Thursday 19th March 2015

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 6:02 am

Whatever you do don't look at the front page of The Sun today. There are some sights you just don't want to see...

Oh... morning!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 6:08 am

'Osborne also put another “downpayment” on his promise to lift the higher rate tax threshold to £50,000. It will rise from £42,385 in 2015-16 to £42,700 in 2016-17, and to £43,300 by 2017-18.

But of course it was Osborne who dragged so many middle-income households into the higher tax band in the first place. At the start of his chancellorship, 3.3 million people paid 40% tax, but this has now jumped to around 4.6 million – and even lifting the starting point to £50,000 won’t reduce that by much, critics say, arguing that inflation and pay rises will continue to drag more households into the upper band. '
Glad to see this reported, in the Guardian of all places. Far too many political commentators repeat what the government says without giving any context of what has happened during this parliament.

Post by **letsskiptotheleft** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 6:13 am

Spacedone wrote:Whatever you do don't look at the front page of The Sun today. There are some sights you just don't want to see...

Oh... morning!

Some things can never be unseen.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 6:19 am

' Osborne trumpeted the fact that at the end of this parliament the richest are paying a higher proportion of income tax than ever before and the poorest a lower proportion than before. Of course they are. That’s because of growing inequality in the UK. And what Osborne offered was a budget for those with money left over at the end of the month and ignored all those who struggle to make ends meet.

In that sense this was a deeply political budget, and that is how it should be judged. And by that criterion it also failed. If by some remote chance Cameron is prime minister in mid May it won’t be due to Osborne’s efforts today. He’d be wise to note how Major rewarded Lamont and send Osborne the same way'

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2015/03/18/28302/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 6:23 am

Here's an article in the Independent that's the equivalent of a toddler threatening to hold their breath until they get what they want. Nobody ever got what they wanted from a political party by making themselves an invisible non-voter.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 17203.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, George Osborne’s announcements haven’t done many favours for this nation’s young people. Don’t get me wrong: he’s taken tax returns digital and lowered the duty on a pint of beer. No complaints. But contrary to popular belief, not all young voters sit around playing on their smartphones slurping lager all day.

What about living wages and affordable rents? What about wealth inequality and unfair benefits caps? It’s no wonder one in eight twenty-somethings have already decided not to vote in May – myself included.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 6:30 am

Morning all. Believe it or not I have very little to say about yesterday's budget. I may be drawn but needless to say am unimpressed.

One of the things I've found interesting on visits to this site has been the accounts of doorstep canvassing. RebaccaRiots (isn't it?) and ErnstRemarx' contributions too. To give it a bit of context the reason I ask is that a very long time ago I used to do a bit of doorstep canvassing myself. Some of you may consider it spivvery, especially as the markup of our product initially seemed excessive and hooked people into somewhat high small loan interest rates (credit broker's licence required with very little checks, back then anyway) plus we employed others on a commission only basis. On the latter score it was in nobody's interest if they couldn't hack it, so they either left after a couple of days or stayed on with a reasonably lucrative income.

There was however some moral purpose behind it, what we sold was first aid and fire safety equipment both directly to to shops, pubs, etc. and through weekly finance arrangements to what were largely council estates supplied with don't serve lists by local offices of the likes of Shopacheck and Practical Finance. As an aside often the most lucrative areas selling directly to business were in areas with a high prevalence of Asian shops. You'd go through your demonstration of fire equipment with almost nil response then you'd crack it. Having made a sale you'd often get asked to wait, a son or daughter of the proprietors would then nip out and before you knew it some of those you'd previously visited and others would be queuing up asking you to re(visit) their premises and sign them up (with no further sales pitches).

I digress, as far as householders were concerned you'd be surprised at how many there were with young children who didn't have adequate safeguards. The high markup wasn't excessive when you add in the packaging, travel and commission costs, not to mention the finance company markup and attrition rate, i.e number of returns. The commission paid had been covered by the deposit but tey couldn't be repackaged in case of contamination or even deliberate sabotage. True there was a greater markup for cash sales with no risk, but we also paid the canvasser substantially more.

Anyway after such a long preamble, my question. Do you have a scripted patter? We all get fed up of the memorable hooks or soundbites that are constantly repeated by politicians. It is understandable from a marketing point of view but overused when we hear them repeated time and time again. Such patter is usually carefully worded to elicit agreement at every stage. The trick is delivering it in as little a rehearsed manner as is possible. Yep, I've also sold Unit Trusts in between jobs and have been taught all the hard sell techniques in the book. Even that was a worthy product though, as is typical with finance groups, the commission was outlandish. So to repeat the question, is each conversation completely unique or do you have a rehearsed patter that you endeavour to return to? Just asking.

Edit: inserted safety into fire equipment plus a typo.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 7:27 am

Spacedone wrote:Whatever you do don't look at the front page of The Sun today. There are some sights you just don't want to see...

Not that I would have looked anyway, but I had taken heed of your warning, Spacedone. Having said that I've just seen Osborne on BBC News and it was shown. Bloody hell! Regarding the ad it's taken from, it's just wrong, just plain wrong as I would put it.

As for Georgie Boy and his lies, one of the ones that Tories often repeat and really irks me is the one about benefit reforms helping people out of unemployment. What they really mean is sanctions pushing people off registers into the black economy or criminality. 'And that's on top of the so-called self-employment or zero hour contracts.

Edit: a couple of typos, would you believe?

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 7:38 am

Utopian Dreams - what an interesting post!

I've never sold anything for a living - although in my last job I had to convince the loved ones of addicts that they could do with some treatment themselves (sort of family drug/alcohol care) and that could be a very tough sell. Getting funding out of commissioners was more like begging....

Where we are, in Hay-on-Wye, our candidate is not likely to win - we'll probably return the LibDem again or the Tory. But he's quite well known in the area as he used to be the mayor of the nearest large town (Brecon) and he's done a lot for it.
I tend to say that we are asking for support for Matthew AND Labour, and then ask them if they intend to vote and who for. We have a few local issues that people get fired up about, and tell people what Matthew's been doing to sort them out.
We also have a Labour government here in Wales and it's been my experience that most people think it's doing an OK job, so I use that too.

