Friday 12th September 2014

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Spacedone
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Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Spacedone »

Let's start the day with one of Iain Duncan Smith's massive lies being exposed yet again.

Benefits Street culture: study rubbishes 'joblessness as a lifestyle' claim
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... ness-claim" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The idea of a Benefits Street-style culture of joblessness, with generations of families never having worked, appears not to be backed by any evidence, academics have concluded, after spending eight months interviewing people in two of the country's most deprived neighbourhoods and failing to find any.
The report's authors said they sought out the most troubled and deprived families from two areas in Teesside and Glasgow, selected for their particularly high rates of unemployment. They did not find signs of "benefit ghettos", where joblessness was a lifestyle choice.
Spacedone
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Spacedone »

MPs claiming more expenses now than at height of 2009 scandal
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... under-fire" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Despite the furore of the expenses scandal just five years ago, MPs claimed £103m in 2013/14 – up from £98m the previous year and slightly more than they did at the high watermark of £102m set in 2008/09. Higher staffing spend is one of the reasons that MP expenses claims have started rising since they were brought down when a tougher system was introduced in the wake of the scandal.
Higher staffing cost eh? I guess all those husbands, wives and children employed as secretaries haven't had their wages frozen like other public sector employees.
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refitman
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by refitman »

Morning. Labour lead at 4 points on Yougov:

Latest YouGov / The Sun results 11th Sept -

Con 31%, (-1)
Lab 35%, (-3)
LD 7%, (+1)
UKIP 16%; (+2)

APP -25 (-1)
yahyah
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by yahyah »

Morning.

The good news is that Chris Huhne no longer has his column contract with the Guardian.

The bad news is a Guardian spokesperson has said "Chris Huhne is no longer on contract with the Guardian, but we certainly hope to see him writing occasional freelance pieces for us."

A complaint to the PCC about the Guardian publishing Huhne's appallingly self serving column about judge Constance Briscoe was rejected.

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/pcc-rejec ... hne-column" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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TheGrimSqueaker
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

Spacedone wrote:Let's start the day with one of Iain Duncan Smith's massive lies being exposed yet again.

Benefits Street culture: study rubbishes 'joblessness as a lifestyle' claim
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014 ... ness-claim" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The idea of a Benefits Street-style culture of joblessness, with generations of families never having worked, appears not to be backed by any evidence, academics have concluded, after spending eight months interviewing people in two of the country's most deprived neighbourhoods and failing to find any.
The report's authors said they sought out the most troubled and deprived families from two areas in Teesside and Glasgow, selected for their particularly high rates of unemployment. They did not find signs of "benefit ghettos", where joblessness was a lifestyle choice.
Comments BTL, predictably enough, dismiss this study. Who needs facts when you get by with belief and prejudice? :wall:
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
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ephemerid
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by ephemerid »

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
Who needs facts when you get by with belief and prejudice? :wall:
Some of us down there in the BTL murk have been fighting back - what bothers me most about many of the posts there and elsewhere is the level of ignorance about social security, and the hatred/resentment of some people who have no idea what it's like to be poor.

Overriding all these attitudes are two issues which really bother me - first is the regurgitation of DWP press releases and soundbites by the MSM (with little or no challenge) which emanate from "DWP spokesman" who is more likely than not to be a £90K PA SPAD recruited from IDS's very own personal thinktank, the Centre for Social Justice; second is the sheer mendacity itself, which is deliberately and cynically designed to give a misleading picture of what the figures actually say, thus fomenting more resentment and division.

The corker in the article you quote is the bit where the ubuquitous spokesman says that 3.9 Million families (not households) were languishing on benefits and nobody was working, but now all that's been sorted out and there are a tenth of that number today.
Egregious and specious bollocks - there were 5 million people on out-of-work benefits in 2010 and there are 5 million now.

Lone parents who did not have to search for work do now; carers ditto; sick and/or disabled people ditto; all set to get worse when UC comes in and those rules apply to people who work as well.....millions and millions of them.
And because they'll all be on the Work Programme they will not be unemployed any more and the whole sack of shite will be trumpeted as a resounding success.

