Wednesday 18th March 2015

Post by **refitman** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 6:36 am

Good morning. Labour lead at 2 points on Yougov:

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 17th March -

Con 34%, (+1)
Lab 36%, (+1)
LD 7%, (nc)
UKIP 12%, (-1)
GRN 6%; (-1)

APP -20 (-4)

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 6:37 am

Ah, the fabled cross-over has arrived. Wait....

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 6:57 am

Good Morning. Initial thoughts before the budget.

I'm thoroughly disenchanted by politics these days and not paying as close attention as perhaps I should. Living in a Lab/Tory marginal I shall be casting my vote to oust the incumbent Tory MP. I'm particularly angered by all this talk of £6bn giveaways and associated tax break proposals. It is a joke whether or not the £6bn is unexpected, given that Osborne has serially failed at his objectives and has only halved the deficit (as a proportion of GDP). Nevertheless if a further £6bn is available then it should be used to deal with more immediate crises such as those facing the NHS and other services, although I'm not averse to tax or NI cuts at the lower end where everybody gains. Special consideration may be needed regarding non-contributory benefits as a result. Additional Tax cuts for the wealthier is just plain immoral in such times of austerity, although I'm slightly ambivalent to some reconsideration of the lower end of Death Duties but still feel there are more pressing needs.

Regarding my disenchantment, it's nothing new but I'd be much happier with the politics of moral purpose and not those pandering to financial clout. It's even more important nowadays than in the past, given our computerised and more technologically developed world. I'm not suggesting a return to such levels, and it would require international cooperation, but could you imagine excessive pay and corporations being taxed anything like in the past? What is wrong with our so-called global elite? Money cannot be the measure of status or only driver of progress and innovation. Greedy fuckers should learn their place and not be allowed anywhere near politics or the boardroom, unless they're the pioneers who developed their companies from scratch. Just look at my user name to realise how unlikely such hopes may be.

Edit: replaced technically with technologically.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 7:03 am

So what prezzies will George the Election Bribe Elf be announcing today? We've already had the comparitively large increase in minimum wage for the paupers (and with £60bn of cuts on the way they're going to need it), we've had the pensions free-for-all that's going to blow up in our faces further down the line and we've had a tax cut for the inheritors of the richest 6%. Who else needs bribing with illusory gain to help them forget the promised long term pain?

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 7:16 am

A headline from the Australian section of the Guardian that won't appear in the UK version today.

Tony Abbott promises frugal and responsible budget – politics live

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 7:23 am

Budget 2015: George Osborne to announce tidal power scheme
World first proposed for Swansea Bay could increase government’s green credentials but chancellor is also offering subsidy for North Sea oil firms

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... wer-scheme" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

George Osborne will use the budget to unveil an ambitious and costly plan to build the world’s first tidal lagoon to generate green energy.

The move comes alongside controversial measures to lower taxes for North Sea oil schemes in a bid to stem plummeting levels of UK oil exploration and production.

He is expected to introduce an investment allowance that could drive down taxes on some oil schemes from 60% to 30%. There are also hopes of a cut in the 30% supplementary tax charge on North Sea profits, which could reduce total taxes on some oil companies from 60% to 50%

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 7:30 am

A graph from the Guardian that pretty shocking.

So almost all of the growth in employment is down to people declaring themselves self-employed? And I seem to recall that it was revealed that 80% of those earn less than £15,000pa. Little wonder our tax returns have been so bad and housing benefit is rocketing.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 7:51 am

Good morning.

Utopian Dreams - I absolutely agree with you. What I'd like to see is a system whereby the boss of a company cannot be paid more than 10 times the wages of his lowest-paid employee; and bonuses are shared equally between all staff when the going is good.
Stuart Gulliver of HSBC get a salary of £1.25 Million, a "role-based allowance" of £1.7 Million, and a bonus of at least £2 Million.
The starting salary of a cashier at HSBC is £11,868.

Stephen Dolan - that graph is confirmation of what many people have been saying for some time. 850,000 new jobs, 700,000 or more self employment. So much for Cameron's boasts of "a million new private sector jobs". Many of the employee-status jobs are public sector jobs moved to the private - 190,000 in the FT sector alone. Low pay is another problem.
in 2010, there were about 600,000 working people claiming HB/LHA - now there are more than a million, claiming more than before due to cuts in tax credits and a fall in take-home pay causing them to need more HB/LHA.

