Thursday 12th February 2015

giselle97 · Post by **giselle97** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 9:45 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Hello GetYou... Good to see you.

And the good news keeps on coming.

Dave Williams ‏@realdavedoubleu 17 mins17 minutes ago
#nigelfarage now saying #ukip breakthrough in 2020 - no earthquake this year - making excuses early to save his job?

I don't think he wants to be an MP, to be frank. He's probably realised he can't make as much dosh at it as he thought.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 9:45 pm

GetYou wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:And UKIP have deselected another candidate for him ....
The other candidate's backstory must be a corker!

Welcome from me as well

Forget the teeth curling Jaffa cakes - I have crackers, cheese and..........MARMITE yay!

:lol!:

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 9:46 pm

And more on the latest UKIP candidate ...

UKIP to parachute controversial 'pop preacher' into Coventry for general election
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/c ... er-8632711

Some good comments BTL from the people of Coventry

Wayne • 5 hours ago
"In 2004 he founded East London Christian Choir independent school, in Hackney, which taught pupils creationism was fact rather than evolution."

Unbelievable that in this day and age this is still allowed to be taught in a "school" UKIP has a lot of momentum in all parts of the country, I am glad they decided to put someone like him in Coventry because no one will vote for him

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 9:48 pm

Temporary Assistant to the Chief Whip & Policy Officer
National Assembly for Wales Labour Party
Cardiff
Salary:
£23,049 - £32,532 (National Assembly for Wales pay band 1). Recruitment normally takes place at the bottom of this scale

Anyone?
http://www.w4mpjobs.org/JobDetails.aspx?jobid=49532" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 9:48 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:And more on the latest UKIP candidate ...

UKIP to parachute controversial 'pop preacher' into Coventry for general election
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/c ... er-8632711
Some good comments BTL from the people of Coventry
Wayne • 5 hours ago
"In 2004 he founded East London Christian Choir independent school, in Hackney, which taught pupils creationism was fact rather than evolution."

Unbelievable that in this day and age this is still allowed to be taught in a "school" UKIP has a lot of momentum in all parts of the country, I am glad they decided to put someone like him in Coventry because no one will vote for him

Another black guy for them.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 9:51 pm

GetYou wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:And UKIP have deselected another candidate for him ....
The other candidate's backstory must be a corker!

He sounds positively benign and full of dignity in comparison ... his comments on this, which are quoted in both news items, are very very restrained in the circumstance. And he was properly selected by the local party members. I cannot see an obvious reason - other than money - why UKIP would prefer the pop preacher over the local man. But maybe there are things that only UKIP know ... it is after all 'a state of mind' according to Farage today.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 9:54 pm

I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 9:55 pm

David Cameron has tens of thousands of Twitter followers who DON'T EXIST
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/david-came ... er-5154280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 9:56 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:And more on the latest UKIP candidate ...

UKIP to parachute controversial 'pop preacher' into Coventry for general election
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/c ... er-8632711
Some good comments BTL from the people of Coventry
Wayne • 5 hours ago
"In 2004 he founded East London Christian Choir independent school, in Hackney, which taught pupils creationism was fact rather than evolution."

Unbelievable that in this day and age this is still allowed to be taught in a "school" UKIP has a lot of momentum in all parts of the country, I am glad they decided to put someone like him in Coventry because no one will vote for him
Another black guy for them.

Ye gads Tubby - if you are right with that, it really does tell you everything about the UKIP state of mind - utter crassness. Any black man will do, eh - regardless of views, character, likelihood of winning, potential for embarrassment, lack of connection to an area and community ...

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 9:58 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....

Do you even think she's the proper leader?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:00 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....

You can of course take any view you wish (although doing so may devalue the room).

However my objection to Surgeon is simply she is only interested in making Scotland independent. She will accept any price to achieve that, and she doesn't give a toss what it means for the people of Scotland.

The fact she has said nothing about oil, and what that would have meant for iScotland is unacceptable.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:00 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....

But she has nothing to say - nothing at all - about UK wide policies, she just wants an independent Scotland and will go to any lengths to get it. An opportunist.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:04 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....
But she has nothing to say - nothing at all - about UK wide policies, she just wants an independent Scotland and will go to any lengths to get it. An opportunist.

Well apart from being openly anti-austerity and saying quite clearly that the best way to reduce the deficit is to increase public spending.

Which is both economically and morally correct in my view.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:05 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....
But she has nothing to say - nothing at all - about UK wide policies, she just wants an independent Scotland and will go to any lengths to get it. An opportunist.

