Saturday 13th & Sunday 14th September 2014

[letsskiptotheleft]

Big business, neo-liberal, English nationalist establishment continue their attack on brave Scotland.

In the shape of, er, Paul Krugman:

Don't you mean the diminutive, bearded, softly spoken American, wow, London is really throwing the kitchen sink at Scotland.

Is Krugman small, or are you muddling him up with Robert Reich?

Anyway, stuck up East Coast Californian Liberal.

. To be honest I don't know, he's always sat down, just looks a short arse, like me?!

[ohsocynical]

To be truthful I'm sick of Scotland, sick of lying crooked MPs, and sick of sycophantic, biased presenters.
Disturbing to know there was an Orange Protestant Order march in Edinburgh today...Religious differences stirred up is all that's needed, but I shan't have much sympathy with any of them if it turns even nastier than it already is.

To think we were looking forward to another political occasion we could discuss in the interim before the GE.

Nationalism is never pleasant to watch as an observer.

Wise words.
The world is changing at an ever faster rate and we should accept it. We ought to be settling down with integration and minding our manners. Sad that we're not.
I am hoping a change of government can halt the nasty feelings that have been stirred up in the last few years.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Salmond talking about how his side are being positive.

Maybe the markets will give him a discount for that when he tries to borrow money.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Salmond talking about how his side are being positive.

Maybe the markets will give him a discount for that when he tries to borrow money.

To paraphrase Douglas Adams, this is obviously some strange use of the word "positive" that I wasn't previously aware of.

ohsocynical, odd that the Observer haven't opened up that article on their Opinium poll for comments, they are usually so keen to do so.

[ErnstRemarx]

This whole thing is really getting me down, watching people who should be cooperating against the common Tory foe tear great lumps out of each other; I've forsworn Twitter for the next week or so, to prevent me saying things I may later regret. Friendships are important, but I think a lot will be lost over these issues.

That's exactly how I feel. I posted two posts on here setting out my opinion on independence & since then I have been ignored on here, which upset me more than it probably should have.

I'm dreading a Yes vote but more than that I'm dreading the recriminations that will follow & the lost friendships built up over years. Whenever I think about it I get all emotional & tearful. I loathe the division of our country being enacted by that fat frog-faced fucker & his smarmy cohort !

@All

Thanks for the acknowledgment - it means a lot. I won't be posting much between now & next Friday in a desperate bid not to get involved in any kind of spat with a Yes campaigner

I think most posters on here are in line with your thinking PK.

Even Temulkar who is a Green, [& who some of us have had spats with over criticism of Labour]
is a supporter for keeping together. I mention that because some of the cybernats try and make out if you are a real socialist you should support Yes.

I've never liked nationalism, and am very mistrustful of its incarnations be they right wing or left.
Or faux left wing like the SNP, they'd have been tacking to the right if Scotland were that way inclined.

Can see why you feel emotional though. Have another hug

@pk - definitely not ignoring you! I simply don't get a chance to reply to everyone in the depth I'd like to.

Why should a 'real' socialist support nationalism? Socialism is the very anathema of nationalism, as it's an international movement and ideal.

And, let us never forget 'national socialist' ain't a great phrase to have applied to you.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Nationalism is sometimes justifiable as a lesser evil - for example the (Catholic) Irish had a good argument a century ago that they got a raw deal from the UK.

But who can seriously argue that Scotland and Scots have been oppressed - certainly within living memory??

I am surprised how vehement I have become about this, tbh. I have a large amount of ancestry from Scotland (as my surname rather suggests) and Welsh, Irish and Cornish blood as well as English. I feel BRITISH dammit, not English - and resent that there is even a chance of a smarmy demagogue delegitimising that

[letsskiptotheleft]

Nationalism is sometimes justifiable as a lesser evil - for example the (Catholic) Irish had a good argument a century ago that they got a raw deal from the UK.

But who can seriously argue that Scotland and Scots have been oppressed - certainly within living memory??

I am surprised how vehement I have become about this, tbh. I have a large amount of ancestry from Scotland (as my surname rather suggests) and Welsh, Irish and Cornish blood as well as English. I feel BRITISH dammit, not English - and resent that there is even a chance of a smarmy demagogue deligitimising that

I lost the plot with Salmond a while ago, no one is denying the Scots the right to determine their outcome, it's the language that get's my goat, the intimidation, the name calling, you're a traitor, not Scottish, a Tory, an establishment stooge, all for wanting to stay in the union, and as for comparing post independent Scotland to an apartheid free South Africa..

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Evening All!