It's my view that this - along with other proof of Osborne's mishandling of the economy - should be shouted from the rooftops by Labour day in day out. The Tories have provided ample evidence that they are not the careful custodians of the public purse they are advertised as; I think part of the reason for this is because Labour don't make the most of things like this graph.

Post by **adam** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 8:07 am

Spacedone wrote:A graph from the Guardian that pretty shocking.

So almost all of the growth in employment is down to people declaring themselves self-employed? And I seem to recall that it was revealed that 80% of those earn less than £15,000pa. Little wonder our tax returns have been so bad and housing benefit is rocketing.

And for a lot of people moving from employment to self employment it also means moving from secure, pensioned employment with a range of benefits (decent sick and mat/paternity pay, training, a career ladder of some kind) to none of these things - it's an even bigger 'pay cut' than it looks at first glance, and the first glance is bad..

Self-employed workers incomes slump by nearly a third Guardian, 3/12/13

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 8:13 am

ephemerid wrote:Good morning.

Utopian Dreams - I absolutely agree with you. What I'd like to see is a system whereby the boss of a company cannot be paid more than 10 times the wages of his lowest-paid employee; and bonuses are shared equally between all staff when the going is good.

Thanks ephemerid but I don't completely agree with the tenfold criterion, it would just be another reason for outsourcing employment to agencies and the like. Regarding bonuses, I once worked as a furniture store salesman and as was customary salespeople were paid individual commission. It wasn't long before I was assistant manager and persuaded the manager and staff that shared commission was more conducive to teamwork and picking up on other required activities. Since I was also responsible for all things relating to customer service, it wasn't long before I was able to gain some of the bonuses for customer facing staff such as the delivery lads too.

I believe it worked. What can be said is that during a time when furniture retailers were struggling with many going out of business, that one nearly doubled its turnover in a couple of years.

Edit: replaced delivery drivers with delivery lads. At least I'm not making my usual typos!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 8:52 am

utopiandreams wrote:Good Morning. Initial thoughts before the budget.

I'm thoroughly disenchanted by politics these days and not paying as close attention as perhaps I should. Living in a Lab/Tory marginal I shall be casting my vote to oust the incumbent Tory MP. I'm particularly angered by all this talk of £6bn giveaways and associated tax break proposals. It is a joke whether or not the £6bn is unexpected, given that Osborne has serially failed at his objectives and has only halved the deficit (as a proportion of GDP). Nevertheless if a further £6bn is available then it should be used to deal with more immediate crises such as those facing the NHS and other services, although I'm not averse to tax or NI cuts at the lower end where everybody gains. Special consideration may be needed regarding non-contributory benefits as a result. Additional Tax cuts for the wealthier is just plain immoral in such times of austerity, although I'm slightly ambivalent to some reconsideration of the lower end of Death Duties but still feel there are more pressing needs.

Regarding my disenchantment, it's nothing new but I'd be much happier with the politics of moral purpose and not those pandering to financial clout. It's even more important nowadays than in the past, given our computerised and more technologically developed world. I'm not suggesting a return to such levels, and it would require international cooperation, but could you imagine excessive pay and corporations being taxed anything like in the past? What is wrong with our so-called global elite? Money cannot be the measure of status or only driver of progress and innovation. Greedy fuckers should learn their place and not be allowed anywhere near politics or the boardroom, unless they're the pioneers who developed their companies from scratch. Just look at my user name to realise how unlikely such hopes may be.

Edit: replaced technically with technologically.

Nothing is too good to be true.
Don't apologise for having utopian dreams.
Enthusiastic normalcy
Guardvarks for Freedom

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 8:59 am

Spacedone wrote:Budget 2015: George Osborne to announce tidal power scheme
World first proposed for Swansea Bay could increase government’s green credentials but chancellor is also offering subsidy for North Sea oil firms

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... wer-scheme" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

George Osborne will use the budget to unveil an ambitious and costly plan to build the world’s first tidal lagoon to generate green energy.

