Saturday 21st & Sunday 22nd March 2015 -

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 6:30 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Besides, how bad would it have looked had he turned it down? I can imagine the SNP billboards, in particular, already
Being in that position in the first place is a tactical failure.

I don't think he should have agreed in any event. The story of these debates (and the campaign) is going to be all about Insurgents v Westminster. The minor parties get coverage in the campaign they don't get outside it. The last 5 years has been all about the SNP, Ukips, Greens, and Russell Brand. The long term decline of the big two "establishment" parties has accelerated alarmingly. (Labour polling 33-34 at this point would be disastrous, if the Tories were not also polling 33-34). It is a very dangerous thing to agree to. Not so much because of the SNP (there is nothing to be lost in going for broke against the Nats now) but because of Ukip (especially) and the Greens.

Miliband does have self confidence though, and that is a good trait to have. Bennett is useless (luckily), but Farage and Sturgeon are dangerous.

The last 5 years has been all about the SNP, Ukips, Greens, and Russell Brand.

Only if you're one of a few thousand independently wealthy Tory voters cooling your heels in stately piles in shires waiting for your agents to round up CAP payments for hard-working inheritors of land playing Angry Birds.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 6:32 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote: I have seen him in the flesh several times. Indeed, first probably before anyone else here: 25 years ago. The last occasions (in the flesh as it were) was at one of the two hustings I went to (Uni of Westminster?).

So, my view of him is not unformed by having seen him up close.
SpinningHugo -
3. Clegg gets to be placed on an equal footing with Cameron and Miliband in the last debate.
Oh hang on, isn't that dangerous? Miliband attempting to stave off anti-establishment renegade Tory-LibDems?

No, indeed the best format for Miliband would be one where he is with Clegg and Cameron (I know the last one is not a 'debate' really).

In that three way format Miliband gets to portray himself as the insurgent against the two establishment parties (in the way Clegg did in 2010, and the others will in the third 'challengers' debate).

Make up your mind, please, you're all over the place.

SpinningHugo · Post by **SpinningHugo** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 6:34 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
Willow904 wrote:There's a good article on deflation in the Indie by David Blanchflower. Deflation has already arrived in many parts of Europe and since the financial crash we've pretty much followed in the rest of Europe's footsteps, just several months behind. Pretending, as the Tory party is, that the UK is somehow unique is exasperating. Japan has been grappling with deflation for some time so we know it's a big problem and once in, it's hard to get out. This isn't a party political issue, it's bigger, more global than that. It would be nice to have a govt that will take this issue seriously instead of telling people deflation is a "good thing" because they're worried about being re-elected. It's not a "good thing" and it's something any govt of any ideological persuasion will struggle with. I guess I'm just saying I'd prefer to have a govt willing to treat us like grown-ups, instead of talking down to us like we're ignorant kids. Seeing newscasters on the tv trotting out the Coalition line that a little bit of deflation is fine, just to protect the Coalition saved the economy from the incompetent Labour party narrative is really exasperating. I just thank our lucky stars that Cameron and Osborne weren't in charge when the global financial crash hit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 78832.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No-one seems to take Osborne to task for failing to miss the inflation target of 2% – not 'some indeterminate figure below 2%' but 2% for a reason. Yet I seem to remember headlines of 'inflation target missed again' whenever inflation was above 2%.

Officially it isn't 'his' target but the Bank of England's. Not that they can do anything much to reach it when interest rates are at the zero level bound.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 6:39 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Current government are terrified the electorate will hold them responsible for five years of selling off assets not belonging to a political party but a nation, lying about VAT, lying about the NHS - using the Health & Social Care Act of 2012 to dismantle it.

Current government has used their five years in government to harass the disabled, those living, working, on the smallest incomes for the smallest wages & most insecure employment tenure. In short, the poorest have paid for tax breaks for corporations, fossil fuel companies, Tory donors, the financial sector & property portfolio investors benefiting from further housing inflation costs & no affordable home building.

Dave & Clegg have used their government to toss people out of their social housing by inventing a Spare Room Subsidy documented nowhere prior to the Tory-led coalition government but invented by them, known as the Bedroom Tax, in order to get more people into the private housing sector.

