Saturday 24th & Sunday 25th January 2015

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:06 pm

Willow904 wrote:
The Green activist in the BBC piece had to be pretty well off, though. He had a huge detached house covered in solar panels and loads of land....I guess what I'm saying is that being green in general is harder when you're poor. New energy efficient boilers, washing machines, cavity wall insulation etc all take a really, really long to pay for themselves in savings, even if you're lucky enough to have the money up front to invest in them. How many people in the lowest income brackets vote or are likely to vote green? (And I mean people who have always been on minimum wage, not those who never went back to proper full-time work after being made redundant, having already paid off their large detached house....). It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to stereotype green supporters, it's just all the ones I've met do actually seem to be middle class and I had assumed this to be generally the case. I'm happy to be put right.

Probably get a few working class political activist votes, but v hard to win broader working class support in a short time.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:06 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote: I can assure you the middle classes will not be voting green. The entire green economic policy is set up to hammer the middle classes, and turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Of course if they do the Tory party will sink without trace.
The Green activist in the BBC piece had to be pretty well off, though. He had a huge detached house covered in solar panels and loads of land....I guess what I'm saying is that being green in general is harder when you're poor. New energy efficient boilers, washing machines, cavity wall insulation etc all take a really, really long to pay for themselves in savings, even if you're lucky enough to have the money up front to invest in them. How many people in the lowest income brackets vote or are likely to vote green? (And I mean people who have always been on minimum wage, not those who never went back to proper full-time work after being made redundant, having already paid off their large detached house....). It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to stereotype green supporters, it's just all the ones I've met do actually seem to be middle class and I had assumed this to be generally the case. I'm happy to be put right.
I thought pretty much the same re the bit on the activist. For a young person emerging into this society and job market now - unless they had parents with money - it would be very very difficult to set themselves up to be able to live like that. The activist was of an age where he had been able to acquire enough assets / land etc to choose to earn only half of the median wage and be able to live on that. I think the options would be very much restricted for people now .... probably have to look at far more community living rather than individual households.

Like community owned wind farms like they have on some Scottish islands? Personally I think it's stuff like that which makes the Tories so anti-onshore wind farms - it's too easy to cut out the middle man!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:07 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:The thing people like Jones need to remember is that Greece is not the UK. When they say we should have an equivalent it isn't clear what that actually means. The UKs debts are not held on a foreign currency and we aren't running a 7% current account credit to pay back those debts.

Yes, these fatuous comparisons of Britain with Greece are very tiresome. Hence Toby Young making one about Labour being Syriza.

Wasn't Jones a big Chavez man? How's that looking?

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:09 pm

Mike Gapes MP ‏@MikeGapes 6m6 minutes ago
Did Cameron know UKIP MEP defector Amjad Bashir was in ultra left Respect in 2012. Seems Tories now dustbin party for any old careerist.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:12 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:The thing people like Jones need to remember is that Greece is not the UK. When they say we should have an equivalent it isn't clear what that actually means. The UKs debts are not held on a foreign currency and we aren't running a 7% current account credit to pay back those debts.

There's definitely an attempt in certain circles to make this result a "bad news for Labour" story though...

Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire 56m56 minutes ago
Labour's sister party in Greece, Pasok, hammered. Syriza's victory tricky for Mili. Warning? Threat? Inspiration? Irrelevant?

In what alternate dimension of reality is this anything other than bullshit?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:14 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:I fear that a lot of the middle classes who have gone off the Tories, will be voting Green.
When it comes to Labour I guarantee there is still a lingering impression of the bad old union days - not the miners - but the car industry and the newspaper print unions and if you dig a little deeper I promise you'd find their mental vision of a Labour voter is still wearing a cloth cap, and a muffler around the neck standing in a factory yard voting for an all out strike. Or living on an estate, with the lager, flat screen TV blah, blah, blah.

Television has a lot to answer for.

In a discussion on FTN a while back we were talking about the working class opting for the Tory party in the past because it was seen as the more respectable party. It wasn't because the Conservatives were going to make people in their position better off. It's all about perception and the Greens are going to fill the Tories spot.
I can assure you the middle classes will not be voting green. The entire green economic policy is set up to hammer the middle classes, and turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Of course if they do the Tory party will sink without trace.

But don't you think there are middle class voters who haven't investigated all the ins and outs of the party they'll vote for?
Aren't we always shaking our heads over Tory, Labour and UKIP [plus Green now] for tribal voting. Who clutch onto one subject and vote on it regardless of how the rest of the agenda might damage them?