I hope that when Labour get in to office - and they must or we are sunk - they go very noisily public about this constant lying about what really goes on in the world of benefits.

The ONS published some figures last year - if you discount people who cannot work due to disability or illness, who will always be around 2 million or more, you're left with people who claim JSA and people who are "economically inactive" for long periods.
The latter may well be people who cannot claim any benefits due to the new rules and who otherwise might.
The former - of 33 million working-age people in the UK, those claiming JSA for 10 years or more number.....930.

Meanwhile, the 5-year unemployment rate has more than doubled and the 3-year rate has increased more than tenfold.
I simply do not understand why Labour isn't screaming this from the rooftops.......
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
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TheGrimSqueaker
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

ephemerid wrote:
Some of us down there in the BTL murk have been fighting back - what bothers me most about many of the posts there and elsewhere is the level of ignorance about social security, and the hatred/resentment of some people who have no idea what it's like to be poor.
It is weird inversion of the politics of envy; there have been times of late where I wonder if I've stepped through the looking glass, I expect to see Alice and the Mad Hatter walk past any second.

I watched DIY SOS on the BBC last night. They were rebuilding the house of a 47 year old ex-electrician who suffered a major stroke 18 months ago; the theme throughout, from his family, from the Trade helping out was how sobering it was to see how quickly everything can fall apart - the hatred of those f***ing idiots BTL blinds them to the fact that it could happen to them one day, and their own gross stupidity will have allowed the Tories to take away the safety net on which we all rely.
ephemerid wrote: Overriding all these attitudes are two issues which really bother me - first is the regurgitation of DWP press releases and soundbites by the MSM (with little or no challenge) which emanate from "DWP spokesman" who is more likely than not to be a £90K PA SPAD recruited from IDS's very own personal thinktank, the Centre for Social Justice; second is the sheer mendacity itself, which is deliberately and cynically designed to give a misleading picture of what the figures actually say, thus fomenting more resentment and division.
I noted one of the first on the thread was everybody's favourite CCHQ troll Rusty. The depths to which this Government has stooped to control the agenda surpasses anything done by Campbell, and I thought he was appalling.
ephemerid wrote:Meanwhile, the 5-year unemployment rate has more than doubled and the 3-year rate has increased more than tenfold.
I simply do not understand why Labour isn't screaming this from the rooftops.......
Noises are being made, but not nearly enough. Mind you, the MSM tendency to bury everything doesn't help.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
ohsocynical
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

Nick Clegg is facing a rebellion over his Recall fudge denying voters the chance to sack disgraced MPs unless the Commons or the law agrees. Chief opponent Zac Goldsmith has dissected yesterday’s Bill:

http://order-order.com/2014/09/12/clegg ... rebellion/

Fun and games!
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
ohsocynical
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

Irene Short ‏@ipasho 1h
Osborne issuing#poison pill guidance 2ensure fraudulent profiteers like G4S&Serco paid millions if next govt end contracts#insults democracy


Haven't had time to check this out yet...But typical. Anything to make Labour look bad when they have to clean up the mess the Coalition will leave.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
StephenDolan
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by StephenDolan »

DFH on maaaaarvelous form today. One of these days I'm expecting him to announce it was all done tongue in cheek.
Tish
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Tish »

ohsocynical wrote:Irene Short ‏@ipasho 1h
Osborne issuing#poison pill guidance 2ensure fraudulent profiteers like G4S&Serco paid millions if next govt end contracts#insults democracy


Haven't had time to check this out yet...But typical. Anything to make Labour look bad when they have to clean up the mess the Coalition will leave.
There's some details on that here, focusing on the contracts in the probation service.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -serco-g4s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If they've done it there, I'd imagine they're doing it with all of the other privatisation contracts that they're currently steamrollering through in their dying days. Anything to stop Labour reversing their "reforms."
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TheGrimSqueaker
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