Honesty, integrity, decency, intelligence, compassion & sincerity combined with positive, strong, leadership demonstrated by Ed Miliband during the last five years will bring in a Labour government in May 2015.

Current government have no shame, no remorse & no credibility.

I couldn't have put it better, гражданкаJA. As for SH suggesting I was guilty of confirmation bias, albeit true in lambasting Tories, I pay no attention whatsoever to polls and neither am I a Labourite. I used to think that Clegg was honest but was fooled, albeit excepting his Orange Book credentials I think he was naive to join Cameron. I thoroughly disapproved but even so I did expect better. I should point out that I've not read any of the apologist articles in the G since his anti-establishment awakening. Anyway I've been observing Ed these last five years and forming my own opinion. I hope I shan't be let down again.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 6:53 pm

Labour brands Cameron a coward for refusing head-to-head TV debate
Proposed debate between prime minister and Ed Miliband, the Labour leader, is ditched in favour of answering questions from studio audience

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... lection-qa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Beautiful sound of birds now just out the window as I type. It's nearly dark & the night is soft.

A Labour Party spokesman accused Channel 4 and Sky of backing down on a pledge to “empty chair” Cameron. “After weeks of pressure from the Conservative party, Channel 4 and Sky have indicated to us that they are unwilling to stick to their commitment of 6 March to proceed with the head-to-head debate programme if David Cameron refused to take part,” he said.

“We have therefore, and with great reluctance, agreed to a change in the format of the programme on 30 April. David Cameron and Ed Miliband will now attend the same programme and take the same questions from the same audience. But due to the cowardice of David Cameron the two leaders will not be on stage at the same time to debate each other,” the spokesman added.

Don't expect honourable conduct from the Tory-led coalition government. Dave & his boys have spent the last five years demonstrating repeatedly they're remorseless bullies caring nothing for the country or people they're supposed to represent. I will never forget this time.

...a Tory source said: “If anything this is an improvement on the deal we were offered last week. The PM has always believed too many debates would suck the life out of the campaign.

The PM has always believed too many debates would suck the remaining life out of dying myths of Tories being returned to government in 2015. The worst Prime Minister of the UK - Dave Cameron.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 6:56 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:There is going to be no debate where Miliband appears without Cameron I see.

The five-way (Opposition Parties) debate includes Miliband but not Clegg. It's Clegg who wo'n't be appearing without Cameron but he's now complaining about being excluded.

Edit Sorry Hugo, I see you've spotted that!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:02 pm

utopiandreams wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Current government are terrified the electorate will hold them responsible for five years of selling off assets not belonging to a political party but a nation, lying about VAT, lying about the NHS - using the Health & Social Care Act of 2012 to dismantle it.

Current government has used their five years in government to harass the disabled, those living, working, on the smallest incomes for the smallest wages & most insecure employment tenure. In short, the poorest have paid for tax breaks for corporations, fossil fuel companies, Tory donors, the financial sector & property portfolio investors benefiting from further housing inflation costs & no affordable home building.

Dave & Clegg have used their government to toss people out of their social housing by inventing a Spare Room Subsidy documented nowhere prior to the Tory-led coalition government but invented by them, known as the Bedroom Tax, in order to get more people into the private housing sector.

Honesty, integrity, decency, intelligence, compassion & sincerity combined with positive, strong, leadership demonstrated by Ed Miliband during the last five years will bring in a Labour government in May 2015.

Current government have no shame, no remorse & no credibility.
I couldn't have put it better, гражданкаJA. As for SH suggesting I was guilty of confirmation bias, albeit true in lambasting Tories, I pay no attention whatsoever to polls and neither am I a Labourite. I used to think that Clegg was honest but was fooled, albeit excepting his Orange Book credentials I think he was naive to join Cameron. I thoroughly disapproved but even so I did expect better. I should point out that I've not read any of the apologist articles in the G since his anti-establishment awakening. Anyway I've been observing Ed these last five years and forming my own opinion. I hope I shan't be let down again.

