes first. Does anyone know if that is what he said or is it a typo? I ask because prior to the 2010 election, I'm sure Clegg said he would talk to the party with the most seats first. A subtle but important difference. An indication of Clegg's preference maybe?

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest but what does is that he has said this - if indeed he has.

Whenever he's been asked before, he always avoids answering.

Maybe one of us should try getting through to the Clegg phone in on Thursday mornings to ask him directly on air...

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:27 pm

pk1 wrote:@yahyah

All I do is donate money too. I can't do door knocking & no confidence to do phone work so until they supply leaflets for envelops stuffing, donating is the extent of my support.

I confess to taking great pleasure in donating directly to Oliver Coppard's campaign in Sheffield Hallam !!

Fill your boots with those pleasurable thoughts PK.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:29 pm

yahyah wrote:
pk1 wrote:@yahyah

All I do is donate money too. I can't do door knocking & no confidence to do phone work so until they supply leaflets for envelops stuffing, donating is the extent of my support.

I confess to taking great pleasure in donating directly to Oliver Coppard's campaign in Sheffield Hallam !!

Fill your boots with those pleasurable thoughts PK.

I usually just give to the national party but seeing Clegg on Marr filled me with resolve to help Coppard whenever I can

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:47 pm

pk1 wrote:@yahyah

All I do is donate money too. I can't do door knocking & no confidence to do phone work so until they supply leaflets for envelops stuffing, donating is the extent of my support.

I confess I took great pleasure in donating directly to Oliver Coppard's campaign in Sheffield Hallam !!

edited twice cos my fingers don't produce the same words as my head

I was due to do some leafletting for my local Labour PPC but was in the middle of tooth trouble. A goodly reminder I need to get in touch with the organiser saying I'm okay at the moment if they need odd jobs doing.

I've also volunteered Mr Ohso as chauffeur to anyone that needs a lift to the polling station.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:47 pm

Tizme1 wrote:Forgot to say - afternoon all.

On one of the G articles, Clegg is reported as saying that in the event of a hung vote, he would talk to the party with the most votes first. Does anyone know if that is what he said or is it a typo? I ask because prior to the 2010 election, I'm sure Clegg said he would talk to the party with the most seats first. A subtle but important difference. An indication of Clegg's preference maybe?

I fairly sure Clegg has said the same before - i.e. party with the most votes. I remember clocking it ... and considering it as confirming that he is determined to go into another coalition with the Tories if at all possible - because they are relatively likely to have the most votes overall, even if Labour has more seats.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:52 pm

Should have added Labour haven't a cats chance in hell of winning here, but we've local elections as well so hopefully they'll be a bit more productive.
UKIP are surging, LibDems are finished, so my vote will also be a percentage.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:58 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:Forgot to say - afternoon all.

On one of the G articles, Clegg is reported as saying that in the event of a hung vote, he would talk to the party with the most votes first. Does anyone know if that is what he said or is it a typo? I ask because prior to the 2010 election, I'm sure Clegg said he would talk to the party with the most seats first. A subtle but important difference. An indication of Clegg's preference maybe?
I fairly sure Clegg has said the same before - i.e. party with the most votes. I remember clocking it ... and considering it as confirming that he is determined to go into another coalition with the Tories if at all possible - because they are relatively likely to have the most votes overall, even if Labour has more seats.

Correctomundo. It's a reason why the Tories were so stupid as to ensure no Lords reform, as the long anticipated gerrymandering bill could no longer go ahead, afterthe Fibs' strop. If, of course, the Tories had allowed the Boundary Commission to quietly get on with what it's been doing since Adam were a lad and correct the worst constituencies, they they'd have had a more even field to tilt at.

Or, god forbid - perhaps they ought to go and find out why so many people in large cities, particularly in the North wouldn't be seen dead voting Tory.

Still, they brought that situation on themselves. But, yes, this is Clegg trying curry favour with the Tories in the hope he and his 2-3 remaining MPs can lick Tory arses for another 5 years.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 5:59 pm

Anyone who feels they don't have enough confidence to knock on doors - don't worry about it - helping with donations is fine (I can't do that). So is offering to deliver leaflets just in your area - especially if it's rural because it's rare to get something delivered from a political party outside the big mailings.

We've got ourselves organised so that people who really don't want to knock on doors get to take charge of the 'book' when we're out. No door knocking involved - are fulfilling a very useful role - and get to boss us door knockers about a bit if they want to!

But I'd echo what Ernst says - the nice people generally far outweigh the ones that don't want to talk, or are just plain unpleasant. We've had some lovely chats and I've genuinely got to know a lot more about the community here.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:02 pm

Re: Clegg

Exactly.

Or as I nearly typed ezactly and I've only had one small beer

Clegg has been consistent for the last few months about this most votes thing, but it's unlikely to be consistent with what he said last time.

In fact it would be amazing if it were!

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:05 pm

yahyah wrote:
Tizme1 wrote:Forgot to say - afternoon all.