StephenDolan wrote:DFH on maaaaarvelous form today. One of these days I'm expecting him to announce it was all done tongue in cheek.
I've been suggesting for a while it is just a knock off of the old "Dear Bill Letters". Doesn't go down well BTL at the Telegraph for some reason. :dance:
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
ohsocynical
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

Claimants will be forced to visit job centres for 35 hours a week or face sanctions
Selected job seekers will be obliged to visit their Job Centre five days a week and spend 35 hours looking for work.


http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... -sanctions

Well, we knew this was going to come in.
Entertaining times ahead watching more George Smith created chaos. But not for the poor sods who have to participate.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
letsskiptotheleft
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by letsskiptotheleft »

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
StephenDolan wrote:DFH on maaaaarvelous form today. One of these days I'm expecting him to announce it was all done tongue in cheek.
I've been suggesting for a while it is just a knock off of the old "Dear Bill Letters". Doesn't go down well BTL at the Telegraph for some reason. :dance:
Says it all that I find the likes of Fraser Nelson and James Forsyth, known Tories, more reasonable than the supposedly ''Labour tribalist''

Doesn't he get bored churning out such crap?
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Tish »

StephenDolan wrote:DFH on maaaaarvelous form today. One of these days I'm expecting him to announce it was all done tongue in cheek.
About a week after Ed Milliband becomes Prime Minister probably, once he's stopped sitting in his bedroom crying.
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by letsskiptotheleft »

Guardian Poll out at 12.30, apparently.
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by letsskiptotheleft »

ICM poll has No at 51% and Yes at 49%. 17% still undecided.
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by HindleA »

Afternoon.

Proposed decimation of the Disabled Students Allowance has been delayed a year.Ministerial Statement .2,Student Support.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publi ... tatements/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

letsskiptotheleft wrote:ICM poll has No at 51% and Yes at 49%. 17% still undecided.
It's really too close to call isn't it?

Wow….
ohsocynical
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

Free school meals a hit despite lack of funds

Bracknell Forest Council was awarded £282,479 by the Government to carry out the scheme for Key Stage One pupils across the borough, plus an additional £58,011 for its voluntary aided schools.

However, Wokingham Borough Council had to fork out more than £300,000 to ensure its children received the free hot school meals.


http://www.bracknellnews.co.uk/news/bra ... -of-funds/
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

You'd think the funding formula was done on a beer mat or something.

Excellent election issue for Labour, I'd say.
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JackPranker
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by JackPranker »

DFH stating that the 17% undecideds are actually "no" voters. Every single on of them. Yup. FACT!

His mum must be so proud.
ohsocynical
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/ ... -on-track/

For Tubby and Roger:

Parents ‘confident’ new West Reading school is on track

This is a saga of epic proportions and doesn't look to end soon. And recruiting staff? Already? :?
There'll be tears before bedtime. :roll:
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by AngryAsWell »

Tish wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Irene Short ‏@ipasho 1h
Osborne issuing#poison pill guidance 2ensure fraudulent profiteers like G4S&Serco paid millions if next govt end contracts#insults democracy


Haven't had time to check this out yet...But typical. Anything to make Labour look bad when they have to clean up the mess the Coalition will leave.
There's some details on that here, focusing on the contracts in the probation service.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -serco-g4s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If they've done it there, I'd imagine they're doing it with all of the other privatisation contracts that they're currently steamrollering through in their dying days. Anything to stop Labour reversing their "reforms."
Hi Tish nice to see you here :)
ohsocynical
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

@Twitter:

Brian Wernham ‏@BrianUkulele 7m
Treasury throttles back DWP's Single Tier pension 'Beta' project - business case not good enough


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... sv/preview

At the bottom of the page on the above link it says:

Is there anything wrong with this page.

I'm strongly tempted to put:

Yes. It's my fucking money you'r wasting.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
ohsocynical
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

Brian Wernham ‏@BrianUkulele 12m
Treasury refuses IT spend for 3 DWP sites to Child Maintenance Group (CMG

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... sv/preview" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:ICM poll has No at 51% and Yes at 49%. 17% still undecided.
It's really too close to call isn't it?