Thoughtful post, my friend & I thank you. We're unable to see into the future. I've never blamed LibDem voters for their choice in 2010 - never. Because how could it be known what the LibDem MPs allowed the Tories to do? We couldn't know. Remember this - 2010 - an unpopular Labour PM having negotiated his way through saving an economic system we all have to use & still the Tories couldn't manage a majority government. I love the people for this. That's my personal bias - I'm grateful most people aren't Tories. We've both watched Ed Miliband over the last five years the best we can. Yes. We're not able to see into the future. But we've done the work of looking at the past & evaluating our opinions based upon that knowledge. We go into the future informed.

Namaste.
xx
cJA

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:12 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:There is going to be no debate where Miliband appears without Cameron I see.
The five-way (Opposition Parties) debate includes Miliband but not Clegg. It's Clegg who wo'n't be appearing without Cameron but he's now complaining about being excluded.

Do we have official confirmation of what's going on regarding the broadcasts of the Leaders Debates, please? I don't watch media very often & may not see these debates but I'm interested in the political unfolding of these plans. Dave's arrogance & disregard for rules he has to follow just like other people exasperate me.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:14 pm

Response from Ed Miliband to broadcasters’ announcement on TV debates

Responding to the broadcasters’ announcement on TV debates, Ed Miliband, Leader of the Labour Party said:

“David Cameron is now in the ridiculous position where he’ll go to the same studio as me, on the same night as me, with the same audience as me but he won’t debate me head to head as he’s running scared.

“I’m going to keep the offer of a head to head debate on the table right up to Election Day as it’s what the British people want and what they deserve.”

MARCH 21, 2015 (6:39 PM)

http://press.labour.org.uk/post/1142376 ... oadcasters

Thank you, Ed Miliband, for answering my question.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:16 pm

ephemerid wrote:Sorry for the double post - site playing up at my end....

I am 14 years clean and sober today!

Off to a meeting shortly, and a little celebration with some of my ex-alky girlfriends - this WILL involve cake.

Laters!

Congratulations – and have a lovely cake evening

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:30 pm

Interesting....

France decrees new rooftops must be covered in plants or solar panels
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... lar-panels" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:31 pm

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2 mins2 minutes ago
England only share Opinium/Observer poll
CON 37
LAB 33
LD 7
UKP 14
GRN 7
So 3.7% CON to LAB swing in England since GE10

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:31 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:
ephemerid wrote:Sorry for the double post - site playing up at my end....

I am 14 years clean and sober today!

Off to a meeting shortly, and a little celebration with some of my ex-alky girlfriends - this WILL involve cake.

Laters!
Congratulations – and have a lovely cake evening

..and from me

Great going - have a lovely cake day!

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:35 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote: Not taking part in the debates would have been a catastrophe, he needs the exposure & he need it now (partly his own fault if McBride is right in his theory) Don't worry about Farage and Sturgeon. Small fry.
I can't remember if you have seen him live Hugo? If not you need to - very, very impressive - and handsome
I have seen him in the flesh several times. Indeed, first probably before anyone else here: 25 years ago. The last occasions (in the flesh as it were) was at one of the two hustings I went to (Uni of Westminster?).

So, my view of him is not unformed by having seen him up close.

Genuine question asked without antagonism : What is it you don't like about him? Personality or politics ?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:45 pm

Labour’s commitment to disabled people
"Labour’s manifesto, which will be published in the next few weeks (including in accessible formats), will highlight our commitment to the equal participation and inclusion of disabled people across all aspects of society. Whether as friends, neighbours, work colleagues, employers, parents, students, advocates or representatives, disabled people make a huge contribution as valued members of our community, and Labour is determined to ensure disabled people can play their full part."

http://labourlist.org/2015/03/labours-c ... ed-people/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:47 pm

SpinningHugo wrote: I have seen him in the flesh several times. Indeed, first probably before anyone else here: 25 years ago. The last occasions (in the flesh as it were) was at one of the two hustings I went to (Uni of Westminster?).

So, my view of him is not unformed by having seen him up close.