I guarantee there will be a lot of Green votes because it's the 'in' thing to do.

Edited to add. And Vivienne Westwood is making it fashionable too.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:17 pm

Cameron willing to take part in TV election debates, say Conservatives
Conservative party chairman says politicians and broadcasters ‘edging towards a solution’ but further talks were needed
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... servatives

What do you reckon they still need talks for .... to make sure Cameron is put in the centre of the podium line up and Farage and Miliband out on the extremities? Cam to get a special step to make him taller? Cam to be given advance warning of all the questions so he can have his debate points scripted well in advance, complete with choreographed gestures to match the words?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:19 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
@Willow94

The Green activist in the BBC piece had to be pretty well off, though. He had a huge detached house covered in solar panels and loads of land....I guess what I'm saying is that being green in general is harder when you're poor. New energy efficient boilers, washing machines, cavity wall insulation etc all take a really, really long to pay for themselves in savings, even if you're lucky enough to have the money up front to invest in them. How many people in the lowest income brackets vote or are likely to vote green? (And I mean people who have always been on minimum wage, not those who never went back to proper full-time work after being made redundant, having already paid off their large detached house....). It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to stereotype green supporters, it's just all the ones I've met do actually seem to be middle class and I had assumed this to be generally the case. I'm happy to be put right.
You are quite right. To be honest some of the voters I was thinking of are the yummie mummy typs. I've heard them. They might have voted for Blair because he wasn't really Labour [He admitted it]. He wasn't in the Labour mold.

It's exactly the point I was trying to get across to Temulka a while back. People can't worry about the future when they need help now.

Thousands like me would love to have all the latest green technology, but can't afford it. Would love to eat only organic, can't afford it. I would love to know the small amount of meat Mr Ohso and I do eat is kindly farmed, but can't afford it.
If we could, it would make a lot of sense to support and ultimately vote Green, but, having been involved in the discussions over the last week and hearing the views of Green and Labour on the environment, I rather think Friends of the Earth are nearer my ideal.

The high quality housing insulation, zero-carbon social housing building, the energy efficient appliances, the renewable energy infrastructure - those kinds of large scale investments require mindful investment. Public transportation investment, local food co-ops, maintaining the wind turbines & solar panels - those are jobs for regular people. Regular people work for a living, we don't choke on capital, on money for money's sake. We work. We make civilisation run properly. The private sector have declined to invest in our country & people for the long term - I'm talking about the big money - multinationals - they've failed to think about the whole & this country has had almost five years of a government sporting with dim thinkers & have abandoned regular people & country they're supposed to represent. There are things individuals can do. There are things we can't do as individuals, we must have collective, cooperative action. People can't give up their private vehicles, for example, unless they really have an alternative. How could anyone pounce on individual people needing to get to work by picking on one person using a car? I hate that kind of thing. Useless, rude. It's government's job to fund, promote, administer projects we can't do on our own.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:19 pm

Given David Cameron's devoted adherence to polite, diplomatic gestures (as in the Saudi case) I'm sure he''ll be first in line to congratulate Syriza.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:24 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Cameron willing to take part in TV election debates, say Conservatives
Conservative party chairman says politicians and broadcasters ‘edging towards a solution’ but further talks were needed
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... servatives
What do you reckon they still need talks for .... to make sure Cameron is put in the centre of the podium line up and Farage and Miliband out on the extremities? Cam to get a special step to make him taller? Cam to be given advance warning of all the questions so he can have his debate points scripted well in advance, complete with choreographed gestures to match the words?

Jeez, isn't it awful? Big baby Cameron. I'm sorry but the man isn't intelligent, isn't compassionate & he's done a lousy job. He's asking for people to keep stroking him? Let's make Dave's life easier? Pathetic. Get a job, Dave. Leave everyone else alone.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:25 pm

PorFavor wrote:Given David Cameron's devoted adherence to polite, diplomatic gestures (as in the Saudi case) I'm sure he''ll be first in line to congratulate Syriza.

