Friday, 23rd January 2015

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 6:29 am

Morning All!

For all who haven't read posts from late last night, may I commend in particular one from Hobie Joe

This Forum seems to be going through one of those periods of tension this week and I hope we can pull through again. Here are a few comments I and others have made before:

- we have a ground rule that whatever we are saying to criticise parties and policies we should never question an individual's voting plans

- when you're feeling that your views are being challenged remember everyone else here feels the same (I am pretty much tribal Labour and I've felt heavily criticised for that on many occasions)

- finally, we should remember the electoral system we have forces us to think about the "principled" vs. "tactical" vote issue that seems to underlie so many of these tense moments

Have a great day all and let's try and hold this place together at least until this sodding Coalition has gone

Post by **refitman** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 7:35 am

Morning. Labour lead at 2 points on Yougov:

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 22nd January -

Con 31%, (-2)
Lab 33%, (-1)
LD 7%, (nc)
UKIP 17%, (+3)
GRN 8%; (nc)

APP -23 (+2)

Toby Latimer · Post by **Toby Latimer** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 8:06 am

Couldn't stomach Nuttall, Farron & McVey on the same show (QT) last night.
Besides, I had been mesmerised by the documentary on BBC2 about surviving the Holocaust. The old guy telling his story, quite coherently to camera inter-spliced with harrowing images will stay with me a long time. It was compulsive viewing.

I decided to watch a bit of Newsnight after that, with the first section taken up with a lengthy interview with Gideon, who couldn't tell the truth if his life depended on it.

I was taken aback with the state of his nose though, several people on twitter were suggesting that he has a bum on the end of it

: B7_RVK5IgAEsVWI.jpg (32.3 KiB) Viewed 11480 times

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 8:46 am

[quote="Toby Latimer"]
I decided to watch a bit of Newsnight after that, with the first section taken up with a lengthy interview with Gideon, who couldn't tell the truth if his life depended on it.

I was taken aback with the state of his nose though, several people on twitter were suggesting that he has a bum on the end of it

Steve Bell thinks so too.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 8:46 am

Toby Latimer wrote:Couldn't stomach Nuttall, Farron & McVey on the same show (QT) last night.
Besides, I had been mesmerised by the documentary on BBC2 about surviving the Holocaust. The old guy telling his story, quite coherently to camera inter-spliced with harrowing images will stay with me a long time. It was compulsive viewing.

I decided to watch a bit of Newsnight after that, with the first section taken up with a lengthy interview with Gideon, who couldn't tell the truth if his life depended on it.

I was taken aback with the state of his nose though, several people on twitter were suggesting that he has a bum on the end of it
B7_RVK5IgAEsVWI.jpg

Morning Toby. Agree with you about the BBC2 documentary. The matter of fact way he described it was perhaps the most chilling aspect.
It reminded me a lot of Primo Levi's book "If This Is A Man". Its on BBC iplayer if anyone who missed it wants to watch it
Regarding Gideon, he does seem to be turning into Steve Bell's caricature

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 8:50 am

@RebeccaRiots

Hope you're feeling better this morning.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 9:03 am

Morning all.

One of 'those' mornings when you hope the day is going to get progressively better. Straight out of the back door into the freezing cold - still in dressing gown and PJs - staggering around after the dog with a small bowl to catch her first pee of the day. Glorious. When you've achieved that ... you deserve breakfast.

Thank you Paul for restating and reminding us of the basics re postings here and also why we are posting here. I will regret greatly if people feel they can't hack it and disappear ... of whatever tribal leaning they are ... but respect that may be a decision some feel they have to take. I'm supporting Labour in a marginal seat and will do that with as much commitment as I can - whilst respecting the views and principles of others who may not feel likewise - even when it's hard to hear some of the things I hear. I have also voted Green before when it was possible to make a difference to the outcome - i.e. London Assembly elections, Euro elections - via a PR system. I wouldn't do that here. Having pondered a bit on where I am re our local situation ... I realise that it's also important to me that who I support and vote for has already tried to work on behalf of this community and area in some way - that they've put in the ground work for people and understand what matters. The candidate here has been a Labour councillor, and is now Labour group leader, for a while and has really been working hard to put right some of the awful practices going on in Pembrokeshire County Council.

I'd still like someone with a far better mind than I to be able to interpret the sound and fury that's going on now. Seeingclearly has often written posts that shine a light on things in a very different way and help me process them ... I feel I need something like that. I will stop rambling now.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 9:30 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:Morning all.

One of 'those' mornings when you hope the day is going to get progressively better. Straight out of the back door into the freezing cold - still in dressing gown and PJs - staggering around after the dog with a small bowl to catch her first pee of the day. Glorious. When you've achieved that ... you deserve breakfast.