You first saw him 25 years ago - when Ed was at university?

Did you go to Oxford too then?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:48 pm

Just a thought. The empty chair symbol is a good basis for a TV election ad...I can picture people off the street asking the chair questions and being answered by ---- .

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:49 pm

George Osborne Accepts LBC Debate Challenge
http://www.lbc.co.uk/george-osborne-liv ... 5pm-106815" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:52 pm

I'm really please that Ed Miliband has decided to take part in the second debate with the smaller parties, I've always thought that the real battle for Labour now is not to take voters off the Tories (I would have thought that the 30% who've stuck with them so far are unlikely to change their mind now, unless its to run off to the madlands of UKIP), but to convince their own voters not to desert them for UKIP or the SNP, while also trying to get some of the LibDems who've gone to the Greens onside as well.

I agree with Hugo to a certain degree, this election is all about the cynicism with the status quo that has led nearly one in three of the electorate to consider voting for an assortment of insurgent parties, but how do you deal with that? By engaging with those voters, by treating their complaints seriously and showing that you're listening. And by debating with the smaller parties and countering their argumements. Not by acting like you are somehow above the smaller parties and treating them with contempt, like the little ladies who should talk amongst themselves while the men have a serious discussion over whiskey in the other room (and the fact that three of the other parties are led by women would have made that a very obvious analogy).

I'm surprised that Nick Clegg hasn't pushed his way into that one as well though, he's got nothing to lose by doing it but by staying away he manages to make himself look both arrogant and irrelevant. I wonder if he might change his mind closer to the date.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:52 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2 mins2 minutes ago
England only share Opinium/Observer poll
CON 37
LAB 33
LD 7
UKP 14
GRN 7
So 3.7% CON to LAB swing in England since GE10

Pfft...!

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 7:56 pm

citizenJA wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:There is going to be no debate where Miliband appears without Cameron I see.
The five-way (Opposition Parties) debate includes Miliband but not Clegg. It's Clegg who wo'n't be appearing without Cameron but he's now complaining about being excluded.
Do we have official confirmation of what's going on regarding the broadcasts of the Leaders Debates, please? I don't watch media very often & may not see these debates but I'm interested in the political unfolding of these plans. Dave's arrogance & disregard for rules he has to follow just like other people exasperate me.

The schedule
26 March: Live question and answer programme on Channel 4 and Sky News featuring David Cameron and Ed Miliband, presented by Jeremy Paxman and Kay Burley
2 April: Debate with seven party leaders on ITV, moderated by Julie Etchingham
16 April: Debate between five opposition party leaders on the BBC, moderated by David Dimbleby
30 April: BBC Question Time programme with David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg, presented by David Dimbleby

from this BBC article

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:05 pm

Anyone think Leanne Wood fought a brilliant campaign to secure her position in these debates? Did she say "I'm not a candidate, we've got 3 MPs, and only stand in 40 out of 650 seats- and I'm mad as hell!"

Of course not. Cameron got her put in.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:06 pm

Anyone think that Morgan is actually any different to Gove? Her speech to the Association of School and College Leaders conference.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... -education" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Like you, I also share a vision for even greater collaboration between schools, and I hope that over the course of the next Parliament we see even greater school collaboration through academy chains and trusts. Because whether it’s Ark in Portsmouth, Perry Beeches in Birmingham or Harris in London, we know that working together through multi-academy trusts, schools can achieve truly extraordinary outcomes for young people.

Because they're the only ones capable of collaborating and that local authorities stop any of that?

