Thursday 22nd January 2015

[TechnicalEphemera]

Right, important stuff. The great Cadbury Creme Egg scandal.

Just tried one, utterly crap a truly horrid experience with a hideous aftertaste.

After many years of eating them I will never touch another one.

[ohsocynical]

Morning folks,
I've just finished yesterday's posts, and I say hats off to Tisme for a courteous and reasoned approach. For what it's worth, I think the argument has become too dichotomised. It's not going to be a Green vs Labour choice for many voters, but a tactical decision.
In my constituency, Newcastle East, Nick Brown looks likely to be returned with over 50% of the vote, and has a 97% chance of winning, according to Electoral Calculus. A Green vote here (which I'm strongly tempted to do) would send a message, without threatening to let a Tory or LibDem in.
In a marginal ward, I wouldn't consider it. I'm sure many others will be thinking along the same lines.

I second your hats off. And it's a worthwhile point about tactical voting. While we have this crazy FPTP system, it does at least liberate people in safe seats to vote according to their conscience in the hope that share of vote might do some good.

In response to Tizme's point yesterday that it felt as though some people were treating the Greens as the enemy, I would say this - those particular Greens (and they both had the party logo on their avatars) cast themselves as the enemy by their belligerent posture well before any FTNers got involved. I'd like to think the response was not because they were Greens but because, frankly, they were being arseholes. And the point that they were being treated the same as Tories was perhaps not coincidental because they were using exactly the same arguments and style of argument as the Tories, to the extent that the question was raised as to whether they were really Greens and not actually Tory 'false flaggers'.

I and many others recognise that there are a good many moderate and sensible Greens, and I agree with a good chunk of their policies such as renationalisation of the railways. (I have good reasons why I don't back them at the moment which I've outlined before). However, there are some who seem to act as though only the Greens have the answers, that all their policies are political elixir, and Labour is the antichrist. It's hard to respond to people like that reasonably and factually - yet that is what Tubby and others were trying to do, while being shouted down with anecdote and spin.

In short, I think the response was to trolling and tribalism rather than the Green party.

I haven't caught up with last nights later posts, but on the subject of those two on Twitter they reminded me of how Kippers post and seeing that Kippers have been asked not to useTwitter it'd be a sneaky way for them to get anti-Labour views across.

[ephemerid]

"At the end of the day, the way ill people are being treated in this country is appalling and one person is never going to change that on their own so what she has chosen to do should have no real impact on the wider campaign to get rid of a system that so many people disagree with. I'd also like to add that Ephemerid has mentioned a couple of times that the Labour shadow DWP team (led by Rachel Reeves?) has shown a worrying trend to muddle disability with illness. If this is true then it isn't particularly encouraging."

The impact Sue's decision has already had is this - even though her recent surgery and now-established TPN feedline may well have helped her to gain strength and improve her health (which is a very good thing), and having become well-known and influential on the basis that she was seriously ill (true) and and campaigned for abolition of the WCA (previously her stance, but now not what she thinks) it is inevitable that some people will assume that Support Group claimants can all work.
This has, in fact, already happened - the Mail had an article on it, and allegedly IDS approved; and even if the ATL article and BTL comments are rubbish, millions of people read papers like the Mail and many of those believe what they read. It has done the overall campaign no favours. She is just one person, and her campaigning was relatively short-lived in comparison to many others; however, she is high-profile and she is influential and that plays into the hands of DWP/IDS.

I have indeed mentioned that both Reeves and Green continually conflate illness with disability. Whenever they talk about ESA/WCA, there is an emphasis on "helping the disabled back to work" which suggests to me that they do not fully understand that - a) the vast majority of ESA claimants are temporarily ill and do not claim long enough to need a WCA because they get better and/or go back to work, and b) that ESA (a Labour invention) has made sickness about work for disabled people when it's actually about, er, sickness and is a benefit for poorly people. Or it should be.....


"As far as I'm concerned a disabled person is someone who is fit and well but happens to have a limb missing or needs a wheelchair or maybe is registered blind. People with chronic conditions are essentially very unlucky, there is nothing about their position that is enviable and it's high time we got away from an attitude where fit and well people who have everything - work, home, health - somehow resent the very small amount of money the unwell get back from their contributions over the years to the public purse when they were well themselves."

The problem here is that many people with chronic illness (like me) are debilitated by that illness, and thus fulfil some of the defining factors of disability. My mobility and other activities of daily life are compromised by the symptoms of my illness, so I am disabled by any "normal" yardstick. Equally, someone who has full physical ability, is in good health bodily, can be severely disabled in everyday life if they have mental health problems and/or severe learning difficulties which prevent them from coping with the activities of daily living.
Then there are people who may have physical impairments but are fit and well - however, they could be at risk of health problems that do not affect people who are fully mobile, like continence issues, UTIs, pressure sores, muscle wasting, pain due to musculo-skeletal deformity, etc, which may need treatment and can tip someone over from being "just" disabled to being poorly and disabled.