On one of the G articles, Clegg is reported as saying that in the event of a hung vote, he would talk to the party with the most votes first. Does anyone know if that is what he said or is it a typo? I ask because prior to the 2010 election, I'm sure Clegg said he would talk to the party with the most seats first. A subtle but important difference. An indication of Clegg's preference maybe?

I'm sure Clegg himself doesn't know, and if he did we couldn't trust him to tell the truth.

& that's why I would urge everyone to consider their vote carefully if they don't want the Tories or a Tory led coalition in power next May.

It won't matter if Labour have the most seats, if they have a smaller % of votes than the Tories then it will be argued they have less legitimacy to try and form a coalition.

Of course, for anyone who thinks that Labour are just 'red Tories' that may not matter.

I'm lucky, my household will not suffer that much under a Tory or Tory led government.
But I care about those who will.

I want my vote counting for Labour in the final percentage counts in May, to help justify a Labour led coalition if we have another hung Parliament.
That's why I will be voting Labour.

Actually, if Labour have sufficient seats, regardless of the vote % then they will form the next government. If Labour want the Green vote, they should offer us something worth voting for. If we keep on giving our vote to Labour in order to keep the Tories out, nothing will change and in 2020 we'll be facing the same arguments.

This isn't just theoretical for me. I'm grappling with it within the party at local and regional level. At our local party meeting last night, we spent a large amount of time on this because we now have to make a final decision on whether to stand a candidate - actually two candidates as we cover Hertsmere too but Watford is the biggest concern. I was then in email correspondence with various regional bods until the small hours discussing it.

You want your vote to count for Labour in the final % counts in May to help justify a Labour led coalition if we have another hung Parliament. Many Greens want their votes counting in the final % for the Greens so in 2020 we won't be shut out yet again by the Broadcasters and Ofcom.

Everyone is thinking about how awful its going to be if we have another 5 years of the Tories. We Greens are also talking about how awful its going to be if we continue to have this same situation for years and years to come. Maybe even right up to the point where everyone says "oh dear, we seem to have totally fucked the planet up" as the lights go out.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:07 pm

Here's quite a helpful piece from 2011 on the Clegg issue

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12697796" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems he justified talking first to Cameron last time on the basis that he had the most votes and the most seats. This was in the face of some views that he should talk first to the sitting PM.

It then appears that he tried to codify this as "most votes" for this time, but Gus O'Donnell wouldn't let him.

So, unsurprisingly, he looks pretty unprincipled on this issue......

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:08 pm

Why doesn't Clegg just come clean and say he'll talk first to the party with most money?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:13 pm

@Tizme ''Many Greens want their votes counting in the final % for the Greens so in 2020 we won't be shut out yet again by the Broadcasters and Ofcom.''

Do you think for many Green voters having a surge in voting %, and the chance to push themselves forward in 2020 would be more important than living with the havoc another five years of a Tory government would cause ?

I know some on the extreme left almost want to be living under the cosh, in order to foment [ferment ?, suppose both could apply] a change in class conciousness.

Maybe it's because I'm getting old, at 58 I want anti-Tory jam today, not pie in the sky tomorrow.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:13 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Re: Clegg

Exactly.

Or as I nearly typed ezactly and I've only had one small beer

Clegg has been consistent for the last few months about this most votes thing, but it's unlikely to be consistent with what he said last time.

In fact it would be amazing if it were!

Generally both before 2010 and more recently, he says 'the party with the biggest mandate'. However pre 2010 he did clarify this by saying most seats. Now seemingly he's saying most votes. That's a clear indication to me that he would prefer to go into another coalition with the Tories. Or maybe I should say a clear confirmation of what I suspected! I guess he reckons [probably correctly unfortunately] that generally, people won't notice the difference in what he's saying.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:17 pm

: UKIP Plans To Save Britain.jpg (41.19 KiB) Viewed 7665 times

Owen Smith MP retweeted
Flumpmistress ‏@flumpmistress 2h2 hours ago
This rubbish just came through the letterbox. Mustn't have got Nige's memo about "US-style health insurance". #UKIP

All you can do really - the twists, turns, contradictions and 'drivel' keep on coming. Sad thing is that some people will actually believe this.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:25 pm

Tim Montgomerie ن @montie · 53m 53 minutes ago
Greens surging in polls since Cameron insisted they take part in the debates. It's almost as if this was all part of a #SplitTheLeft plan!

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:28 pm

Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick · 7h 7 hours ago
It's sad Dame Elisabeth Murdoch, Rupert's mum, didn't live to see death of "Page 3". She hated The Sun, but died Dec 2012, aged almost 104

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:28 pm

yahyah wrote:@Tizme ''Many Greens want their votes counting in the final % for the Greens so in 2020 we won't be shut out yet again by the Broadcasters and Ofcom.''

Do you think for many Green voters having a surge in voting %, and the chance to push themselves forward in 2020 would be more important than living with the havoc another five years of a Tory government would cause ?

