Thursday 5th.March 2015.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 7:20 am

14th.April 2010.
"I absolutely believe in these debates and think they are great"
David Cameron, Sky News.

15th.April 2010.
"I think it's great we're having these debates and I hope they go some way to restore some of the faith and some of the trust into our politics because we badly need that once again in this country".
David Cameron, ITV debate.

17th.April 2010.
"Look, I've been calling for these debates for five years, I challenged Blair, I challenged Brown, I challenged when I was ahead in the polls and when I was behind in the polls, I just think they are a good thing".
David Cameron, Telegraph.

21st.April 2010.
"I've always wanted these debates to happen. I mean they happen in every country. They even happen in Mongolia for heavens' sake and it's part of the modern age that we should be in".
David Cameron, BBC3,

2nd.May 2010.
"I think these debates are here to stay, they clearly engage people in politics which is what we need".
David Cameron, NOTW.

2015.
Cameron - Silence.
Ofcom/broadcasters announcements.
Cameron - No debate without Greens.
Greens included.
Cameron - No debate without nationalists.
Nationalists included.
Cameron - No debate without DUP.
Broadcasters disagree.
No Cons at negotiations.
Shapps - Claim of progress.
No debates in short campaign.
Broadcasters may change.
No Cons at negotiations.
Broadcasters arrange debates.
No Cons at discussions.
Cameron - No answer at PMQs.
"Final offer" from Craig Oliver in a nasty letter blaming broadcasters for causing chaos.

2010 - Cameron is everywhere, keen for debate, up for the challenge, etc.etc.
2015 - Cameron leaves flunkies to find excuses for him not to debate.

Whether one support these debates or not (I do) it is clear from all this that Cameron is afraid of facing the public.
He knows he cannot defend his record and he knows that the other leaders will eviscerate him on that record.

Comments on articles in the Telegraph, Independent, Guardian, and BBC are all contemptuous of Cameron's behaviour.
Social media are awash with criticism, petitions, cartoons, jokes, even song playlists, taking the piss out of him.

Does he seriously think that he will get away with this? Is he so confident of electoral victory that he can ignore this?
I can understand why his advisers want to keep him safely tucked away, but he doesn't have to take their advice.
I can understand why he wants to avoid a head-to-head with Milband; he knows he will lose the argument.

The sheer arrogance of his "final offer" will hopefully encourage the broadcasters to go ahead without him.
I really hope they do.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 7:28 am

Morning all, as Dan would say if I hadn't just deleted his thread. Soz Dan, but this one looked lovelier. And good morning Ephie - early start for you?

frightful_oik · Post by **frightful_oik** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 7:53 am

I hope the Mirror are still employing that chicken. What a craven wimp we have for a prime minister.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 7:54 am

Morning.

Scotsman ‏@TheScotsman 8h8 hours ago
Today's Scotsman front page: Scottish Labour MPs demand no SNP pact http://bit.ly/1B8awYl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After the Scottish govt votes re ID numbers and welfare vouchers yesterday - can't say I blame them.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 7:56 am

norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 1h1 hour ago
Labour say Ed Miliband will still take part in Ch4//Sky head to head debate without the PM

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 7:58 am

Chris Bryant retweeted
The Economist ‏@EconBizFin 6h6 hours ago
Unemployment, “zero-hour” contracts and debt may have driven up suicide rates in Britain http://econ.st/1EkUXys" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:07 am

ErnstRemarx wrote:Morning all, as Dan would say if I hadn't just deleted his thread. Soz Dan, but this one looked lovelier. And good morning Ephie - early start for you?

Mornin' Ernst.

Insomnia. It's a bugger. A relentless bugger.

Unlike Our Glorious Ronsealed Fishpointer General. Whose relentlessness is only apparent in the holiday-taking scenario.

I am vastly amused this morning at the missive from Craig Oliver, who in true Cameronian bully-boy style, has informed the broadcasters that any issues with the debates are all their fault and nothing, no nothing, to do with OGRFG's cowardice.

Now then, you wise and clever people - is this evasion or avoidance?

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:07 am

frightful_oik wrote:I hope the Mirror are still employing that chicken. What a craven wimp we have for a prime minister.

I really don't think he could make it much clearer that he's scared of getting a good stuffing at Miliband's hands. Only one debate, and not head to head? He's a weasel.