Personally I don't pursue a conversation if it's obvious someone is hostile. I don't see the point, and I'd rather spend my time with people who are undecided and try to persuade them that their interests would be best served by a Labour government.
I also look at the house and see if there are children or whatever, and kick off with something about the local schools or something.

We had a 75% turnout here in 2010, 10% more than the national average. Canvassing in Hay (we do the half that contains the council estate where we live and two posh housing developments) is quite a weird experience at times. We have a lot of incomers in the smarter areas; there's a lot of money around and those people tend to vote Tory. Brecon and Radnor is a very widespread constituency, with a lot of farmers (current MP is a farmer) and there are quite a few hippies around (who come to settle here because it's all a bit funky) and they vote Green if they bother at all and they often get involved in local things (which they turn up to in their trustafarian 4x4s) and drone on about compost toilets......
We have a lot of older people here too, and a lot of them have carers - Powys has had problems with it's homecare contracts and that's something we're hearing a lot; we also have a lot of young people who scrape together odd seasonal jobs, but who struggle to build a career locally and have no chance of buying a home here because they've been priced out. Labour policies would certainly help them, so we talk about that.

The chap who runs the local party doesn't insist on a script, but he does send out emails with things he thinks we should be saying on the doorstep, and they usually involve something that Ed has said lately. I find it's better to have a more personal conversation, so that's what I do.
Of course, I'm new to this; I've never done election campaigning before; but I genuinely think that Matthew will be a good MP, and I hope that comes across. Show is offering his services to drive people to the Polling Station on the day, so we offer that too if it's appropriate.

If I had a standard patter or was given a script I'd be useless - for me, it's all about the people and who they are. I have to believe in what I'm saying to get a message across, otherwise I'm no use at all!

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 7:53 am

Morning.

There'll be swear word filled attacks from hard line 45%ers when they hear about this.

SNP referendum oil figures '13 times higher than reality'
New figures published by the Office for Budget Responsibility show the North Sea is only expected to generate £600 million next year, compared to the SNP's prediction of £7.9 billion.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ality.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, we'll find out in time who is right.

yahyah · Post by **yahyah** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 8:08 am

Oh my lord, have accidentally seen the Sun front page on Twitter.
It should have a health warning.

Owen Jones is right when he says 'The Sun is basically now Tory press releases meets Carry On isn't it.'

The Sun bigging up Osborne is daft though.
How many of their readers will be feeling 'the booming economy' in their pockets ?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 8:29 am

'Toxic smog from the Continent set to shroud Britain'

Post by **refitman** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 8:30 am

Tee-hee. James Naughtie just called Osborne a "moral failure", using Cameron's words.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 8:37 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

'Toxic smog from the Continent set to shroud Britain'

That'll be the UKIP MEPs coming back, then.

Well, the ones that bother to go and do their jobs, that is....

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 8:42 am

In reply to ephemerid, I've had other sales positions too but with much more varied product ranges so rather less of the patter. Although when I sold furniture if it were an upholstered suite, for example, I would just naturally assume that they would have the extra stain protection, something that was sprayed in-house. Anyway I had developed a bit of a patter with that.

Indeed the owner of the business (brother of the store manager) overheard me selling it to an elderly lady, following which he spoke to his brother about said protection. On discovery of its mark-up and the absence of sales at his Uttoxeter branch, I was summoned to go and train them.

By the way, I was only able to negotiate the pooling of commission that I spoke of yesterday because as often as not I'd be one of the top salesmen. Not quantity but by value; I had customer service calls too. As for the rest of my selling, that was most definitely conversational. I'm far more interested in others than spouting on myself; not that you'd believe it once I get going.

Edit: typos!

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 8:45 am

refitman wrote:Tee-hee. James Naughtie just called Osborne a "moral failure", using Cameron's words.

Yes, thought that was amusing. Given that Naughtie was overall very gently interviewing Osborne I thought Osborne sounded rather shaky. Revising once again how you measure a deficit is the typical sophistry we've come to expect under the gruesome twosome.

The odd choice word left my mouth as Naughtie let Osborne witter on.
One final comment, James Landale is a complete and utter prick.

Post by **refitman** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:02 am

StephenDolan wrote:
refitman wrote:Tee-hee. James Naughtie just called Osborne a "moral failure", using Cameron's words.
Yes, thought that was amusing. Given that Naughtie was overall very gently interviewing Osborne I thought Osborne sounded rather shaky. Revising once again how you measure a deficit is the typical sophistry we've come to expect under the gruesome twosome.

The odd choice word left my mouth as Naughtie let Osborne witter on.
One final comment, James Landale is a complete and utter prick.

I think Naughtie was going for 'iron fist in velvet glove'. He did manage to get some good jibes - the moral failure and also about not committing to defence spending of 2%.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:03 am

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ia ... ap-5361269" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Did we do this?

Iain Duncan Smith's benefits cap breaches children's right, judges rule

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:04 am

utopiandreams wrote:Morning all. Believe it or not I have very little to say about yesterday's budget. I may be drawn but needless to say am unimpressed.

One of the things I've found interesting on visits to this site has been the accounts of doorstep canvassing. RebaccaRiots (isn't it?) and ErnstRemarx' contributions too. To give it a bit of context the reason I ask is that a very long time ago I used to do a bit of doorstep canvassing myself. Some of you may consider it spivvery, especially as the markup of our product initially seemed excessive and hooked people into somewhat high small loan interest rates (credit broker's licence required with very little checks, back then anyway) plus we employed others on a commission only basis. On the latter score it was in nobody's interest if they couldn't hack it, so they either left after a couple of days or stayed on with a reasonably lucrative income.