Wow….
Though I expect more of the still "undecideds" to eventually vote no.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
55DegreesNorth
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by 55DegreesNorth »

Afternoon folks,
We had the road minister up here yesterday, promising the A1 Western bypass would be widened within a few months and also promising a decision on dualling the A1 North within months. Now Clegg is promising decentralisation and devolution for the north east. You would think there was some important deadline coming up...
http://www.thejournal.co.uk/north-east- ... =Untitled1
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

ohsocynical wrote:http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/ ... -on-track/

For Tubby and Roger:

Parents ‘confident’ new West Reading school is on track

This is a saga of epic proportions and doesn't look to end soon. And recruiting staff? Already? :?
There'll be tears before bedtime. :roll:
I wish they'd clarify stuff like this.
The bid has received cross-party support from the borough council and Reading West MP Alok Sharma, who is a patron of the new Wren School and gave evidence at the planning inquiry in September last year.
The Labour council had to support it because they were banned from opening new schools.
This deceitful argument is going to be aired all over the general election campaign.

Love the bit about just having a few things to sort out, like the site. But they're getting a headteacher- surely one of those could be recruited when they actually have a school.
Last edited by Tubby Isaacs on Fri 12 Sep, 2014 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AngryAsWell
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by AngryAsWell »

As Ukip bus in business tycoon John Bickley (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk ... hn-3068492" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) to Middleton & Heywood they have the total hypocrisy to say...
Campaign organiser Clive Page said: “If we can replicate our showing in the locals and build on it with a good campaign then we could well give Labour a shock.
“In the old days Labour MPs came from the mills, shop floors and shop stewards. Now they come from Islington, Hampstead, Oxford and Camrbdige. They are so out of touch it’s unbelievable.”
Ukip have announced John Bickley, who stood for the party in the Wythenshawe by-election earlier this year, as their candidate.
Labour candidates include
Richard Scorer, solicitor
Colin Lambert, Rochdale council leader.
Jacqui Beswick, former deputy leader Rochdale council
Liam O’Rourke, Beswick and North Heywood councillor
ohsocynical
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:http://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/ ... -on-track/

For Tubby and Roger:

Parents ‘confident’ new West Reading school is on track

This is a saga of epic proportions and doesn't look to end soon. And recruiting staff? Already? :?
There'll be tears before bedtime. :roll:
I wish they'd clarify stuff like this.
The bid has received cross-party support from the borough council and Reading West MP Alok Sharma, who is a patron of the new Wren School and gave evidence at the planning inquiry in September last year.
The Labour council had to support it because they were banned from opening new schools.
This deceitful argument is going to be aired all over the general election campaign.

Love the bit about just having a few things to sort out, like the site. But they're getting a headteacher- surely one of those could be recruited when they actually have a school.
It's absoluty nuts....Crazy. Reading Council Education department must be tearing their hair out. What with the one in Caversham and others around the town.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Eric_WLothian »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:ICM poll has No at 51% and Yes at 49%. 17% still undecided.
It's really too close to call isn't it?

Wow….
Though I expect more of the still "undecideds" to eventually vote no.
If anybody still thinks the nationalist fanatics are fit to govern an independent country, this should change their minds:
...Mr Sillars insisted that employers are “subverting Scotland’s democratic process” and vowed that oil giant BP would be nationalised in an independent Scotland.
Mr Sillars... said that under an independent Scotland, Standard Life would be required by new employment laws to give two years warning of any redundancies - and reveal to the trade unions its financial reasons for relocation to any country outside of Scotland.
(Jim Sillars is a former deputy leader of the SNP).