Actually I don't think she is an opportunist. I think she is a religious zealot (where her religion is nationalism). She will take any position to achieve independence because she -believes- that it is the right thing for Scotland.

I would describe her as " The Scottish Iain Duncan Smith"

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:05 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....

No apology required - and I'm not sure it is such a different view. I'm not necessarily agin Sturgeon ... I'm trying to be pragmatic in seeing the politics and the strategy and giving her some respect for how she is playing the hands. The end aim for her though is to further the desire for independence in Scotland ... I don't think she's going to want to be too pally with Labour because it won't help that end. So the rhetoric will continue even if they support Labour on some issues ... she'll also have learnt from Clegg and the Lib Dems how not to look supine and as if it isn't a real tussle to ensure your principles aren't ridden roughshod over by the evil bit of the partnership.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:05 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:And more on the latest UKIP candidate ...
Some good comments BTL from the people of Coventry
Another black guy for them.
Ye gads Tubby - if you are right with that, it really does tell you everything about the UKIP state of mind - utter crassness. Any black man will do, eh - regardless of views, character, likelihood of winning, potential for embarrassment, lack of connection to an area and community ...

Parties who hate "political correctness" are the most politically correct when it comes to non-white loons.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:07 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....
But she has nothing to say - nothing at all - about UK wide policies, she just wants an independent Scotland and will go to any lengths to get it. An opportunist.
Actually I don't think she is an opportunist. I think she is a religious zealot (where her religion is nationalism). She will take any position to achieve independence because she -believes- that it is the right thing for Scotland.

I would describe her as " The Scottish Iain Duncan Smith"

Ouch.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:09 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....

I don't have any axe to grind with Sturgeon particularly; I don't entirely trust her, but I think that is more because of the rabid mob of her supporters who descend on anybody who dares to suggest she might just be telling the odd porkie, like all politicians.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:09 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: Another black guy for them.
Ye gads Tubby - if you are right with that, it really does tell you everything about the UKIP state of mind - utter crassness. Any black man will do, eh - regardless of views, character, likelihood of winning, potential for embarrassment, lack of connection to an area and community ...

Parties who hate "political correctness" are the most politically correct when it comes to non-white loons.

Love the last line...

And during the 2010 general election he stood in Barking but took just one per cent of the vote.

What on earth are they thinking?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:10 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....
But she has nothing to say - nothing at all - about UK wide policies, she just wants an independent Scotland and will go to any lengths to get it. An opportunist.
Well apart from being openly anti-austerity and saying quite clearly that the best way to reduce the deficit is to increase public spending.

Which is both economically and morally correct in my view.

Except she doesn't mean any of it. She is simply saying it to garner votes, much like Clegg and his student pledge.

- If the SNP had won the referendum, she would right now be embarking on the biggest austerity program the UK has ever seen. She would be slashing Scottish spending on welfare and health, probably slicing chunks off pensions. She would have no choice because the vote and oil crash means she has a huge deficit, no sovereign currency and no credit facility.

Nobody who cared about people's welfare, or believed austerity was bad would have put their people in that situation. But Sturgeon and Salmond did, because they only actually care about independence.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:11 pm

Does anyone seriously think there'd be no deal with the Tories if they offered the SNP a chance of another referendum?

Blah, blah, historic opportunity, blah.

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:14 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:David Cameron has tens of thousands of Twitter followers who DON'T EXIST
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/david-came ... er-5154280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From that article:

But social media experts slammed the fake followers for artificially boosting an MP’s profile in the run-up to the election, where Twitter and Facebook will play major roles in campaigning.

Whilst I'm all for social media encouraging people to get involved in politics, I can only imagine the deluge of shash that will consist of.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:15 pm

Haha, hadn't seen this.

Miliband repeated the Fink allegation at his old comprehensive school.

Fink's not sueing.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:18 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote: Love the last line...

And during the 2010 general election he stood in Barking but took just one per cent of the vote.

What on earth are they thinking?

"Nobody can call us racist now!"

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:18 pm

Hang on though. Remember Salmond (who I don't like btw but have some grudging admiration for) wanted Devo Max not independence. It was sodding Cameron who forced the either / or question on Scotland.

Do you really think Salmond and Sturgeon want full independence?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:19 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Hang on though. Remember Salmond (who I don't like btw but have some grudging admiration for) wanted Devo Max not independence. It was sodding Cameron who forced the either / or question on Scotland.

Do you really think Salmond and Sturgeon want full independence?

They're not exactly letting the NO vote lie, are they?

If Salmond didn't want it, he's spent 30 odd years talking rhubarb.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:20 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Does anyone seriously think there'd be no deal with the Tories if they offered the SNP a chance of another referendum?