There was however some moral purpose behind it, what we sold was first aid and fire safety equipment both directly to to shops, pubs, etc. and through weekly finance arrangements to what were largely council estates supplied with don't serve lists by local offices of the likes of Shopacheck and Practical Finance. As an aside often the most lucrative areas selling directly to business were in areas with a high prevalence of Asian shops. You'd go through your demonstration of fire equipment with almost nil response then you'd crack it. Having made a sale you'd often get asked to wait, a son or daughter of the proprietors would then nip out and before you knew it some of those you'd previously visited and others would be queuing up asking you to re(visit) their premises and sign them up (with no further sales pitches).

I digress, as far as householders were concerned you'd be surprised at how many there were with young children who didn't have adequate safeguards. The high markup wasn't excessive when you add in the packaging, travel and commission costs, not to mention the finance company markup and attrition rate, i.e number of returns. The commission paid had been covered by the deposit but tey couldn't be repackaged in case of contamination or even deliberate sabotage. True there was a greater markup for cash sales with no risk, but we also paid the canvasser substantially more.

Anyway after such a long preamble, my question. Do you have a scripted patter? We all get fed up of the memorable hooks or soundbites that are constantly repeated by politicians. It is understandable from a marketing point of view but overused when we hear them repeated time and time again. Such patter is usually carefully worded to elicit agreement at every stage. The trick is delivering it in as little a rehearsed manner as is possible. Yep, I've also sold Unit Trusts in between jobs and have been taught all the hard sell techniques in the book. Even that was a worthy product though, as is typical with finance groups, the commission was outlandish. So to repeat the question, is each conversation completely unique or do you have a rehearsed patter that you endeavour to return to? Just asking.

Edit: inserted safety into fire equipment plus a typo.

In a word, no. Depending on the area, you'll know what the perceived issues are, but apart from that, the only thing we're asked to do is to find out who they're actually going to vote for, and how they voted last time, and that's it. I ask people if there's anything that we can do on their behalf and try to get an understanding of what concerns them. Sometimes they'll give you something to follow up, sometimes not. I don't go all party political on them as I feel that doesn't work. Even Tory/UKIP voters seem to appreciate being asked and most have never had a politician or party representative knock on before, whilst Labour voters just seem happy to chew the fat and chat to you. Nothing complicated.

danesclose · Post by **danesclose** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:04 am

Morning all. The residents of West Wirral are holding a "sack Esther McVey" march today

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liv ... mp-8871329" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:10 am

Spacedone wrote:Here's an article in the Independent that's the equivalent of a toddler threatening to hold their breath until they get what they want. Nobody ever got what they wanted from a political party by making themselves an invisible non-voter.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 17203.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, George Osborne’s announcements haven’t done many favours for this nation’s young people. Don’t get me wrong: he’s taken tax returns digital and lowered the duty on a pint of beer. No complaints. But contrary to popular belief, not all young voters sit around playing on their smartphones slurping lager all day.

What about living wages and affordable rents? What about wealth inequality and unfair benefits caps? It’s no wonder one in eight twenty-somethings have already decided not to vote in May – myself included.

Yeah, Hero, not voting will sure show Osborne!
Well done you.
Kiss your enfranchisement & democracy goodbye, Fool.
There wasn't any call for me to call the non-voter names.
I'll hardly get anywhere doing that.
It's disappointing to read some people take their vote for granted.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:11 am

Good-morning people.
Anyone else getting two posts showing up on the thread?

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:12 am

utopiandreams wrote:Morning all. Believe it or not I have very little to say about yesterday's budget. I may be drawn but needless to say am unimpressed.

One of the things I've found interesting on visits to this site has been the accounts of doorstep canvassing. RebaccaRiots (isn't it?) and ErnstRemarx' contributions too. To give it a bit of context the reason I ask is that a very long time ago I used to do a bit of doorstep canvassing myself. Some of you may consider it spivvery, especially as the markup of our product initially seemed excessive and hooked people into somewhat high small loan interest rates (credit broker's licence required with very little checks, back then anyway) plus we employed others on a commission only basis. On the latter score it was in nobody's interest if they couldn't hack it, so they either left after a couple of days or stayed on with a reasonably lucrative income.

There was however some moral purpose behind it, what we sold was first aid and fire safety equipment both directly to to shops, pubs, etc. and through weekly finance arrangements to what were largely council estates supplied with don't serve lists by local offices of the likes of Shopacheck and Practical Finance. As an aside often the most lucrative areas selling directly to business were in areas with a high prevalence of Asian shops. You'd go through your demonstration of fire equipment with almost nil response then you'd crack it. Having made a sale you'd often get asked to wait, a son or daughter of the proprietors would then nip out and before you knew it some of those you'd previously visited and others would be queuing up asking you to re(visit) their premises and sign them up (with no further sales pitches).

I digress, as far as householders were concerned you'd be surprised at how many there were with young children who didn't have adequate safeguards. The high markup wasn't excessive when you add in the packaging, travel and commission costs, not to mention the finance company markup and attrition rate, i.e number of returns. The commission paid had been covered by the deposit but tey couldn't be repackaged in case of contamination or even deliberate sabotage. True there was a greater markup for cash sales with no risk, but we also paid the canvasser substantially more.

Anyway after such a long preamble, my question. Do you have a scripted patter? We all get fed up of the memorable hooks or soundbites that are constantly repeated by politicians. It is understandable from a marketing point of view but overused when we hear them repeated time and time again. Such patter is usually carefully worded to elicit agreement at every stage. The trick is delivering it in as little a rehearsed manner as is possible. Yep, I've also sold Unit Trusts in between jobs and have been taught all the hard sell techniques in the book. Even that was a worthy product though, as is typical with finance groups, the commission was outlandish. So to repeat the question, is each conversation completely unique or do you have a rehearsed patter that you endeavour to return to? Just asking.

Edit: inserted safety into fire equipment plus a typo.