The move comes alongside controversial measures to lower taxes for North Sea oil schemes in a bid to stem plummeting levels of UK oil exploration and production.

He is expected to introduce an investment allowance that could drive down taxes on some oil schemes from 60% to 30%. There are also hopes of a cut in the 30% supplementary tax charge on North Sea profits, which could reduce total taxes on some oil companies from 60% to 50%

Check out the commentary of Matthew2012 below the line. I've come to appreciate that poster's work regarding energy, climate change & the maths backing up data.

That's an aside though.
Chancellor Jeff's family has fossil fuels in their portfolios; it's been suggested Jeff doesn't believe the laws of physics apply to his world. Given his support for hydraulic fracturing endeavours as well as giving further tax concessions to oil companies, I'm unsurprised he declines to believe that which doesn't fit his narrative.

Good morning!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 9:11 am

ephemerid wrote:Good morning.

Utopian Dreams - I absolutely agree with you. What I'd like to see is a system whereby the boss of a company cannot be paid more than 10 times the wages of his lowest-paid employee; and bonuses are shared equally between all staff when the going is good.
Stuart Gulliver of HSBC get a salary of £1.25 Million, a "role-based allowance" of £1.7 Million, and a bonus of at least £2 Million.
The starting salary of a cashier at HSBC is £11,868.

Stephen Dolan - that graph is confirmation of what many people have been saying for some time. 850,000 new jobs, 700,000 or more self employment. So much for Cameron's boasts of "a million new private sector jobs". Many of the employee-status jobs are public sector jobs moved to the private - 190,000 in the FT sector alone. Low pay is another problem.
in 2010, there were about 600,000 working people claiming HB/LHA - now there are more than a million, claiming more than before due to cuts in tax credits and a fall in take-home pay causing them to need more HB/LHA.

It's my view that this - along with other proof of Osborne's mishandling of the economy - should be shouted from the rooftops by Labour day in day out. The Tories have provided ample evidence that they are not the careful custodians of the public purse they are advertised as; I think part of the reason for this is because Labour don't make the most of things like this graph.

Great graph, Spacedone not me though!

James Naughtie bigging up the good work done by Osborne, clucking along with Clarke. I'm waiting for the "Mission Accomplished" banner to be unfurled over No11.....

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 9:26 am

utopiandreams wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Good morning.

Utopian Dreams - I absolutely agree with you. What I'd like to see is a system whereby the boss of a company cannot be paid more than 10 times the wages of his lowest-paid employee; and bonuses are shared equally between all staff when the going is good.
Thanks ephemerid but I don't completely agree with the tenfold criterion, it would just be another reason for outsourcing employment to agencies and the like. Regarding bonuses, I once worked as a furniture store salesman and as was customary salespeople were paid individual commission. It wasn't long before I was assistant manager and persuaded the manager and staff that shared commission was more conducive to teamwork and picking up on other required activities. Since I was also responsible for all things relating to customer service, it wasn't long before I was able to gain some of the bonuses for customer facing staff such as the delivery lads too.

I believe it worked. What can be said is that during a time when furniture retailers were struggling with many going out of business, that one nearly doubled its turnover in a couple of years.

Edit: replaced delivery drivers with delivery lads. At least I'm not making my usual typos!

Ah, ha! You magnificent utopian dreamer! Look at the work you've accomplished! Sincerely, you're success personified. Cooperative endeavour you advocated & it worked, of course, because compensation is fairly shared. People like working & being appreciated for the work they do.

Ed Miliband doesn't like outsourced agency employment being used to cheat the employed out of proper consideration as employees. That's easy solved with the political will to do so. Some people like temp working. As long as everyone understands their obligations & have sorted out pension requirements & so on, outlawing agencies shouldn't be necessary.

I've got to look up an old post I made on the G thread regarding what I'd do if I had more money than is good for one person to hold onto. I'd worked out the care home I wanted to open. Every resident has a care worker(s) more or less at all times - tricky business, that. Personalities have to be sorted out - not everyone is suited for care work, within that special group of people knowing it's their calling, they won't all be a good match for just any person needing care. Careful attention has to be paid to getting the fit right. Shift work is a bastard, I wouldn't want someone doing shift work for extended periods of time, it takes years off the lifespan. I'd use what worked for local councils prior to privatisation of social care. I'd like to work as a care worker in the care home. The accounting books would be open to all staff to see. Everyone would be compensated well & fairly.