I know some on the extreme left almost want to be living under the cosh, in order to foment [ferment ?, suppose both could apply] a change in class conciousness.

Maybe it's because I'm getting old, at 58 I want anti-Tory jam today, not pie in the sky tomorrow.

Yahyah, OK, we vote for Labour even though we don't agree with their policies, so the next 5 years won't be quite as bad as being under a Tory government. And then in 2020 we'll hear the same arguments. And won't be on an even playing field to put forward our views. And 5 years after that in 2025 we'll hear the same arguments, and five years after that...........

Greens think beyond the next five years. You see we aren't just thinking of the people alive today, we're thinking of future generations too. We'd kind of like there to be a viable planet for them. Not to mention we think our social policies are much fairer than Labours. And age has nothing to do with it - I'm 54. Nor does wanting to effect a change in class conciousness.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:31 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:Anyone who feels they don't have enough confidence to knock on doors - don't worry about it - helping with donations is fine (I can't do that). So is offering to deliver leaflets just in your area - especially if it's rural because it's rare to get something delivered from a political party outside the big mailings.

We've got ourselves organised so that people who really don't want to knock on doors get to take charge of the 'book' when we're out. No door knocking involved - are fulfilling a very useful role - and get to boss us door knockers about a bit if they want to!

But I'd echo what Ernst says - the nice people generally far outweigh the ones that don't want to talk, or are just plain unpleasant. We've had some lovely chats and I've genuinely got to know a lot more about the community here.

I haven't a scrap of patience when someone is insulting or bad mannered...It's my one failing [insert angel and tongue in cheek smiley here]

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:31 pm

Goodnight all.
Off to make aubergine dhansak & cauliflower bhaji.

Just want to apologise to Tizme if she feels she's having to bat for the Greens as well as fielding all our questions about policy. Thanks for posting.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:34 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tim Montgomerie ن @montie · 53m 53 minutes ago
Greens surging in polls since Cameron insisted they take part in the debates. It's almost as if this was all part of a #SplitTheLeft plan!

Labour *still* edging it in the polls, though - despite surges for both the Greens and SNP.

Maybe somebody should point that out to IDS's former right hand man? It might even make him less insufferably smug for a few seconds

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:43 pm

Tizme1 wrote:
yahyah wrote:@Tizme ''Many Greens want their votes counting in the final % for the Greens so in 2020 we won't be shut out yet again by the Broadcasters and Ofcom.''

Do you think for many Green voters having a surge in voting %, and the chance to push themselves forward in 2020 would be more important than living with the havoc another five years of a Tory government would cause ?

I know some on the extreme left almost want to be living under the cosh, in order to foment [ferment ?, suppose both could apply] a change in class conciousness.

Maybe it's because I'm getting old, at 58 I want anti-Tory jam today, not pie in the sky tomorrow.
Yahyah, OK, we vote for Labour even though we don't agree with their policies, so the next 5 years won't be quite as bad as being under a Tory government. And then in 2020 we'll hear the same arguments. And won't be on an even playing field to put forward our views. And 5 years after that in 2025 we'll hear the same arguments, and five years after that...........

Greens think beyond the next five years. You see we aren't just thinking of the people alive today, we're thinking of future generations too. We'd kind of like there to be a viable planet for them. Not to mention we think our social policies are much fairer than Labours. And age has nothing to do with it - I'm 54. Nor does wanting to effect a change in class conciousness.

The latest? When someone with a baby is sanctioned the babies milk tokens will be withdrawn, and food banks don't provide baby milk.

Tizme, I sympathise with your aims and I have six grandchildren whose future is important, but we urgently need change now, otherwise innocents from this generation will never get the chance to grow up and have children of their own. Labour might not be perfect, but we need action because in the here and now a lot of people have nothing.

Labour under Blair did a lot of things wrong, but they also did a hell of a lot that was good and right.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:45 pm

I should have added I am so fucking angry if a Tory or LibDem came to my door right now, I'd smash their face in.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:46 pm

Can I just say that I greatly appreciate's Tizme's postings here, and can understand it if they sometimes feel a bit intimidated that this site is in general so strongly (even if not uncritically) pro-Labour; it can feel sometimes as if they are being bludgeoned a bit to fall into line. It genuinely isn't meant that way, though

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:48 pm

ohsocynical wrote:I should have added I am so fucking angry if a Tory or LibDem came to my door right now, I'd smash their face in.

Well don't let me stop you.

Tizme1 · Post by **Tizme1** » Tue 20 Jan, 2015 6:52 pm

yahyah wrote:Goodnight all.
Off to make aubergine dhansak & cauliflower bhaji.

Just want to apologise to Tizme if she feels she's having to bat for the Greens as well as fielding all our questions about policy. Thanks for posting.

If you give me the recipes for your aubergine dhansak and cauliflower bhaji, I'll bat all day for the Greens, answer all the questions I can about polices, and smile as I do it. Deal?