I mean, if Ed's a weird geek, then surely he'll wipe the floor with him?

Apparently not. Make your own judgement - I'm sure a lot of other people are doing just that.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:17 am

Paddy Ashdown tells Today that if Cameron is hoping the Lib Dems will refuse to take part - he's going to be disappointed, they intend to be there. If the broadcasters have to empty chair Cameron so be it ... the farce might ensure this doesn't happen again. Or if Cameron won't defend his government (he points out Cameron wants to have a debate before the Conservatives have published their manifesto ...) Nick Clegg will stand up and defend the record instead.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:17 am

1. So, when Cameron is now empty chaired (as he will be) will Miliband debate with the other party leaders?

I don't think he will. He won't want to be put on the same level as Farage, for the same reason Cameron doesn't want to be put on the same footing as Miliband.

So, my guess is that (if anything) we'll get the bizarre spectacle of Farage, Clegg and Bennett arguing with one another.

2. On polls, I may be wrong, but doesn't the Ashcroft national poll of 8,000 people yesterday show a respectable Labour lead? see the last item here

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2015/03/ca ... marginals/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scotland looks like it is lost, but Lab+SNP puts Miliband in office.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:25 am

Whilst it may look like everyone is attacking Chicken Little for running away from the TV debates there are a small number of people who are supporting him, such as this London/Dubai 'escort' agency.

Amelia Dubai Escorts ‏@dubai_escorts 2 mins2 minutes ago
#TvDebates will solve nothing and definitely will change nothing

No doubt they're afraid that Miliband will be 'anti-business'...

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:26 am

SpinningHugo wrote:1. So, when Cameron is now empty chaired (as he will be) will Miliband debate with the other party leaders?

I don't think he will. He won't want to be put on the same level as Farage, for the same reason Cameron doesn't want to be put on the same footing as Miliband.

So, my guess is that (if anything) we'll get the bizarre spectacle of Farage, Clegg and Bennett arguing with one another.

2. On polls, I may be wrong, but doesn't the Ashcroft national poll of 8,000 people yesterday show a respectable Labour lead? see the last item here

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2015/03/ca ... marginals/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scotland looks like it is lost, but Lab+SNP puts Miliband in office.

Miliband has said he will participate in the debates with whoever, whenever, wherever - I expect him to hold good to that and participate in the 7 way debate if that goes ahead.

The Ashcroft national poll had Labour with a 4% lead ... so not bad.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:27 am

ephemerid wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:Morning all, as Dan would say if I hadn't just deleted his thread. Soz Dan, but this one looked lovelier. And good morning Ephie - early start for you?
Mornin' Ernst.

Insomnia. It's a bugger. A relentless bugger.

Unlike Our Glorious Ronsealed Fishpointer General. Whose relentlessness is only apparent in the holiday-taking scenario.

I am vastly amused this morning at the missive from Craig Oliver, who in true Cameronian bully-boy style, has informed the broadcasters that any issues with the debates are all their fault and nothing, no nothing, to do with OGRFG's cowardice.

Now then, you wise and clever people - is this evasion or avoidance?

Sorry to hear it - I've periodically had it myself, and it's not pleasant. The whole debates thing is now descending into farce, and it's a farce that can only harm Cameron. People will, not unnaturally, look at the situation and conclude that OGRFG is a chicken shit excuse of a human being whose 'demands' and 'final offer' to the broadcasters simply make him look ridiculous.

As I said, if Miliband's an unelectable, weird looking, ~~Jewish~~, oops geek then surely the majestic statesman that is David Cameron will brush him asidein head to head debate. Stands to reason, innit?

Perhaps he's foreseen that his pet hamster won't be well that evening. Poor old the Dave.

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:29 am

Spacedone wrote:Whilst it may look like everyone is attacking Chicken Little for running away from the TV debates there are a small number of people who are supporting him, such as this London/Dubai 'escort' agency.

Amelia Dubai Escorts ‏@dubai_escorts 2 mins2 minutes ago
#TvDebates will solve nothing and definitely will change nothing
No doubt they're afraid that Miliband will be 'anti-business'...

And I've seen tweets by the Sun and Matt Chorley of the Mail that are very selective in how they report this latest - Cameron has thrown down a gauntlet according to the Sun. Chorley chose this from the Ashdown interview ... just about the only thing Ashdown said that wasn't criticism of Cameron.