Continuity Gove - only academies count.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:09 pm

SpinningHugo wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:
Willow904 wrote:There's a good article on deflation in the Indie by David Blanchflower. Deflation has already arrived in many parts of Europe and since the financial crash we've pretty much followed in the rest of Europe's footsteps, just several months behind. Pretending, as the Tory party is, that the UK is somehow unique is exasperating. Japan has been grappling with deflation for some time so we know it's a big problem and once in, it's hard to get out. This isn't a party political issue, it's bigger, more global than that. It would be nice to have a govt that will take this issue seriously instead of telling people deflation is a "good thing" because they're worried about being re-elected. It's not a "good thing" and it's something any govt of any ideological persuasion will struggle with. I guess I'm just saying I'd prefer to have a govt willing to treat us like grown-ups, instead of talking down to us like we're ignorant kids. Seeing newscasters on the tv trotting out the Coalition line that a little bit of deflation is fine, just to protect the Coalition saved the economy from the incompetent Labour party narrative is really exasperating. I just thank our lucky stars that Cameron and Osborne weren't in charge when the global financial crash hit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 78832.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No-one seems to take Osborne to task for failing to miss the inflation target of 2% – not 'some indeterminate figure below 2%' but 2% for a reason. Yet I seem to remember headlines of 'inflation target missed again' whenever inflation was above 2%.
Officially it isn't 'his' target but the Bank of England's. Not that they can do anything much to reach it when interest rates are at the zero level bound.

Negative interest rates?

Not that I even understand how they work.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:14 pm

And I love the way that she describes what's going on with assessment.

Take for instance the issue of assessment levels.

I remain convinced that school leaders are best placed to come up with assessment systems which work for them, and their students - and crucially are understandable for parents.

We know that assessment levels often weren’t trusted by secondary schools because they didn’t really reveal what children knew and forced them to move on to new material before they were ready, resulting in serious gaps in their knowledge.

So I’m pleased that we’re moving to a system that schools are free to develop their own systems of assessment of ‘real’ things - like how well a child can read and the specifics of what they know and can do in maths. Things that can inform better teaching and provide clearer, more incisive evidence of attainment and progression.

But I’m also aware that the transition hasn’t been easy. In fact, levels come up in almost every one of my question and answer sessions.

So to address those concerns we recently announced the launch of a commission, led by teachers, on assessment without levels to help schools learn from the best and provide that extra support. Because, and let me be crystal clear on this point, I want the changes we’ve made to be changes that allow teachers to do what they do best, ie teach.

1. So primary schools don't feature in this at all?
2. The only reason you need a commission is because the replacement for assessment levels (performance descriptors) got such a bad reaction from teachers.
3. Your new commission does not have a single classroom teacher. Three HTs but no classroom teacher.
4. If every school has their own assessment system, that makes comparability between schools impossible. Primary league tables would be dead.

She's an utter fool.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:14 pm

I'm currently watching Selling Off Britain by Will Hutton on Channel 4+1. Worth it, so far anyway, he seems to think as I (in this regard anyway I don't really know anything of him). I expect it'll be on 4oD.

Edit: a typo whilst here but really to add that SH was right about me after all. Call it a case of confirmation bias.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:15 pm

Tish wrote:I'm really please that Ed Miliband has decided to take part in the second debate with the smaller parties, I've always thought that the real battle for Labour now is not to take voters off the Tories (I would have thought that the 30% who've stuck with them so far are unlikely to change their mind now, unless its to run off to the madlands of UKIP), but to convince their own voters not to desert them for UKIP or the SNP, while also trying to get some of the LibDems who've gone to the Greens onside as well.

I agree with Hugo to a certain degree, this election is all about the cynicism with the status quo that has led nearly one in three of the electorate to consider voting for an assortment of insurgent parties, but how do you deal with that? By engaging with those voters, by treating their complaints seriously and showing that you're listening. And by debating with the smaller parties and countering their argumements. Not by acting like you are somehow above the smaller parties and treating them with contempt, like the little ladies who should talk amongst themselves while the men have a serious discussion over whiskey in the other room (and the fact that three of the other parties are led by women would have made that a very obvious analogy).

I'm surprised that Nick Clegg hasn't pushed his way into that one as well though, he's got nothing to lose by doing it but by staying away he manages to make himself look both arrogant and irrelevant. I wonder if he might change his mind closer to the date.