Thank you Paul for restating and reminding us of the basics re postings here and also why we are posting here. I will regret greatly if people feel they can't hack it and disappear ... of whatever tribal leaning they are ... but respect that may be a decision some feel they have to take. I'm supporting Labour in a marginal seat and will do that with as much commitment as I can - whilst respecting the views and principles of others who may not feel likewise - even when it's hard to hear some of the things I hear. I have also voted Green before when it was possible to make a difference to the outcome - i.e. London Assembly elections, Euro elections - via a PR system. I wouldn't do that here. Having pondered a bit on where I am re our local situation ... I realise that it's also important to me that who I support and vote for has already tried to work on behalf of this community and area in some way - that they've put in the ground work for people and understand what matters. The candidate here has been a Labour councillor, and is now Labour group leader, for a while and has really been working hard to put right some of the awful practices going on in Pembrokeshire County Council.

I'd still like someone with a far better mind than I to be able to interpret the sound and fury that's going on now. Seeingclearly has often written posts that shine a light on things in a very different way and help me process them ... I feel I need something like that. I will stop rambling now.

Morning RR!

I can't write like Seeingclearly, but sometimes I can see clearly

A story that completely shocked me this week relates to Andrea Gada, the 5-year old daughter of a couple from Zimbabwe who have been granted asylum in the UK and live on the South Coast. Little Andrea was killed in a traffic incident a couple of weeks ago. Very sad but sadly nothing unusual yet.

The shock is that when her maternal grandparents applied for visas to come to the UK to their granddaughter's funeral they were refused on the grounds that they don't meet immigration requirements.

Maybe there are some technicalities here that I don't fully appreciate, but I don't believe anyone on this Forum, nor any supporters of Labour, Greens, Nationalists .... would support this heartless policy being enacted in their name.

This is the shameful nation we have become and all of us who will weep at the sheer cruelty of actions like this have a duty to come together to end it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 9:36 am

Good-morning. It's a pleasure to wake & read you all here today.

RR, I read your posts from beginning to end regardless of length. I can't remember a time when I've not done so.

Thank you, Paul, no one can say the FlyTheNest threads are about a complacent set of people coming together to echo each other. If I cause offence or I'm mistaken, it's best for me to know in order to re-evaluate. You'll be doing me a favour by bringing my attention to it.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 9:42 am

Morning all.

After the mention of Argentina (yesterday?) here's an infographic comparing the big countries.

http://qz.com/322759/infographic-how-na ... st-decade/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 9:43 am

Credit where it's due. Well done to the BBC for this one

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30943518" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Coalition changes to taxes and benefits have cost the average UK household £1,127 a year, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 9:44 am

Meanwhile, middle and higher-income households of working age have escaped "remarkably unscathed" from the government's austerity programme, with those without children actually gaining financially from the changes, largely due to increases in the threshold for paying income tax, said the IFS.

from the same source.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 9:47 am

I just think the awfulness of the Coalition and the desperation people are feeling with the sure certainty something must be done, has made us all edgy and frantic.
I'm getting a panicky dread feeling in my chest at the thought of the Conservatives winning or heading another coalition, when in the past although I've been keen to see changes and wanted a better deal for us all, I've haven't felt as if my heart was going to stop if it didn't go the way I wanted it to.

I don't think I'm alone. We have a common cause but are being driven by fear which can be destructive.

Post by **adam** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 9:50 am

On current polling and projections...

1. I can see that it's the kind of blind faith that I would roundly criticise in others who say 'people just won't vote for the labour party' but I find it very difficult to believe that things are extreme as most polling is suggesting in Scotland. I think there is some constituency level Ashcroft polling from Scotland on the way and that might make me change my mind but in the meantime I have no doubt that Labour are going to lose seats to the SNP but I find it very difficult to believe that the final outcome is going to be as extreme as some of the headlines suggest.
2. The really big elephant in the room that reporters and analysts aren't bothering to talk about, though, isn't Scotland, it's England. In 2010 the tories outpolled Labour in England 39.6% to 28.1%. Current polling puts them pretty much neck and neck. Unless there are some very very strange things going on on a constituency by constituency level - if Labour are piling up votes in safe seats and the tories are beautifully spread, which is the opposite of what usually actually happens - then the Tories are going to lose seats to Labour in England. And it's really only in England that the tories can realistically expect to make any gains in the first place - 48 of their top 50 targets are in England.
3. Everything that's been said before about the tories prospects still holds - they couldn't beat a tired out and dejected Labour party with a leader who trailed his party, in the middle of a financial crisis that was being blamed on the government after years of opposition. They lost their consistent poll lead after a year of Government (and by comparison it took labour over 8 years and two further GE wins after 1997 before they fell consisistently behind in the polls) and they are being consistently drained from the right by UKIP, but the really big issue is that in the big region where they need to be making gains, they are going to make losses.
4. We're left with the question of whether Labour can do well enough to win a majority and I suspect that will come back to Scotland, although that probably means that the worst that might happen is a labour/SNP coalition.

But the big issue really isn't Scotland, it's England, because without making gains in Engalnd the tories won't make any gains at all, and they're on course to make losses.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 9:52 am

Toby - posting pictures of The Gidiot's schnozzle in close-up without a health warning is completely unacceptable.
I am now having a fit of the vapours.
On a medical note, I have to point out that Dear George is very fortunate to have that fleshy excess at the end of his hooter.
It disguises any septum collapse occasioned by the sniffing that is alleged to have gone on.
Lord only knows what it'll look like as time goes on.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All - on the subject of general argy-bargy yesterday and previously....

