Saturday 24th & Sunday 25th January 2015

Post by **refitman** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 8:58 am

Morning all.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 9:07 am

Scottish Labour pledge to halt fracking
http://www.foe-scotland.org.uk/Scottish-Labour-fracking

“Mr Murphy’s announcement today is to a serious challenge to the Scottish Government to get off the fence and act now to stop unconventional gas extraction in Scotland. On Monday, the SNP’s MPs get the chance to vote for a moratorium in the debate on the Infrastructure Bill. This will be the first public test of whether they will protect communities and the climate. Unconventional gas is unsafe, unnecessary and unwanted, the Scottish Government should focus on making the most of our abundant renewable resources instead.

“Labour are also becoming stronger on fracking and unconventional gas at the UK level and we hope Jim Murphy’s move in Scotland will encourage them to be even bolder.”

SNP people seem to be coming out of the woodwork re fracking moratorium vote after this announcement.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 9:13 am

Ukip's official health spokesperson: 'Honestly, I have no experience in health whatsoever'
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 99487.html

Ms Bours, a former actress, mother-of-two and town councillor in her native Cheshire, was sent to Brussels with 23 other MEPs in Ukip’s most successful ever election last May.

They should update that - she's been disqualified as a councillor for not attending any meetings. She sounds like a really good person to have in an important job like health.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 9:39 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Ukip's official health spokesperson: 'Honestly, I have no experience in health whatsoever'
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 99487.html

Ms Bours, a former actress, mother-of-two and town councillor in her native Cheshire, was sent to Brussels with 23 other MEPs in Ukip’s most successful ever election last May.
They should update that - she's been disqualified as a councillor for not attending any meetings. She sounds like a really good person to have in an important job like health.

I've sent them an email, with a link to the Times article about it. I shall let you know if I hear anything back.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 9:47 am

Morning.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/patr ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MPs' inquiry: Five things we've learned about benefit sanctions

1. It’s official: sanctions are bad for your health
2. If you are ill to start with, sanctions are really, really bad for your health
3. Sanctioning is a postcode lottery
4. Many sanctioned people “disappear” - but why?
5. Jobcentre staff feel under pressure to sanction claimants inappropriately

"As a [jobcentre] we are very closely monitored around around sanctions rates. Each week [there is]... a print out of the percentage of sanction decisions we are making. This is clearly a bullying tool in order to bring LMDMs [labour market decision-makers, or people who decide on whether to apply a sanction] into line with senior management’s requirement for 80% of referrals to be a sanction"

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:06 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Ukip's official health spokesperson: 'Honestly, I have no experience in health whatsoever'
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 99487.html

Ms Bours, a former actress, mother-of-two and town councillor in her native Cheshire, was sent to Brussels with 23 other MEPs in Ukip’s most successful ever election last May.
They should update that - she's been disqualified as a councillor for not attending any meetings. She sounds like a really good person to have in an important job like health.

When I read something like this, I'm reminded of another saying:

Money for old rope.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:28 am

Salient point I took from watching the evidence session that Patrick Butler was referring to was the attitude exhibited by some ,gleaned by the phrase"but they are jobseekers".Even ignoring the fact,well actually a significant amount of people affected are not;the "so what" response was hideously indicative that they really don't give a ~~~#

WE know that but not a nice experience to witness such confirmation in the context of being faced with the consequences of their (in)actions.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:31 am

To those gloating about football last night - we will win the replay

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:38 am

He voted Lib Dem five years ago because they “seemed a good alternative: something new; something a bit different. Vince Cable was a big part of it. I liked him a lot. He was the only one who managed to call the crash, wasn’t he? And I was a bit bored with the main two parties.”

But on 7 May this year, Beaton will switch to the Conservatives. He says there’s more of a sense of urgency this time: the seat where he’ll vote will be won by the Tories or Labour, and he’d rather have the former in government. “The economy’s the only thing that matters, really. Everything feeds off that. And, as far as that’s concerned, the Conservatives are a safer bet. There’s a lot they’ve done that I don’t like. But that’s the main, solid reason.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ging-lanes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Our fate is in their hands. A bit alarming really. Good article though. It just shows how hopeless it all is on a national scale. People catch scraps of political news in passing and form the most bonkers opinions as a result. The only way to really reach people is locally - good local councillors, who embody their party's principles, who can connect with people in everyday life. National press clearly just isn't capable of putting across what parties stand for any more, it's just too full of made up crap and spin.