But they're not the right sort. <sarcasm>

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:31 pm

Andrew NeilVerified account
‏@afneil
@GreenFutureBrit @JamesDelingpole And why would you join Al Qaeda if you don't believe in violence?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:32 pm

Willow904 wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Willow904 wrote: The Green activist in the BBC piece had to be pretty well off, though. He had a huge detached house covered in solar panels and loads of land....I guess what I'm saying is that being green in general is harder when you're poor. New energy efficient boilers, washing machines, cavity wall insulation etc all take a really, really long to pay for themselves in savings, even if you're lucky enough to have the money up front to invest in them. How many people in the lowest income brackets vote or are likely to vote green? (And I mean people who have always been on minimum wage, not those who never went back to proper full-time work after being made redundant, having already paid off their large detached house....). It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to stereotype green supporters, it's just all the ones I've met do actually seem to be middle class and I had assumed this to be generally the case. I'm happy to be put right.
I thought pretty much the same re the bit on the activist. For a young person emerging into this society and job market now - unless they had parents with money - it would be very very difficult to set themselves up to be able to live like that. The activist was of an age where he had been able to acquire enough assets / land etc to choose to earn only half of the median wage and be able to live on that. I think the options would be very much restricted for people now .... probably have to look at far more community living rather than individual households.
Like community owned wind farms like they have on some Scottish islands? Personally I think it's stuff like that which makes the Tories so anti-onshore wind farms - it's too easy to cut out the middle man!

(my bold)
Yes!!!!

A small group of influential people seem to need to have the power to threaten people with lights & heat going off in order to get themselves through their miserable lives.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:33 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Cameron willing to take part in TV election debates, say Conservatives
Conservative party chairman says politicians and broadcasters ‘edging towards a solution’ but further talks were needed
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... servatives
What do you reckon they still need talks for .... to make sure Cameron is put in the centre of the podium line up and Farage and Miliband out on the extremities? Cam to get a special step to make him taller? Cam to be given advance warning of all the questions so he can have his debate points scripted well in advance, complete with choreographed gestures to match the words?

He's probably checked the Margaret Thatcher manual on media manipulation. She used to insist on knowing the questions before she appeared.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:35 pm

citizenJA wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
@Willow94

The Green activist in the BBC piece had to be pretty well off, though. He had a huge detached house covered in solar panels and loads of land....I guess what I'm saying is that being green in general is harder when you're poor. New energy efficient boilers, washing machines, cavity wall insulation etc all take a really, really long to pay for themselves in savings, even if you're lucky enough to have the money up front to invest in them. How many people in the lowest income brackets vote or are likely to vote green? (And I mean people who have always been on minimum wage, not those who never went back to proper full-time work after being made redundant, having already paid off their large detached house....). It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to stereotype green supporters, it's just all the ones I've met do actually seem to be middle class and I had assumed this to be generally the case. I'm happy to be put right.
You are quite right. To be honest some of the voters I was thinking of are the yummie mummy typs. I've heard them. They might have voted for Blair because he wasn't really Labour [He admitted it]. He wasn't in the Labour mold.

It's exactly the point I was trying to get across to Temulka a while back. People can't worry about the future when they need help now.

Thousands like me would love to have all the latest green technology, but can't afford it. Would love to eat only organic, can't afford it. I would love to know the small amount of meat Mr Ohso and I do eat is kindly farmed, but can't afford it.
If we could, it would make a lot of sense to support and ultimately vote Green, but, having been involved in the discussions over the last week and hearing the views of Green and Labour on the environment, I rather think Friends of the Earth are nearer my ideal.
The high quality housing insulation, zero-carbon social housing building, the energy efficient appliances, the renewable energy infrastructure - those kinds of large scale investments require mindful investment. Public transportation investment, local food co-ops, maintaining the wind turbines & solar panels - those are jobs for regular people. Regular people work for a living, we don't choke on capital, on money for money's sake. We work. We make civilisation run properly. The private sector have declined to invest in our country & people for the long term - I'm talking about the big money - multinationals - they've failed to think about the whole & this country has had almost five years of a government sporting with dim thinkers & have abandoned regular people & country they're supposed to represent. There are things individuals can do. There are things we can't do as individuals, we must have collective, cooperative action. People can't give up their private vehicles, for example, unless they really have an alternative. How could anyone pounce on individual people needing to get to work by picking on one person using a car? I hate that kind of thing. Useless, rude. It's government's job to fund, promote, administer projects we can't do on our own.

If you're saying that an environmentalist agenda needs proper socialism to make it effective on a scale large enough to really save the planet, then yes, unless we return to small hunter gatherer communities, I suspect you're right. If you're asking if the Greens believe in the socialist ideology I suspect is necessary to implement their green revolution, I have no idea. Indeed, in some ways, the likes of a citizen's income don't actually sound anywhere near radical enough to turn the tide of global deforestation and land degradation. The way Natalie Bennett was talking today about it freeing individuals up to be innovative and start a business made her sound more like a individualist classic liberal than a socialist green warrior.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:36 pm

Paul Mason @paulmasonnews · 1h 1 hour ago
Second exit polls due soon -- my latest from Athens http://bit.ly/15wOeUd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Really good update with some thoughts about the future.