I absolutely understand why Herons' Flight, Temulkar, and even Toby (temporarily, thank goodness) chose to stay away before.
I've certainly had times when I haven't posted here for a while, and feeling a bit unwelcome.

There is no question that various factions get a bit tribal at times; it is equally true that sometimes those feeling marginalised express their views in a combative fashion which doesn't help matters, and leaves people feeling bruised. I can empathise with TGS on that.

What matters is this - that we treat each others' opinions with a bit of respect. That doesn't always happen, and no wonder.
It's my belief that we are living under a government whose viciousness and mendacity is unprecedented - it is rotten to the core.
We may have differing views on how we want to see change, but we all have that wish for change in common.

Example - I support Scottish Independence, not many here agree; I would like to see more devolution for Wales and eventual independence.
I had to bow out of some of the discussions on that because certain individuals called me naive at best and stupid at worst. I do not subscribe to the view that the UK is "better together" and I absolutely believe that Wales has been shafted by Westminster for years.
Another - I have some ideas in common with the Greens, but I am unimpressed with their recent behaviour and I really feel that they should be working with Labour not against them; they are encouraging a split in the left and I am very annoyed about that. As so often with people who are passionate about these things, some of their supporters seem to me to be blinkered regarding the wider picture and the greater good.
Another - I am extremely disappointed with Labour's current stance on social security. I think that Reeves and Green demonstrate a lack of understanding of both the system and the issues arising from it; I think they remain wedded to the Unum-inspired crapola their colleagues embraced with zeal while in government; and I have zero confidence they will improve matters for people like me should they win the GE.

I've crossed swords on more than one occasion with people here on those issues and on others; I've had to stay away on occasion because of it.
I don't like conflict any more than anyone else, but I'm here now and I come back after I've got over my latest grievance for several reasons.
Viz:
Despite the tribalism (and it's good to know that some will admit it exists) I will read intelligent stuff here and reasonable argument.
Away from the bunfight at the G, we can at least escape the trolls and the sheer nastiness and stupidity that political comment has become.
There is something to learn here daily - things I know little about (education, badger culling come to mind) are posted all the time, and it does me no harm to be better informed on those things.
There is also a lot of humour....and recipes (did anyone try my hot chocolate?)

I have to say that I think some of the accusations yesterday annoyed me intensely. We've been here before. I don't think anyone is unwelcome here, and I take the view that when passions take over reasoned argument gets lost. I am as guilty of that as anyone - but I really hate it when people leave for good. I miss Herons' Flight; I will miss TGS.

Meanwhile, I intend to do what has to be done to support Labour - hopefully into government. I will pound the pavements and I will talk to people and I will continue to try to get Matthew Dorrance a bigger share of he local vote even though he has no chance of winning the seat.
Even with my health being what it is, I am determined to get the Labour vote out and into the polling booth.
I am doing this because, even though my particular hopes will not be realised in the foreseeable future, another 5 years of Tory government will kill people. That is not an exaggeration. This coalition has killed people already.

Hunger is now commonplace. Malnutirition is at the highest level since the war. Rickets is back; there have been a few cases of scurvy.
Homelessness, destitution, poor physical and mental health, untoward deaths, and suicides - all on the increase.
Access to social security, housing, health care, psychiatric treatment, social care, emergency support - evaporating.
Rights to privacy, obtaining free rights to justice, hard-won access to Human Rights legislation - going or gone.

This country is rife with mistrust and fear; history shows us that this inevitably leads to factions in politics, and as with Germany in the 30's the rise of the far right is an inevitable consequence - witness the increase in people intending to vote for UKIP.
The last thing we need now is for the left to be split - it plays right into the hands of the Tories, who will use whatever strategy they can find to stay in office and continue to hand our country to their friends while making our lives a misery.

That's why I have no time for the parties of the left which are not prepared to hold their collective noses and support Labour.
I think the state of this country now is such that without a change of government we are heading for a fascist state.
Labour are not ideal or perfect - but they have the immense advantage of not being Tories.
Labour can be negotiated with once in office, as the party structure allows that to happen.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I truly believe that for some of us this is a state of emergency, and there is only one solution.
The Tories must be removed from office. That's the only way the ideology that is killing people will stop.

I respectfully suggest to those who do not agree to have a long hard look at what's happening to the social security system - because what has been done in that department is what will be done in every other job of government if the Tories get in again.
All this internecine squabbling takes no account of the bigger picture - the left must unite against the now rabid right wing in this country or we are in for some serious social unrest and we will witness more deaths, suicides, and marginalisation of the have-nots.

Rant over.

Please come back, TGS. I need you even if you don't need us.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 9:53 am

Morning all...and I'll add my voice to the chorus of 'Don't go, TGS/Tizme' - as I've stated before, I'm really a 'Green' underneath but live in a very safe Tory seat....with a strong BNP element...so to my mind, it's a good chance for UKIP to take a large number of votes from said Tories....leaving the delicious prospect of Labour sneaking in through the back door (Lost Deposits will hopefully live up to their name)...with no Green candidate/local party (the closest are in other constituencies, so if I want to vote Green, they either have to create a constituency party and find a candidate in the next 104 days or I have to move house). These are practical realities so no matter how much I might agree with the re-nationalisation of rail and the utilities, the NHS and everything else they've stolen over the last 35 years, the treatment of people as human beings rather than 'stock' (as per Atos/Maximus/IDS/Lord Fraud/Frank Field), no matter how much I might hate fracking and want to save the planet - the only starting point for any of this is Miliband in No 10 - anything else is another 5 years of Dodgy Dave telling us how fair he thinks everything is, whilst watching the sick, disabled, old, poor, benefit-claiming working families and any(every)one else in the 99% starve and become dehumanised.