Matt Chorley ‏@MattChorley 10m10 minutes ago
Paddy Ashdown: "I don't think the broadcasters have covered themselves in glory. It has been badly mishandled." #tvdebates

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:30 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:
Miliband has said he will participate in the debates with whoever, whenever, wherever - I expect him to hold good to that and participate in the 7 way debate if that goes ahead.

I don't think so. What the Labour spokesman just said was that Miliband would turn up for the Sky/Channel 4 head to head if Cameron is empty chaired: not the other debates. He doesn't want to appear alongside Farage and Clegg without Cameron there as well.

Post by **refitman** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:31 am

ErnstRemarx wrote:Morning all, as Dan would say if I hadn't just deleted his thread. Soz Dan, but this one looked lovelier. And good morning Ephie - early start for you?

I was wondering what happened to it. Was questioning my own sanity for a minute

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:31 am

Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 3m3 minutes ago
Scotsman: Douglas Alexander says Miliband 'wants to rule out a deal' with SNP but is 'waiting for the right moment' http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3709520" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

rebeccariots2 · Post by **rebeccariots2** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:32 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Miliband has said he will participate in the debates with whoever, whenever, wherever - I expect him to hold good to that and participate in the 7 way debate if that goes ahead.
I don't think so. What the Labour spokesman just said was that Miliband would turn up for the Sky/Channel 4 head to head if Cameron is empty chaired: not the other debates. He doesn't want to appear alongside Farage and Clegg without Cameron there as well.

That's not my understanding of his position. We'll have to wait and see ...

Post by **refitman** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:34 am

rebeccariots2 wrote:Paddy Ashdown tells Today that if Cameron is hoping the Lib Dems will refuse to take part - he's going to be disappointed, they intend to be there. If the broadcasters have to empty chair Cameron so be it ... the farce might ensure this doesn't happen again. Or if Cameron won't defend his government (he points out Cameron wants to have a debate before the Conservatives have published their manifesto ...) Nick Clegg will stand up and defend the record instead.

He called Cameron a coward as well ("is displaying cowardice").

They had a nice clip before Paddy, of Cameron telling Brown (in 2010) that we should have debates and that PMQs is watched by few and is no substitute for the way a debate will be viewed by the public. Compare to what he said in yesterdays PMQs

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:47 am

Blimey! Busy morning already reporting some idiotic troll called 'SpellingMistake' at the G.

These tories are so see-through, aren't they? I'm sure everyone here will agree.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 8:55 am

mikems wrote:Blimey! Busy morning already reporting some idiotic troll called 'SpellingMistake' at the G.

These tories are so see-through, aren't they? I'm sure everyone here will agree.

That's Spinning Hugo...desperately trying to spin this Cameron's way and failing miserably.

fedup59 · Post by **fedup59** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:00 am

Morning all

First I'd like to thank Eric_WLothian for this last night: "Single Police Force; State Guardians for under 18s; Armed police on the streets; Local Authority finances controlled by Holyrood - the result of a single party doing what it wants without a second, revising, chamber." I've spent months arguing with Mr fedup that he should put what SNP do with power into the mix when he decides who to vote for in the GE (his hatred for TBlair added to the crap the SNP spout about their left wing credentials have made it impossible to argue without both of us shouting). He read that one sentence and said: I'm not voting for them!

I do think though that Blair broke something of our democracy when he shrugged his shoulders to those of us saying 'not in our name' to Iraq.

I fear that Cameron's obvious cravenness about the debates and the arrogance of his response of a final offer will be allowed by the MSM to waft into the ether with all of the other obvious examples of his ineptitude and failure to be accountable for any of his decisions.

Anyway I may not live in Hope but I believe (IDS style) that the Coalition will be dust, Ministers will be held accountable under the law for what they have done and we will see justice soon. So therefore it must be true.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:12 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Miliband has said he will participate in the debates with whoever, whenever, wherever - I expect him to hold good to that and participate in the 7 way debate if that goes ahead.
I don't think so. What the Labour spokesman just said was that Miliband would turn up for the Sky/Channel 4 head to head if Cameron is empty chaired: not the other debates. He doesn't want to appear alongside Farage and Clegg without Cameron there as well.