I really wish I had time to respond individually to all the excellent posts here, but rest assured I love you all

Although having always thought of Por Favor as something approaching a Time Lord, I have had my illusions shattered this afternoon

[ErnstRemarx]

Nationalism is sometimes justifiable as a lesser evil - for example the (Catholic) Irish had a good argument a century ago that they got a raw deal from the UK.

But who can seriously argue that Scotland and Scots have been oppressed - certainly within living memory??

I am surprised how vehement I have become about this, tbh. I have a large amount of ancestry from Scotland (as my surname rather suggests) and Welsh, Irish and Cornish blood as well as English. I feel BRITISH dammit, not English - and resent that there is even a chance of a smarmy demagogue delegitimising that

Well, nobody can argue that, and Culloden is - or rather should be - a very distant folk memory and a detail in the story of a doomed, hopeless attempt to invade and overthow the British state of the time. But it is exactly that sort of detail that has become fully mythologised, and I would love to get into a discussion regarding 1745 with a Scots nationalist, if only to see how long the dialogue could be maintained before my correspondent(s) exploded into a paroxysm of accusations of me being a Tory stooge/placeman. I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't take more than about half a dozen exchanges.

There seems to be a deep well of burning resentment towards the English in some quarters that is quite ignorant of the truth of the variety of English thought and experience south of the border. It's partly myth, partly prejudice and all of it self-serving. I see little optimism in the yes camp, but I see plenty of romanticising of the cause yet precious little pragmatism.

[PorFavor]

Goodnight, everyone.

[ErnstRemarx]

Goodnight, everyone.

G'night, PF.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Goodnight, everyone.

See you yesterday

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 17s
ICM online poll for the S Telegraph has YES 8% ahead - the biggest seen from any pollster. Yesterday ICM phone poll had NO 2% ahead

[rebeccariots2]

I had toast for breakfast earlier this week, nothing unusual in that, have it every morning, with a cuppa and a few sly biscuits to finish off. On the toast I had ''McKay's Scottish Raspberry Jam'' putting it back in the fridge a thought came into my head, that thought, would I be so inclined to buy Scottish jam post independence, and the thing is I felt rotten thinking it, because it's wrong, weeks, months ago I wouldn't have entertained the idea.. Glad when it's all over now.

I read that and wondered if you had created a new kind of Tebbit question for our troubled, divided society, letsskip - the raspberry jam question. To be accompanied by a big raspberry sound effect, of course.

[rebeccariots2]

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 17s
ICM online poll for the S Telegraph has YES 8% ahead - the biggest seen from any pollster. Yesterday ICM phone poll had NO 2% ahead

Brace yourselves, everyone. A tidal surge of YESisms coming.

[HindleA]

Judicial Review into the BT set for the 19/20th November.Concerning domestic violence victims and sanctuary rooms.Background here:


http://www.hmbsolicitors.co.uk/news/cat ... et_id=1580" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rebeccariots2]

Judicial Review into the BT set for the 19/20th November.Concerning domestic violence victims and sanctuary rooms.Background here:


http://www.hmbsolicitors.co.uk/news/cat ... et_id=1580" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the info. I really find it difficult to understand why the Tories - esp David Cameron (but not IDS, gave up on any particle of human being present in him a long time ago) - continue to publicly battle over the bedroom tax - it is so toxic. The stories just highlight how unjust and punitive and ill thought out a policy it is every time there is a challenge.

I hope this gets maximum publicity. I hope it gives IDS and Cameron maximum embarrassment. I hope the right people win.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Judicial Review into the BT set for the 19/20th November.Concerning domestic violence victims and sanctuary rooms.Background here:


http://www.hmbsolicitors.co.uk/news/cat ... et_id=1580" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the info. I really find it difficult to understand why the Tories - esp David Cameron (but not IDS, gave up on any particle of human being present in him a long time ago) - continue to publicly battle over the bedroom tax - it is so toxic. The stories just highlight how unjust and punitive and ill thought out a policy it is every time there is a challenge.

I hope this gets maximum publicity. I hope it gives IDS and Cameron maximum embarrassment. I hope the right people win.

Yes very interesting thanks Adrian.

If ICM are right on the Indy Ref Rebecca there won't be a Cameron to be embarrassed!

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Eoin Clarke suggesting the ICM Yes lead is a false report.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 30s
Coming up at 8pm Opinium IndyRef poll for the Observer and at 9.30 pm Panelbase for the Sunday Times.

[refitman]

Judicial Review into the BT set for the 19/20th November.Concerning domestic violence victims and sanctuary rooms.Background here:


http://www.hmbsolicitors.co.uk/news/cat ... et_id=1580" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another example of how utterly useless the bedroom tax is. I hope this is another case the government lose.