IMHO that is quite an odd question to be 'just asking' (and it is just my humble opinion - here in Hope, I'm not affiliated to political party....I do tend to get involved in a lot of conversations about politics however, and surprise a lot of people with my declaration of being an adherent of Marxism (the response of 'that doesn't apply to now' could be almost 'scripted', it is so prevalent) and then a strong supporter of Mr Ed - causes consternation with the 'they'reallthesame-ers' as well as Ukippers and Tories (no Lost Deposit seen around these parts for many a long year (well, 5 years, anyway)) and I say again, I am not now and have never been a member of the Labour Party and have never voted Labour in my life...which will change in May (and, to be fair, Mr Ed has had me very close to joining the Party))...FFS Wolfie - enough with the parentheses - get on with it you m*****t

The difference between learning (and repeating) a script to secure a sale and discussing political policy is interplanetary - that is to say, I see no connection or similarity, other than you're generally talking to people you've never spoken to before.

My political beliefs and passion for social justice are inate (I believe(TM)) so are spoken from the heart from a background of knowledge and understanding. To sell, using a script or not, is effectively being a mouthpiece for whoever/whatever you are selling for (unless you have invented the product yourself, in which case you would know and care enough about it to speak confidently without the need for a script) - scripts are used to ensure that there is no deviation from the accepted line, you are told the facts you need and no more...and you are not really expected to have any understanding of the product outside the 'script'. It is possible with a silver tongue and a personable nature (people buy people, not products) to be successful doorstep selling/cold calling, but as you point out, the attrition rate (of poor souls just looking for some way of getting access to some sort of cash) is huge, with very few actually making a living long term.

By way of explanation of my experience, I left HM Forces in the mid-80s, no qualifications but a lot of confidence, a quick(ish) mind and a somewhat silver tongue...so I made quite a comfortable living (for a couple of years, until the family arrived) selling financial products on commission only (which I tried to do without mis-selling, and trained my teams in the same manner - 'it is possible to make money in this business without lying' (ref: Pensions mis-selling, late '80s)). I've remained on the sales side of business, although what I do now is far more rewarding (supplying access products for disability inclusion) and most definitely has no script.

So...having waffled on and probably missed the point completely, I'll stop....but I'll press 'submit' anyway, in the hope that it might make a bit of sense

...and moreveaftingtinoon all...

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:12 am

danesclose wrote:Morning all. The residents of West Wirral are holding a "sack Esther McVey" march today

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liv ... mp-8871329" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Halleluiah.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:19 am

A bit of cheer.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... nal-polls/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:25 am

Lonewolfie wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:Morning all. Believe it or not I have very little to say about yesterday's budget. I may be drawn but needless to say am unimpressed.

One of the things I've found interesting on visits to this site has been the accounts of doorstep canvassing. RebaccaRiots (isn't it?) and ErnstRemarx' contributions too. To give it a bit of context the reason I ask is that a very long time ago I used to do a bit of doorstep canvassing myself. Some of you may consider it spivvery, especially as the markup of our product initially seemed excessive and hooked people into somewhat high small loan interest rates (credit broker's licence required with very little checks, back then anyway) plus we employed others on a commission only basis. On the latter score it was in nobody's interest if they couldn't hack it, so they either left after a couple of days or stayed on with a reasonably lucrative income.

There was however some moral purpose behind it, what we sold was first aid and fire safety equipment both directly to to shops, pubs, etc. and through weekly finance arrangements to what were largely council estates supplied with don't serve lists by local offices of the likes of Shopacheck and Practical Finance. As an aside often the most lucrative areas selling directly to business were in areas with a high prevalence of Asian shops. You'd go through your demonstration of fire equipment with almost nil response then you'd crack it. Having made a sale you'd often get asked to wait, a son or daughter of the proprietors would then nip out and before you knew it some of those you'd previously visited and others would be queuing up asking you to re(visit) their premises and sign them up (with no further sales pitches).

I digress, as far as householders were concerned you'd be surprised at how many there were with young children who didn't have adequate safeguards. The high markup wasn't excessive when you add in the packaging, travel and commission costs, not to mention the finance company markup and attrition rate, i.e number of returns. The commission paid had been covered by the deposit but tey couldn't be repackaged in case of contamination or even deliberate sabotage. True there was a greater markup for cash sales with no risk, but we also paid the canvasser substantially more.

Anyway after such a long preamble, my question. Do you have a scripted patter? We all get fed up of the memorable hooks or soundbites that are constantly repeated by politicians. It is understandable from a marketing point of view but overused when we hear them repeated time and time again. Such patter is usually carefully worded to elicit agreement at every stage. The trick is delivering it in as little a rehearsed manner as is possible. Yep, I've also sold Unit Trusts in between jobs and have been taught all the hard sell techniques in the book. Even that was a worthy product though, as is typical with finance groups, the commission was outlandish. So to repeat the question, is each conversation completely unique or do you have a rehearsed patter that you endeavour to return to? Just asking.

Edit: inserted safety into fire equipment plus a typo.
IMHO that is quite an odd question to be 'just asking' (and it is just my humble opinion - here in Hope, I'm not affiliated to political party....I do tend to get involved in a lot of conversations about politics however, and surprise a lot of people with my declaration of being an adherent of Marxism (the response of 'that doesn't apply to now' could be almost 'scripted', it is so prevalent) and then a strong supporter of Mr Ed - causes consternation with the 'they'reallthesame-ers' as well as Ukippers and Tories (no Lost Deposit seen around these parts for many a long year (well, 5 years, anyway)) and I say again, I am not now and have never been a member of the Labour Party and have never voted Labour in my life...which will change in May (and, to be fair, Mr Ed has had me very close to joining the Party))...FFS Wolfie - enough with the parentheses - get on with it you m*****t

The difference between learning (and repeating) a script to secure a sale and discussing political policy is interplanetary - that is to say, I see no connection or similarity, other than you're generally talking to people you've never spoken to before.

My political beliefs and passion for social justice are inate (I believe(TM)) so are spoken from the heart from a background of knowledge and understanding. To sell, using a script or not, is effectively being a mouthpiece for whoever/whatever you are selling for (unless you have invented the product yourself, in which case you would know and care enough about it to speak confidently without the need for a script) - scripts are used to ensure that there is no deviation from the accepted line, you are told the facts you need and no more...and you are not really expected to have any understanding of the product outside the 'script'. It is possible with a silver tongue and a personable nature (people buy people, not products) to be successful doorstep selling/cold calling, but as you point out, the attrition rate (of poor souls just looking for some way of getting access to some sort of cash) is huge, with very few actually making a living long term.