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:37 pm

citizenJA wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Cameron willing to take part in TV election debates, say Conservatives
Conservative party chairman says politicians and broadcasters ‘edging towards a solution’ but further talks were needed
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... servatives
What do you reckon they still need talks for .... to make sure Cameron is put in the centre of the podium line up and Farage and Miliband out on the extremities? Cam to get a special step to make him taller? Cam to be given advance warning of all the questions so he can have his debate points scripted well in advance, complete with choreographed gestures to match the words?
Jeez, isn't it awful? Big baby Cameron. I'm sorry but the man isn't intelligent, isn't compassionate & he's done a lousy job. He's asking for people to keep stroking him? Let's make Dave's life easier? Pathetic. Get a job, Dave. Leave everyone else alone.

In Parliament you can tell untruths with impunity, at the debates you can be called up on it. I can't see him doing any of them. But then I think he's a coward in many ways.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:40 pm

From Sky

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:43 pm

citizenJA wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
@Willow94

The Green activist in the BBC piece had to be pretty well off, though. He had a huge detached house covered in solar panels and loads of land....I guess what I'm saying is that being green in general is harder when you're poor. New energy efficient boilers, washing machines, cavity wall insulation etc all take a really, really long to pay for themselves in savings, even if you're lucky enough to have the money up front to invest in them. How many people in the lowest income brackets vote or are likely to vote green? (And I mean people who have always been on minimum wage, not those who never went back to proper full-time work after being made redundant, having already paid off their large detached house....). It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to stereotype green supporters, it's just all the ones I've met do actually seem to be middle class and I had assumed this to be generally the case. I'm happy to be put right.
You are quite right. To be honest some of the voters I was thinking of are the yummie mummy typs. I've heard them. They might have voted for Blair because he wasn't really Labour [He admitted it]. He wasn't in the Labour mold.

It's exactly the point I was trying to get across to Temulka a while back. People can't worry about the future when they need help now.

Thousands like me would love to have all the latest green technology, but can't afford it. Would love to eat only organic, can't afford it. I would love to know the small amount of meat Mr Ohso and I do eat is kindly farmed, but can't afford it.
If we could, it would make a lot of sense to support and ultimately vote Green, but, having been involved in the discussions over the last week and hearing the views of Green and Labour on the environment, I rather think Friends of the Earth are nearer my ideal.
The high quality housing insulation, zero-carbon social housing building, the energy efficient appliances, the renewable energy infrastructure - those kinds of large scale investments require mindful investment. Public transportation investment, local food co-ops, maintaining the wind turbines & solar panels - those are jobs for regular people. Regular people work for a living, we don't choke on capital, on money for money's sake. We work. We make civilisation run properly. The private sector have declined to invest in our country & people for the long term - I'm talking about the big money - multinationals - they've failed to think about the whole & this country has had almost five years of a government sporting with dim thinkers & have abandoned regular people & country they're supposed to represent. There are things individuals can do. There are things we can't do as individuals, we must have collective, cooperative action. People can't give up their private vehicles, for example, unless they really have an alternative. How could anyone pounce on individual people needing to get to work by picking on one person using a car? I hate that kind of thing. Useless, rude. It's government's job to fund, promote, administer projects we can't do on our own.

If you're saying that an environmentalist agenda needs proper socialism to make it effective on a scale large enough to really save the planet, then yes, unless we return to small hunter gatherer communities, I suspect you're right. If you're asking if the Greens believe in the socialist ideology I suspect is necessary to implement their green revolution, I have no idea. Indeed, in some ways, the likes of a citizen's income don't actually sound anywhere near radical enough to turn the tide of global deforestation and land degradation. The way Natalie Bennett was talking today about it freeing individuals up to be innovative and start a business made her sound more like a individualist classic liberal than a socialist green warrior.

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:43 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Paul Mason @paulmasonnews · 1h 1 hour ago
Second exit polls due soon -- my latest from Athens http://bit.ly/15wOeUd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Really good update with some thoughts about the future.

I've not been following this so this quote has foxed me.

It looks like the neo-Nazi party Golden Dawn are tied with a new Blairite centre party each getting 6.4 to 8 per cent.