It's very complex, and each case is as individual as the claimants' DNA. That's why I think sickness benefits (and the language around them) should be obviously separate from disability support - and if you have both qualities, you should be entitled to both types of support. The PIP assessment and descriptors are very very close to the ESA descriptors, and the conflation of sickness and disability is echoed in the way these two new (well, new-ish with ESA) are being administered. In both cases, the individual's situation gets lost; the descriptors bear no relation to what the claimant is experiencing, nor, indeed, what their own health professionals opine.

I agree that we need to get away from the resentment some have - but that's something that has been actively encouraged by successive governments and a compliant/corrupt media. The facts are that the sick and disabled population can only increase.
People are living longer with problems that would have killed them not so long ago; medical advances keep people alive, but with significant chronic sequelae and/or permanent disability; plus there is now a significant cohort of over-60s who will be in the benefits system because they will have to wait much longer for their state pensions.

What we need is a complete overhaul of social security for the future, and I think a Citizens Income is an idea gaining traction.
But - I do not think any mainstream party, including Labour, would ever countenance it.
I am voting Labour for other reasons - but I have zero confidence that they will improve matters any time soon if they get in.
However, if they are in, at least there is a slim possibility that they can be negotiated with.

"Anyway, sorry this has been a bit long, but it contains a few things I've been mulling over for a while and finally felt I'd like to say. And morning all. I hope someone has something cheerful to say today, because I've just made myself a bit gloomy."

Now that I've posted something a bit long, you are not alone. I am cheering myself up today by taking the piss out of UKIP.
I can't drive while claiming benefits because I don't have a car on taxpayers' money.
In fact, I don't have any taxpayers' money, because DWP still aren't sending me any. Just the 2 months now....

Anyway - they need to know that, despite it all, I am guilty of smiling while disabled. I'm smiling now. Give it a go. It works!

[rebeccariots2]

From Owen Jones - right on cue - and very much following on in the vein of the twitter exchange I posted here yesterday or the day before.

How Labour should respond to the ‘Green surge’
Renationalising the railways, a living wage and a referendum on PR are three policies that would take the wind out of Green sails
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... referendum
It is not a sudden panic about the threat of environmental catastrophe that has caused the Green party to swell in membership and hit up to 11% in the polls. It has everything to do with the failure of Labour to offer an inspiring alternative to five years of Tory austerity. According to IPSOS Mori, more than a quarter of Britons believe that Labour plans to “cut spending too much”. It just takes a few of those to defect and Labour is in trouble. The Greens offer a living wage, public ownership of rail, higher taxes for the rich, and other policies based on social justice that appeal to large swathes of the electorate.

There is one obvious counterattack Labour can make: vote Green, get a Tory government. Because of the absurdities of first past the post (FPTP), the Greens are unlikely to win any seat other than Brighton Pavilion, already held by the courageous and principled Caroline Lucas. According to Ladbrokes, the Green surge could deliver seats such as Brighton Kemptown, Hove, Stroud, Norwich North and Bristol North West to the Tories. Losers could include Labour leftwingers like Brighton Kemptown’s Nancy Platt, Norwich South’s Clive Lewis, and Lancaster’s Cat Smith.

That will mean five more years of the bedroom tax, the dismantling of the NHS and the stripping away of the welfare state. If Labour lose, Ed Miliband’s successor will almost certainly drag the party to the right, and many Green voters will suffer “buyer’s remorse”: the exhilaration at voting for principles will be eclipsed by despondency at being saddled with another Tory government, deterring them from voting Green again. Few of those who claim there is no meaningful difference between a Labour and Tory government are being hammered by the bedroom tax...

[Toby Latimer]

Right, important stuff. The great Cadbury Creme Egg scandal.

Just tried one, utterly crap a truly horrid experience with a hideous aftertaste.

After many years of eating them I will never touch another one.

Many years ago when i was still able, we paid a visit to Cadbury World in Bournville where there is a guided tour around the factory to see how they make a lot of products. There is a little gift shop at the end of the tour to make the inevitable 'impulse' purchases.

They have a fleet of these Creme Egg shaped cars buzzing around the place, i'm not sure if they are for giving visitors a ride or for the use of staff to get around.

We went on one of the hottest days of the year in July. We made the mistake of placing the goodies we bought in the boot of the car, when we arrived home after a 90 minute journey most of it had melted into a great brown mush, still managed to eat it all though

3273307.jpg (151.14 KiB) Viewed 7393 times

[HindleA]

Mark Harper to appear in front of the DWP Select Committee,next Wednesday 28th at 09.30.

"Progress with disability and incapacity benefit reforms"


http://www.parliament.uk/business/commi ... people-ev/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ohsocynical]

TGS, I'll add my voice to the others. Please stay...You've made invaluable contributions to FTN.