Morning, btw.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:54 am

Vivienne Westwood has just donated £300k to the Greens apparently. This must make their fielding a full slate at the coming GE a genuine possibility?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 10:56 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Vivienne Westwood has just donated £300k to the Greens apparently. This must make their fielding a full slate at the coming GE a genuine possibility?

It is a way to look socially responsible, while helping out the Tory Party.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 11:16 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Vivienne Westwood has just donated £300k to the Greens apparently. This must make their fielding a full slate at the coming GE a genuine possibility?
It is a way to look socially responsible, while helping out the Tory Party.

It will be interesting in the aftermath to see the effect of the "Green surge". I'm not sure it's 100% obvious that the Tories will benefit from it, given they haven't a hope of forming the next Government without the Fibs, who look like big losers to the Greens from where I'm sitting.

One thing that has only occurred to me today is the effect of the local elections in England on the same day as the GE. I'm guessing quite a lot of folk will end up voting for two different parties. Say, Green for the council and Labour for Westminster, or UKIP for the council and Tory for Westminster?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 11:26 am

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Vivienne Westwood has just donated £300k to the Greens apparently. This must make their fielding a full slate at the coming GE a genuine possibility?
It is a way to look socially responsible, while helping out the Tory Party.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 11:50 am

Good morning.

Prince Charles and PM fly to Saudi amid growing row over UK flag tributes
The decision to lower flags at government buildings and Buckingham Palace has angered politicians across the spectrum

Labour MP Paul Flynn said the tribute was “liable to bring infantile fawning over royalty into disrepute”. (Guardian)

Wonderful quote there!

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... g-tributes

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 12:07 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Vivienne Westwood has just donated £300k to the Greens apparently. This must make their fielding a full slate at the coming GE a genuine possibility?
It is a way to look socially responsible, while helping out the Tory Party.
It will be interesting in the aftermath to see the effect of the "Green surge". I'm not sure it's 100% obvious that the Tories will benefit from it, given they haven't a hope of forming the next Government without the Fibs, who look like big losers to the Greens from where I'm sitting.

One thing that has only occurred to me today is the effect of the local elections in England on the same day as the GE. I'm guessing quite a lot of folk will end up voting for two different parties. Say, Green for the council and Labour for Westminster, or UKIP for the council and Tory for Westminster?

Or in Brighton Pavilion, probably Labour for the council and Green for Westminster

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:08 pm

...and now its the Greens turn for a bit of misleading press attention.

The Queen could be moved to a COUNCIL HOUSE if Green Party gains power

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/qu ... se-5034477" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:17 pm

Lot of articles in the papers today about Winston Churchill, it being the 50th anniversary of his death. Chris Bryant tweeted this last night

Chris Bryant @ChrisBryantMP
· 13h 13 hours ago
Midst all the understandable praise for Churchill’s wartime valiance, it’s worth recalling that he was never welcome in Tonypandy.

and, of course, he has made a very valid point. A deeply flawed man, it could be argued that he did far more harm than he did good during his political career; but, boy, the bit he did do good was awfully important. Simon Schama has also been tweeting on this too:

Simon Schama @simon_schama
· 29m 29 minutes ago
wonderful BBC archive including that dockers' salute; but the faces of the crowd say it all

And that is the point. However I may feel about him with my head (and I'm pretty much with Chris Bryant) emotionally, with my heart, it is something different; I was about 3 1/2 when he died and one of my earliest childhood memories is of watching the funeral on TV with my parents and grandparents - my grandfather was by then an invalid, crippled with the emphysema which eventually killed him, which was the only thing that stopped that ex-docker and wartime fireman from going to the River and watching events with his own eyes. I remember hearing the 19-gun salute and watching the RAF Lightning flypast (we were still living in Bermondsey then); and, most of all, I remember the raw emotion, the heartfelt grief on the faces of my family.

