Saturday 13th & Sunday 14th September 2014

[AnatolyKasparov]

Alasdair Campbell:

Had my run ins with the BBC, but organised protests like this going on now is beyond Tebbit, and not far off Putin. Vote Yes for intimidation.

I fail to see whatever the result on Friday that things will go off peacefully.

I am not that pessimistic........yet. I think a lot depends on the immediate aftermath (not least on how Salmond and others react if it is indeed a "no")

The worst result by far - and IMO the one with the greatest potential for chaos - is a knife-edge "yes"

[letsskiptotheleft]

Incredibly, Toby has got another touchy Welsh article.

Apparently, they're touchy because... his last article showed it.

He seems a bit wounded doesn't he, protests, too much?

[letsskiptotheleft]

In other news it looks as though Sweden is pulling leftwards again, in part protesting against rampant free marketeering..

[55DegreesNorth]

Alasdair Campbell:

Had my run ins with the BBC, but organised protests like this going on now is beyond Tebbit, and not far off Putin. Vote Yes for intimidation.

I fail to see whatever the result on Friday that things will go off peacefully.

I have to agree. The divisions that have been created over this referendum could have very bitter consequences. I was living in a Scottish pit village in the early '80s, and was on the wrong end of some very ugly anti-English feeling, courtesy of Thatcher. That resentment smouldered on for years and some of the Yes campaigners have been stoking it back up.

[Tubby Isaacs]

In other news it looks as though Sweden is pulling leftwards again, in part protesting against rampant free marketeering..

Friend of mine once compared Swedish rightwing governments to having The Economist running things.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think Campbell's overdoing it there.

An angry crowd is at least more democratic than Craig Oliver putting the frightners on.

[TechnicalEphemera]

I think Campbell's overdoing it there.

An angry crowd is at least more democratic than Craig Oliver putting the frightners on.

I am not sure I agree. The mob of outraged government supporters demonstrating outside media companies is a clear sign of an emerging dictatorship

[Tubby Isaacs]

How else do they make their feelings known about media coverage?

If the BBC shits itself over that, it's a waste of time.

[yahyah]

I think Campbell's overdoing it there.

An angry crowd is at least more democratic than Craig Oliver putting the frightners on.

Maybe he is. We can wait and see how much of this sort of thing goes on and then revisit what he says.

As my Mum used to say 'there'll be tears before bedtime' and the hysteria seems to be rising.
I'm of the view there could be a nasty incident before long.

[yahyah]

I think Campbell's overdoing it there.

An angry crowd is at least more democratic than Craig Oliver putting the frightners on.

I am not sure I agree. The mob of outraged government supporters demonstrating outside media companies is a clear sign of an emerging dictatorship

That's not a mob of outraged government supporters TE.

It's a group of 'vibrantly democratic' cadres making a case for propaganda....sorry....media coverage the way they want it in the new Caledonian socialist utopia

<sigh> just think we have to go through all this rancour again in the run up to the general election in May.

[TechnicalEphemera]

I think Campbell's overdoing it there.

An angry crowd is at least more democratic than Craig Oliver putting the frightners on.

I am not sure I agree. The mob of outraged government supporters demonstrating outside media companies is a clear sign of an emerging dictatorship

That's not a mob of outraged government supporters TE.

It's a group of 'vibrantly democratic' cadres making a case for propaganda....sorry....media coverage the way they want it in the new Caledonian socialist utopia

<sigh> just think we have to go through all this rancour again in the run up to the general election in May.

Rupert Murdoch - head of propaganda for the New Caledonian Socialist Utopia.

Will the job come with a natty little uniform?

[Tubby Isaacs]

I think Campbell's overdoing it there.

An angry crowd is at least more democratic than Craig Oliver putting the frightners on.

I am not sure I agree. The mob of outraged government supporters demonstrating outside media companies is a clear sign of an emerging dictatorship

That's not a mob of outraged government supporters TE.

It's a group of 'vibrantly democratic' cadres making a case for propaganda....sorry....media coverage the way they want it in the new Caledonian socialist utopia

<sigh> just think we have to go through all this rancour again in the run up to the general election in May.

You may not agree with them, but people in the streets are a sign of a vibrant democracy. The anti-BBC feeling seems perfectly genuine.