[rebeccariots2]

A word of warning for anyone not feeling very resilient or chilled ... BTL on the Owen Jones Green Surge article is utterly vicious. It is very like the fury of the YES vote supporters ... and then some in certain patches.

I sort of need some amazing psychotherapist to interpret all this fury and anger for me in a way I can understand and deal with. I'm just sort of standing with my mouth open watching the stones being thrown at present - it doesn't feel good - but someone with the ability to stand back and view it from other perspectives may be able to say why this is happening and necessary in order to pave the way for .... what?

[StephenDolan]

Just taken part in the latest YouGov, you can blame me for relevant polling figures

[HindleA]

"Food banks: MPs call for fresh inquiry into scale of UK food poverty


A cross-party group of MPs has called on government to commission research into the extent and causes of food insecurity and the growth in food banks"


The government should commission fresh research into why people use food banks, and start measuring the scale and extent of food poverty in the UK, a cross-party group of MPs has urged.


http://www.theguardian.com/society/patr ... od-poverty" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rebeccariots2]

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 1h 1 hour ago
Today's TNS poll EXCLUDING SCOTLAND (my calculations)
CON 31.8
LAB 32.2
LD 8.2
UKIP 18
GRN 6.4
A 5.2% CON to LAB swing

[HindleA]

@Ephemerhid

Agree with the smiling technique.I also utilise the chuckle,uncontrollable laughter and repeated thrusting of a single digit(never two,wasteful) in the air at the TV method of keeping sane(questionable I realise)

[Willow904]

@ephemerid

It's very complex, and each case is as individual as the claimants' DNA. That's why I think sickness benefits (and the language around them) should be obviously separate from disability support - and if you have both qualities, you should be entitled to both types of support.

Yes, I very much agree.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't think you could be both ill and disabled! I just meant helping people who face barriers to work because of a disability is one thing and providing social security for someone who has the misfortune to become ill is another thing entirely - although, as you say, many people may need help with both. I do feel very strongly anyone with a medical condition serious enough to have them signed off work by a doctor should receive higher rates of sickness pay whilst out of work than someone who is just redundant - because ill people face higher heating costs and need transport when others could walk and, if chronic, could be living on this rate for a much longer time than most out of work people. It just really saddens me as it seems that was the system we used to have. If it was becoming too expensive because people are working longer and because more people with mental health issues were successfully accessing the benefits they were entitled to, as happened under Labour in the 2000s, then that is something that the country as a whole should have had a conversation about. Pretending that people claiming sickness/disability benefits aren't really sick/disabled to justify arbitrarily slashing funding is just about the most despicable thing a government can do.

Thanks for the cyber hug - - much better for my waistline than reaching for the hot chocolate!

[rebeccariots2]

Tories run two rickety databases in target seats
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehous ... get-seats/
The Conservatives are running two voter databases, neither of which are fully functioning, in their key constituencies, Coffee House has learned.

The party had been trying to get rid of its frail database Merlin, which keeps breaking during by-elections and at other crucial moments, in time for the General Election. But it hasn’t quite managed it yet, and is instead running Merlin alongside a new, but not fully-tested, database called VoteSource...
P.S. Another candidate gets in touch to say that his campaign planning includes ‘actions on CCHQ f***ing up our data’, such as backing up in other formats. In 2010, the campaigners ended up using Google documents to share canvass sheets after they realised CCHQ’s systems were sending them to the wrong doorsteps. The fury among candidates who are trying to do a very difficult job of winning seats when their party is in government is quite something. One says: ‘They need a rocket. Three months out from the most important election in yonks is not the time to launch new platforms. Complete incompetence. Our team is furious.’

Chairman Shapps must be even more popular than before.

[Willow904]

BTW if I do succumb to that hot chocolate it certainly won't be a Cadbury one. I've been boycotting all Kraft products from the day they took over Cadbury with their hostile takeover bid. It's impossible to boycott every firm I disapprove of but I felt particularly strongly about that one for some reason, not least because the Americans make such horrible chocolate. They really shouldn't be allowed to inflict it on the rest of the world.

[rebeccariots2]

Welsh Labour party would abolish right-to-buy scheme
Policy promoting sale of council houses would be abolished if Labour keeps power in the Welsh assembly next year
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... cil-houses
The right-to-buy scheme that has allowed social housing tenants to buy their homes is set to be scrapped in Wales under plans announced by the Labour-led government.

Legislation may be introduced in Wales to abolish the scheme, a flagship policy of Margaret Thatcher’s government, if Labour retains power after next year’s assembly elections.

The government has given permission for the scheme to be immediately suspended in Carmarthenshire, south-west Wales, where there is a particularly acute housing shortage, but said on Thursday it wanted to roll out the policy across Wales to make sure social housing was available for the most vulnerable.