So, yes, I know this is man who sent troops into Tonypandy, who was responsible for Gallipoli, who was more than happy to sanction the use of gas against Iraqi insurgents and who is reviled in Ireland and India. But I will be remembering him respectfully over the next few days, if only to honour the memory of my late father and grandparents.

Rebecca · Post by **Rebecca** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:22 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Lot of articles in the papers today about Winston Churchill, it being the 50th anniversary of his death. Chris Bryant tweeted this last night

Chris Bryant @ChrisBryantMP
· 13h 13 hours ago
Midst all the understandable praise for Churchill’s wartime valiance, it’s worth recalling that he was never welcome in Tonypandy.
and, of course, he has made a very valid point. A deeply flawed man, it could be argued that he did far more harm than he did good during his political career; but, boy, the bit he did do good was awfully important. Simon Schama has also been tweeting on this too:

Simon Schama @simon_schama
· 29m 29 minutes ago
wonderful BBC archive including that dockers' salute; but the faces of the crowd say it all
And that is the point. However I may feel about him with my head (and I'm pretty much with Chris Bryant) emotionally, with my heart, it is something different; I was about 3 1/2 when he died and one of my earliest childhood memories is of watching the funeral on TV with my parents and grandparents - my grandfather was by then an invalid, crippled with the emphysema which eventually killed him, which was the only thing that stopped that ex-docker and wartime fireman from going to the River and watching events with his own eyes. I remember hearing the 19-gun salute and watching the RAF Lightning flypast (we were still living in Bermondsey then); and, most of all, I remember the raw emotion, the heartfelt grief on the faces of my family.

So, yes, I know this is man who sent troops into Tonypandy, who was responsible for Gallipoli, who was more than happy to sanction the use of gas against Iraqi insurgents and who is reviled in Ireland and India. But I will be remembering him respectfully over the next few days, if only to honour the memory of my late father and grandparents.

But,Grim,were you given a Winston Churchil funeral jigsaw puzzle?It was very difficult.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:24 pm

Bring back real Cadbury Creme eggs;replace party leaders with chickens and put the Queen in a Council House.

Writing the manifesto now.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:25 pm

Rebecca wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Lot of articles in the papers today about Winston Churchill, it being the 50th anniversary of his death. Chris Bryant tweeted this last night

Chris Bryant @ChrisBryantMP
· 13h 13 hours ago
Midst all the understandable praise for Churchill’s wartime valiance, it’s worth recalling that he was never welcome in Tonypandy.
and, of course, he has made a very valid point. A deeply flawed man, it could be argued that he did far more harm than he did good during his political career; but, boy, the bit he did do good was awfully important. Simon Schama has also been tweeting on this too:

Simon Schama @simon_schama
· 29m 29 minutes ago
wonderful BBC archive including that dockers' salute; but the faces of the crowd say it all
And that is the point. However I may feel about him with my head (and I'm pretty much with Chris Bryant) emotionally, with my heart, it is something different; I was about 3 1/2 when he died and one of my earliest childhood memories is of watching the funeral on TV with my parents and grandparents - my grandfather was by then an invalid, crippled with the emphysema which eventually killed him, which was the only thing that stopped that ex-docker and wartime fireman from going to the River and watching events with his own eyes. I remember hearing the 19-gun salute and watching the RAF Lightning flypast (we were still living in Bermondsey then); and, most of all, I remember the raw emotion, the heartfelt grief on the faces of my family.

So, yes, I know this is man who sent troops into Tonypandy, who was responsible for Gallipoli, who was more than happy to sanction the use of gas against Iraqi insurgents and who is reviled in Ireland and India. But I will be remembering him respectfully over the next few days, if only to honour the memory of my late father and grandparents.
But,Grim,were you given a Winston Churchil funeral jigsaw puzzle?It was very difficult.

I was always a reader, not a jigsaw puzzler, even at 3 1/2.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:25 pm

Above.

Churchill was a grade A1 Arse. He was also awful at military strategy.