By way of explanation of my experience, I left HM Forces in the mid-80s, no qualifications but a lot of confidence, a quick(ish) mind and a somewhat silver tongue...so I made quite a comfortable living (for a couple of years, until the family arrived) selling financial products on commission only (which I tried to do without mis-selling, and trained my teams in the same manner - 'it is possible to make money in this business without lying' (ref: Pensions mis-selling, late '80s)). I've remained on the sales side of business, although what I do now is far more rewarding (supplying access products for disability inclusion) and most definitely has no script.

So...having waffled on and probably missed the point completely, I'll stop....but I'll press 'submit' anyway, in the hope that it might make a bit of sense

...and moreveaftingtinoon all...

Yeah don't worry you make perfect sense. As for just asking, the main reason being the manner in which politicians keep repeating their message and not that I once did door-to door canvassing as I'd put it, albeit that was one of the things that raised the question. Nevertheless I think there is some similarity between sales and putting a message across. I don't wish to get into any arguments so please appreciate that I mean this in the most kiindly way but also hate using emoticons. I may be familiar with hard-sell techniques, which I can see from a country mile, but I absolutely hate them. Much better building relationships where all parties have mutual benefits.

Edit: inserted using between hate emoticons. I don't mind seeing them, I'm just funny like that.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:32 am

citizenJA wrote:Good-morning people.
Anyone else getting two posts showing up on the thread?

No

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:33 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Good-morning people.
Anyone else getting two posts showing up on the thread?
No

And still no

It's hard to stop this.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:40 am

It only happened the one time.
Thank goodness for that; my posts don't require repeating them.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:41 am

Good morfternoon.

@ citizenJA

Hello. In answer to your question: no, I'm not experiencing any problems today. Although, since this is my first post of the day, perhaps I'm not yet in the best position to pontificate if your problem is related to things that you have posted. If you get my drift.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:41 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Good-morning people.
Anyone else getting two posts showing up on the thread?
No
And still no

It's hard to stop this.

I like your style, PaulfromYorkshire.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:43 am

citizenJA wrote:
danesclose wrote:Morning all. The residents of West Wirral are holding a "sack Esther McVey" march today

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liv ... mp-8871329" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Halleluiah.

Hallelujah indeed.

Great quote from the hectoring harpy at the end -
"I am perfectly content for the Labour Party and their union paymasters to continue their personal attacks and smears against me"

We will, Fester, we will.

Politics really doesn't need self-promoting ambitious thick-as-a-brick nonentities like McVey.
Cameron has promoted women like her way beyond their capability just to look good - people like her and Morgan are still being controlled by IDS and Gove; it's all just window-dressing but the women themselves are too daft to see it.
Worst of all is the idiot Truss - putting her in charge at DEFRA when she has neither aptitude nor interest in the job just shows how much Cameron actually cares about farming/fishing etc. and the environment.

Not so long ago, ministers didn't get promoted to that level without a few years of solid service behind them.

Cameron has promoted men too in the same way - look at that eejit Hancock.
The man's a moron, and another one promoted way too early.

Cameron gets rid of people like Dominic Grieve who was the last reasonable Tory left in a senior position - now he's surrounded by nasty nasty people and a handful of over-promoted inexperienced acolytes. Suits him just fine. Prat.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:47 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

@ citizenJA

Hello. In answer to your question: no, I'm not experiencing any problems today. Although, since this is my first post of the day, perhaps I'm not yet in the best position to pontificate if your problem is related to things that you have posted. If you get my drift.

There's a drift?
Have I strayed away from the path?
Did you bring Welsh cakes this morning, PorFavor?

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:50 am

ephemerid wrote:...

Cameron has promoted men too in the same way - look at that eejit Hancock.
The man's a moron, and another one promoted way too early.

...

I agree with what you and others have said, but regarding Hancock I'd believe his first name was Hector if I didn't know otherwise. Did anyone else see him yesterday on... oh I've forgotten which programme it was.

Lonewolfie · Post by **Lonewolfie** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:56 am

utopiandreams wrote:
Lonewolfie wrote:
utopiandreams wrote:Morning all. Believe it or not I have very little to say about yesterday's budget. I may be drawn but needless to say am unimpressed.

One of the things I've found interesting on visits to this site has been the accounts of doorstep canvassing. RebaccaRiots (isn't it?) and ErnstRemarx' contributions too. To give it a bit of context the reason I ask is that a very long time ago I used to do a bit of doorstep canvassing myself. Some of you may consider it spivvery, especially as the markup of our product initially seemed excessive and hooked people into somewhat high small loan interest rates (credit broker's licence required with very little checks, back then anyway) plus we employed others on a commission only basis. On the latter score it was in nobody's interest if they couldn't hack it, so they either left after a couple of days or stayed on with a reasonably lucrative income.

There was however some moral purpose behind it, what we sold was first aid and fire safety equipment both directly to to shops, pubs, etc. and through weekly finance arrangements to what were largely council estates supplied with don't serve lists by local offices of the likes of Shopacheck and Practical Finance. As an aside often the most lucrative areas selling directly to business were in areas with a high prevalence of Asian shops. You'd go through your demonstration of fire equipment with almost nil response then you'd crack it. Having made a sale you'd often get asked to wait, a son or daughter of the proprietors would then nip out and before you knew it some of those you'd previously visited and others would be queuing up asking you to re(visit) their premises and sign them up (with no further sales pitches).

I digress, as far as householders were concerned you'd be surprised at how many there were with young children who didn't have adequate safeguards. The high markup wasn't excessive when you add in the packaging, travel and commission costs, not to mention the finance company markup and attrition rate, i.e number of returns. The commission paid had been covered by the deposit but tey couldn't be repackaged in case of contamination or even deliberate sabotage. True there was a greater markup for cash sales with no risk, but we also paid the canvasser substantially more.