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3539754
letsskiptotheleft
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by letsskiptotheleft »

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/085b4586-d5fc ... z3D5WgkMFk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Essay from Simon Schama, on the ties that bind.
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

AngryAsWell wrote:As Ukip bus in business tycoon John Bickley (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk ... hn-3068492" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) to Middleton & Heywood they have the total hypocrisy to say...
Campaign organiser Clive Page said: “If we can replicate our showing in the locals and build on it with a good campaign then we could well give Labour a shock.
“In the old days Labour MPs came from the mills, shop floors and shop stewards. Now they come from Islington, Hampstead, Oxford and Camrbdige. They are so out of touch it’s unbelievable.”
Ukip have announced John Bickley, who stood for the party in the Wythenshawe by-election earlier this year, as their candidate.
Labour candidates include
Richard Scorer, solicitor
Colin Lambert, Rochdale council leader.
Jacqui Beswick, former deputy leader Rochdale council
Liam O’Rourke, Beswick and North Heywood councillor
Bet UKIP-man was a big fan of those shop steward MPs.
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Eric_WLothian wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: It's really too close to call isn't it?

Wow….
Though I expect more of the still "undecideds" to eventually vote no.
If anybody still thinks the nationalist fanatics are fit to govern an independent country, this should change their minds:
...Mr Sillars insisted that employers are “subverting Scotland’s democratic process” and vowed that oil giant BP would be nationalised in an independent Scotland.
Mr Sillars... said that under an independent Scotland, Standard Life would be required by new employment laws to give two years warning of any redundancies - and reveal to the trade unions its financial reasons for relocation to any country outside of Scotland.
(Jim Sillars is a former deputy leader of the SNP).

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3539754
Sillars was also a Labour leftist before. Would be a good Labour left MP (Campaign Group).

I don't think you can take him as typical of the YES campaign. Clearly there is a significant radical strand to it though.
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by letsskiptotheleft »

Eric_WLothian wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: It's really too close to call isn't it?

Wow….
Though I expect more of the still "undecideds" to eventually vote no.
If anybody still thinks the nationalist fanatics are fit to govern an independent country, this should change their minds:
...Mr Sillars insisted that employers are “subverting Scotland’s democratic process” and vowed that oil giant BP would be nationalised in an independent Scotland.
Mr Sillars... said that under an independent Scotland, Standard Life would be required by new employment laws to give two years warning of any redundancies - and reveal to the trade unions its financial reasons for relocation to any country outside of Scotland.
(Jim Sillars is a former deputy leader of the SNP).

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3539754
How do you reckon how the losing side will accept the result Eric, I'm afraid that there's bound to be a sizeable amount of acrimony?
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by TheGrimSqueaker »

letsskiptotheleft wrote:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/085b4586-d5fc ... z3D5WgkMFk

Essay from Simon Schama, on the ties that bind.
A very eloquent & thoughtful piece, Schama does know his stuff. Sadly it is doomed to fall on deaf ears. :(
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by letsskiptotheleft »

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
letsskiptotheleft wrote:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/085b4586-d5fc ... z3D5WgkMFk

Essay from Simon Schama, on the ties that bind.
A very eloquent & thoughtful piece, Schama does know his stuff. Sadly it is doomed to fall on deaf ears. :(
He's brilliant isn't he? His ''Power of Art'' progs are the kind you can watch again and again, best historian around.
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by letsskiptotheleft »

There's a certain poetry to this, there is, I just have to find it.

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2014/09/i ... selection/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by AngryAsWell »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:As Ukip bus in business tycoon John Bickley (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk ... hn-3068492" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) to Middleton & Heywood they have the total hypocrisy to say...
Campaign organiser Clive Page said: “If we can replicate our showing in the locals and build on it with a good campaign then we could well give Labour a shock.
“In the old days Labour MPs came from the mills, shop floors and shop stewards. Now they come from Islington, Hampstead, Oxford and Camrbdige. They are so out of touch it’s unbelievable.”
Ukip have announced John Bickley, who stood for the party in the Wythenshawe by-election earlier this year, as their candidate.
Labour candidates include
Richard Scorer, solicitor
Colin Lambert, Rochdale council leader.
Jacqui Beswick, former deputy leader Rochdale council
Liam O’Rourke, Beswick and North Heywood councillor
Bet UKIP-man was a big fan of those shop steward MPs.
I'll bet he was ;)
Seems MEN a bit out dated. Colin Lambert is no longer Council Leader.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ma ... r-27676633" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ohsocynical
Prime Minister
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by ohsocynical »

Slight change of topic but this did make me laugh and I wondered if the Tesco picker was on WorkFare...