However just briefly in 1940 he was right arse in the right job.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:32 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Above.

Churchill was a grade A1 Arse. He was also awful at military strategy.

However just briefly in 1940 he was right arse in the right job.

And my head doesn't disagree with a word of that, his list of failings would fill a very long book; and if he hadn't been that right arse in the right job at the right time he would be little more than a footnote in the history books, a classic example of a failed politician (much like his father). But that memory is also there with me and I know, to many, he became something more.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:35 pm

HindleA wrote:Morning.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/patr ... CMP=twt_gu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MPs' inquiry: Five things we've learned about benefit sanctions

1. It’s official: sanctions are bad for your health
2. If you are ill to start with, sanctions are really, really bad for your health
3. Sanctioning is a postcode lottery
4. Many sanctioned people “disappear” - but why?
5. Jobcentre staff feel under pressure to sanction claimants inappropriately

"As a [jobcentre] we are very closely monitored around around sanctions rates. Each week [there is]... a print out of the percentage of sanction decisions we are making. This is clearly a bullying tool in order to bring LMDMs [labour market decision-makers, or people who decide on whether to apply a sanction] into line with senior management’s requirement for 80% of referrals to be a sanction"

There are several answers to the question posed in 4 - viz:

If a person who is referred for a "lower-level" sanction, ie. a potential disallowance of benefit for 4 weeks for the first "failure" to 12 weeks for a second within 52 weeks, their payment will be "suspended" for the time it takes for the first decision to be made and any Mandatory Reconsideration procedures; if the sanction is imposed, the time on suspension will count towards it; if it isn't, the claimant gets benefit restored and backdated.
It may be worth continuing to sign on in those circumstances, even without payment; making a new claim involves a lot of aggravation, especially if there are other passported benefits; plus the new rules stipulate that at least the first 7 days will not be paid.

If a person is referred for an "intermediate-level" sanction, ie. anything from 4 to 12 weeks for any "failure" outstanding from an earlier claim (or attached to another person with whom a claimant now has a joint claim), the decision maker can "suspend" payment for 12 weeks if they think the claimant needs a period of time to demonstrate in a new or joint claim that they are a) serious about looking for work, and b) fully compliant with whatever it was they failed on last time.
It may be worth continuing to sign on in these circumstances too, for the same reasons as before.

BUT -
Once a "first failure" sanction/disallowance has been imposed, the claimant is at more risk of a "second failure". If their benefit has been disallowed, they are less likely to be able to comply with jobsearch requirements. A "second failure" within 52 weeks of the first will result in that sanction being applied to any new claim if the claimant signs off.
If the claimant has two adverse decisions already, they will get a "Higher-level" sanction if they have a third "failure" within 52 weeks.
In that situation, the claimant would have to sign on for some time and receive no benefits for the term of the existing sanctions, plus be at risk of a "Higher-level" if they fail once more - and that could mean no benefit for 3 years.
People who continue to sign on but get no benefit are also eligible for the Work Programme, Mandatory Work Activity, and all the daft schemes and whatnot that anyone on JSA for 6 months (and WRAG ESA claimants) are expected to comply with - and failure to do so will result in a sanction if they don't.
The "Higher-level" sanction, usually of 26 weeks, applies to people who are judged to have left their jobs voluntarily or lost their jobs through "misconduct" - and although that has applied since Major's time, the difference now is that if a claimant signs on for no JSA (some do, to get access to programmes and/or other benefits) they are still subject to sanctions and in their situation another "Higher-level" sanction within 52 weeks puts them on a 156-week disallowance.

People who are sanctioned for spurious reasons, people who get the same shit week in week out, are just going to give up.
What is the point of signing on and doing all the stupid things required, like doing workfare, if one little slip or an adviser needing to hit a target means a second or third sanction which will kick you off benefit for 3 years?