I'm not sure Clegg had a choice. The way the 2nd debate has been billed is as an opposition leaders debate, which of course Clegg isn't. Mind you, I'm not sure that's what Cameron & Clegg were originally proposing and expecting. Until it was confirmed today I thought the 2nd debate was just the 4 smaller parties and wasn't happy Labour weren't included. When they were I was pleasantly surprised and I wonder if Cameron & Clegg's anti-Ed plan has taken a turn they hadn't planned on. I'm sure they'll comfort themselves with SpinningHugo's arguments and who knows, Ed may really regret it, but I can't imagine Clegg's happy he's sacrificed a whole debate by rushing to agree to Cameron's secretly hatched format only for Ed to carry on and do it without either of them. I'm wondering whether that was supposed to happen or whether Labour actually asked to be included. Either way I'm looking forward to that 2nd debate, it could be really interesting all round.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:18 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Negative interest rates?

Not that I even understand how they work.

I think it's where if banks lodge money with the central bank i.e. Bank of England, then they have to pay interest to them rather than receive it.

I guess it forces banks to look elsewhere to lend money to get a return.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:19 pm

Willow904 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2 mins2 minutes ago
England only share Opinium/Observer poll
CON 37
LAB 33
LD 7
UKP 14
GRN 7
So 3.7% CON to LAB swing in England since GE10
Pfft...!

All the fieldwork was immediately after the Budget but before the details started to come out so it's just the usual Budget smoke and mirrors effect.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:25 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Anyone think that Morgan is actually any different to Gove? Her speech to the Association of School and College Leaders conference.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... -education" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Like you, I also share a vision for even greater collaboration between schools, and I hope that over the course of the next Parliament we see even greater school collaboration through academy chains and trusts. Because whether it’s Ark in Portsmouth, Perry Beeches in Birmingham or Harris in London, we know that working together through multi-academy trusts, schools can achieve truly extraordinary outcomes for young people.
Because they're the only ones capable of collaborating and that local authorities stop any of that?

Continuity Gove - only academies count.

Gove's still pulling the strings isn't he?

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:31 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Anyone think that Morgan is actually any different to Gove? Her speech to the Association of School and College Leaders conference.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... -education" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Like you, I also share a vision for even greater collaboration between schools, and I hope that over the course of the next Parliament we see even greater school collaboration through academy chains and trusts. Because whether it’s Ark in Portsmouth, Perry Beeches in Birmingham or Harris in London, we know that working together through multi-academy trusts, schools can achieve truly extraordinary outcomes for young people.
Because they're the only ones capable of collaborating and that local authorities stop any of that?

Continuity Gove - only academies count.
Gove's still pulling the strings isn't he?

Not even Gove, it's Nash and the chancer academy folk on the DfE board.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:33 pm

Spacedone wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 2 mins2 minutes ago
England only share Opinium/Observer poll
CON 37
LAB 33
LD 7
UKP 14
GRN 7
So 3.7% CON to LAB swing in England since GE10
Pfft...!
All the fieldwork was immediately after the Budget but before the details started to come out so it's just the usual Budget smoke and mirrors effect.

Smithson Tweeted that result around five separate times in quite a short time.

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:36 pm

RE. Selling off Britain. Half way through now and Will has gotten onto privatisation of public services.

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:40 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Tish wrote:I'm really please that Ed Miliband has decided to take part in the second debate with the smaller parties, I've always thought that the real battle for Labour now is not to take voters off the Tories (I would have thought that the 30% who've stuck with them so far are unlikely to change their mind now, unless its to run off to the madlands of UKIP), but to convince their own voters not to desert them for UKIP or the SNP, while also trying to get some of the LibDems who've gone to the Greens onside as well.

I agree with Hugo to a certain degree, this election is all about the cynicism with the status quo that has led nearly one in three of the electorate to consider voting for an assortment of insurgent parties, but how do you deal with that? By engaging with those voters, by treating their complaints seriously and showing that you're listening. And by debating with the smaller parties and countering their argumements. Not by acting like you are somehow above the smaller parties and treating them with contempt, like the little ladies who should talk amongst themselves while the men have a serious discussion over whiskey in the other room (and the fact that three of the other parties are led by women would have made that a very obvious analogy).