Tories attacked the announcement as an “anti-aspiration, nanny-state-knows-best decision” demonstrating that Welsh Labour was returning to “its out-dated socialist dogma of the 1980s”...

Attacked as out dated socialists on one front ... and neo liberal, pro market and out of touch with its working class base on the other.

[Rebecca]

From Owen Jones - right on cue - and very much following on in the vein of the twitter exchange I posted here yesterday or the day before.

How Labour should respond to the ‘Green surge’
Renationalising the railways, a living wage and a referendum on PR are three policies that would take the wind out of Green sails
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... referendum
It is not a sudden panic about the threat of environmental catastrophe that has caused the Green party to swell in membership and hit up to 11% in the polls. It has everything to do with the failure of Labour to offer an inspiring alternative to five years of Tory austerity. According to IPSOS Mori, more than a quarter of Britons believe that Labour plans to “cut spending too much”. It just takes a few of those to defect and Labour is in trouble. The Greens offer a living wage, public ownership of rail, higher taxes for the rich, and other policies based on social justice that appeal to large swathes of the electorate.

There is one obvious counterattack Labour can make: vote Green, get a Tory government. Because of the absurdities of first past the post (FPTP), the Greens are unlikely to win any seat other than Brighton Pavilion, already held by the courageous and principled Caroline Lucas. According to Ladbrokes, the Green surge could deliver seats such as Brighton Kemptown, Hove, Stroud, Norwich North and Bristol North West to the Tories. Losers could include Labour leftwingers like Brighton Kemptown’s Nancy Platt, Norwich South’s Clive Lewis, and Lancaster’s Cat Smith.

That will mean five more years of the bedroom tax, the dismantling of the NHS and the stripping away of the welfare state. If Labour lose, Ed Miliband’s successor will almost certainly drag the party to the right, and many Green voters will suffer “buyer’s remorse”: the exhilaration at voting for principles will be eclipsed by despondency at being saddled with another Tory government, deterring them from voting Green again. Few of those who claim there is no meaningful difference between a Labour and Tory government are being hammered by the bedroom tax...

HI everyone.Haven't posted for a while here,I just don't enjoy doing it on my tablet.
Anyway,couple of things.I agree with what Owen Jones is saying here,but maybe if he hadn't spent the last year or so bitching and whining on about Labour it would have been somewhat better.
@Tizme,I'm sorry,but the Greens are definitely trying to split the left vote and are blatantly lying about Labour to do so.With the polls so close this is asking for another tory led govt,and so be it if that's how you vote,but if and when the inevitable happens saying ,oh my life and my friends lives are harder but it isn't my fault it's all Labours fault is dishonest imo.Same goes for SNP voters too.And this thing about 'fear' which some green posters are coming out with has been taken straight out of SNP handbooks,and is so tedious.
Grim,don't go.
Something might make you smile,apparently Boris has paid his US tax bill,remember the one he vowed he wouldn't last year?Hope it was eye watering.

[LadyCentauria]

Leon Brittan has died at home, aged 75, after a long battle with cancer. (BBC News Breaking News crawler)

[refitman]

Leon Brittan has died.

[ohsocynical]

BTW if I do succumb to that hot chocolate it certainly won't be a Cadbury one. I've been boycotting all Kraft products from the day they took over Cadbury with their hostile takeover bid. It's impossible to boycott every firm I disapprove of but I felt particularly strongly about that one for some reason, not least because the Americans make such horrible chocolate. They really shouldn't be allowed to inflict it on the rest of the world.

Snap!

[StephenDolan]

Brittan dying of cancer feeds conspiracy theories nicely over the May delays.

[Tish]

Leon Brittan has died at home, aged 75, after a long battle with cancer. (BBC News Breaking News crawler)

And only a week after John Stingmore!

I wonder how many politicians will risk a fulsome tribute to Brittan today? I imagine the press are already searching out Hague and Clegg for some warm words for their old boss as we speak.

[ohsocynical]

Leon Brittan has died.

I don't have a faith as such, but wouldn't it be nice if there is day of reckoning when we're made to answer for sins committed.

[TechnicalEphemera]

A word of warning for anyone not feeling very resilient or chilled ... BTL on the Owen Jones Green Surge article is utterly vicious. It is very like the fury of the YES vote supporters ... and then some in certain patches.

I sort of need some amazing psychotherapist to interpret all this fury and anger for me in a way I can understand and deal with. I'm just sort of standing with my mouth open watching the stones being thrown at present - it doesn't feel good - but someone with the ability to stand back and view it from other perspectives may be able to say why this is happening and necessary in order to pave the way for .... what?

The Green surge is very over played, the SNP less so. That said if you discount the Mori poll (and they don't have a great record) it looks much closer in Scotland.

We know there is a solid green base 3-5% and you can add maybe 2% for TUSC and maybe 2-3% of the Lib Dem none of the above (who might otherwise vote UKIP).