How did 'Blairite' end up as a term in an article about Greek politics?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:46 pm

PS 151 seats needed for absolute majority in Greece

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:48 pm

@Willow

If you're saying that an environmentalist agenda needs proper socialism to make it effective on a scale large enough to really save the planet, then yes, unless we return to small hunter gatherer communities, I suspect you're right. If you're asking if the Greens believe in the socialist ideology I suspect is necessary to implement their green revolution, I have no idea. Indeed, in some ways, the likes of a citizen's income don't actually sound anywhere near radical enough to turn the tide of global deforestation and land degradation. The way Natalie Bennett was talking today about it freeing individuals up to be innovative and start a business made her sound more like a individualist classic liberal than a socialist green warrior.

When people say the Green Party, I suspect they have a mental picture of Greenpeace or Friends of the Earth.
I think they're far from that.

Having a rosy picture of how it could be done is nothing like the reality.

Gaining power and then learning all the secrets, necessary backdoor deals, shenanigans, backstabbing and general skulduggery that is and always has been part of running a county is a whole new ball game. The one thing politics is not, is simple and straightforward.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:48 pm

Cameron is going to have to do some serious rehearsing re how he engages with the women leaders in these debates. He's been appalling in his patronising and over entitled attitude in the Commons when answering questions from and debating with women. And it's pretty clear he has virtually no ability or desire to try to grasp at understanding the impact of Condem / Tory policies on women - and how devastating they have been.

He won't get away with being seen to be in any way pompous or belittling. And I imagine the actual order of the line up is going to be closely scrutinised by Cameron / Crosby / Shapps re the best positioning for Cameron. Will he want to be surrounded by the 3 women - to make him stand out as the man (what an euuuchh thought). Or will he be hoping that's the place reserved for Miliband to try and make him look like a sissy ... (I am only trying to enter into the Cameron / Crosby mindset here - I do not think women are sissies).

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:51 pm

For anyone who just needs a smile

#UkipFilmTitles

https://twitter.com/hashtag/UkipFilmTitles?src=hash" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:51 pm

diGriz wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Paul Mason @paulmasonnews · 1h 1 hour ago
Second exit polls due soon -- my latest from Athens http://bit.ly/15wOeUd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Really good update with some thoughts about the future.
I've not been following this so this quote has foxed me.
It looks like the neo-Nazi party Golden Dawn are tied with a new Blairite centre party each getting 6.4 to 8 per cent.
How did 'Blairite' end up as a term in an article about Greek politics?

He's a reference point everywhere doncha know. No, seriously, I imagine it's just Paul Mason using a terminology that he thinks most of his UK readers will get.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:51 pm

diGriz wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: What do you reckon they still need talks for .... to make sure Cameron is put in the centre of the podium line up and Farage and Miliband out on the extremities? Cam to get a special step to make him taller? Cam to be given advance warning of all the questions so he can have his debate points scripted well in advance, complete with choreographed gestures to match the words?
Jeez, isn't it awful? Big baby Cameron. I'm sorry but the man isn't intelligent, isn't compassionate & he's done a lousy job. He's asking for people to keep stroking him? Let's make Dave's life easier? Pathetic. Get a job, Dave. Leave everyone else alone.
In Parliament you can tell untruths with impunity, at the debates you can be called up on it. I can't see him doing any of them. But then I think he's a coward in many ways.

It's always been my suspicion that they won't happen because Cameron needs them not to happen. If nothing comes along to upset the entire apple cart and Cameron is forced to attend or refuse, I'll be pleasantly surprised. Currently the DUP seem to be playing the spanner in the works role, but I'm not sure how that works when no party in the TV debates stands in Northern Ireland and therefore the DUPs absence doesn't actually disadvantage them.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:52 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Above, any chance of posting the URL my web browser throws away FTN embedded you tube.

So does mine on this loan machine – a 2010 Intel-based Macbook. I've been trying to work out why and fix it but decided I wasn't in the frame of mind for dealing with it.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:52 pm

diGriz wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote: What do you reckon they still need talks for .... to make sure Cameron is put in the centre of the podium line up and Farage and Miliband out on the extremities? Cam to get a special step to make him taller? Cam to be given advance warning of all the questions so he can have his debate points scripted well in advance, complete with choreographed gestures to match the words?
Jeez, isn't it awful? Big baby Cameron. I'm sorry but the man isn't intelligent, isn't compassionate & he's done a lousy job. He's asking for people to keep stroking him? Let's make Dave's life easier? Pathetic. Get a job, Dave. Leave everyone else alone.
In Parliament you can tell untruths with impunity, at the debates you can be called up on it. I can't see him doing any of them. But then I think he's a coward in many ways.