On the subject of 'tribalism' - I state once again - I am not now and have never been a member of the Labour Party - I've never voted for the Labour Party - in fact, with Tory Blur at the helm, I was more vocal and critical, as he stole the soul of the Labour movement at the behest of a certain (soon to be disgraced (OK, I know, but I live in Hope

) Australian media mogul. I come from a position of believing(TM) that nothing done by 'Government' over the past 35 years is legitimate and needs to be fully investigated (just a few - miners strike, what happened to the North Sea Oil revenues, was it really a better option to privatise rail, electricity, gas, buses etc etc, remove Legal Aid (I don't mean the latest attack - at one time legal aid in Britain actually covered every citizen under UN Human Rights legislation, enabling a citizen direct recourse against the state and its' government -anyone think of a reason why the Thatcherite-Raygunite-Murkydochian-Bankster elite would want to remove such rights? (I know the 'rationale' used at the time was 'too expensive - too much fraud', but as usual, it was forced through with no evidence that fraud was an issue and we (the soma-taking public) were 'moved on' to another issue. (Any chimes with the actions of todays Thatcherismonsteroidswithouttheintelligenceorgravitas?)

...as ever, I'm not trying to upset anyone (mind you - I've rambled on so much it's probably unintelligible anyway

) - just putting it how I see it...and again, TGS - please don't go...and Tizme don't go and if you see Temulkar tell him I miss him.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 9:59 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Credit where it's due. Well done to the BBC for this one

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30943518" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Coalition changes to taxes and benefits have cost the average UK household £1,127 a year, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

...but but...Empty Dave 'thinks' it's 'fair', so that's all good then

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:00 am

Morning all.

Can only echo the thoughts of others - the more people post here the better for a diversity of opinions.

A heads up for me for next week...

GiftedPhoenix @GiftedPhoenix · 2h 2 hours ago
Education Select Committee: Academies and free schools report to be published on Wednesday 28 January http://bit.ly/1E8OQi6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now this could be interesting as the select committee under Graham Stuart has taken a rather dim view of some of the DfE's more trenchant views on subjects like Ofsted not being allowed to inspect academy trusts, the 'freedom' that schools have once they're in a trust, and the regional commissioners.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:02 am

I am now taking the piss - quite literally - to the vets.

See you later.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:07 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:I am now taking the piss - quite literally - to the vets.

See you later.

Ahaa..I admit to being a little confused by your earlier post - the one that created the image of RR2 following a dog around a frozen garden, with a bowl....I could only think that your animal loving tendencies had got the better of you and you didn't want her to get a cold bum

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:29 am

RobertSnozers wrote:Well said ephe. I think because we're a proper community it hurts that much more when we lose people, or we feel people have lost us.

For my part, this is the only place I can comment about the NHS. As I work in the health service again at the moment, I have to keep things low key and can't really use any accounts that aren't anonymous. Moreover, my Twitter account is related to my other career so I try to keep politics away from it.

At least no-one can suggest we're an echo chamber.

Did OpenSores ever pay us a visit? I know petercs has been over, if only so he can slag off the layout and the 'smugness'. One thing I will say on the layout front is that when people are unhappy with a feature of the site, or make a suggestion to improve it, the mods listen and act - completely unlike the Guardian.

Yes, well said ephe.

I'm sad we've lost people and only hope that they reconsider and start posting again.

(to all who no longer post)

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:30 am

When you get to my age you don't have much future so what happens to your descendants if you're lucky enough to have them takes over, but I'm unable to do that right now.
It's bitterly cold -4 at 9am. The boiler which is set to go on from 7-8am didn't. Mr Ohso who gets up to take our grandson to work came back chilled to the bone and has gone back to bed with the electric fire on. That means I shall have to make savings elsewhere.
Thank goodness we can still just about cope but I can't stop thinking about all those who are unable to. About the little ones going to school cold and hungry. Knowing what it feels like to be old and cold. Remembering what it felt like when I was desperately ill and worried about money.
There is so much suffering in the here and now. So many people deprived of a future who will die prematurely in despair that at present I can't worry about wind farms or subjects like that a couple of generations down the road.

I'm sorry, but I just can't.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:31 am

The somewhat tense mood on here reflects politics more generally at the moment.

Labour loyalists need to accept that many left-leaning people are disappointed with the party - not just for its failings in government, but the fact that the move away from NuLab orthodoxy under Miliband has been more halting and erratic than many hoped. But those people, in turn, have to accept that huge numbers are scared s***less about the prospect of another Tory government - and will naturally view the upsurges for first the SNP and now the Greens with trepidation if not outright hostility.