I'd let the people working at Coffin Dodgers see what money I had. It would make me proud to use money I had to do something useful, worthwhile & fun.

Fun. Remember fun? Current government abolished fun for the regular people. For this, I'll not forget.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 9:38 am

The ONS wage data from 1999 through 2014 were an eye-opener. If you recall my posting some of the findings here within the last two weeks regarding median wages, it's especially important to remember none of that data included the self-employed within the data.

It was bad enough, the information contained in those spreadsheets, without self-employed wages included.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 9:39 am

Come on out, Dave, and tell the electorate how good you are at being Prime Minister.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 9:57 am

citizenJA wrote:It was bad enough, the information contained in those spreadsheets, without self-employed wages included.

As I recently said in the other place, citzenJA. There is a world of difference between those with the wherewithall who willingly choose self-employment and those who are pushed off JSA by Job Centre staff. No doubt many of them are struggling with Tax Credits but should UC ever gain a foothold then we've only got go ask ephemerid what the likely outcome would be.

No need to answer, ephemerid.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 10:04 am

Key Labour NHS pledge impossible to deliver, says influential thinktank

Labour, however, said the King’s Fund had misinterpreted its policy.

“We have checked our position with the European commission and we have been given clear advice that we can legislate to place the NHS outside of EU procurement rules. The King’s Fund has got Labour’s policy wrong. In fact, this report validates our policy,” insisted a Labour spokesman.

“They are wrong to suggest that our policy is to claim a specific, formal exemption from EU rules. Labour will change the policy architecture of the NHS so it is exempt from these rules. By ‘claiming an exemption’ we mean making the necessary changes to ensure the NHS is not subject to EU procurement and competition law, as it is our right to do.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... -thinktank" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 10:26 am

citizenJA wrote:
Key Labour NHS pledge impossible to deliver, says influential thinktank

Labour, however, said the King’s Fund had misinterpreted its policy.

...

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... -thinktank" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite something that, citizenJA, the Guardian having an article about the King's Fund knocking Labour. I mean when I tried three times to direct people to one of their publications knocking the current government, they were all moderated or completely deleted. I can only assume that some Tory shill was making complaints... and presumably without reading it. It was actually quite kind toward Lansley, which I couldn't agree with, albeit highlighting his lack of political nouse or diplomacy.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 10:36 am

http://www.michaelmeacher.info/weblog/2 ... -the-rich/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Worth reading.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 10:51 am

utopiandreams wrote:
citizenJA wrote:It was bad enough, the information contained in those spreadsheets, without self-employed wages included.
As I recently said in the other place, citzenJA. There is a world of difference between those with the wherewithall who willingly choose self-employment and those who are pushed off JSA by Job Centre staff. No doubt many of them are struggling with Tax Credits but should UC ever gain a foothold then we've only got go ask ephemerid what the likely outcome would be.

No need to answer, ephemerid.

I won't answer that then.....

What I will say is this - there are many people who are currently working (self-employed or otherwise) who are badly off claiming tax credits and HB/LHA. The cuts to tax credits in cash terms are bad enough, but the amount of hours you have to work have increased too - to the point where you can be on the breadline working 30 hours a week.

I've just done a tax credits/HB calculation for a single man working 30 hours a week at NMW. His annual pay would be £10,500.
Weekly, he gets £202 - no tax, but he has to pay 12% NI on any amount over £153, which in his case costs him about a fiver.
He would be entitled to £21 in working tax credits a week - total income is then £218 a week.
He is not entitled to HB/LHA unless his rent is more than £130 a week - he would get some of the excess covered if it was.
This chap is not likely to have much more disposable income than someone on out-of-work benefits.

We hear a lot about how families are suffering - and rightly so, because many are - but we don't hear much about single people at the lower end of the jobs market. Someone like my fictitious bloke here might be a broke as his unemployed equivalent, but if he stopped working he'd be forced to apply for the same sort of work or worse, plus be subject to the constant risk of sanction.