What must be causing some concern at head office is his reputation for never answering a question, which puts him in a very awkward position if he has to do 'cold turkey' as it were.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 7:55 pm

Willow904 wrote:
diGriz wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Jeez, isn't it awful? Big baby Cameron. I'm sorry but the man isn't intelligent, isn't compassionate & he's done a lousy job. He's asking for people to keep stroking him? Let's make Dave's life easier? Pathetic. Get a job, Dave. Leave everyone else alone.
In Parliament you can tell untruths with impunity, at the debates you can be called up on it. I can't see him doing any of them. But then I think he's a coward in many ways.
It's always been my suspicion that they won't happen because Cameron needs them not to happen. If nothing comes along to upset the entire apple cart and Cameron is forced to attend or refuse, I'll be pleasantly surprised. Currently the DUP seem to be playing the spanner in the works role, but I'm not sure how that works when no party in the TV debates stands in Northern Ireland and therefore the DUPs absence doesn't actually disadvantage them.

I thought the Lib Dems had objected to losing out on a 3 way debate as well? They say they should have the right to defend their record as a party of government as Cameron will be doing for the Tories in the debate with Miliband.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:01 pm

On the Middle class not voting Green thing you have to remember that you can always find a few wealthy people prepared to pay loads of tax, but you can't find very many.

The middle class are being squeezed, but they are still wealthy and the vast majority will not vote for a party that threatens their wealth. They might be prepared to pay a little more for a fairer society but once they start losing half their disposable income red lights flash.

The Greens will appeal to students, they don't have money and they are idealists, but once they start having kids and well paying jobs they will jump ship.

So the Green surge won't come from the middle class.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:13 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
diGriz wrote: In Parliament you can tell untruths with impunity, at the debates you can be called up on it. I can't see him doing any of them. But then I think he's a coward in many ways.
It's always been my suspicion that they won't happen because Cameron needs them not to happen. If nothing comes along to upset the entire apple cart and Cameron is forced to attend or refuse, I'll be pleasantly surprised. Currently the DUP seem to be playing the spanner in the works role, but I'm not sure how that works when no party in the TV debates stands in Northern Ireland and therefore the DUPs absence doesn't actually disadvantage them.
I thought the Lib Dems had objected to losing out on a 3 way debate as well? They say they should have the right to defend their record as a party of government as Cameron will be doing for the Tories in the debate with Miliband.

The Lib Dems will simply be ignored, at 6% in the polls they cannot argue that they will lead a government.

What has changed, and what I think Cameron didn't see coming is the broadcasters decision to agree to empty chair no-shows. Cameron has a problem he has to go head to head with Miliband; and he doesn't want to do that.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:17 pm

Bloody hell. Vicky Pryce is being interviewed on BBC News24 re the Greek election and its economic ramifications. Oh, it's over now. Very, um, speedy interview.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:18 pm

Jim ‏@s11jim · 9h9 hours ago  Sheffield, England
If Bashir defection was masterminded by @grantshapps is there any wonder it's playing out like an episode of Some Mothers do 'ave 'em #bbcsp
Made me laugh...

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:22 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Above, any chance of posting the URL my web browser throws away FTN embedded you tube.
So does mine on this loan machine – a 2010 Intel-based Macbook. I've been trying to work out why and fix it but decided I wasn't in the frame of mind for dealing with it.

It could be something like Adobe Flash Player needing updating.

http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you try it remember to untick the 'special' offer to install McAfee on your computer.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:22 pm

Willow904 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
ohsocynical wrote: You are quite right. To be honest some of the voters I was thinking of are the yummie mummy typs. I've heard them. They might have voted for Blair because he wasn't really Labour [He admitted it]. He wasn't in the Labour mold.

It's exactly the point I was trying to get across to Temulka a while back. People can't worry about the future when they need help now.