For a minute I thought "BT" referred to Better Together and was mightily confused.

[rebeccariots2]

Judicial Review into the BT set for the 19/20th November.Concerning domestic violence victims and sanctuary rooms.Background here:


http://www.hmbsolicitors.co.uk/news/cat ... et_id=1580" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the info. I really find it difficult to understand why the Tories - esp David Cameron (but not IDS, gave up on any particle of human being present in him a long time ago) - continue to publicly battle over the bedroom tax - it is so toxic. The stories just highlight how unjust and punitive and ill thought out a policy it is every time there is a challenge.

I hope this gets maximum publicity. I hope it gives IDS and Cameron maximum embarrassment. I hope the right people win.

Yes very interesting thanks Adrian.

If ICM are right on the Indy Ref Rebecca there won't be a Cameron to be embarrassed!

I'm wondering now about how Cameron will behave if it's a YES outcome. Will he try to cling on - regardless of how big the push to go from his party is? I just can't see him behaving with much grace and decorum ... he's too thick skinned to understand how finito it will be ... I reckon they'll have to actually shove him over the cliff.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Eoin Clarke suggesting the ICM Yes lead is a false report.

Its not

[rebeccariots2]

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 30s
Coming up at 8pm Opinium IndyRef poll for the Observer and at 9.30 pm Panelbase for the Sunday Times.

Gawd - this is almost sick making - too many polls, too hard on the heels of each other .... just too too much.

[MsChin]

Judicial Review into the BT set for the 19/20th November.Concerning domestic violence victims and sanctuary rooms.Background here:


http://www.hmbsolicitors.co.uk/news/cat ... et_id=1580" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the info. I really find it difficult to understand why the Tories - esp David Cameron (but not IDS, gave up on any particle of human being present in him a long time ago) - continue to publicly battle over the bedroom tax - it is so toxic. The stories just highlight how unjust and punitive and ill thought out a policy it is every time there is a challenge.

I hope this gets maximum publicity. I hope it gives IDS and Cameron maximum embarrassment. I hope the right people win.

So do I. Speaking as someone who advocated and then made happen these vital protective measures, I can only say that there a very few and they protect people who are at the *very highest risk of serious harm* - how the f*ck anyone in govt can think it a good idea to penalise victims of the most serious DV with a tax on their very safety is beyond me.

edit - introduced these at a local level cos it was my job

[HindleA]

Judicial Review into the BT set for the 19/20th November.Concerning domestic violence victims and sanctuary rooms.Background here:


http://www.hmbsolicitors.co.uk/news/cat ... et_id=1580" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another example of how utterly useless the bedroom tax is. I hope this is another case the government lose.

For a minute I thought "BT" referred to Better Together and was mightily confused.

No British Telecom

[TechnicalEphemera]

Eoin Clarke suggesting the ICM Yes lead is a false report.

Its not

Very small sample size, online and conducted at the same time as another ICM poll that gave a very different result.

[Spacedone]

There seems to be a deep well of burning resentment towards the English in some quarters that is quite ignorant of the truth of the variety of English thought and experience south of the border. It's partly myth, partly prejudice and all of it self-serving. I see little optimism in the yes camp, but I see plenty of romanticising of the cause yet precious little pragmatism.

Exactly. They're trying to sell a romantic myth of a Scotland where everything is better, nothing goes against them and they all live happily ever after. Their campaign is essentially the political equivalent of the Scottish shortbread tin with the mythologising of a Scotland that never really existed; the noble and strong Scot in full tartan with bagpipes, standing in the heather on a hillside overlooking the still waters of a Loch. It's appealing but it's not real and some of the burning resentment comes from people reminding them that it's not real.

[Spacedone]

Eoin Clarke suggesting the ICM Yes lead is a false report.

Its not

Very small sample size, online and conducted at the same time as another ICM poll that gave a very different result.

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 1 min

Opinium IndyRef poll has NO with 6% lead. 53-47

If that ICM poll even exists, file it under "simply not credible". A 10 point shift in a single day from the previous ICM poll?

[StephenDolan]

Have noticed that you can see who has thanked you and in which post,have decided that if I don't otherwise acknowledge a post/poster(I always read but don't always know what to say and as I dip in and out ,sometimes at ridiculous o'clock I presume they are no longer about)I will thank them in lieu of a posted reply."I love you all,hic"

The problem with using the thanks button is it takes you off the page and shows a 'you have just thanked this post' dialogue box.