The Tories are perfectly happy for this to be the situation - I wasn't going to mention UC (I know, I know...) but it seems to me that all the existing tax credit changes and the proposed UC ones inevitably lead to a situation in which all claimants of in-work benefits are only very slightly better off than those with no work at all - and as we are looking at between 7 and 9 million people here, it won't be long before about a third of the working population is subsisting on less than £100 a week in wages OR benefits - that is a fifth of average income.

It's frightening.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 10:59 am

D'oh! Forgot to say - Having read your post about your furniture store, I have to say I'm thinking more your way......

)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 11:12 am

citizenJA wrote:
Key Labour NHS pledge impossible to deliver, says influential thinktank

Labour, however, said the King’s Fund had misinterpreted its policy.

“We have checked our position with the European commission and we have been given clear advice that we can legislate to place the NHS outside of EU procurement rules. The King’s Fund has got Labour’s policy wrong. In fact, this report validates our policy,” insisted a Labour spokesman.

“They are wrong to suggest that our policy is to claim a specific, formal exemption from EU rules. Labour will change the policy architecture of the NHS so it is exempt from these rules. By ‘claiming an exemption’ we mean making the necessary changes to ensure the NHS is not subject to EU procurement and competition law, as it is our right to do.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... -thinktank" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Probably there have been a few quiet words with the Kings Fund since they dared to call Lansley's reorganisation of the NHS "disastrous".

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 11:16 am

Spacedone wrote:Budget 2015: George Osborne to announce tidal power scheme
World first proposed for Swansea Bay could increase government’s green credentials but chancellor is also offering subsidy for North Sea oil firms

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... wer-scheme" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

George Osborne will use the budget to unveil an ambitious and costly plan to build the world’s first tidal lagoon to generate green energy.

The move comes alongside controversial measures to lower taxes for North Sea oil schemes in a bid to stem plummeting levels of UK oil exploration and production.

He is expected to introduce an investment allowance that could drive down taxes on some oil schemes from 60% to 30%. There are also hopes of a cut in the 30% supplementary tax charge on North Sea profits, which could reduce total taxes on some oil companies from 60% to 50%

His father in law will be pleased.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 11:20 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Key Labour NHS pledge impossible to deliver, says influential thinktank

Labour, however, said the King’s Fund had misinterpreted its policy.

“We have checked our position with the European commission and we have been given clear advice that we can legislate to place the NHS outside of EU procurement rules. The King’s Fund has got Labour’s policy wrong. In fact, this report validates our policy,” insisted a Labour spokesman.

“They are wrong to suggest that our policy is to claim a specific, formal exemption from EU rules. Labour will change the policy architecture of the NHS so it is exempt from these rules. By ‘claiming an exemption’ we mean making the necessary changes to ensure the NHS is not subject to EU procurement and competition law, as it is our right to do.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015 ... -thinktank" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Probably there have been a few quiet words with the Kings Fund since they dared to call Lansley's reorganisation of the NHS "disastrous".

I haven't taken the time to check the Kings Fund website for source information from them. I think it's a genuine mistake. I don't think it's a Labour party mistake - I've a great deal of respect for Kings Fund, that's why I posted this - I'm sorry for what I hope is a misunderstanding. The current Labour party are policy wonks. Of course an error on Labour's part is possible. I doubt it.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 11:45 am

citizenJA wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Probably there have been a few quiet words with the Kings Fund since they dared to call Lansley's reorganisation of the NHS "disastrous".
I haven't taken the time to check the Kings Fund website for source information from them. I think it's a genuine mistake. I don't think it's a Labour party mistake - I've a great deal of respect for Kings Fund, that's why I posted this - I'm sorry for what I hope is a misunderstanding. The current Labour party are policy wonks. Of course an error on Labour's part is possible. I doubt it.

I used to have a lot of respect for the Kings Fund - but not since Chris Ham took charge. He's a "policy wonk" if there ever was one.
He is a political scientist by trade, and has been very influential in health care for a long time - worked at DOH under New Labour.

In the face of the evidence, he opined that care at Hinchingbrooke improved when Circle took over - it is now in special measures as the CQC has found serious failings in care, and that is the real reason why Circle ran away because it couldn't deliver what it claimed.