There was a case recently in Scotland in which a claimant who has found temporary work was signing off for a while; he was judged to have failed to do what he was supposed to have done and his last few weeks' benefit was sanctioned. 5 "failures" were cited, 5 jobs which the claimant was judged not to have applied for, and 5 sanction referrals were made.
When this chap finishes his temporary job, there is no point him signing on again because there remain 5 outstanding sanction referrals which may apply to any new claim he makes. The decision maker is not allowed to impose 5 sanctions at once; but out of 5 referrals, one of them will probably stick. So this guy would have to wait the standard 7 days before he can register a claim at all, then probably at least 4 weeks of signing on for zero benefit (probably longer if the figures are any indication) then one "failure" and he's out.

We know that since 2011, 1.9 Million people have been sanctioned. Last year alone, more than a million sanction referrals were made, and nearly 500,000 disallowances were imposed on about 350,000 people - so some had more than one disallowance.
Of the 1.9M, only 400,000 went into employment - so 1.6M people were without work or benefits for varying periods, and some of those will be on the intermediate or higher levels and thus under threat of or completely out of benefit for 3 years.

DWP doesn't know or care what happens to all those people. If they were claiming benefits, they are not people who are not working through choice. Whilst there are people who are "economically inactive" because they choose to be, there is no evidence to suggest that this group of people have found work. People who move to other benefits are not included in the figures because DWP knows where they are and they counted in other cohorts.

Sanctioned people disappear because there is nowhere for them to go. If they don't find work or claim another benefit, they're lost to the system. I suspect that they feel it is pointless to engage with it.
I am also convinced that this is deliberate - the new sanctions regime is set up in a way that guarantees an increasing number of people will be locked out of JSA completely for years at a time. The longer you sign on, the greater the risk of this happening.
Recent figures show that someone claiming JSA for 6 months is likely to be sanctioned at least once; longer than a year on JSA and they will be sanctioned at least twice - that means that those who sign on for more than a year are more likely than not to be given a "Higher-level" sanction at some point.
Work Programme providers can refer a case directly to a decision maker now. A claimant on the WP is 5 times more likely to get a sanction than they are to find a job; those who stay for the full 2 years (so far, that's more than 800,000 people) and don't find work go on to the new Help To Work scheme which has draconian conditions, so they are even more likely to get a third and thus 3-year sanction.

This is what the sanctions system is for. If people won't get off benefits, job or not, they'll be taken off.
The JSA claimant count is dropping - and this is the main reason why.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:36 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
Rebecca wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Lot of articles in the papers today about Winston Churchill, it being the 50th anniversary of his death. Chris Bryant tweeted this last night
and, of course, he has made a very valid point. A deeply flawed man, it could be argued that he did far more harm than he did good during his political career; but, boy, the bit he did do good was awfully important. Simon Schama has also been tweeting on this too:
And that is the point. However I may feel about him with my head (and I'm pretty much with Chris Bryant) emotionally, with my heart, it is something different; I was about 3 1/2 when he died and one of my earliest childhood memories is of watching the funeral on TV with my parents and grandparents - my grandfather was by then an invalid, crippled with the emphysema which eventually killed him, which was the only thing that stopped that ex-docker and wartime fireman from going to the River and watching events with his own eyes. I remember hearing the 19-gun salute and watching the RAF Lightning flypast (we were still living in Bermondsey then); and, most of all, I remember the raw emotion, the heartfelt grief on the faces of my family.

So, yes, I know this is man who sent troops into Tonypandy, who was responsible for Gallipoli, who was more than happy to sanction the use of gas against Iraqi insurgents and who is reviled in Ireland and India. But I will be remembering him respectfully over the next few days, if only to honour the memory of my late father and grandparents.
But,Grim,were you given a Winston Churchil funeral jigsaw puzzle?It was very difficult.
I was always a reader, not a jigsaw puzzler, even at 3 1/2.

Well, looks like we got ourselves a reader . . . .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:42 pm

Coalition fails to deliver on right-to-buy pledge to build affordable homes
Official figures show only one affordable home built for every five sold in social housing

Official figures make a mockery of the government’s pledge, launched to great fanfare in 2011, that it would replace every property sold under the scheme with a new one. (Guardian)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... buy-pledge

Toby Latimer · Post by **Toby Latimer** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:52 pm

Army Reform. With up to a third of the force’s 500 colonels and 200 brigadiers and generals possibly being axed, who will step up to the mantle in our hour of need ? Who is the brave, educated master strategist who will lead the defence of the realm in the theatre of war ?