It works quicker than the old FTN site thanks button did, but it is one of the reasons I don't use the thanks function much, not because I am unappreciative of people or their posts.

On the mobile version there's no thank option, which is (probably) why this grumpy bugger hasn't thanked anyone

[TechnicalEphemera]

Its not

Very small sample size, online and conducted at the same time as another ICM poll that gave a very different result.

Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 1 min

Opinium IndyRef poll has NO with 6% lead. 53-47

If that ICM poll even exists, file it under "simply not credible". A 10 point shift in a single day from the previous ICM poll?

Sample size of 700, minimum size would be 1000 for a reasonably accurate poll.

[TechnicalEphemera]

From UK Polling report.

Note that the sample size for the poll was only 705, smaller than usual but not obscenely so (a sample size of 705 increases the margin of error to 3.7%, so less precise than 1000, but not by a vast amount). Update with the Opinium poll coming up very soon….

So previous poll had no at 2% lead. Something somewhere is broken.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

There seems to be a deep well of burning resentment towards the English in some quarters that is quite ignorant of the truth of the variety of English thought and experience south of the border. It's partly myth, partly prejudice and all of it self-serving. I see little optimism in the yes camp, but I see plenty of romanticising of the cause yet precious little pragmatism.

Exactly. They're trying to sell a romantic myth of a Scotland where everything is better, nothing goes against them and they all live happily ever after. Their campaign is essentially the political equivalent of the Scottish shortbread tin with the mythologising of a Scotland that never really existed; the noble and strong Scot in full tartan with bagpipes, standing in the heather on a hillside overlooking the still waters of a Loch. It's appealing but it's not real and some of the burning resentment comes from people reminding them that it's not real.

Apparently the reason it is right and proper for the Scots to have independence is that they have a unique & distinctive regional culture; when I pointed out the people of Yorkshire, the North East, Wales, Cornwall and other regions had that too I was told that was not the same thing - they didn't have their own legal system and their own church (although that one could be debated), so they didn't get the choice. Well, that has told the Catalans then, it is their own fault for not being unique enough!

[refitman]

Have noticed that you can see who has thanked you and in which post,have decided that if I don't otherwise acknowledge a post/poster(I always read but don't always know what to say and as I dip in and out ,sometimes at ridiculous o'clock I presume they are no longer about)I will thank them in lieu of a posted reply."I love you all,hic"

The problem with using the thanks button is it takes you off the page and shows a 'you have just thanked this post' dialogue box.

It works quicker than the old FTN site thanks button did, but it is one of the reasons I don't use the thanks function much, not because I am unappreciative of people or their posts.

On the mobile version there's no thank option, which is (probably) why this grumpy bugger hasn't thanked anyone

I can't find a way to add "Thanks" for the mobile theme . Will keep looking though.

[gilsey]

I have relations living in Scotland, this morning I met up with my neice and her husband in Darlington, they live in Edinburgh. I had a brief conversation with him about the indyref, which led on to another thought. I’ll call him Si, cos that’s his name.

Gilsey; You’ll vote no, won’t you.
Si: I haven’t decided.
Gilsey: You can’t vote for that toerag Alex Salmond.
Si: It wouldn’t be voting for him.
Gilsey: It would in the short term. And Cameron will only be there for the short term.
Si: And then it would be Boris Johnson.


So. Who can imagine Bojo as Leader of the Opposition?

[RogerOThornhill]

Oh hello.

I've returned from foreign parts. Anything happen while I was gone?

[ohsocynical]

Goodnight, everyone.

Night PF

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Oh hello.

I've returned from foreign parts. Anything happen while I was gone?

Welcome back Roger! How was Sicily? Any independence referenda there?

[RogerOThornhill]

Oh hello.

I've returned from foreign parts. Anything happen while I was gone?

Welcome back Roger! How was Sicily? Any independence referenda there?

No, none that I saw.

It was hot and very tiring. Some of the places I want to weren't exactly close to a train station.* Yesterdays trek was up a hill and a very long way.

* Bloody Greeks - you would have thought they'd build towns nearer to the rail lines...

[ohsocynical]

Jeremy Hunt accused of ‘dishonesty’ by doctor over London A&E closures

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/jeremy-h ... ign=buffer

[AngryAsWell]

Judicial Review into the BT set for the 19/20th November.Concerning domestic violence victims and sanctuary rooms.Background here:


http://www.hmbsolicitors.co.uk/news/cat ... et_id=1580" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the info. I really find it difficult to understand why the Tories - esp David Cameron (but not IDS, gave up on any particle of human being present in him a long time ago) - continue to publicly battle over the bedroom tax - it is so toxic. The stories just highlight how unjust and punitive and ill thought out a policy it is every time there is a challenge.