@Twitter:

John Goodger ‏@John_Goodger 5h
genuine Tesco substitution: Whole Octopus as an alternative to Walnut Loaf. pic.twitter.com/ejvqQnpQPs
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
Eric_WLothian
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Eric_WLothian »

letsskiptotheleft wrote:
Eric_WLothian wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: Though I expect more of the still "undecideds" to eventually vote no.
If anybody still thinks the nationalist fanatics are fit to govern an independent country, this should change their minds:
...Mr Sillars insisted that employers are “subverting Scotland’s democratic process” and vowed that oil giant BP would be nationalised in an independent Scotland.
Mr Sillars... said that under an independent Scotland, Standard Life would be required by new employment laws to give two years warning of any redundancies - and reveal to the trade unions its financial reasons for relocation to any country outside of Scotland.
(Jim Sillars is a former deputy leader of the SNP).

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3539754
How do you reckon how the losing side will accept the result Eric, I'm afraid that there's bound to be a sizeable amount of acrimony?
It's the threat of a 'day of reckoning' that sounds quite chilling!

We can only hope that the result is at least decisive either way. If it's a narrow margin, there will almost certainly be allegations of vote-rigging, intimidation etc which would have to be investigated. (I'm sure that local authorities can't have verified every new voter registration in the last couple of weeks and the claimed 97% registration seems to me to be too high to be credible - but that's just my gut feeling).

If there is a narrow 'yes' vote, there will at least be a period post-referendum to get any challenges sorted out before independence legislation is passed in Westminster. (If there's a 'no' vote, there's unlimited time).

At the end of the day (Friday, to be precise), I doubt whether there will be riots in the streets but the number of 'breaches of the peace' may increase for a while.

The next Scottish election isn't until 2016, so it will be up to the SNP to initiate negotiations - I would expect these to be acrimonious in the extreme. rUK hold all the aces except Faslane (and NATO may well hold that ace), so Salmond will still be jumping up and down blaming Westminster for not giving him everything he wants. It will be interesting to hear what he has to say when his currency union isn't even on the table. :)

As a retired civil servant who on occasions had to negotiate with UK departments (eg DVLA mentioning no names), I can safely say that 18 months to negotiate a settlement is pushing his luck.
Last edited by Eric_WLothian on Fri 12 Sep, 2014 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Actually talking of Jim Sillars, he's called Brown a liar on the NHS in Scotland.

His letter to the Daily Record looks like bollocks to me.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note the lack of quote that the UK can do anything it likes with Scotland. Nor does moving the sea boundaries prove it can, any more than the UK army closing a base would. Some things are explicitly UK with devolution as everyone knows.

And this sea transfer, per the standing order, was before the Scottish Parliament opened.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999 ... ction/made" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But I think the YES side might have a point on TTIP. The EU has lots of regions in it- do they get their own vetoes?
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

If it's a narrow margin, there will almost certainly be allegations of vote-rigging, intimidation etc which would have to be investigated. (I'm sure that local authorities can't have verified every new voter registration in the last couple of weeks and the claimed 97% registration seems to me to be too high to be credible - but that's just my gut feeling).
Surely that' "vibrant democracy", unless many of the people are Asian, in which case it's "third world corruption"?
Eric_WLothian
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Eric_WLothian »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:Actually talking of Jim Sillars, he's called Brown a liar on the NHS in Scotland.

His letter to the Daily Record looks like bollocks to me.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note the lack of quote that the UK can do anything it likes with Scotland. Nor does moving the sea boundaries prove it can, any more than the UK army closing a base would. Some things are explicitly UK with devolution as everyone knows.