Anyway after such a long preamble, my question. Do you have a scripted patter? We all get fed up of the memorable hooks or soundbites that are constantly repeated by politicians. It is understandable from a marketing point of view but overused when we hear them repeated time and time again. Such patter is usually carefully worded to elicit agreement at every stage. The trick is delivering it in as little a rehearsed manner as is possible. Yep, I've also sold Unit Trusts in between jobs and have been taught all the hard sell techniques in the book. Even that was a worthy product though, as is typical with finance groups, the commission was outlandish. So to repeat the question, is each conversation completely unique or do you have a rehearsed patter that you endeavour to return to? Just asking.

Edit: inserted safety into fire equipment plus a typo.
IMHO that is quite an odd question to be 'just asking' (and it is just my humble opinion - here in Hope, I'm not affiliated to political party....I do tend to get involved in a lot of conversations about politics however, and surprise a lot of people with my declaration of being an adherent of Marxism (the response of 'that doesn't apply to now' could be almost 'scripted', it is so prevalent) and then a strong supporter of Mr Ed - causes consternation with the 'they'reallthesame-ers' as well as Ukippers and Tories (no Lost Deposit seen around these parts for many a long year (well, 5 years, anyway)) and I say again, I am not now and have never been a member of the Labour Party and have never voted Labour in my life...which will change in May (and, to be fair, Mr Ed has had me very close to joining the Party))...FFS Wolfie - enough with the parentheses - get on with it you m*****t

The difference between learning (and repeating) a script to secure a sale and discussing political policy is interplanetary - that is to say, I see no connection or similarity, other than you're generally talking to people you've never spoken to before.

My political beliefs and passion for social justice are inate (I believe(TM)) so are spoken from the heart from a background of knowledge and understanding. To sell, using a script or not, is effectively being a mouthpiece for whoever/whatever you are selling for (unless you have invented the product yourself, in which case you would know and care enough about it to speak confidently without the need for a script) - scripts are used to ensure that there is no deviation from the accepted line, you are told the facts you need and no more...and you are not really expected to have any understanding of the product outside the 'script'. It is possible with a silver tongue and a personable nature (people buy people, not products) to be successful doorstep selling/cold calling, but as you point out, the attrition rate (of poor souls just looking for some way of getting access to some sort of cash) is huge, with very few actually making a living long term.

By way of explanation of my experience, I left HM Forces in the mid-80s, no qualifications but a lot of confidence, a quick(ish) mind and a somewhat silver tongue...so I made quite a comfortable living (for a couple of years, until the family arrived) selling financial products on commission only (which I tried to do without mis-selling, and trained my teams in the same manner - 'it is possible to make money in this business without lying' (ref: Pensions mis-selling, late '80s)). I've remained on the sales side of business, although what I do now is far more rewarding (supplying access products for disability inclusion) and most definitely has no script.

So...having waffled on and probably missed the point completely, I'll stop....but I'll press 'submit' anyway, in the hope that it might make a bit of sense

...and moreveaftingtinoon all...
Yeah don't worry you make perfect sense. As for just asking, the main reason being the manner in which politicians keep repeating their message and not that I once did door-to door canvassing as I'd put it, albeit that was one of the things that raised the question. Nevertheless I think there is some similarity between sales and putting a message across. I don't wish to get into any arguments so please appreciate that I mean this in the most kiindly way but also hate emoticons. I may be familiar with hard-sell techniques, which I can see from a country mile, but I absolutely hate them. Much better building relationships where all parties have mutual benefits.

Thank you - I was really trying to avoid sounding 'snarky' as that is most definitely not how it was meant (and I've also been trying to wean myself off the emoticons - I know they wind some people up, but sometimes it's difficult to write clearly without the possibility for misinterpretation)

I think it's the difference between someone inside the Westmonster Bubble and someone outside (on the street, so to speak) - mainstream politicians who find themselves on the national stage (through the MSM) have to be incredibly careful (especially if they're Labour - step forward Rachel Reeves) as they will be attacked and vilified for the smallest deviation from the accepted (Murkydochian) 'norm'. One of the reasons I'm so impressed by Mr Ed has been the unwavering commitment to groundwork inside constituencies to build support - party membership is up and activists are happy to canvass (or at least willing to canvass), in direct contrast to the other parties and their approach, which seems to be 'keep Uncle Rupert (and the other MSM billionaires) happy and it'll all be OK, cos they'll win it for us....they always do.'

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:57 am

citizenJA wrote:
Spacedone wrote:Here's an article in the Independent that's the equivalent of a toddler threatening to hold their breath until they get what they want. Nobody ever got what they wanted from a political party by making themselves an invisible non-voter.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 17203.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, George Osborne’s announcements haven’t done many favours for this nation’s young people. Don’t get me wrong: he’s taken tax returns digital and lowered the duty on a pint of beer. No complaints. But contrary to popular belief, not all young voters sit around playing on their smartphones slurping lager all day.

What about living wages and affordable rents? What about wealth inequality and unfair benefits caps? It’s no wonder one in eight twenty-somethings have already decided not to vote in May – myself included.
Yeah, Hero, not voting will sure show Osborne!
Well done you.
Kiss your enfranchisement & democracy goodbye, Fool.

4 reasons why I don't care about The Budget and won't be voting in May

Until a party promises to actually tackle the housing crisis and issues like youth unemployment, I'll be staying at home

Strange that, because I thought Labour did have policies to tackle the housing crisis and youth unemployment. I think he means "until a party that isn't Labour..."