You may not think so, Hugo, but Miliband has been very clear. Not his spokesman, he, Miliband, the man himself.

He will, as he has said all along, attend the debates in whatever format the broadcasters decide.

When Cameron decided to ignore Ofcom's (independent) assessment of which parties are "major" and insist the Greens took part, Miliband said he would go along with whatever is decided.
When Cameron got his way, then decided that the nationalists couldn't be excluded and the broadcasters acceded to his demands, Miliband said he would go along with whatever is decided.
When the broadcasters decided to have the two 7-way debates and one head-to-head between Cameron and Miliband, what did Miliband say? He said "Bring it on". Cameron? Silence.

Miliband has been up for this from day one - read my earlier post, and check out the whole lot if you don't believe me.

There are two men who could lead the next government. Neither of them are called Clegg or Farage. Miliband is not scared of either.
In fact, I don't think there's much he IS scared of. Murdoch, the energy cartel, Cameron's warmongering, PMQ crap - not scared of them. Not scared of taking on Dacre. Not scared to walk about anywhere without a phalanx of guards. Not scared of anything.

It seems to me that Ed Miliband wants the chance to debate Cameron on his record in government and whatever new lies are put forward in the Tories' manifesto. Mano a mano. He will also join in in any other debates the broadcasters decide upon. He said so.

Where you get this idea that he won't join in I have no idea. He's been very very clear from the start. Stop spinning, Hugo.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:16 am

Seems to me that Sky and BBC aren't going to be happy with ITV and C4 getting their debate whilst Cameron's vetoed theirs. If only they'd kept a three man debate with Cameron, Clegg and Miliband they could have empty chaired Cameron and still have had a decent* debate between a party of government and the main party of opposition. The whole fuss over these debates is a farce, isn't it? We've already had Ask the Leaders and Sky very sensibly decided on their own format, invited people and got on with it. When faced with being left out, Cameron just had to get on and do it. The broadcasters should have stuck to their original offer and just gone ahead with those willing to attend. It wouldn't have been perfect, but it would have avoided this hoopla and we'd have heard at least some debate from some people at least. I just can't see how a head to head can happen without one of the heads and that's the whole point of Cameron refusing it, isn't it? It scuppers the whole thing.

*When I say decent, I simply mean substantial, I have no idea if it would be of any quality!

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:16 am

refitman wrote:
ErnstRemarx wrote:Morning all, as Dan would say if I hadn't just deleted his thread. Soz Dan, but this one looked lovelier. And good morning Ephie - early start for you?
I was wondering what happened to it. Was questioning my own sanity for a minute

Dan you need to give Ernst some merge thread training

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:19 am

I read a good account of the debate debate somewhere. For Cameron it's a core vote strategy.

If he chickens, his core vote will still vote for him because they just do.

If he debates and is rubbish, which he will be, he may even put off some of his core voters.

It's the least worst option for him.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:20 am

He will, as he has said all along, attend the debates in whatever format the broadcasters decide.

An interesting claim. We will of course see who is right, possibly by the end of today.

It would be foolish for Miliband to appear in any debate with other leaders where Cameron is not present. I would be amazed if he did any such thing. the tactical reason is the same as that Cameron has for refusing to debate Miliband: it puts them on an equal footing.

This is, of course, also part of Cameron's cynical calculation. He is betting that the damage to him will be minimised by Miliband's refusal to appear alongside Farage and Clegg.

My advice to Miliband would be to refuse to appear alongside other leaders if Cameron is not there.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:22 am

Morning.

Am surprised Harvey Proctor's lawyer allowed him to give a live interview on Radio 4 rather than issue a statement to the media.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:28 am

Interesting poll from Lord Ashcroft in my own constituency of Colne Valley yesterday.

It's neck and neck between Tories and Labour he says.

But the figures that struck me most were:

I would definitely not vote UKIP = 64%
I would definitely not vote Lib Dem = 58%

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:29 am

and that's in a constituency where 16,000 people voted Lib Dem last time!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:39 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Interesting poll from Lord Ashcroft in my own constituency of Colne Valley yesterday.

It's neck and neck between Tories and Labour he says.