Who will match Montgomery ? Do we have a MacArthur waiting in the wings ?

: ScreenShot00105.jpg (82.78 KiB) Viewed 10213 times

Don't panic, don't panic !

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 1:56 pm

I just read the John Harris piece, about how peoples voting intentions are seemingly all over the place.

I was particularly struck the woman who said she has always been interested in social justice, hence her vote for the Lib Dems, but in May intends to vote UKIP, how does that work then?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:04 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Lot of articles in the papers today about Winston Churchill, it being the 50th anniversary of his death. Chris Bryant tweeted this last night

Chris Bryant @ChrisBryantMP
· 13h 13 hours ago
Midst all the understandable praise for Churchill’s wartime valiance, it’s worth recalling that he was never welcome in Tonypandy.
and, of course, he has made a very valid point. A deeply flawed man, it could be argued that he did far more harm than he did good during his political career; but, boy, the bit he did do good was awfully important. Simon Schama has also been tweeting on this too:

Simon Schama @simon_schama
· 29m 29 minutes ago
wonderful BBC archive including that dockers' salute; but the faces of the crowd say it all
And that is the point. However I may feel about him with my head (and I'm pretty much with Chris Bryant) emotionally, with my heart, it is something different; I was about 3 1/2 when he died and one of my earliest childhood memories is of watching the funeral on TV with my parents and grandparents - my grandfather was by then an invalid, crippled with the emphysema which eventually killed him, which was the only thing that stopped that ex-docker and wartime fireman from going to the River and watching events with his own eyes. I remember hearing the 19-gun salute and watching the RAF Lightning flypast (we were still living in Bermondsey then); and, most of all, I remember the raw emotion, the heartfelt grief on the faces of my family.

So, yes, I know this is man who sent troops into Tonypandy, who was responsible for Gallipoli, who was more than happy to sanction the use of gas against Iraqi insurgents and who is reviled in Ireland and India. But I will be remembering him respectfully over the next few days, if only to honour the memory of my late father and grandparents.

I think the troops and people like your father and grandparents got it right. A great man when the country needed him. We owe him so much, but at the same time the public gave he and the Conservatives a resounding no when the war ended.

They weren't prepared to go on with the Status quo. So much was promised to the troops who fought in WW1, and they were shat on from a great height, so, their sons and daughters made damn sure it wouldn't happen the next time around.

My dad always used to say the people at home thought more of Churchill than the troops who were fighting abroad and it was they that gave Labour such a huge majority.
Mum used to say he had such a way with words you couldn't help but be uplifted.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:09 pm

It's just occurred to me - what with the Churchill stuff and all - it will be the first anniversary of Margaret Thatcher's death in April. I wonder if they'll try to milk that to the last drop or is there a royal birth in the offing?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:13 pm

letsskiptotheleft wrote:I just read the John Harris piece, about how peoples voting intentions are seemingly all over the place.

I was particularly struck the woman who said she has always been interested in social justice, hence her vote for the Lib Dems, but in May intends to vote UKIP, how does that work then?

You can always find fuckwits in all walks of life.

Harris is just indulging in his bash Labour and look like he has some insight vanity; I find him tiresome in the extreme.

Most people have no clue or interest in politics. Harris probably interviewed loads of boring switched on people, but selected the muppets because they were more interesting to write about.

He doesn't even seem to have spotted the obvious Tory troll.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:16 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morning.

Prince Charles and PM fly to Saudi amid growing row over UK flag tributes
The decision to lower flags at government buildings and Buckingham Palace has angered politicians across the spectrum

Labour MP Paul Flynn said the tribute was “liable to bring infantile fawning over royalty into disrepute”. (Guardian)
Wonderful quote there!

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015 ... g-tributes

Do you detect the heavy hand of Dave? He's using our flag when he thinks it'll bring him brownie points. And he was probably told to. Even without oil and guns, the Arabs own a big chunk of London.