There's a trend out there that means because of "Iraq" all the good things Labour could do are being passed over by younger voters. Shame they weren't around in the 80s as then they would know that "Iraq" wasn't something peculiar to Tony Blair. The UK & US had been meddling in the region for decades. One minute we were supporters of Saddam Hussein, funding his war against Iran, the next we were stealing his oil via our friends in Kuwait and calling him a murderer. We knew he had the capability to develop chemical weapons because we had supplied chemical & bio-weapon precursors to use against Iran. I approved of Blair's war in Iraq because I felt that we, in cahoots with the US, had created a monster, who had already committed genocide against the Kurds in the North, and was capable of a lot worse. We had a chance to take him out in the first gulf war, but didn't because Bush senior wanted his clinical "100 day war". We left the Kurds, who had risen up in expectation of US/UK support, in the lurch. When people talk about Blair's Iraq war they talk as if the first Gulf war never happened and as if nothing was achieved, as if the autonomy gained by the Kurds counts for nothing. The Iraq war clearly wasn't Labour's finest hour, but I find it hard to view it in the simplistic terms of "It was wrong" and "Labour should never be voted in again because the Iraq war was wrong". If we refused to vote ever again for parties that made mistakes, we'd quickly run out of parties to vote for. And that's what winds me up, because it's only Labour that isn't allowed to make mistakes. It's right-wing propaganda and I'm fed up of people who describe themselves as left-wing going around spouting this anti-Labour right-wing propaganda. My thoughts above about Iraq are my own and I'm not going to let pious people to tell me I was wrong to support the Iraq war anymore. It seemed like the right thing to do at the time, for the reasons I have given above. I was possibly wrong, but I have to say I don't regret that Saddam Hussein was overthrown and the Kurds in the region gained self-government. I just don't see why the Iraq war can be used as an excuse to boycott Labour and allow the Tories in again when a higher proportion of Tories voted for the Iraq war than Labour MPs, who were as divided as the constituents they represented.

Sorry for the rant. I think my exasperation with idealistic young people who won't vote Labour because, you know, "Iraq" has been simmering under the surface for a while. If you want to be that idealistic you're gonna have to go live on an island somewhere in the South Pacific and shun the modern world in its entirety because everything we do is tainted - from the mobile phone made in a sweatshop in China - to the solar panels made with metals mined by children.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 9:58 am

ephemerid wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
danesclose wrote:Morning all. The residents of West Wirral are holding a "sack Esther McVey" march today

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liv ... mp-8871329" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Halleluiah.

Hallelujah indeed.

Great quote from the hectoring harpy at the end -
"I am perfectly content for the Labour Party and their union paymasters to continue their personal attacks and smears against me"

We will, Fester, we will.

Politics really doesn't need self-promoting ambitious thick-as-a-brick nonentities like McVey.
Cameron has promoted women like her way beyond their capability just to look good - people like her and Morgan are still being controlled by IDS and Gove; it's all just window-dressing but the women themselves are too daft to see it.
Worst of all is the idiot Truss - putting her in charge at DEFRA when she has neither aptitude nor interest in the job just shows how much Cameron actually cares about farming/fishing etc. and the environment.

Not so long ago, ministers didn't get promoted to that level without a few years of solid service behind them.

Cameron has promoted men too in the same way - look at that eejit Hancock.
The man's a moron, and another one promoted way too early.

Cameron gets rid of people like Dominic Grieve who was the last reasonable Tory left in a senior position - now he's surrounded by nasty nasty people and a handful of over-promoted inexperienced acolytes. Suits him just fine. Prat.

That's Dave & his government in a nutshell, my friend. I posted something here last night trying to express this fundamental incompetence of Dave & his government. I'm angry their government receives props, a kind of legitimising support through translations provided from the BBC or the OBR. Current government are dumber than shit. And they're cruel too. It doesn't get worse than that. Forgive my profanity. I wasn't born into a family graced with wisdom, simplicity or tenderness. I continue to learn those languages I wasn't taught young.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:01 am

I'm trying to avoid clicking the 'thank you' button because the webpage takes too long to reload. I read your posts, friends, & thank you all for them.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:01 am

Completely irrelevant to anything but I'll tell you all anyway.

I was watching the weather forecast on the BBC and the bloke presenting it said (or so I thought): "Mr Fog will be coming in from . . . ".

After shouting at the TV about the infantilising of the audience, how dare they etc, etc it dawned on me after reading the captions on the weather map that it was his diction (or my hearing) that was at fault. He had, in fact, said "Mist and fog will be coming in from . . . ".

It does go to show, though, how much I've come to expect the media to treat us like toddlers.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:04 am

Lonewolfie wrote:...

One of the reasons I'm so impressed by Mr Ed has been the unwavering commitment to groundwork inside constituencies to build support - party membership is up and activists are happy to canvass (or at least willing to canvass), in direct contrast to the other parties and their approach, which seems to be 'keep Uncle Rupert (and the other MSM billionaires) happy and it'll all be OK, cos they'll win it for us....they always do.'

I too am impressed with Ed, Lonewolfie. He comes across as honest and with good intentions. I also noticed he has one of my traits, usually a bad thing, but in this case not so, and that is his addressing people by name. Having said that I don't particularly like it when he asks the audience to show approval for them. I'm not saying it's a bad thing but it just grates, on me anyway possibly because I'd hate such acknowledgement.

Edit: just wanted to add, for all this talk of how useless Ed is, don't others agree with me that he has certainly grown into the job?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:12 am

PorFavor wrote:Completely irrelevant to anything but I'll tell you all anyway.

I was watching the weather forecast on the BBC and the bloke presenting it said (or so I thought): "Mr Fog will be coming in from . . . ".

After shouting at the TV about the infantilising of the audience, how dare they etc, etc it dawned on me after reading the captions on the weather map that it was his diction (or my hearing) that was at fault. He had, in fact, said "Mist and fog will be coming in from . . . ".

It does go to show, though, how much I've come to expect the media to treat us like toddlers.

Not completely unrelated to my toxic smog post I would say

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:22 am

Yesterday a sunshine budget. Today toxic smog.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:26 am

All aboard the toxic smog roller coaster of bust and boom.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:29 am

PorFavor wrote:Completely irrelevant to anything but I'll tell you all anyway.

I was watching the weather forecast on the BBC and the bloke presenting it said (or so I thought): "Mr Fog will be coming in from . . . ".

After shouting at the TV about the infantilising of the audience, how dare they etc, etc it dawned on me after reading the captions on the weather map that it was his diction (or my hearing) that was at fault. He had, in fact, said "Mist and fog will be coming in from . . . ".

It does go to show, though, how much I've come to expect the media to treat us like toddlers.