I hope this gets maximum publicity. I hope it gives IDS and Cameron maximum embarrassment. I hope the right people win.

Evening all - sorry for none reply's as well - group
The Bedroom Tax - why?
Well, since its introduction my thoughts on it are that it was designed, implemented and will continue to be used as the biggest vote gerrymandering since Shirley Porter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Porter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you are moved out of the area you have lived in all your life, into an area the other side of the country - often into B&B accommodation - what is the very last thing on your mind? First would be coping with daily life, trying to just find your way round your new situation, a doctor, dentist, maybe schooling finding out where the job centre is. Not to mention missing "home" friends and family, and coping with the depression all that would bring.
Do you have the energy to register to vote or even give a passing thought to do so?
No.
Apart from the immediate inhumanity of the BT, it is also one of the easiest ways to disenfranchise a very high number of people who may have been potential Labour voters.

[ohsocynical]

http://www.channel4.com/news/mental-hea ... ortage-foi

Mental health: too many patients, not enough beds

[rebeccariots2]

Simon King @TVsSimonKing · Sep 12
Who, in their right mind, races to destroy a wild flower meadow before legislation prevents them from doing so? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29037804" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

When I heard this reported ... my brain couldn't form a sensible response. Thank you Simon King ... you've said it. The farmers that did / do this sort of thing are thugs - I would say neanderthal thugs, except I think neanderthals probably had far less intent to, and did less, harm to the environment.

[ErnstRemarx]

Oh hello.

I've returned from foreign parts. Anything happen while I was gone?

Welcome back Roger! How was Sicily? Any independence referenda there?

No, none that I saw.

It was hot and very tiring. Some of the places I want to weren't exactly close to a train station.* Yesterdays trek was up a hill and a very long way.

* Bloody Greeks - you would have thought they'd build towns nearer to the rail lines...

Glad to see you back Roger, you've been missed. Plenty to catch up on in the last week, methinks.

[AnatolyKasparov]

Panelbase tonight has "no" narrowly ahead - but for that ICM bombshell, I would be feeling fairly confident now......

[MsChin]

Panelbase tonight has "no" narrowly ahead - but for that ICM bombshell, I would be feeling fairly confident now......

Have you seen the Observer editorial on the inde ref yet?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ndum-union

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Oh hello.

I've returned from foreign parts. Anything happen while I was gone?

Cameron is still useless, Johnson is still a dick, Salmond is still cosying up to Murdoch and Rusty is still getting his arse handed to him (and then deleting the evidence). No change really Rog. Hope you had a good trip and remembered to bring us back souvenirs.

[rebeccariots2]

Is this a joke?

Greg Stone ‏@gm_stone 47m
Lib Dems block Tory plan to privatise Channel 4 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... nel-4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They seem to want to privatise anything with half a pulse in the last desperate remaining months before the general election.

[ErnstRemarx]

From the Graun, a note from Buckhucklebuck to cbonn:

"But hey, thanks for bringing down the last properly left-wing government we had! Ushering in 18 years of Thatcher and Major, and for gifting us Tony "Educted at Fettes, Edinburgh" Blair. Liked Gordon, but hey, otherwise it was 26 years of SNP-induced misery."

Ouch.

[RogerOThornhill]

Sorry, this might have been posted before - I'll take a look through last week's threads tomorrow.

Exclusive: Inquiry call over Bradford academy chairman mystery

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/mai ... -1-6835361

MPS and a teaching union have called for an independent inquiry into why a scandal-hit Bradford free school had repeatedly described a leading figure in the Conservative Party as being its chairman of governors.

An Early Day motion published yesterday notes that in a document bidding to open another Kings Science Academy free school in Sheffield, Mr Lewis is referred to as chairman of governors or of the academy trust on ten separate occasions.

The Yorkshire Post can also reveal that a profile on the Conservative Party’s own website in November and December of 2012 and January of last year had also described Mr Lewis as the Kings Science Academy’s chair of governors but by May of last year this had been changed to say he was executive patron of the free school.

The Department for Education (DfE) has previously said it was told by the Kings Science Academy that Mr Lewis was the chairman of governors but discovered 12 months later that it had been misinformed. The DfE has also said it appears nobody was chairing the governing body in the school’s first year.

Good for the YP - they keep plugging away at this.

Will we get any answers at any point? I doubt it...bit embarrassing to have no-one actually in charge when the HT was running amok with the academy's petty cash box...