I'm surprised that Nick Clegg hasn't pushed his way into that one as well though, he's got nothing to lose by doing it but by staying away he manages to make himself look both arrogant and irrelevant. I wonder if he might change his mind closer to the date.
I'm not sure Clegg had a choice. The way the 2nd debate has been billed is as an opposition leaders debate, which of course Clegg isn't. Mind you, I'm not sure that's what Cameron & Clegg were originally proposing and expecting. Until it was confirmed today I thought the 2nd debate was just the 4 smaller parties and wasn't happy Labour weren't included. When they were I was pleasantly surprised and I wonder if Cameron & Clegg's anti-Ed plan has taken a turn they hadn't planned on. I'm sure they'll comfort themselves with SpinningHugo's arguments and who knows, Ed may really regret it, but I can't imagine Clegg's happy he's sacrificed a whole debate by rushing to agree to Cameron's secretly hatched format only for Ed to carry on and do it without either of them. I'm wondering whether that was supposed to happen or whether Labour actually asked to be included. Either way I'm looking forward to that 2nd debate, it could be really interesting all round.

I hadn't thought of that, that Clegg probably wasn't invited. But now I think about it, if he had been it would have been exactly the same as if Cameron had been empty chaired, and Cameron would probably have been able to insist on some kind of right to reply. By framing it as "the challengers debate" the broadcasters have got around that issue, and the only price we have to pay is one less chance to see Clegg simpering insincerely at members of the general public, a price I for one am perfectly willing to pay. He's been done up like a kipper, again.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:41 pm

So this Cameron and Miliband only non-debate, do we know who goes 'first'?

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:43 pm

StephenDolan wrote:So this Cameron and Miliband only non-debate, do we know who goes 'first'?

Does it matter? Cameron's input is probably already scripted.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:49 pm

diGriz wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:So this Cameron and Miliband only non-debate, do we know who goes 'first'?
Does it matter? Cameron's input is probably already scripted.

One of my concerns is Cameron going second and attempting to attack Miliband's statements without the 'adjudicator' stepping in.

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:51 pm

An interesting comment in a Telegraph article on the debate format.

It suggests Cameron vetoed Clegg in the challengers debate.

There is also a risk for Cameron. Farage will be able to play to the Tory gallery completely immune from Tory counter argument. He could easily grab a load of Tory-Kippers. He can attack Labour and Cameron from the right.

I would be more worried about the risks to Miliband, except his performance in debates and Q&A is always very impressive. The constrained format will play to his charisma and yes he is quite good looking. A big plus for Ed Miliband is that Bennett is utterly hopeless and Sturgeon is unlikely to have much of value to say to the vast majority of the audience.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:52 pm

David Cameron ‘blocked Nick Clegg from TV debate’
Sources say prime minister vetoed Lib Dem leader’s participation in third event because he did not want to be only absentee

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... l-election" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:53 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
diGriz wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:So this Cameron and Miliband only non-debate, do we know who goes 'first'?
Does it matter? Cameron's input is probably already scripted.
One of my concerns is Cameron going second and attempting to attack Miliband's statements without the 'adjudicator' stepping in.

I seem to recall that Labour are second. However, considering the bother and obstacles the tories have created on this I'm sure that they will want to go on last.

Cammers stuck in traffic on the night? Sweepstake on the excuse for his tardy arrival if he is due to go on first?

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:57 pm

Peter Wyatt retweeted
Peter ‏@PetersWooll 18 mins18 minutes ago
LAB lead with Survation/Mail on Sunday poll. Latest Post Budget Poll

CON 30%+1
LAB 34%+1
LD 10%=
UKIP 17%-2
SNP 4%=
GRE 3%+1

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 8:59 pm

Debates.
Nightmare.
Cameron is a coward as all bullies are and he is scared of Ed Miliband.
The End.

My lovely friends gave me a salted caramel cake.
And a medallion with my sobriety years on it.

I'm a happy, grateful,recovering alky today.

I'll be back in scrapping mode manana.

PS - yahyah (I think) you are right - 35 years for the new pension. That's what I meant to say!!!!!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 9:00 pm

ohsocynical wrote:
Spacedone wrote:
Willow904 wrote: Pfft...!
All the fieldwork was immediately after the Budget but before the details started to come out so it's just the usual Budget smoke and mirrors effect.