Thousands like me would love to have all the latest green technology, but can't afford it. Would love to eat only organic, can't afford it. I would love to know the small amount of meat Mr Ohso and I do eat is kindly farmed, but can't afford it.
If we could, it would make a lot of sense to support and ultimately vote Green, but, having been involved in the discussions over the last week and hearing the views of Green and Labour on the environment, I rather think Friends of the Earth are nearer my ideal.
The high quality housing insulation, zero-carbon social housing building, the energy efficient appliances, the renewable energy infrastructure - those kinds of large scale investments require mindful investment. Public transportation investment, local food co-ops, maintaining the wind turbines & solar panels - those are jobs for regular people. Regular people work for a living, we don't choke on capital, on money for money's sake. We work. We make civilisation run properly. The private sector have declined to invest in our country & people for the long term - I'm talking about the big money - multinationals - they've failed to think about the whole & this country has had almost five years of a government sporting with dim thinkers & have abandoned regular people & country they're supposed to represent. There are things individuals can do. There are things we can't do as individuals, we must have collective, cooperative action. People can't give up their private vehicles, for example, unless they really have an alternative. How could anyone pounce on individual people needing to get to work by picking on one person using a car? I hate that kind of thing. Useless, rude. It's government's job to fund, promote, administer projects we can't do on our own.
If you're saying that an environmentalist agenda needs proper socialism to make it effective on a scale large enough to really save the planet, then yes, unless we return to small hunter gatherer communities, I suspect you're right. If you're asking if the Greens believe in the socialist ideology I suspect is necessary to implement their green revolution, I have no idea. Indeed, in some ways, the likes of a citizen's income don't actually sound anywhere near radical enough to turn the tide of global deforestation and land degradation. The way Natalie Bennett was talking today about it freeing individuals up to be innovative and start a business made her sound more like a individualist classic liberal than a socialist green warrior.

The first thing - cooperative socialism is essential. I don't know a lot about the Green party at this time. I want no trouble with Greens. I'm a Labour party member & supporter.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:27 pm

Spacedone wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Above, any chance of posting the URL my web browser throws away FTN embedded you tube.
So does mine on this loan machine – a 2010 Intel-based Macbook. I've been trying to work out why and fix it but decided I wasn't in the frame of mind for dealing with it.
It could be something like Adobe Flash Player needing updating.

http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you try it remember to untick the 'special' offer to install McAfee on your computer.

Not on my browser, it doesn't run flash being ios.

It works on other sites, not FTN.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:34 pm

From AS Blog
"Meanwhile, co-chairman of the Greens parliamentary group, Anton Hofreiter told the Rheinischen Post the party was in favour of a conditional haircut in return for social and economic reforms in Greece. “Together with the new Greek government, the EU and the German government should seek ways to give the people in Greece perspective again,” he said."

Good to see some support on the "haircutting" but can Greece do any more "social and economic reforms" ? From what I've read, not much more left that they can cut/sell.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:36 pm

Philip Collins ‏@PCollinsTimes 37m37 minutes ago
@afneil's interview with @natalieben was first class. He was well-informed, rigorous and fair. Politics at that level should be tough.

Daniel Finkelstein ‏@Dannythefink 35m35 minutes ago
@PCollinsTimes @afneil @natalieben I agree, it was superb. The problem she had wasn't her performance, it was that the policies are absurd.

Random noise ‏@noise_random 17m17 minutes ago
@Dannythefink @PCollinsTimes @afneil @natalieben Does no one on the right, economically literate, support the citizens wage? How sad

‏@afneil
@noise_random @Dannythefink @PCollinsTimes @natalieben Some on right do support citizen's wage.Milton Friedman invented it!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:41 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
@Willow

If you're saying that an environmentalist agenda needs proper socialism to make it effective on a scale large enough to really save the planet, then yes, unless we return to small hunter gatherer communities, I suspect you're right. If you're asking if the Greens believe in the socialist ideology I suspect is necessary to implement their green revolution, I have no idea. Indeed, in some ways, the likes of a citizen's income don't actually sound anywhere near radical enough to turn the tide of global deforestation and land degradation. The way Natalie Bennett was talking today about it freeing individuals up to be innovative and start a business made her sound more like a individualist classic liberal than a socialist green warrior.
When people say the Green Party, I suspect they have a mental picture of Greenpeace or Friends of the Earth.
I think they're far from that.

Having a rosy picture of how it could be done is nothing like the reality.

Gaining power and then learning all the secrets, necessary backdoor deals, shenanigans, backstabbing and general skulduggery that is and always has been part of running a county is a whole new ball game. The one thing politics is not, is simple and straightforward.

(my bold)
I wholeheartedly agree generally speaking power will create shenanigans, yep.
I don't know if I agree all politics is necessarily nasty, Ohso. I think life isn't simple or straightforward sometimes & of course politics is part of life. I hope I'm not too naive, I don't think so. Lots of people I know have done the right thing in their leadership positions, modest though the leadership role may have been. I learned from them. But that was local government. I tell you plain I don't care for battles that don't need fighting. Contention for its own sake. What a waste.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:51 pm

Cameron willing to take part in TV election debates, say Conservatives
Conservative party chairman says politicians and broadcasters ‘edging towards a solution’ but further talks were needed

(my bold)

Has anyone told Dave yet?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... servatives" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:51 pm

Bill Esterson ‏@BillEstersonMP 10m10 minutes ago
Senior Birkdale Lib Dem councillor declares support for Labour http://shar.es/1bDRMr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; vote @LizSavagelabour @SouthportLabour

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:52 pm

Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire · 1h1 hour ago
Flibbertigibbet MEP Amjad Bashir was a member of Labour as well as Respect, Ukip and now Cons? Lucky Lib Dem escape. Ta @tomwilson23

Bit of a wanderer it seems..