This time last year, the Kings Fund contributed to a research paper which concluded that health and social care could be funded by a £25 charge to visit a GP. They still do a lot of very valuable work, and make an important contribution - but Ham, however clever he is (and he IS very clever) doesn't impress me.

WelshIan · Post by **WelshIan** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 11:52 am

Spacedone wrote:Budget 2015: George Osborne to announce tidal power scheme
World first proposed for Swansea Bay could increase government’s green credentials but chancellor is also offering subsidy for North Sea oil firms

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... wer-scheme" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

George Osborne will use the budget to unveil an ambitious and costly plan to build the world’s first tidal lagoon to generate green energy.

The move comes alongside controversial measures to lower taxes for North Sea oil schemes in a bid to stem plummeting levels of UK oil exploration and production.

He is expected to introduce an investment allowance that could drive down taxes on some oil schemes from 60% to 30%. There are also hopes of a cut in the 30% supplementary tax charge on North Sea profits, which could reduce total taxes on some oil companies from 60% to 50%

The government are not the only potential investors in the tidal project - the company has just closed the latest round of investment. Equity shareholders in the development phase include the local community, Tidal Lagoon Power management, high net worth individuals and corporations.

From the article:

The Tidal Lagoon Power company will be offered the chance to discuss subsidies similar to the “contracts for difference” used on the planned Hinkley Point C nuclear plant in Somerset

The company were planning on applying for a contract for difference once it had all the paperwork sorted. This information on the investment and CfD are taken from the website's FAQs:
http://www.tidallagoonswanseabay.com/faqs.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More info on CfDs here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... difference" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This just seems to be Osborne jumping on a project to provide some greenwash to the government's energy credentials.

Post by **adam** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 12:08 pm

'Second kitchen …. second kitchen…' Miliband deserves a medal for not telling Cameron to 'just fuck off'.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 12:16 pm

adam wrote:'Second kitchen …. second kitchen…' Miliband deserves a medal for not telling Cameron to 'just fuck off'.

I did like the "At least I paid for mine unlike the chief whip" given where the two kitchens stuff came from.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 12:22 pm

So much for encouraging whistle blowers - Civil Servants to be sacked for speaking to journalists without government approval.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... roval.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder if the same rules might be extended to special advisers or ministers who leak documents without official permission? No, thought not.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 12:27 pm

adam wrote:'Second kitchen …. second kitchen…' Miliband deserves a medal for not telling Cameron to 'just fuck off'.

Does Cameron really think that acting like that, when Miliband is asking serious questions about NHS provisions and the closures of A&E departments, makes him look good? It's like he's on gag autopilot, if Miliband had asked him about ISIS atrocities, or child sex abuse I suspect he would have responded in the same way. Everything's like the Oxford student debating chamber to that man.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 12:33 pm

Re. yesterdays Reeves interview and the resulting Twitterstorm, both she and Amelia Gentleman have been engaged in a spot of damage control and Amelia has posted this clarification; mind you, it begs the question as to why she published an abbreviated answer in her original piece, simple oversight or editorial pressure?

As for Jack Monroe joining the Greens, always assumed she was a member anyway. The woman is a walking cliché.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 12:33 pm

So Dave's covered himself in his peculiar kind of glory during PMQs again, I gather.
You got to be kidding me?
Dave sparred with the kitchen thing?

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 12:39 pm

Cameron was very wobbly when responding to the cancer waiting times questions.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 12:40 pm

citizenJA wrote:So Dave's covered himself in his peculiar kind of glory during PMQs again, I gather.
You got to be kidding me?
Dave sparred with the kitchen thing?

And I note (via Twitter) The Sparrow calling it for Chicken Dave as a result. Oh for the days when that was a serious newspaper, not a slightly oversized comic.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 12:59 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
citizenJA wrote:So Dave's covered himself in his peculiar kind of glory during PMQs again, I gather.
You got to be kidding me?
Dave sparred with the kitchen thing?
And I note (via Twitter) The Sparrow calling it for Chicken Dave as a result. Oh for the days when that was a serious newspaper, not a slightly oversized comic.