Here in the Borders, Jack Frost has been visiting and the sun hasn't got its' hat on. Hip hip hip hoo-bleeding-ray.

This week, my bete-noire is the the expression prefacing many a jump-up hack's comments on pretty much anything, viz:
"What you have to understand is......."

I understand only too well that you, Mr/Ms.X, are in no position to tell me what I "have" to do, nor are you sufficiently understanding of anything yourself to patronise perfectly intelligent people in this egregious fashion.

Yes, Andrew "Brillo-Pad" Neil and your lemon-sucking token girlie, I am talking to you.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:37 am

After the discussion on Gidiot's appearance yesterday, Romanesque and possibly Caligula-like, I have an idea!

Cartoonist Sir Martin Rowson depicts Clegg as a continually diminishing Pinocchio puppet who has now been rendered so useless that the recent cartoons show him as a stick of wood propping something up somewhere in the fine detail of the work. Sometimes I can't find him.

I am thinking that perhaps Gidiot, whose avoirdupois is evaporating at a rate of knots, could be drawn as a body rapidly disintegrating and retreating into its' nose. I can't be the only person who has noticed that as he gets thinner his nose looks bigger.....

Of course there may be no room left inside his nose to accommodate his shrinking skeleton.
Full of snow, it is, allegedly.

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:43 am

Has anyone seen Jack Monroe's piece on the G today?

She is 27 - and talks about "campaigning" as though she'd been doing it for years on end.

I had some time for her until recently. No more.

She's taking some stick BTL.

mikems · Post by **mikems** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:45 am

Five enquiries into the bogus, media/racist inspired 'Trojan Horse' episode.

Zero enquiries into the media/racist fabrications that aimed to demonise Muslims via Trojan Horse.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:51 am

@Willow904
Excellent post! You've blown the cover off Labour-whatabout-Iraq.
I imagine others have done exposed the idiocy of shutting down debate from crass right-wingers shouting 'Labour Iraq 2008 omg2kitchens' but I don't recall a better account, Willow904, thank you.
We can quarrel or disagree about a single policy or set of like policies from the Labour party without having to annihilate or shun the party altogether.

I've just realised something having written that.

The current Labour party in the UK is the only fully functional political party with the capacity to govern the nation effectively. I'll get called tribal or worse having written that but I ask you all to ponder what I've written & help me out if that's not true. There's a lot of good work going on in smaller political parties all over the nation. Please let them grow their way into better representation of all the people. However, it takes time to build effective national governance experience.

The experience & wherewithal to represent the entire nation at this time is found in the Labour party. I'm not simply talking about the numbers of MPs to form a majority government. Labour currently has more than just an established name. The Labour party, like any organisation of human beings, has imperfections, bad mistakes committed historically still getting worked out. The Labour party led by Ed Miliband is too often grossly misrepresented over matters not standing up after perfunctory scrutiny. The Labour party has tightly pulled together over the course of the last five years in particular with a strong, realistic & professional leader using the talents from a large group of professional public servants. Complain about individuals, of course, please ponder while doing so the strengths those individuals do possess & bring to the party & their constituents.

The yourbritain website is shite, yes, but the policy documents found there are the result of years of research, meticulously brought together by Armitt & other commissioned policy researchers. Only a few could sit down with the huge list of Labour's current policy documents & call it a fine days' reading. The essential point I'm trying to make, however, is that those policy papers are for real. They're not brochures. The policy documents commissioned are fundamentally legislation ready.

If anyone has time to read my post, please re-read it prior to writing in response. It's not written well, I'd no intention of writing this prior to following my train of thought. Please know I'm casting no aspersions on the fine political parties doing good work in the UK. I see no reason why the best of those political parties can't combine with what is best in the Labour party. Five+ years from now the membership & political party strength of a different party may exceed Labour. Fine, excellent. I only ask it be a party fair, compassionate, professional & representing best those people least able to withstand decimated social services.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 10:59 am

ephemerid wrote:After the discussion on Gidiot's appearance yesterday, Romanesque and possibly Caligula-like, I have an idea!

Cartoonist Sir Martin Rowson depicts Clegg as a continually diminishing Pinocchio puppet who has now been rendered so useless that the recent cartoons show him as a stick of wood propping something up somewhere in the fine detail of the work. Sometimes I can't find him.

I am thinking that perhaps Gidiot, whose avoirdupois is evaporating at a rate of knots, could be drawn as a body rapidly disintegrating and retreating into its' nose. I can't be the only person who has noticed that as he gets thinner his nose looks bigger.....

Of course there may be no room left inside his nose to accommodate his shrinking skeleton.
Full of snow, it is, allegedly.

That's Mr Snow to you!

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 11:00 am

PorFavor wrote:
ephemerid wrote:After the discussion on Gidiot's appearance yesterday, Romanesque and possibly Caligula-like, I have an idea!

Cartoonist Sir Martin Rowson depicts Clegg as a continually diminishing Pinocchio puppet who has now been rendered so useless that the recent cartoons show him as a stick of wood propping something up somewhere in the fine detail of the work. Sometimes I can't find him.

I am thinking that perhaps Gidiot, whose avoirdupois is evaporating at a rate of knots, could be drawn as a body rapidly disintegrating and retreating into its' nose. I can't be the only person who has noticed that as he gets thinner his nose looks bigger.....

Of course there may be no room left inside his nose to accommodate his shrinking skeleton.
Full of snow, it is, allegedly.

That's Mr Snow to you!

I think Steve Bell is doing sterling work on Gideon's nose

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 19 Mar, 2015 11:05 am

mikems wrote:Five enquiries into the bogus, media/racist inspired 'Trojan Horse' episode.

Zero enquiries into the media/racist fabrications that aimed to demonise Muslims via Trojan Horse.

Didn't even get a national apology.
We've difficulty enough living our way into peaceful relationships with each other.
Current government have intentionally fomented antagonism to deflect schemes few would voluntarily agree to, like the selling off of council land to private individuals using the following -

The Academies (Land Transfer Schemes) Regulations 2012
Statutory Instruments
2012 No. 1829
Education, England
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1829/made" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

for example.