But the figures that struck me most were:

I would definitely not vote UKIP = 64%
I would definitely not vote Lib Dem = 58%

Good isn't it

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:53 am

'I would be amazed if he did any such thing. the tactical reason is the same as that Cameron has for refusing to debate Miliband: it puts them on an equal footing.'

Well, that is bullshit, isn't it? The 'tactical reason' Cameron has for not debating is not 'being on an equal footing' with Miliband, it is that he doesn't think he will do well.

However, if you frame your arguments on this false basis, then no doubt you can carry on banging away for several hours and wind this site up, just as you tried to do at the G.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 9:56 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Interesting poll from Lord Ashcroft in my own constituency of Colne Valley yesterday.

It's neck and neck between Tories and Labour he says.

But the figures that struck me most were:

I would definitely not vote UKIP = 64%
I would definitely not vote Lib Dem = 58%

Have just checked out your constituency on Wiki. A proper marginal. How exciting! Judging from 2010, Labour wouldn't have to pick up too many disgruntled Libdem votes to win it. Of course they'd have to avoid bleeding votes to the Greens and Ukip at the same time.....only 76 on Labour's target list, though, 4 below me in NE Somerset and I thought dislodging Rees-Mogg was a bit of a long shot. If the Tories and Labour are neck and neck where you are that makes me more hopeful of getting rid of Mr 19th Century Toff, so thanks for that.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:03 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
rebeccariots2 wrote:
Miliband has said he will participate in the debates with whoever, whenever, wherever - I expect him to hold good to that and participate in the 7 way debate if that goes ahead.
I don't think so. What the Labour spokesman just said was that Miliband would turn up for the Sky/Channel 4 head to head if Cameron is empty chaired: not the other debates. He doesn't want to appear alongside Farage and Clegg without Cameron there as well.

You are wrong on that Hugo
"This is what a Labour source told me about the Downing Street claim that Labour has dropped its support for the multi-party debates. (See 9.30am.)

That is utter nonsense. We want them both, seven-ways and the two-way. That’s what the British people want, that’s what the broadcasters want and that’s what Cameron said he wanted. There is no reason now not to have those debates.

Downing Street has now agreed to one debate and that shows that they can be dragged kicking, screaming and wriggling into changing their position. Cameron is terrified of going head to head with Ed Miliband because he does not want the British people to decide who would be the best prime minister unmediated by the Daily Mail and everyone else, but he has to come out from behind the sofa and do it.

The source also insisted that, if Cameron refused to turn up for the head-to-head with Miliband, Miliband would take part anyway. “Ed has said he will be there any time, any place, anywhere,” the source said. He said there were plenty of precedents for a “debate” of this kind with just one participant, such as the Question Time election specials with party leaders."

From AS blog.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:08 am

And I am still wondering if the possibility of Clegg replacing Cameron in the 1 to 1 will be floated?

I am rather surprised at SH's spin here, I thought Ed couldn't be clearer - he wants the debates. Period.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:10 am

SpinningHugo wrote:On polls, I may be wrong, but doesn't the Ashcroft national poll of 8,000 people yesterday show a respectable Labour lead? see the last item here

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2015/03/ca ... marginals/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scotland looks like it is lost, but Lab+SNP puts Miliband in office.

I don't trust the polls coming out regarding the UK General Election for May 2015.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:12 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:And I am still wondering if the possibility of Clegg replacing Cameron in the 1 to 1 will be floated?

I am rather surprised at SH's spin here, I thought Ed couldn't be clearer - he wants the debates. Period.

I'm never surprised at SpinningHugo's spun commentary.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:15 am

The 'tactical reason' Cameron has for not debating is not 'being on an equal footing' with Miliband, it is that he doesn't think he will do well.

No doubt I'll be denounced as a Tory (again) for saying this but I don't think that is true. Cameron's reasons are twofold

First, the same reason Prime Ministers always have. They don't want to put the opponent on an equal footing. I am old enough to remember Thatcher refusing to debate Kinnock (Blair of course always refused, and the Tories sent a chicken round to follow him.)

Second, Miliband's personal poll ratings are terrible. So bad that they just could not get worse. That means that even a moderately competent performance for Miliband is a win. So, Cameron doesn't want to give him the opportunity.