The debate as to how much of this vote might go Labour maybe only 3 points of it, the rest are solid Green, non voters or protest voters.

It does move Labour to the left a little, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but that can't be at the expense of the middle class anti Tory vote.

As for PR, has Owen done the maths? On a PR basis this election is already over Result: Con/UKIP/DUP government. Majority about 10-20.

NHS, Europe, environment, rights totally buggered.

[ohsocynical]

The Tweets about Brittain are starting to come in.
I wonder if there is anyone who will mourn him. What an awful legacy to leave behind.

[AnatolyKasparov]

As with Cyril Smith after he died, maybe the truth might finally emerge now?

[LadyCentauria]

Well, it has been emotional folks, but I feel I can no longer contribute anything of worth to FTN. Good luck for the future.

Why ? What's happened ?? PM me if you don't/can't say openly. Hope you're ok x

Same from me TGS. Very sad to hear you feel that way ... and hope it's something that can be rectified so you carry on contributing to FTN.

Why on earth, TGS? Everything you contribute is of value, please stay!

[ephemerid]

BTW if I do succumb to that hot chocolate it certainly won't be a Cadbury one. I've been boycotting all Kraft products from the day they took over Cadbury with their hostile takeover bid. It's impossible to boycott every firm I disapprove of but I felt particularly strongly about that one for some reason, not least because the Americans make such horrible chocolate. They really shouldn't be allowed to inflict it on the rest of the world.

This is the best hot chocolate ever. I used to use Green&Black's for this, but the cheap supermarkets' lines are every bit as good.

Aldi's 85% dark chocolate (it costs about £1.20 for a 125g bar) - for one, you need about 25g (I've been known to use more)
Heat up a standard mugful whole milk till boiling then add the chocolate and stir off the heat till melted.
Add sugar to taste (or vanilla syrup - v.v.good), and some cream if you like (whipped cream is best of all)

It's like a big brown warm velvet cuddle.

A tot of brandy for those who can take alcohol is, I'm told, divine.

[55DegreesNorth]

Well, it has been emotional folks, but I feel I can no longer contribute anything of worth to FTN. Good luck for the future.

Don't do that, where would I get my opinions from? Lurk for a while and inspiration will come. Best wishes.

[Tizme1]

Morning folks,
I've just finished yesterday's posts, and I say hats off to Tisme for a courteous and reasoned approach. For what it's worth, I think the argument has become too dichotomised. It's not going to be a Green vs Labour choice for many voters, but a tactical decision.
In my constituency, Newcastle East, Nick Brown looks likely to be returned with over 50% of the vote, and has a 97% chance of winning, according to Electoral Calculus. A Green vote here (which I'm strongly tempted to do) would send a message, without threatening to let a Tory or LibDem in.
In a marginal ward, I wouldn't consider it. I'm sure many others will be thinking along the same lines.

Afternoon all,

And thank you 55DN. I'm inclined to agree with you that in many areas it won't be Labour vs Greens. And that many Greens will vote tactically. Don't know if Labour voters will - I doubt it very much. I also think that in many areas the Green vote will be squeezed. Same old same old that I have lived with for almost 30 years. Voting for preference not choice.

[HindleA]

http://limpingchicken.com/2015/01/21/ia ... allowance/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Legal action on the Disabled Students Allowance"

[ErnstRemarx]

Grimmers, if you're reading this, please have a think about going. Here's why.

FTN is a community, and like all communities its members contributein different ways, using different styles, talking about different subjects generally with a lot of authoratitive knowledge, and generally with wit and sparkle (as well as some anger, sometimes). While I know a lot of people have signed up and don't post, there'll be many who lurk and read - because of the diverse content, the joining up of the dots, and in depth thinking and commentary.

Your posts - on so many subjects - are usually a delight to read (well, I find them observant and frequently funny), and I never feel that you're posting with nothing to say, because even if you're commenting on something that's already been posted, it's going to be worth reading because the of the person that you are.

If you doubt me, look at the number of 'thanks' you've gathered in a short spell of time. Other people value you contributions here, and FTN would be a less interesting, nay absorbing, place if you called it a day. And that's why you should stay.

[Tizme1]

Morning folks,
I've just finished yesterday's posts, and I say hats off to Tisme for a courteous and reasoned approach. For what it's worth, I think the argument has become too dichotomised. It's not going to be a Green vs Labour choice for many voters, but a tactical decision.
In my constituency, Newcastle East, Nick Brown looks likely to be returned with over 50% of the vote, and has a 97% chance of winning, according to Electoral Calculus. A Green vote here (which I'm strongly tempted to do) would send a message, without threatening to let a Tory or LibDem in.
In a marginal ward, I wouldn't consider it. I'm sure many others will be thinking along the same lines.

I second your hats off. And it's a worthwhile point about tactical voting. While we have this crazy FPTP system, it does at least liberate people in safe seats to vote according to their conscience in the hope that share of vote might do some good.