Yet again one of Gramsci's most enduring and timeless lines comes to mind - "the old is dying but the new cannot yet be born, in the interim arise a great many morbid symptoms".

(and if "morbid symptom" isn't a perfect fit for UKIP's rise, I don't know what is)

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:31 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:I am now taking the piss - quite literally - to the vets.

See you later.

Hope it's nothing serious Rebecca.

giselle97 · Post by **giselle97** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:35 am

Lonewolfie wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:I am now taking the piss - quite literally - to the vets.

See you later.
Ahaa..I admit to being a little confused by your earlier post - the one that created the image of RR2 following a dog around a frozen garden, with a bowl....I could only think that your animal loving tendencies had got the better of you and you didn't want her to get a cold bum

Thanks, RR2 for clearing up the mystery - I was thinking the madness

of your action was related to green grass or vegetables being damaged.

Fingers crossed at the vets.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:40 am

Morning:

"LAB moves to 4% lead with Populus online LAB 36= CON 32-3 LD 9+1 UKIP 13= GRN 6+2"

giselle97 · Post by **giselle97** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:44 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The somewhat tense mood on here reflects politics more generally at the moment.

Labour loyalists need to accept that many left-leaning people are disappointed with the party - not just for its failings in government, but the fact that the move away from NuLab orthodoxy under Miliband has been more halting and erratic than many hoped. But those people, in turn, have to accept that huge numbers are scared s***less about the prospect of another Tory government - and will naturally view the upsurges for first the SNP and now the Greens with trepidation if not outright hostility.

Yet again one of Gramsci's most enduring and timeless lines comes to mind - "the old is dying but the new cannot yet be born, in the interim arise a great many morbid symptoms".

(and if "morbid symptom" isn't a perfect fit for UKIP's rise, I don't know what is)

Well said AK, thank you, though I am struggling a little with "Labour loyalists need to accept that many left-leaning people ...". I think that I'm a Labour loyalist and left-leaning.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 10:53 am

No one rambled in the posts I've read here today.

We want change? We want change? We've got to get in there - get in there for change no matter who is returned to government in May 2015. No matter who is returned to government in May 2015 - many of us our hearts fall through the bottoms of our feet at the thought of Tories-UKIP-LibDem in government - yes - if that happens we'll get in there still - I won't stop & friends won't either - consistent, strong, non-violent, democratic people. Ephemerid reminding us people are dying due to current government is true, I've verified it with all senses, no hyperbole, another five years of Tory leadership isn't okay with me, they frighten me but I won't lie down to die - Ephemerid, I'll be with you, my friend, working to get better leadership in May 2015 & beyond that time.

Accept the unacceptable - it's a mindfulness that allows a bit of distance from shaking fear hoping hoping for one outcome. Very understandable to shake with fear & hope for one outcome. Please accept the unacceptable. Accept the unacceptable & the room gets larger, I calm down & realise Labour will probably get a majority government. Or not.

Anyway, the work we'll do is essentially the same - get in there & do democracy.

We can ramble if we want to; we don't force anyone to read our words, do we? Nope. Breathe. I love you, my friends.

JA

P.S. I'm proud of us, you know? Arguing & disagreeing & writing about it without mayhem. See this everyone? Our friends not logged in? This is good though yeah, it's hard when we've got some major disagreements. But we do the work. Well done.

Labour majority, yes, May 2015.

We'll still have to get in there to work for change.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:01 am

Just two posts on Twitter explains why I don't want to wait.

Anita Bellows ‏@AnitaBellows12 12h12 hours ago
#SackMcVey #BBCqt Remembering Karen Sherlock
pic.twitter.com/4WUhSA66NU
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anita Bellows ‏@AnitaBellows12 12h12 hours ago
#SackMcVey #BBCqt Remembering Chris Cann
pic.twitter.com/x6jL9EYp3n
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:04 am

Good morning.

Harking back to the comments on Evan Davies and Newsnight (which I didn't see) -

The other night I caught Clive Myrie (sp?), one of the presenters on BBC News24, doing the newspaper review. Although he kept interspersing his comments with "I'm just playing devil's advocate here" he did a bloody good job of making the reviewers look at the anti-coalition standpoint and challenge the "received wisdom" crap. I was impressed. I wonder if he still has his job.

giselle97 · Post by **giselle97** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:06 am

I've got 13 tabs open with topics linked by FTNers to read, thanks.

But won't be back until later as my 1999 Ford Focus, which a friend bought for me last spring when my beloved SAAB 93 SE died, has an MOT due early next month and its not going to pass without £££s being spent and my friends won't let me do that. So I have to start what was once an enjoyable experience but is now a stressing chore and check out some replacements - without a fella, because they're all working days, which makes the whole thing frightening as well. Actually, they want me to eliminate from my list first and then someone will come with me for the final three choices -the nitty gritty final decision!