Blah, blah, historic opportunity, blah.

They'd be silly to.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:20 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote: If Salmond didn't want it, he's spent 30 odd years talking rhubarb.

Yes.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:21 pm

Nick Sutton ‏@suttonnick 38m38 minutes ago
Friday's FT front page:
Central banks take extreme action to stave off deflation

Worrying stuff. Has Mark Carney been right about anything yet? Serious question. His targets re interest rates and inflation seem to have bounced around more than the badgers' goalposts.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:22 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Hang on though. Remember Salmond (who I don't like btw but have some grudging admiration for) wanted Devo Max not independence. It was sodding Cameron who forced the either / or question on Scotland.

Do you really think Salmond and Sturgeon want full independence?
They're not exactly letting the NO vote lie, are they?

If Salmond didn't want it, he's spent 30 odd years talking rhubarb.

Tubby they want more power for Scotland but not independence. It was called Devo Max. It's a reasonable goal and they don't have it yet.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:22 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote: But she has nothing to say - nothing at all - about UK wide policies, she just wants an independent Scotland and will go to any lengths to get it. An opportunist.
Well apart from being openly anti-austerity and saying quite clearly that the best way to reduce the deficit is to increase public spending.

Which is both economically and morally correct in my view.
Except she doesn't mean any of it. She is simply saying it to garner votes, much like Clegg and his student pledge.

- If the SNP had won the referendum, she would right now be embarking on the biggest austerity program the UK has ever seen. She would be slashing Scottish spending on welfare and health, probably slicing chunks off pensions. She would have no choice because the vote and oil crash means she has a huge deficit, no sovereign currency and no credit facility.

Nobody who cared about people's welfare, or believed austerity was bad would have put their people in that situation. But Sturgeon and Salmond did, because they only actually care about independence.

It could have been interesting, I suppose. Always thought the UK would be able to force things like conditions over the currency union on them. But maybe they'd enjoy wasting time while oil company profits improved.

giselle97 · Post by **giselle97** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:25 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....

No need to apologise at all Paul, for taking a different view. For me it's about the ultimate aim of the SNP. As a Scot, I want to be in the United Kingdom. The SNP has another plan. I can't go for that. It's scarey.

P.S. I was really sad to see that the DVLA when re-issuing my driving licence said I was born in the United Kingdom. My old one said I was born (proudly) in Scotland.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:26 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Hang on though. Remember Salmond (who I don't like btw but have some grudging admiration for) wanted Devo Max not independence. It was sodding Cameron who forced the either / or question on Scotland.

Do you really think Salmond and Sturgeon want full independence?
They're not exactly letting the NO vote lie, are they?

If Salmond didn't want it, he's spent 30 odd years talking rhubarb.
Tubby they want more power for Scotland but not independence. It was called Devo Max. It's a reasonable goal and they don't have it yet.

I think that was the position when they bartered for the referendum. But the impetus and momentum of the YES campaign has moved it beyond that now surely ... even if Sturgeon and Salmond still only want Devo Max (and I'm not sure about that) - they've got a mass of people and their own party membership wanting the full caboodle.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:28 pm

rebeccariots2 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....
No apology required - and I'm not sure it is such a different view. I'm not necessarily agin Sturgeon ... I'm trying to be pragmatic in seeing the politics and the strategy and giving her some respect for how she is playing the hands. The end aim for her though is to further the desire for independence in Scotland ... I don't think she's going to want to be too pally with Labour because it won't help that end. So the rhetoric will continue even if they support Labour on some issues ... she'll also have learnt from Clegg and the Lib Dems how not to look supine and as if it isn't a real tussle to ensure your principles aren't ridden roughshod over by the evil bit of the partnership.

Thanks for the measured response Rebecca. I do get a bit upset on this issue because to me it's important and interesting, but I find any attempt at nuanced debate gets shut down here.

Perhaps GS has the answer in that I don't spend time at the Groan, where there is obviously a good deal of trolling on the subject.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:30 pm

Latest YouGov poll (11 - 12 Feb):
LAB - 34% (+1)
CON - 31% (-1)
UKIP - 15% (-)
GRN - 7% (-)
LDEM - 7% (-)

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:31 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Hang on though. Remember Salmond (who I don't like btw but have some grudging admiration for) wanted Devo Max not independence. It was sodding Cameron who forced the either / or question on Scotland.

Do you really think Salmond and Sturgeon want full independence?
They're not exactly letting the NO vote lie, are they?