In response to Tizme's point yesterday that it felt as though some people were treating the Greens as the enemy, I would say this - those particular Greens (and they both had the party logo on their avatars) cast themselves as the enemy by their belligerent posture well before any FTNers got involved. I'd like to think the response was not because they were Greens but because, frankly, they were being arseholes. And the point that they were being treated the same as Tories was perhaps not coincidental because they were using exactly the same arguments and style of argument as the Tories, to the extent that the question was raised as to whether they were really Greens and not actually Tory 'false flaggers'.

I and many others recognise that there are a good many moderate and sensible Greens, and I agree with a good chunk of their policies such as renationalisation of the railways. (I have good reasons why I don't back them at the moment which I've outlined before). However, there are some who seem to act as though only the Greens have the answers, that all their policies are political elixir, and Labour is the antichrist. It's hard to respond to people like that reasonably and factually - yet that is what Tubby and others were trying to do, while being shouted down with anecdote and spin.

In short, I think the response was to trolling and tribalism rather than the Green party.

Thanks Robert. I fully accept if those Green party members were being idiots or troll like, then they got all they deserved. I have no problem with that. However, I wasn't talking just about that when I spoke of Greens being treated as 'the enemy' and then being asked to vote Labour. I also wonder why its OK for Labour to attack the Greens but not vice versa? I'm sure all moderate/reasonable lefties would prefer a more rational approach where we tried to work in tandem.

[Tizme1]

Morning folks,
I've just finished yesterday's posts, and I say hats off to Tisme for a courteous and reasoned approach. For what it's worth, I think the argument has become too dichotomised. It's not going to be a Green vs Labour choice for many voters, but a tactical decision.
In my constituency, Newcastle East, Nick Brown looks likely to be returned with over 50% of the vote, and has a 97% chance of winning, according to Electoral Calculus. A Green vote here (which I'm strongly tempted to do) would send a message, without threatening to let a Tory or LibDem in.
In a marginal ward, I wouldn't consider it. I'm sure many others will be thinking along the same lines.

I second your hats off. And it's a worthwhile point about tactical voting. While we have this crazy FPTP system, it does at least liberate people in safe seats to vote according to their conscience in the hope that share of vote might do some good.

In response to Tizme's point yesterday that it felt as though some people were treating the Greens as the enemy, I would say this - those particular Greens (and they both had the party logo on their avatars) cast themselves as the enemy by their belligerent posture well before any FTNers got involved. I'd like to think the response was not because they were Greens but because, frankly, they were being arseholes. And the point that they were being treated the same as Tories was perhaps not coincidental because they were using exactly the same arguments and style of argument as the Tories, to the extent that the question was raised as to whether they were really Greens and not actually Tory 'false flaggers'.

I and many others recognise that there are a good many moderate and sensible Greens, and I agree with a good chunk of their policies such as renationalisation of the railways. (I have good reasons why I don't back them at the moment which I've outlined before). However, there are some who seem to act as though only the Greens have the answers, that all their policies are political elixir, and Labour is the antichrist. It's hard to respond to people like that reasonably and factually - yet that is what Tubby and others were trying to do, while being shouted down with anecdote and spin.

In short, I think the response was to trolling and tribalism rather than the Green party.

I haven't caught up with last nights later posts, but on the subject of those two on Twitter they reminded me of how Kippers post and seeing that Kippers have been asked not to useTwitter it'd be a sneaky way for them to get anti-Labour views across.

Possibly Ohso. Or as I believe Robert suggested, they feasibly could have been Tories. On the other hand, they could have been Greens. I'm sure we have our fair share of idiots too.

[ephemerid]

I will miss the presence of TGS here. I'm very fond of him.

I'd also like to say that I agree with Rebecca - in some places, a Green vote will assist the Tories.
It's not true everywhere, certainly; but to pretend that this will not split the left-leaning vote, especially in England, is foolish.

Where the vote is very close between Labour and the Tories, a few hundred votes will make a difference; and if the final overall result is tight we could easily end up with some hideous Tory-whoever coalition again and God help us all if we do.

My local chap Matthew hasn't a cat in hell's chance of actually winning the seat - but I won't vote Green or Plaid (however much I might like some of their ideas) because neither has a realistic chance of getting near government in Wales or Westminster.
I want the message to get out that even if the challenge to the LibDems here isn't enough to topple the MP, and even if the Tory gets in, the Labour vote share can increase and may well give them cause for concern next time.

Even though I have zero confidence that Labour will do anything to improve DWP etc. I do know that they are, under Ed Miliband, willing to admit their mistakes on some issues and may well be more radical in government if they work together.
Rather than badmouth Labour (and that is what's been happening lately), it's my view that the Greens could and should be working with Labour to get the Tories out - the Greens have more chance of getting some of their policies taken seriously if Labour are in office.
Some of their ideas are so alike as to be indistinguishable anyway.