I am armed for [EDITED to delete my tasteless and incorrect and rude remark about Vehicle Sales Representatives*], with loads of little record cards detailing all of the pros and cons of the 6 types of car I'm looking at - all courtesy of two magazines that I bought to read up on the cars. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I actually thank BBC Top Gear (she spits in the direction of Jeremy!) Car Buyers' Guide Winter 2014 for providing huge filtering. Though it may be classed as one of the most popular vehicles on the road, I will not be viewing a Ford Fiesta. Disappointing really as I like my little Focus. Why is the clutch pedal so far away from where I am trying to sit comfortably and correctly behind the steering wheel? I don't think Ford has made provision for short legs.

Wish me luck - I'm a very indecisive person. I am very likely to come back empty handed and further confused.

Sod politics for today!

EDITED as I was really rude about Vehicles Sales Representatives - all of whom I have met today have been brilliantly professional and very helpful.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:12 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morning.

Harking back to the comments on Evan Davies and Newsnight (which I didn't see) -

The other night I caught Clive Myrie (sp?), one of the presenters on BBC News24, doing the newspaper review. Although he kept interspersing his comments with "I'm just playing devil's advocate here" he did a bloody good job of making the reviewers look at the anti-coalition standpoint and challenge the "received wisdom" crap. I was impressed. I wonder if he still has his job.

Welcome back PF

I've missed your posts, for their insight, humour, and of course, edits.

giselle97 · Post by **giselle97** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:14 am

daydreamer wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morning.

Harking back to the comments on Evan Davies and Newsnight (which I didn't see) -

The other night I caught Clive Myrie (sp?), one of the presenters on BBC News24, doing the newspaper review. Although he kept interspersing his comments with "I'm just playing devil's advocate here" he did a bloody good job of making the reviewers look at the anti-coalition standpoint and challenge the "received wisdom" crap. I was impressed. I wonder if he still has his job.
Welcome back PF

I've missed your posts, for their insight, humour, and of course, edits.

Beat me to it dd! Hi PF.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:17 am

@rebeccariots2

I think that your following the dog around with a bowl, rather than a specimen bottle, shows a distinct lack of dedication and ambition. Shame on you.

I hope all goes well with the vet.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:18 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morning.

Harking back to the comments on Evan Davies and Newsnight (which I didn't see) -

The other night I caught Clive Myrie (sp?), one of the presenters on BBC News24, doing the newspaper review. Although he kept interspersing his comments with "I'm just playing devil's advocate here" he did a bloody good job of making the reviewers look at the anti-coalition standpoint and challenge the "received wisdom" crap. I was impressed. I wonder if he still has his job.

Once upon a time it was what presenters were paid to do. Give us all sides of an argument so that we could make our own minds up.

Another change which makes me feel like a dinosaur.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:18 am

Phenomenal increase in locals seeking help.

A survey revealed 58 per cent of respondents' households had run out of money for food at some time.

http://www.barnsley-chronicle.co.uk/new ... eking-help

But of course, they keep telling us that employment is up and wages are up. We've never had it so good

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:27 am

Someone (sorry can't remember who) recently posted about bus services being lost due to the cut-backs.

This is just a local story, but adds to overall picture of decline in the nations transport systems and the inevitable result of continued austerity. It feels like all that was good about this country is being lost.

Sorry, to put a downer on things.

http://www.barnsley-chronicle.co.uk/new ... et-is-axed

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:29 am

Having fun with Hugo and NickyB over there

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:34 am

The criminal justice system is inefficient, time-consuming and too expensive, a new report claims, as a series of recommendations are set out to make it more streamlined.

The system must be streamlined in order to cope with "diminished resources", Sir Brian, who chaired the inquiry into phone-hacking and press ethics, said.

Hmm...how will they define trivial?

In a further suggestion that would require a change in the law, he said the issue of an accused's current right to elect for a jury trial even in what are "perceived to be trivial cases" should be considered.

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/national/ ... -1-7067127

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:37 am

What AK says about "the tense mood" in politics is, I think, endemic in the whole of the country.
I have a sense of a country collectively holding its' breath - or may be I'm just projecting my fears onto others....

Every single day over the past year or so the Tories have indulged in yet another lie, yet another privatisation, yet another restriction on rights, yet another imposition of some egregious condition for compliance on our most vulnerable.
The masks slipped a while ago; the gloves have been off for some time - the fact is they simply don't care any more, lies have become their daily currency, and they are doing what they want in defiance of even their own codes of political behaviour.
It's a source of immense frustration to me that Labour continually fails to challenge the sheer mendacity that the Tories engage in - there have been so many times when they could have and should have that I've lost count.

It's manifestly clear that Labour intends to aim for a majority government - whilst I hope they succeed, I still think it would be helpful if other parties on the left would make some attempt to get behind Labour and negotiate so that there is a better chance of getting the Tories out.

What this nasty bunch of new Tories have managed to do is divide the nation, and the tension that AK talks about is causing people to kvetch and squabble - classic divide-and-rule tactics, and they have worked.
It has worked on the NHS, it has worked on social security, it has worked on economic policy, it is working on green issues, immigration, education and justice - and all the Tory policies have succeeded in polarising opinion and nowhere is that more obvious than in social security where there is a massive cohort of people who seriously believe the propaganda.