If Salmond didn't want it, he's spent 30 odd years talking rhubarb.
Tubby they want more power for Scotland but not independence. It was called Devo Max. It's a reasonable goal and they don't have it yet.

But the SNP has always supported independence, surely?

Settling for Devo Max was merely a recognition that nowhere near enough people have supported independence, until very recently. I'd be surprised if now they were uninterested in independence.

Sturgeon on taking over from Salmond.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... a-sturgeon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“In terms of when that might happen, that is entirely down to the wishes and the will of the Scottish people … One of the things that’s changed about Scotland is that the people are very firmly in charge.”

She said it was understandable and right that people were asking her about the circumstances for another referendum but she added: “I think it’s also a legitimate question to pose to Westminster parties because their conduct will have an influence here as well.

“And I would suggest to them if they want to stem rising demand for another referendum they should deliver those powers in full, they should think again about the austerity politics that are impoverishing so many of our children, they should think again about a new generation of Trident nuclear weapons on the Clyde. So their conduct I think will have a bearing on this as well as what I do and what the SNP does.”

That's not respecting the NO vote at all.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:32 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Hang on though. Remember Salmond (who I don't like btw but have some grudging admiration for) wanted Devo Max not independence. It was sodding Cameron who forced the either / or question on Scotland.

Do you really think Salmond and Sturgeon want full independence?

1. Why did they campaign for it.
2. Why are they now demanding a re-run?

Of course they want independence.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:32 pm

giselle97 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....
No need to apologise at all Paul, for taking a different view. For me it's about the ultimate aim of the SNP. As a Scot, I want to be in the United Kingdom. The SNP has another plan. I can't go for that. It's scarey.

P.S. I was really sad to see that the DVLA when re-issuing my driving licence said I was born in the United Kingdom. My old one said I was born (proudly) in Scotland.

I really, really want Scotland to stay in the UK too, which is why I want us all to listen to their elected First Minister.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:33 pm

Paul, sorry for being fierce. I'm the chief anti-SNPer.

It didn't occur to me I was shutting down anything, but I'll be more mindful in the light of what you've said.

I am probably reacting to the Cybernats at the other place, as you say.

pk1 · Post by **pk1** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:34 pm

If anybody should be taking legal action, it's Ed !

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:35 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Hang on though. Remember Salmond (who I don't like btw but have some grudging admiration for) wanted Devo Max not independence. It was sodding Cameron who forced the either / or question on Scotland.

Do you really think Salmond and Sturgeon want full independence?
1. Why did they campaign for it.
2. Why are they now demanding a re-run?

Of course they want independence.

Sorry TE I have the greatest respect for your posts but you're not making sense to me here. Cameron started this not the SNP. It's a matter of record. What else could they campaign for once Dave had denied them their preferred option?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:35 pm

HindleA wrote:Latest YouGov poll (11 - 12 Feb):
LAB - 34% (+1)
CON - 31% (-1)
UKIP - 15% (-)
GRN - 7% (-)
LDEM - 7% (-)

Oh dear, NickyB in the morning...

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:36 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Paul, sorry for being fierce. I'm the chief anti-SNPer.

It didn't occur to me I was shutting down anything, but I'll be more mindful in the light of what you've said.

I am probably reacting to the Cybernats at the other place, as you say.

Thanks for that

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:44 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Hang on though. Remember Salmond (who I don't like btw but have some grudging admiration for) wanted Devo Max not independence. It was sodding Cameron who forced the either / or question on Scotland.

Do you really think Salmond and Sturgeon want full independence?

What Salmond and Sturgeon want is power. They don't really care about how it is achieved, but independence would be their ultimate power grab.
Devo-max was never a realistic option for a Scotland-only referendum. (This is one, and possibly the only, correct decision by Cameron imo). It's perfectly acceptable for Scotland to vote on leaving the UK 'club' but it would not, I think, be acceptable to vote on changing the rules of the club unless all the members had a say.

The SNP gained their (slim) majority in Holyrood as a result of the defection of the LibDems to the Tories in Westminster the year before. Even then, they only polled 46% on a roughly 50% turnout. Since they have been in power they have frozen council tax, leaving LAs dependent on Holyrood; centralised control over the police (and fire service); tried (ongoing) to remove the requirement for corroborative evidence in court; overturned local planning decisions; taken over the committee system in Holyrood (and put in place their own presiding officer)... I could go on! Are these the actions of a socialist-leaning party or tartan Tories?

The constant carping about how Scotland should have more of everything fails to acknowledge that if they get their demands, other parts of the UK will be worse off.

giselle97 · Post by **giselle97** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:46 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
giselle97 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....
No need to apologise at all Paul, for taking a different view. For me it's about the ultimate aim of the SNP. As a Scot, I want to be in the United Kingdom. The SNP has another plan. I can't go for that. It's scarey.