Splitting the left vote is a very dangerous game, IMHO. I see what's happening in our country now as almost verging on a state of emergency.
The Tories have spent five years engaging in divide and rule tactics and we have a lot of fear and mistrust in this country.

I really think we need to get behind Miliband, even if some of us have to hold our noses - because the priority must be to get the Tories out.
If they get another 5 years, we can say goodbye to the NHS, social security, decent education, justice, and much more.

I am poor, I am jobless, I am reliant on benefits. They've targeted people like me and they are winning. People are suffering in their millions.
Those of you who own property or have jobs will be next - don't ever think you're immune - and most people in that position in this country now are not as far away from where I sit as they think. (I'm aware that this doesn't apply to most people here - you're a good bunch)

Last time the left was split to any degree we got Thatcher. It'll happen again with this vicious bunch if we're not careful.
We need to stop squabbling about this - I have as many reason not to vote Labour as any Green supporter, but I will get behind Ed because the future of my country is at stake, and I do not think that's an exaggeration.

I'm aware that there are people here who will not agree. Tough. I think you're wrong.

[LadyCentauria]

Right, important stuff. The great Cadbury Creme Egg scandal.

Just tried one, utterly crap a truly horrid experience with a hideous aftertaste.

After many years of eating them I will never touch another one.

Only ever tried one many-many years ago but hated it so have successfully avoided them ever since. However, a friend who utterly adored them tried a new-recipe one, earlier today, and 'ejected' it swiftly into a tissue as she dashed for the cloak-room to wash her mouth out. I've put that as mildly as I can – she was rather more graphic in her description...

Goodness knows what they've done to them in order to get that sort of reaction from one of their very-regular customers!

[Tizme1]

From Owen Jones - right on cue - and very much following on in the vein of the twitter exchange I posted here yesterday or the day before.

How Labour should respond to the ‘Green surge’
Renationalising the railways, a living wage and a referendum on PR are three policies that would take the wind out of Green sails
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... referendum
It is not a sudden panic about the threat of environmental catastrophe that has caused the Green party to swell in membership and hit up to 11% in the polls. It has everything to do with the failure of Labour to offer an inspiring alternative to five years of Tory austerity. According to IPSOS Mori, more than a quarter of Britons believe that Labour plans to “cut spending too much”. It just takes a few of those to defect and Labour is in trouble. The Greens offer a living wage, public ownership of rail, higher taxes for the rich, and other policies based on social justice that appeal to large swathes of the electorate.

There is one obvious counterattack Labour can make: vote Green, get a Tory government. Because of the absurdities of first past the post (FPTP), the Greens are unlikely to win any seat other than Brighton Pavilion, already held by the courageous and principled Caroline Lucas. According to Ladbrokes, the Green surge could deliver seats such as Brighton Kemptown, Hove, Stroud, Norwich North and Bristol North West to the Tories. Losers could include Labour leftwingers like Brighton Kemptown’s Nancy Platt, Norwich South’s Clive Lewis, and Lancaster’s Cat Smith.

That will mean five more years of the bedroom tax, the dismantling of the NHS and the stripping away of the welfare state. If Labour lose, Ed Miliband’s successor will almost certainly drag the party to the right, and many Green voters will suffer “buyer’s remorse”: the exhilaration at voting for principles will be eclipsed by despondency at being saddled with another Tory government, deterring them from voting Green again. Few of those who claim there is no meaningful difference between a Labour and Tory government are being hammered by the bedroom tax...

HI everyone.Haven't posted for a while here,I just don't enjoy doing it on my tablet.
Anyway,couple of things.I agree with what Owen Jones is saying here,but maybe if he hadn't spent the last year or so bitching and whining on about Labour it would have been somewhat better.
@Tizme,I'm sorry,but the Greens are definitely trying to split the left vote and are blatantly lying about Labour to do so.With the polls so close this is asking for another tory led govt,and so be it if that's how you vote,but if and when the inevitable happens saying ,oh my life and my friends lives are harder but it isn't my fault it's all Labours fault is dishonest imo.Same goes for SNP voters too.And this thing about 'fear' which some green posters are coming out with has been taken straight out of SNP handbooks,and is so tedious.
Grim,don't go.
Something might make you smile,apparently Boris has paid his US tax bill,remember the one he vowed he wouldn't last year?Hope it was eye watering.

Rebecca, The Greens are a separate party to Labour. As such, they have a right to attract voters by their polices and by pointing out where they disagree with other parties, including Labour. I think you're on dodgy ground if you claim the Greens are lying about Labour given I pointed out Labour party members lying about Greens just yesterday. I'm sorry you consider my opinion tedious but I still have the right to hold it. Frankly, people are trying to instil fear in Green party members/supporters. Why if they aren't fearful themselves? I'm also wondering how you can possibly know what the Greens are trying to do given you aren't a Green party member.