I don't think I'm alone in being afraid if another Tory or Tory-led government is returned after the General Election. I am seriously fearful.
I do not like the way people are speaking of their fellow human beings - the nastier groups on the right are saying things (about immigration, ethnic minorities, disabled people, lone parents, and what they call "PC gone mad") which they wouldn't have dared a few years ago.

In time, I want to see a real sea-change in the way this country is run. I want a new politics, a new way of looking at our economy; we need to get real about this very small country's place in the world and we need to start taking care of each other - and it's the job of the people who lead us to be honest about who they are and what they intend to do to make our lives better.

That won't happen for a very long time, if at all - but right now, I think we need to get the Tories out as a matter of urgency, because I do not think I would thrive through another 5 years like this and I might not survive at all if it went on for longer.
That's why I want to see all parties and supporters of the left to get behind Labour now and sort out the detail later. Miliband has somehow managed to keep his party together under extremely difficult circumstances - he could do the same for the country given the chance, IMHO.

I am rapidly losing patience with factions who can't or won't see that - the situation is too serious for such indulgence. Even though I am deeply unimpressed with some of the things Labour is doing (or failing to do) I cannot see a viable suture for our less-privileged and vulnerable citizens without them, and I really hope that the smaller parties will use their votes with a view to the bigger picture.
I'm having to do that because I cannot see another way, and I respectfully suggest that this is the right time to vote tactically where it is known that it will make a difference, even if it means abandoning (temporarily) strongly-held beliefs.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:43 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morning.

Harking back to the comments on Evan Davies and Newsnight (which I didn't see) -

The other night I caught Clive Myrie (sp?), one of the presenters on BBC News24, doing the newspaper review. Although he kept interspersing his comments with "I'm just playing devil's advocate here" he did a bloody good job of making the reviewers look at the anti-coalition standpoint and challenge the "received wisdom" crap. I was impressed. I wonder if he still has his job.

Spellcheck - correct.

This chap is known Chez Ephie as "The permanently surprised Clive" because he always looks, er, surprised.

He is, however, a pretty good egg - he does have a way of cutting through bullshit. He usually just presents news, but on the odd occasion they let him out to play, he does a good job.

A job which he still has.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:44 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Having fun with Hugo and NickyB over there

Is Hugo there, I couldn't tell?

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:45 am

ephemerid wrote:What AK says about "the tense mood" in politics is, I think, endemic in the whole of the country.
I have a sense of a country collectively holding its' breath - or may be I'm just projecting my fears onto others....

Every single day over the past year or so the Tories have indulged in yet another lie, yet another privatisation, yet another restriction on rights, yet another imposition of some egregious condition for compliance on our most vulnerable.
The masks slipped a while ago; the gloves have been off for some time - the fact is they simply don't care any more, lies have become their daily currency, and they are doing what they want in defiance of even their own codes of political behaviour.
It's a source of immense frustration to me that Labour continually fails to challenge the sheer mendacity that the Tories engage in - there have been so many times when they could have and should have that I've lost count.

It's manifestly clear that Labour intends to aim for a majority government - whilst I hope they succeed, I still think it would be helpful if other parties on the left would make some attempt to get behind Labour and negotiate so that there is a better chance of getting the Tories out.

What this nasty bunch of new Tories have managed to do is divide the nation, and the tension that AK talks about is causing people to kvetch and squabble - classic divide-and-rule tactics, and they have worked.
It has worked on the NHS, it has worked on social security, it has worked on economic policy, it is working on green issues, immigration, education and justice - and all the Tory policies have succeeded in polarising opinion and nowhere is that more obvious than in social security where there is a massive cohort of people who seriously believe the propaganda.

I don't think I'm alone in being afraid if another Tory or Tory-led government is returned after the General Election. I am seriously fearful.
I do not like the way people are speaking of their fellow human beings - the nastier groups on the right are saying things (about immigration, ethnic minorities, disabled people, lone parents, and what they call "PC gone mad") which they wouldn't have dared a few years ago.

In time, I want to see a real sea-change in the way this country is run. I want a new politics, a new way of looking at our economy; we need to get real about this very small country's place in the world and we need to start taking care of each other - and it's the job of the people who lead us to be honest about who they are and what they intend to do to make our lives better.

That won't happen for a very long time, if at all - but right now, I think we need to get the Tories out as a matter of urgency, because I do not think I would thrive through another 5 years like this and I might not survive at all if it went on for longer.
That's why I want to see all parties and supporters of the left to get behind Labour now and sort out the detail later. Miliband has somehow managed to keep his party together under extremely difficult circumstances - he could do the same for the country given the chance, IMHO.

I am rapidly losing patience with factions who can't or won't see that - the situation is too serious for such indulgence. Even though I am deeply unimpressed with some of the things Labour is doing (or failing to do) I cannot see a viable suture for our less-privileged and vulnerable citizens without them, and I really hope that the smaller parties will use their votes with a view to the bigger picture.
I'm having to do that because I cannot see another way, and I respectfully suggest that this is the right time to vote tactically where it is known that it will make a difference, even if it means abandoning (temporarily) strongly-held beliefs.

Thanks for expressing some of my thoughts much more articulately than I could have, ephe.

Yes, I too want to see a sea change in the way this country is run, and an end to this failed (for the 99%) 34 year ideology.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:47 am

Nattering with Show about this.