I can, I promise you, give you a lengthy list of reasons why I think this government needs to be removed. But looked at from a purely technical skill as a politician perspective, Cameron is good at his job. He has been the leader of his party for nearly ten years now (Blair led Labour for 13). By that point, people are usually sick of the sight of a leader. Yet he still polls well, well ahead of his party. If he goes after the 7th and is replaced by either May or Johnson, the Tories will take a serious popularity hit. (Johnson is superficially popular, but is basically an idiot with an amusing turn of phrase).

It may be that this says something bad about our country, that we accept as PM this superficial Eton posh boy, but we live in the world we live in.

Labour has to make the most of calling Cameron a coward, and on this the media will be onside as they want the debate too. But it is cold calculation on the Tory's part, the same calculation that will mean Miliband doesn't debate Farage and Clegg without Cameron in there as well.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:17 am

SpinningHugo wrote:
He will, as he has said all along, attend the debates in whatever format the broadcasters decide.
An interesting claim.

(my edit)
It's called telling the truth.
Give it a go.
Sincerity has much to recommend it.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:20 am

SpinningHugo wrote: But it is cold calculation on the Tory's part, the same calculation that will mean Miliband doesn't debate Farage and Clegg without Cameron in there as well.

What about the calculation that Miliband debating Bennett could catch up some of the ground Labour have lost to the Greens. There has to a temptation for Miliband there, surely?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:21 am

You are over-thinking this massively, SH.

Cameron is *scared* of debating in an equal format, without 300 baying mindless yobs behind him.

It really is THAT simple - sometimes Occam's Razor applies in politics just as much as other things.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:25 am

AngryAsWell

Read that quote again. it just does not say that Miliband will debate with the other leaders if Cameron is not there. The reason Campbell was put up on radio4 today, instead of an official spokesperson, was so that that question did not have to be answered.

This is a claim that will prove true or false:

Miliband will not debate with the other leaders without Cameron also being present.

To be clear, I don't think that is cowardice. It is sensible tactical calculation.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:26 am

We have kept our promises, David Cameron insists, repeatedly
by John Crace - Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... repeatedly

No comments allowed.
The site would experience a catastrophic event brought on by the list of lies from current government.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:27 am

SpinningHugo wrote:AngryAsWell

Read that quote again. it just does not say that Miliband will debate with the other leaders if Cameron is not there. The reason Campbell was put up on radio4 today, instead of an official spokesperson, was so that that question did not have to be answered.

This is a claim that will prove true or false:

Miliband will not debate with the other leaders without Cameron also being present.

To be clear, I don't think that is cowardice. It is sensible tactical calculation.

What are you on about now?

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:27 am

Willow94

"What about the calculation that Miliband debating Bennett could catch up some of the ground Labour have lost to the Greens"

Miliband v Bennett alone might make sense, because Bennett is hopelessly incompetent. But that isn't on offer, and neither Clegg nor Farage are incompetent (as politicians).

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:29 am

SpinningHugo wrote:No doubt I'll be denounced as a Tory (again) for saying this...

(my edit)
Don't ever do other peoples' thinking for them or pretend to know what others may say.

Post by **refitman** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:33 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:And I am still wondering if the possibility of Clegg replacing Cameron in the 1 to 1 will be floated?

I am rather surprised at SH's spin here, I thought Ed couldn't be clearer - he wants the debates. Period.

Ashdown mentioned it on Today, as it's "defending the government".

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:34 am

SpinningHugo wrote: This is a claim that will prove true or false:

Miliband will not debate with the other leaders without Cameron also being present.

I say he will, and if you were in this room I'd put a fiver on it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:35 am

Good morning!

Post by **adam** » Thu 05 Mar, 2015 10:39 am

This is from a few days ago, I know, but a thought on another appallingly useless idea about dealing with abuse and its aftermath, by criminalising those who fail to report suspected abuse.

This is presumably aimed at doctors/teachers/social workers/councillors failing to deal with the kind of big public (and completely, unbelievably awful) allegations a la Rotherham and Oxford.

But despite these high profile (and completely, unbelievably awful) big public cases, child abuse is something that overwhelmingly happens in the home and within extended families and friends, and this idea will actually criminalise families and friends - older and younger siblings, cousins, mothers and aunts particularly because the abusers are overwhelmingly male.

It's one more 'we must be seen to be doing something, this is something, let's do this' / No Jerk Like A Knee Jerk response that hasn't been thought through at all.