Smithson Tweeted that result around five separate times in quite a short time.

He's onto Survation now and it's the other way round, Labour 35 to Tory 31, England only. They're neck and neck, all margin of error. Guardian says "budget bounce", Mirror says "McVey's toast". The only conclusion I can come to is that the Mirror knows it's readers and the Guardian knows who writes the cheques.

My pfft is now ppfffftt...I'm beginning to accept no ones going to go into this election with any kind of a lead which will make for a nail-biting night and no real opportunity to come to terms with a Cameron largest vote if it ultimately goes that way. Maybe the debates will help bring the undecideds some clarity. It's my understanding the wavering group is pretty large and most of these polls are based on "certain to vote".

utopiandreams · Post by **utopiandreams** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 9:00 pm

Right I should have known more of Will Hutton, only just looked at the first paragraph on Wikipedia. Anyway I won't go into what he says in Selling off Britain, but can heartily recommend it. It just goes to show that this is another reason to get rid of the Tory party, not that he says anything of the like. You may draw your own conclusions.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 9:01 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:David Cameron ‘blocked Nick Clegg from TV debate’
Sources say prime minister vetoed Lib Dem leader’s participation in third event because he did not want to be only absentee

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... l-election" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I doubt I'll ever have to worry but please don't leave me in the same room alone with Dave or a member of his government.

edited to clarify - I'm afraid of them

Tish · Post by **Tish** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 9:04 pm

StephenDolan wrote:
diGriz wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:So this Cameron and Miliband only non-debate, do we know who goes 'first'?
Does it matter? Cameron's input is probably already scripted.
One of my concerns is Cameron going second and attempting to attack Miliband's statements without the 'adjudicator' stepping in.

Maybe they should make Cameron sit in a soundproof booth while Miliband does his bit, like they used to do on Mr & Mrs (it wouldn't make the whole think much more preposterous).

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 9:04 pm

utopiandreams wrote:Right I should have known more of Will Hutton, only just looked at the first paragraph on Wikipedia. Anyway I won't go into what he says in Selling off Britain, but can heartily recommend it. It just goes to show that this is another reason to get rid of the Tory party, not that he says anything of the like. You may draw your own conclusions.

I've got it recorded for later, Will Hutton is good, used to write for the G but not seen him recently (but don't go on the g much these days)

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 9:04 pm

Peter ‏@PetersWooll 8 mins8 minutes ago
@Jenny_Musings @CharlieWoof81 @Mancman10 @Survation ENGLAND only shares

CON 31
LAB 35
LD 10
UKIP 19

So a 7.7% CON to LAB swing since GE10

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 9:17 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:An interesting comment in a Telegraph article on the debate format.

It suggests Cameron vetoed Clegg in the challengers debate.

There is also a risk for Cameron. Farage will be able to play to the Tory gallery completely immune from Tory counter argument. He could easily grab a load of Tory-Kippers. He can attack Labour and Cameron from the right.

I would be more worried about the risks to Miliband, except his performance in debates and Q&A is always very impressive. The constrained format will play to his charisma and yes he is quite good looking. A big plus for Ed Miliband is that Bennett is utterly hopeless and Sturgeon is unlikely to have much of value to say to the vast majority of the audience.

The other funny (aside from Sturgeon not even standing and her party running in less than 10% of the seats) is that she's said English voters should vote Green.

So the smallest "English" party has 2 people in the debates who support it.

This sort of rubbish would never have made it past a proper commission. It's been agreed to because Craig Oliver's said it's OK.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Sat 21 Mar, 2015 9:22 pm

Gareth Snell retweeted

General Election ‏@UKELECTIONS2015 · 1m1 minute ago
Survation Polling

Aged 18-34 (55+)

LABOUR 51% (26%)
CONSERVATIVES 22% (39%)
UKIP 10% (18%)
GREEN 6% (1%)
LIBDEMS 4% (9%)
SNP 3% (5%)