He doesn't have a very good or balanced sense of occasion. Look at Thatchers funeral - completely over the top.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:20 pm

Just listening to Any Answers as I munch my lunch. Woman from Totnes Devon rang in to say she voted for Sarah Wollaston last time around and that she has been a very good MP ... but won't be voting Conservative again, despite Wollaston's good record, because she is so angry with David Cameron over the NHS. She sees his ducking from the debates as a way of avoiding talking about the biggest issue - the NHS - and that he has managed to dilute any debate of that through the 7 way format. She said Cameron had said to trust him with the NHS and he had failed on that miserably.

This chimes with our surprise conversation of this morning - out door stepping in Crymych - which was a couple who had been 'lifelong Tory voters' but said no more because they had just gone too far. They are going to vote Labour this time.

Editing to put the n in munch.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:27 pm

PorFavor wrote:It's just occurred to me - what with the Churchill stuff and all - it will be the first anniversary of Margaret Thatcher's death in April. I wonder if they'll try to milk that to the last drop or is there a royal birth in the offing?

There is another ankle snapper due around April I believe.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:31 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:Above.

Churchill was a grade A1 Arse. He was also awful at military strategy.

However just briefly in 1940 he was right arse in the right job.

And in that sense, he was lucky - as "great men" quite often are.

A remarkable man in *some* respects, though - to fall victim to Alzheimers (as he very likely did, though it has never been officially admitted) was especially cruel.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:31 pm

Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick · 5h 5 hours ago
Cameron & Charles (future Supreme Gov of C of E) should be careful when visiting Saudi. If they take a bible with them they risk execution

Hope Gove hasn't given them a few complimentary copies of his signed bibles to take over as gifts then.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:37 pm

RobertSnozers wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Above.

Churchill was a grade A1 Arse. He was also awful at military strategy.

However just briefly in 1940 he was right arse in the right job.
And my head doesn't disagree with a word of that, his list of failings would fill a very long book; and if he hadn't been that right arse in the right job at the right time he would be little more than a footnote in the history books, a classic example of a failed politician (much like his father). But that memory is also there with me and I know, to many, he became something more.
I was having an interesting discussion with Gary Sheffield among others on Twitter this morning. For me, the Churchill of contradictions is far more interesting that the infallible hero or indeed the Grade A1 arse. He could be a cruel bully, and his attempts at meddling in military affairs could be almost laughably amateurish. He also had some pretty loathsome attitudes. On the other hand, he could be immensely charming, persuasive, inspirational, and I struggle to think of anyone who could have done what he did in 1940 in the way that he did, ultimately leading to the victory of the free world over fascism.

One point that was raised in that discussion was that with Brooke guiding him militarily, and Attlee on the home front, his worst excesses were kept in check and Britain got the Churchill it needed during thise few years.

He was always looking for ways to make money...Always living above his means.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:39 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Above.

Churchill was a grade A1 Arse. He was also awful at military strategy.

However just briefly in 1940 he was right arse in the right job.
And in that sense, he was lucky - as "great men" quite often are.

A remarkable man in *some* respects, though - to fall victim to Alzheimers (as he very likely did, though it has never been officially admitted) was especially cruel.

I think he was one for the ladies too, or had a fancy woman tucked away, but that was another thing that was kept under wraps.
We would know every part of his life if he was still alive today. Not sure he'd have approved.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:45 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:I just read the John Harris piece, about how peoples voting intentions are seemingly all over the place.

I was particularly struck the woman who said she has always been interested in social justice, hence her vote for the Lib Dems, but in May intends to vote UKIP, how does that work then?
You can always find fuckwits in all walks of life.

Harris is just indulging in his bash Labour and look like he has some insight vanity; I find him tiresome in the extreme.

Most people have no clue or interest in politics. Harris probably interviewed loads of boring switched on people, but selected the muppets because they were more interesting to write about.

He doesn't even seem to have spotted the obvious Tory troll.

Harris is fast becoming a joke, he probably already is but I have missed the joke.

During the Scottish referendum the SNP and the Scottish people would show us all how do to redo progressiveness, the Welsh Nationalists were running amok in the valleys where Labour have ruled for generations, err, not round these parts they ain't, and now, of course the Green revolution, which could come to pass, but Harris's record to be polite isn't the best.