And this sea transfer, per the standing order, was before the Scottish Parliament opened.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999 ... ction/made" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But I think the YES side might have a point on TTIP. The EU has lots of regions in it- do they get their own vetoes?
The rebranding of the 'Scottish Parliament' and the 'Scottish Executive', as set up in the Scotland Act of 1998, into the 'Scottish Government' was just that - rebranding.
Strictly speaking, Holyrood is not the home of the Scottish Government - the latter sits in Westminster. Holyrood is a devolved parliament with authority over such matters as are authorised in Westminster - so technically, Jim Sillars could be correct. There is provision in the Scotland Act for the Queen/Parliament to vary the areas that are reserved or devolved so they could, in theory, reserve everything and declare MSPs redundant. (Having said that, I believe the Act of Union guarantees that education and law remain separate from England).
The sea boundaries are a constitutional (reserved) matter.
letsskiptotheleft
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by letsskiptotheleft »

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
If it's a narrow margin, there will almost certainly be allegations of vote-rigging, intimidation etc which would have to be investigated. (I'm sure that local authorities can't have verified every new voter registration in the last couple of weeks and the claimed 97% registration seems to me to be too high to be credible - but that's just my gut feeling).
Surely that' "vibrant democracy", unless many of the people are Asian, in which case it's "third world corruption"?
Could you imagine the furore if Luther and his pals organised marches to the polling booths?

If it happens that is, could be a load of bollocks flying about, something we must be careful off in the next week, moi especially.

I can get though the feelings that some are expressing, the ''they've trying to break my ******* country up'' hand on heart I would feel the same if PC were doing it here..
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Eric_WLothian wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:Actually talking of Jim Sillars, he's called Brown a liar on the NHS in Scotland.

His letter to the Daily Record looks like bollocks to me.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note the lack of quote that the UK can do anything it likes with Scotland. Nor does moving the sea boundaries prove it can, any more than the UK army closing a base would. Some things are explicitly UK with devolution as everyone knows.

And this sea transfer, per the standing order, was before the Scottish Parliament opened.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999 ... ction/made" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But I think the YES side might have a point on TTIP. The EU has lots of regions in it- do they get their own vetoes?
The rebranding of the 'Scottish Parliament' and the 'Scottish Executive', as set up in the Scotland Act of 1998, into the 'Scottish Government' was just that - rebranding.
Strictly speaking, Holyrood is not the home of the Scottish Government - the latter sits in Westminster. Holyrood is a devolved parliament with authority over such matters as are authorised in Westminster - so technically, Jim Sillars could be correct. There is provision in the Scotland Act for the Queen/Parliament to vary the areas that are reserved or devolved so they could, in theory, reserve everything and declare MSPs redundant. (Having said that, I believe the Act of Union guarantees that education and law remain separate from England).
The sea boundaries are a constitutional (reserved) matter.
Thanks. Terrible argument by Sillars though, isn't it?

A anti-Nat site I saw said that the boundaries were being drawn in line with UN convention. Is that right? And wouldn't it go in the same place with independence?
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

letsskiptotheleft wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
If it's a narrow margin, there will almost certainly be allegations of vote-rigging, intimidation etc which would have to be investigated. (I'm sure that local authorities can't have verified every new voter registration in the last couple of weeks and the claimed 97% registration seems to me to be too high to be credible - but that's just my gut feeling).
Surely that' "vibrant democracy", unless many of the people are Asian, in which case it's "third world corruption"?
Could you imagine the furore if Luther and his pals organised marches to the polling booths?

If it happens that is, could be a load of bollocks flying about, something we must be careful off in the next week, moi especially.

I can get though the feelings that some are expressing, the ''they've trying to break my ******* country up'' hand on heart I would feel the same if PC were doing it here..

I like that, Luther!
Tubby Isaacs
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by Tubby Isaacs »

Currently up against the Westminster takes our money and wastes it argument.

Sure, but it wastes a fair bit of it in Scotland. Not least Trident, which the YES side themselves think is a waste of money.
AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Friday 12th September 2014

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

KRM has tweeted again, claiming that the "salmon folk" (sic) private polling still shows a tiny "yes" lead.....
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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