Don't believe he got away with joking about people not knowing where their next meal is coming from,
probably not a food bank, Dave?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:13 pm

Well. I tried. I really tried. I put PMQs on. Watching old smooth tongue glibly pushing aside the appalling cancer treatment figures, and having the urge to smash my computer I jumped up and thought I'd do a few chores and just listen.
And then Osborne came on. I had to turn him off.
In the last few days I've become far more angry than is good for me.

It leaves me wondering if I'll be able to stay up for the election results and if the Cons get in, how will I be able to get up and carry on as normal?

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:13 pm

tinybgoat wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
citizenJA wrote:So Dave's covered himself in his peculiar kind of glory during PMQs again, I gather.
You got to be kidding me?
Dave sparred with the kitchen thing?
And I note (via Twitter) The Sparrow calling it for Chicken Dave as a result. Oh for the days when that was a serious newspaper, not a slightly oversized comic.
Don't believe he got away with joking about people not knowing where their next meal is coming from,
probably not a food bank, Dave?

My point exactly. Sparrow openly expresses admiration for Cameron, because he is only looking at the surface gloss and not the substance below; that comment was in poor taste, given how many he & his cronies have reduced to the point where they literally don't know where their next meal is coming from.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:27 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Well. I tried. I really tried. I put PMQs on. Watching old smooth tongue glibly pushing aside the appalling cancer treatment figures, and having the urge to smash my computer I jumped up and thought I'd do a few chores and just listen.
And then Osborne came on. I had to turn him off.
In the last few days I've become far more angry than is good for me.

It leaves me wondering if I'll be able to stay up for the election results and if the Cons get in, how will I be able to get up and carry on as normal?

I've been pondering that.
If the Tories get in because they win a landslide [unlikely I know], in a sense it would be easier to accept than if the Tories sneak back in because of the votes of people who have fallen for the spiel of the 'lefter than you' small parties.

On a personal level my household won't be worse off financially under the Tories, may even be a few pounds up if the Tories did bring in a married people tax allowance.
But the way Britain will change in another five years of them in power is too depressing to contemplate.

An old friend of my husband lives in South America and has got got his papers sorted to be able to work in Cuba after a short work visit last year. He's going for a stint in May and has asked us to join him.
Have to admit if the Tories get in we may well take him up on it and leave the UK behind for as long as a Cuban tourist visa would allow.
At least several thousand miles away I'd be less likely to strangle the Ms Monroes of this world who will be no doubt whining on about how awful a Tory government is without taking responsibility for their role in how Cameron got back into No 10.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:32 pm

And just an idle observation...

Is Osborne styling himself to look like a Roman? Every time I look at him that's what I'm reminded of.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:37 pm

Help to buy ISAs. Wtf?

Miliband sounds really fired up and angry.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:39 pm

He does have a look of Caligula about him.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:41 pm

Just a note, I thank you all for your posts, I'm not just saying that. Thank you, everyone. The page takes too long to reload after I thank you for your posts.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:42 pm

Can you say more about the ISAa Stephen ?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:43 pm

yahyah wrote:He does have a look of Caligula about him.

Of course, that was my thought too. Let's not encourage Jeff. He'd probably dig being compared to Caligula.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:43 pm

yahyah wrote:Can you say more about the ISA Stephen ?

Save £200 towards a deposit, get £50 from the government. Then get the help to buy discount too.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:45 pm

Miliband is destroying Osborne. Absolutely dismantling him. I wonder what Piennar will say?

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:45 pm

Found it myself:

''Help to Buy ISAs to be introduced. It will apply to first-time buyers, and for every £200 they save, the government will top it up with £50.''

25% return ! But you have to have money to get it.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:45 pm

Help To Buy ISA For ever £200 you save we'll give you another £50. Plus some sort of super-new-fresh-improved ISA where you can take fifteen grand out of an ISA and put it back in later the same year.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Wed 18 Mar, 2015 1:47 pm

Couple of killer quotes from EM:

Mr Miliband says the Lib Dems are "locked in the boot of the Conservative Party".

"Our constituents want to hear what both sides wish to say," the deputy Speaker says, pleading with government MPs to hush. Ed Miliband only winds them up more by quoting Joe Anderson, the leader of Liverpool City Council, condemning the government. In the interests of balance, the Labour leader adds:"I would have liked to quote a Conservative leader of a northern city, but there aren't any."