[frightful_oik]

Grimmers, if you're reading this, please have a think about going. Here's why.

FTN is a community, and like all communities its members contributein different ways, using different styles, talking about different subjects generally with a lot of authoratitive knowledge, and generally with wit and sparkle (as well as some anger, sometimes). While I know a lot of people have signed up and don't post, there'll be many who lurk and read - because of the diverse content, the joining up of the dots, and in depth thinking and commentary.

Your posts - on so many subjects - are usually a delight to read (well, I find them observant and frequently funny), and I never feel that you're posting with nothing to say, because even if you're commenting on something that's already been posted, it's going to be worth reading because the of the person that you are.

If you doubt me, look at the number of 'thanks' you've gathered in a short spell of time. Other people value you contributions here, and FTN would be a less interesting, nay absorbing, place if you called it a day. And that's why you should stay.

Ditto that Ernst!

[Tizme1]

One other thing. Grim don't go. If its me that is pissing you off, I doubt I'll be around much. Doesn't seem much point. Before I wander off to get on with other things though, I'll just add the link below. Nothing to do with Green party stuff. When I saw it earlier I wanted to ask what people here thought.

http://akashictimes.co.uk/brits-with-un ... n-holiday/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[frightful_oik]

Remember I saw Liz Kendall at St Pancras last week? Well I'm there again today and I saw Matthew Parris. I had a momentary fantasy about giving him a slap and saying, "Pass that on to Julian you Tory bellend". Sadly the moment passed without incident. Just keeping everyone in the loop like.

[ohsocynical]

First there was this

Mar 22, 2013
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local- ... ry-4191320" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And today there is this.

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/readin ... al-8494227" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rebeccariots2]

Gregg McClymont MP retweeted
David Maddox ‏@DavidPBMaddox 38m38 minutes ago
Just a reminder key welfare powers SNP now complaining about forced back in by Labour after SNP tried to dump them http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3620373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

This links through to a very interesting (geeky Borgen scenario style of thing) article detailing the negotiations over the Smith agreement - who was there, what positions they took, who won what and why etc etc.

[rebeccariots2]

Remember I saw Liz Kendall at St Pancras last week? Well I'm there again today and I saw Matthew Parris. I had a momentary fantasy about giving him a slap and saying, "Pass that on to Julian you Tory bellend". Sadly the moment passed without incident. Just keeping everyone in the loop like.

Who do you think the third sighting might be, oiky?

[yahyah]

Please don't go Grim Squeaker. I'd miss you and your posts a lot.

[ErnstRemarx]

One other thing. Grim don't go. If its me that is pissing you off, I doubt I'll be around much. Doesn't seem much point. Before I wander off to get on with other things though, I'll just add the link below. Nothing to do with Green party stuff. When I saw it earlier I wanted to ask what people here thought.

http://akashictimes.co.uk/brits-with-un ... n-holiday/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd far rather you stayed. Losing two posters in rapid succession would be very sad indeed, and I find your posts interesting.

[edit] - just to add, I like to have my views and assumptions challenged here, otherwise when I'm out in the "real world", knocking on doors, I might not be prepared to argue coherently against whoever's on the other side of that door.

[rebeccariots2]

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 28m 28 minutes ago
TV debates plan B+1. Is Number 10 going to agree this time? http://bit.ly/1xE6LG7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Smithson thinks Cameron won't agree - will find some way of weaselling out. And he thinks 7 participants is far too many to make them good debates.

DUP have already, apparently, said they should be included too. And Galloway has tweeted - 'what about me?'

[ErnstRemarx]

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 28m 28 minutes ago
TV debates plan B+1. Is Number 10 going to agree this time? http://bit.ly/1xE6LG7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Smithson thinks Cameron won't agree - will find some way of weaselling out. And he thinks 7 participants is far too many to make them good debates.

DUP have already, apparently, said they should be included too. And Galloway has tweeted - 'what about me?'

Absolutely nailed on, that. I just hope that if he refuses to co-operate, the debates go ahead and he's empty chaired.

[TechnicalEphemera]

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 28m 28 minutes ago
TV debates plan B+1. Is Number 10 going to agree this time? http://bit.ly/1xE6LG7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Smithson thinks Cameron won't agree - will find some way of weaselling out. And he thinks 7 participants is far too many to make them good debates.

DUP have already, apparently, said they should be included too. And Galloway has tweeted - 'what about me?'

Absolutely nailed on, that. I just hope that if he refuses to co-operate, the debates go ahead and he's empty chaired.

DUP can of course be excluded as they only stand in Northern Ireland and are single issue Union Union Union.

Galloway can be ignored because he is a bit of a muppet.

But Cameron will dodge them.

[yahyah]

Saw today's Western Mail in Lampeter today.

Good to see their front cover headline about Welsh Labour wanting to scrap right to buy.

[danesclose]

Leon Brittan has died.

David Icke has a not-unexpected take on it