Obvious concern troll is too obvious.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:45 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:I just read the John Harris piece, about how peoples voting intentions are seemingly all over the place.

I was particularly struck the woman who said she has always been interested in social justice, hence her vote for the Lib Dems, but in May intends to vote UKIP, how does that work then?
You can always find fuckwits in all walks of life.

Harris is just indulging in his bash Labour and look like he has some insight vanity; I find him tiresome in the extreme.

Most people have no clue or interest in politics. Harris probably interviewed loads of boring switched on people, but selected the muppets because they were more interesting to write about.

He doesn't even seem to have spotted the obvious Tory troll.

Harris has always been a bit of an enigma. He can write well and was pretty much the only Guardian journo speaking out against the Health & Social Care Bill (although Zoe & Polly joined in at the 11th hour), but he doesn't half come out with some drivel; not read that one, but then I don't need to as it will be the same as all his other Labour bashing pieces. I'm not sure whether he considers himself one of the True Socialist Faithful, I just consider him a dick.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 2:59 pm

Kevan Jones MP ‏@KevanJonesMP 5m5 minutes ago
Interesting paid ad for Durham Free School in today's Northern Echo, even though closing. Is more scarce taxpayers cash being wasted?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 3:15 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Kevan Jones MP ‏@KevanJonesMP 5m5 minutes ago
Interesting paid ad for Durham Free School in today's Northern Echo, even though closing. Is more scarce taxpayers cash being wasted?

There was an article about the proposed closure in the Guardian. Interesting that Pat Glass raised concerns about it - she is a very impressive performer on the select committee - always sits next to Graham Stuart and you can tell he respects her background knowledge in education.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... ers-ofsted

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 4:09 pm

Good-afternoon, friends.
Anyone else watch, Wolf Hall, based on Hillary Mantel's book?
CitizenPMJR & I watched the first part last night.
The actor portraying Henry VIII may have been a poor choice.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 4:17 pm

Grant Shapps Poster Fail - Again
http://zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk/2015/ ... again.html

It's funny and reminds us yet again how useless Shapps is at so many things ... including managing any kind of credible face saving exercise.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 4:20 pm

citizenJA wrote:Good-afternoon, friends.
Anyone else watch, Wolf Hall, based on Hillary Mantel's book?
CitizenPMJR & I watched the first part last night.
The actor portraying Henry VIII may have been a poor choice.

No - I intended to watch it later and you've just reminded me - so thanks. I haven't read the book\s and I would prefer to have done that first but I don't think that's going to happen.

Anyway - what did you think of it? I read the Guardian review, though, which was hilariously full of historical inaccuracy in true Guardian style. An entertainment in itself.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 4:21 pm

John Harris strikes me as somebody who has invested too much in the anti-Labour meme (going back to his silly book before the 2005 GE) to back off it now.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 4:22 pm

: Martin Rowson In Laugharne.jpg (39.64 KiB) Viewed 10035 times

Laugharne Weekend ‏@laugharne2015 4h4 hours ago
This is what happens when Martin Rowson is let loose with a paintbrush in Laugharne pic.twitter.com/tWsbhRofcP

Isn't that just great?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 4:40 pm

I can't find much coverage of the Greek election. The BBC alludes to it but I can't see much anywhere else.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 4:42 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Coalition fails to deliver on right-to-buy pledge to build affordable homes
Official figures show only one affordable home built for every five sold in social housing

Official figures make a mockery of the government’s pledge, launched to great fanfare in 2011, that it would replace every property sold under the scheme with a new one. (Guardian)
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... buy-pledge

Like they ever intended to do it... this last five years have been one long period of asset stripping from the State.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 4:44 pm

PorFavor wrote:I can't find much coverage of the Greek election. The BBC alludes to it but I can't see much anywhere else.

Channel4 News have a lot of stuff: http://www.channel4.com/news/greece" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It might also be worth keeping an eye on Paul Mason, on twitter: https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 24 Jan, 2015 4:45 pm

@refitman

Thank you.