P.S. I was really sad to see that the DVLA when re-issuing my driving licence said I was born in the United Kingdom. My old one said I was born (proudly) in Scotland.
I really, really want Scotland to stay in the UK too, which is why I want us all to listen to their elected First Minister.

Thanks for acknowledging what I said "As a Scot, I want to be in the United Kingdom. The SNP has another plan." I can appreciate your frustration Paul, really, and I honestly don't think it's fair to say that the debate here is being shut down. But I'm honestly of the opinion, and this has been discussed with my remaining Scottish relatives and my friends at great length, that there will be no "settling". She and Alex won't or can't settle for devo-max. It's Independence that's wanted - they won't settle. And yes, I am listening to her, as Scotland's elected First Minister, and I'm happy for her to stay in that post.

Eric_WLothian · Post by **Eric_WLothian** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:47 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
giselle97 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm clearly in a minority here, but I still think we should give more time to Sturgeon.

It's not like I'm a big fan, BUT we've discussed before the psychopathic tendencies of Tories - I don't think Sturgeon is a psychopath. She's a politician who has defined herself in an arena where Labour is the opposition. All my instincts are we should listen and see what she has to say about UK wide politics rather than rule her out as beyond the pale. We may be surprised.

Sorry for taking a different view....
No need to apologise at all Paul, for taking a different view. For me it's about the ultimate aim of the SNP. As a Scot, I want to be in the United Kingdom. The SNP has another plan. I can't go for that. It's scarey.

P.S. I was really sad to see that the DVLA when re-issuing my driving licence said I was born in the United Kingdom. My old one said I was born (proudly) in Scotland.
I really, really want Scotland to stay in the UK too, which is why I want us all to listen to their elected First Minister.

But our First Minister was elected to run the devolved functions of the Scottish Parliament. That's all.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:50 pm

Wow, there's the Ed tax avoider again.

They tried this last time with that donation Labour got in shares. They lied about how advantageous that was, but there was a point.

But I doubt anyone thinks something your local solicitor will advise is like Fink and his offshore stuff.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:52 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Paul, sorry for being fierce. I'm the chief anti-SNPer.

It didn't occur to me I was shutting down anything, but I'll be more mindful in the light of what you've said.

I am probably reacting to the Cybernats at the other place, as you say.
Thanks for that

That's all right.

I get too obsessed with cybernatters. It'll do me good.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:57 pm

Jesus, some berk in the QT audience thinks that CT rates should be cut as that's why companies are avoiding paying it!

I remember when the CT rate was 52%! It's going to be 20% in April. They won't ever be satisfied until it's 0%.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Thu 12 Feb, 2015 10:58 pm

Eric_WLothian wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Hang on though. Remember Salmond (who I don't like btw but have some grudging admiration for) wanted Devo Max not independence. It was sodding Cameron who forced the either / or question on Scotland.

Do you really think Salmond and Sturgeon want full independence?
What Salmond and Sturgeon want is power. They don't really care about how it is achieved, but independence would be their ultimate power grab.
Devo-max was never a realistic option for a Scotland-only referendum. (This is one, and possibly the only, correct decision by Cameron imo). It's perfectly acceptable for Scotland to vote on leaving the UK 'club' but it would not, I think, be acceptable to vote on changing the rules of the club unless all the members had a say.

The SNP gained their (slim) majority in Holyrood as a result of the defection of the LibDems to the Tories in Westminster the year before. Even then, they only polled 46% on a roughly 50% turnout. Since they have been in power they have frozen council tax, leaving LAs dependent on Holyrood; centralised control over the police (and fire service); tried (ongoing) to remove the requirement for corroborative evidence in court; overturned local planning decisions; taken over the committee system in Holyrood (and put in place their own presiding officer)... I could go on! Are these the actions of a socialist-leaning party or tartan Tories?

The constant carping about how Scotland should have more of everything fails to acknowledge that if they get their demands, other parts of the UK will be worse off.

This is my view, expressed with less of my heat.

I'd add what actually happened with the police too. Manic stop and search.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... h-scotland" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Check this out for a defence of it.

MacAskill said: "It's not rocket science, it's not happen-chance that there's a clear correlation. It's about being proactive, about preventing crime happening in the first place [and] it's reasonable and proportionate. I don't accept that it's discriminatory. It's quite clear and self-evident that crime is disproportionately perpetrated by young people."

Yeah, you, you're young, you look like a criminal.