In his customary pithy fashion, he said this - "Bury your differences, and you can bury the Tories"
And he opines that this IS a time for tribalism - get the little tribes attached to the big one and together they can win.

He's right. And that is exactly what the Tories are doing - adapting and fiddling their policies to suit people who might vote UKIP and even though we all know their promises are as empty as their brains and hearts, they are very canny to do that.

daydreamer · Post by **daydreamer** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:49 am

Sheffield hospitals are facing shock cuts of more than £40m – with bosses admitting they will struggle to balance the books.

Health chiefs admitted the cuts – over £10m more than had been expected – were ‘extremely worrying’.

Sheffield Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust – which runs the Royal Hallamshire, Northern General, Weston Park and Charles Clifford Dental Hospital – has revealed it is anticipating losing at least £41.6m of income in the next financial year due to changes in how services are funded.

Mr Priestley’s report also warned city hospitals could face further funding cuts due to the planned introduction of more financial penalties for missing performance targets and ‘potential further contracting losses’.

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/health/lo ... -1-7066654

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:54 am

My friend, Ohso, I hear you.
I love the
All hands on deck
signature

A little bitty boat in the ocean with some people on it effectively teaches the people cooperation is the only way home.

When I was much younger, living with USA family, some in the US military, I learned about their camaraderie. But they were only that way when they weren't armed, I noticed, they glaze over with firearms in their hands. Aside from the weapons, their cohesion as a team was impressive. They understood united we stand, divided we fall. When have firearms done anything but kill someone? Even if it's 'just bad guys'? There's never been a time only 'bad guys' end up dead. So there's no justice at the end of a gun.
"No path toward peace, peace is the path."

I was laughed at because I loved the Rev. Dr. ML King, Thich Nhat Hanh, the Dalai Lama, Gandhi - and their commitment to non-violence.

"You wouldn't be able to practise non-violence, CitizenJAy, if we didn't protect you with firearms," military family said.
"Yeah, double plus good to you too, Granpa...", I'd reply.

My granpa loved me too much to really hurt my feelings but I was regularly laughed at patronisingly, they loved me though so, I learned some things from them, from their cooperation with each other, their discipline, clarity, watchfulness for the entire group.

That Ronald Reagan, he & that Bush family, used loaded-weapon cowboy wrecking the area tearing up vegetation, drinking too much & falling off their horse imagery peaceful cowboys resented. Can you blame peaceful cowboys for having their non-violent animal husbandry & permaculture philosophy impugned? Especially as most the peaceful cowboysforfreedom I knew were vegetarians & didn't keep much livestock, maybe some goats. So I learned about the camaraderie of peaceful cowboysforfreedom.

We never had a problem understanding 'cowboys' was a name including any gender. Anyone can be cowboysforfreedom. Left the firearms alone. You'll shoot your eye out.

cowboysforfreedom

Toby Latimer · Post by **Toby Latimer** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 11:57 am

ohsocynical wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morning.

Harking back to the comments on Evan Davies and Newsnight (which I didn't see) -

The other night I caught Clive Myrie (sp?), one of the presenters on BBC News24, doing the newspaper review. Although he kept interspersing his comments with "I'm just playing devil's advocate here" he did a bloody good job of making the reviewers look at the anti-coalition standpoint and challenge the "received wisdom" crap. I was impressed. I wonder if he still has his job.
Once upon a time it was what presenters were paid to do. Give us all sides of an argument so that we could make our own minds up.

Another change which makes me feel like a dinosaur.

I miss having interrogators such as Brian Walden. Paxo was good for a time but eventually became too egotistical i feel, he developed into a caricature of himself - almost like his Spitting Image character.

I don't mind Andrew Neil occasionally, but he does dominate the BBC political landscape. I would like to see a few more new faces given a chance .

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 12:01 pm

[quote="ephemerid"]

... "I cannot see a viable suture ..."

Hah! I was just about to edit that typo when I realised that a suture is precisely what we need - to sew us all together....

I'll get me coat....

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 12:04 pm

ephemerid wrote: the fact is they simply don't care any more, lies have become their daily currency, and they are doing what they want in defiance of even their own codes of political behaviour.
It's a source of immense frustration to me that Labour continually fails to challenge the sheer mendacity that the Tories engage in - there have been so many times when they could have and should have that I've lost count.

I'm not sure Labour would make any headway, tbh.
I saw Evan Davies with Gideon last night, and he was asking all the right questions, particularly on the subject of where spending cuts would fall. Gideon repeatedly said he'd given 'examples' and Evan's frustration was palpable. I'd like to think that Evan's just not good enough, but I think the truth is as ephe says, they have gone beyond the boundaries of acceptable behaviour.
I always felt that even Tony Blair believed in the truth of what he was saying at the time he said it, this lot don't care.

As for Clive Myrie, I missed it last night but I have previously seen him supporting the coalition line to the point where I switched the tv off, so maybe he really is impartial.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Fri 23 Jan, 2015 12:05 pm

I do miss decent political satire programmes. We don't have anything like them these days. And I'm pretty sure the Beeb was scrupulous in having politicians from opposing sides and giving them an equal say.