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:53 pm

Grant Shapps, the Tory party chairman, said that the politicians and broadcasters were “edging towards a solution” and, when asked whether he was saying yes or no to Cameron turning up, he replied: “It’s a yes.”

Party sources later said Shapps meant Cameron was in favour of participating in principle, not that he was giving a binding commitment, and that further talks needed to take place.

Oh, for chrissake...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 8:56 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire · 1h1 hour ago
Flibbertigibbet MEP Amjad Bashir was a member of Labour as well as Respect, Ukip and now Cons? Lucky Lib Dem escape. Ta @tomwilson23

Bit of a wanderer it seems..

I don't care for that kind of thing. I hope I don't offend anyone with that. Maybe making one change, I can understand that, but more than that it's hard to know what that candidate is about.

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 9:02 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Grant Shapps, the Tory party chairman, said that the politicians and broadcasters were “edging towards a solution” and, when asked whether he was saying yes or no to Cameron turning up, he replied: “It’s a yes.”

Party sources later said Shapps meant Cameron was in favour of participating in principle, not that he was giving a binding commitment, and that further talks needed to take place.
Oh, for chrissake...

I like Grant nice but Green.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 9:03 pm

citizenJA wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Kevin Maguire ‏@Kevin_Maguire · 1h1 hour ago
Flibbertigibbet MEP Amjad Bashir was a member of Labour as well as Respect, Ukip and now Cons? Lucky Lib Dem escape. Ta @tomwilson23

Bit of a wanderer it seems..
I don't care for that kind of thing. I hope I don't offend anyone with that. Maybe making one change, I can understand that, but more than that it's hard to know what that candidate is about.

Yes. Almost Churchillian . . .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 9:06 pm

diGriz wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Grant Shapps, the Tory party chairman, said that the politicians and broadcasters were “edging towards a solution” and, when asked whether he was saying yes or no to Cameron turning up, he replied: “It’s a yes.”

Party sources later said Shapps meant Cameron was in favour of participating in principle, not that he was giving a binding commitment, and that further talks needed to take place.
Oh, for chrissake...
I like Grant nice but Green.

Surely, if anything, the Chairman should be clarifying what other party members have said - and not the other way around? He's a real ass(et), isn't he?

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 9:14 pm

PorFavor wrote:
diGriz wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Oh, for chrissake...
I like Grant nice but Green.
Surely, if anything, the Chairman should be clarifying what other party members have said - and not the other way around? He's a real ass(et), isn't he?

It's as if someone weaponised the village idiot.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 9:19 pm

Fiscal aims and austerity: the parties’ plans compared IFS

http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publicati ... /BN158.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically : Tories have “rolling targets” & “extended forecast horizon", Labour much clearer

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sun 25 Jan, 2015 9:25 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:I fear that a lot of the middle classes who have gone off the Tories, will be voting Green.
When it comes to Labour I guarantee there is still a lingering impression of the bad old union days - not the miners - but the car industry and the newspaper print unions and if you dig a little deeper I promise you'd find their mental vision of a Labour voter is still wearing a cloth cap, and a muffler around the neck standing in a factory yard voting for an all out strike. Or living on an estate, with the lager, flat screen TV blah, blah, blah.

Television has a lot to answer for.

In a discussion on FTN a while back we were talking about the working class opting for the Tory party in the past because it was seen as the more respectable party. It wasn't because the Conservatives were going to make people in their position better off. It's all about perception and the Greens are going to fill the Tories spot.
I can assure you the middle classes will not be voting green. The entire green economic policy is set up to hammer the middle classes, and turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Of course if they do the Tory party will sink without trace.
But don't you think there are middle class voters who haven't investigated all the ins and outs of the party they'll vote for?
Aren't we always shaking our heads over Tory, Labour and UKIP [plus Green now] for tribal voting. Who clutch onto one subject and vote on it regardless of how the rest of the agenda might damage them?

I guarantee there will be a lot of Green votes because it's the 'in' thing to do.

Edited to add. And Vivienne Westwood is making it fashionable too.

Does anybody take Vivienne Westwood seriously these days?