And they'd be well within their rights to stand outside the Mail and Telegraph offices too, given the rubbish they've churned out.

[letsskiptotheleft]

I am not sure I agree. The mob of outraged government supporters demonstrating outside media companies is a clear sign of an emerging dictatorship

That's not a mob of outraged government supporters TE.

It's a group of 'vibrantly democratic' cadres making a case for propaganda....sorry....media coverage the way they want it in the new Caledonian socialist utopia

<sigh> just think we have to go through all this rancour again in the run up to the general election in May.

You may not agree with them, but people in the streets are a sign of a vibrant democracy. The anti-BBC feeling seems perfectly genuine.

And they'd be well within their rights to stand outside the Mail and Telegraph offices too, given the rubbish they've churned out.

Agree, it's the sight of government supporters protesting outside that is the cause for concern, government supporters, big difference there.

[yahyah]

I am not sure I agree. The mob of outraged government supporters demonstrating outside media companies is a clear sign of an emerging dictatorship

That's not a mob of outraged government supporters TE.

It's a group of 'vibrantly democratic' cadres making a case for propaganda....sorry....media coverage the way they want it in the new Caledonian socialist utopia

<sigh> just think we have to go through all this rancour again in the run up to the general election in May.

You may not agree with them, but people in the streets are a sign of a vibrant democracy. The anti-BBC feeling seems perfectly genuine.

And they'd be well within their rights to stand outside the Mail and Telegraph offices too, given the rubbish they've churned out.

The BBC can be infuriating at times, particularly their political reporting.
[& don't get me going on the awful music they feel they need to deafen us with in any documentary].


But this just smacks of people looking for a fight, looking for a reason to wail if their side doesn't win. Have they protested to the BBC about anti-Labour reports ?

It's just like the Lib Dem mania in early May 2010.
The shouts of 'new politics', 'Labour are finished'.
Look how many people feel like idiots having gone along with the Cleggmania mob then.

[yahyah]

But let's not fall out Tubby please.

Agree to differ ?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Labour governments have had very unfair coverage at times from the BBC. Not least at the last election where you barely got any sense that the Tories had supported Labour spending plans and even more City deregulation, and where spending cuts were made to seem like common sense rather than a bad idea most macroeconomists condemned. Why shouldn't some of us have protested against that?

Not that the SNP or YES side are likely to have any influence over the BBC Charter in 2016 anyway.

[Tubby Isaacs]

But let's not fall out Tubby please.

Agree to differ ?

Of course!

I think your example of the Clegg stuff is bang on, as it happens.

[yahyah]

Labour governments have had very unfair coverage at times from the BBC. Not least at the last election where you barely got any sense that the Tories had supported Labour spending plans and even more City deregulation, and where spending cuts were made to seem like common sense rather than a bad idea most macroeconomists condemned. Why shouldn't some of us have protested against that?

Not that the SNP or YES side are likely to have any influence over the BBC Charter in 2016 anyway.

It just isn't likely to go down well with the less outraged Scot though.

Mike Smithson has just tweeted:

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 3m
The #IndyRef was of seeking to make friends & influence people (via @chrisdeerin ) pic.twitter.com/7ECxsQomPs
What'll this do to turnout?

Not sure what he means by his last sentence.
That people will fear going to the polls because of seeing scenes of angry Yes-ers ?

[refitman]

I notice the Graun buried the "Labour lead 8 points in our own survey" article. Comments never opened and consigned to having to dig it out.

[yahyah]

I notice the Graun buried the "Labour lead 8 points in our own survey" article. Comments never opened and consigned to having to dig it out.

It's a shame. A lot of Nats are using the 'do you want Cameron or Boris as PM' and quoting the Tories as being ahead in the polls. Having that 8 point lead given wider coverage would be useful.

But of course, an 8 point Yes lead means they are going to win, an 8 point Labour one means the Tories will win.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

I notice the Graun buried the "Labour lead 8 points in our own survey" article. Comments never opened and consigned to having to dig it out.

So predictable. When the Labour lead is slender, or MOE gives a crossover, they splash that poll all over the place; but when it shows a healthy Labour lead/vote share they hide it away - I think this is the third or fourth one in a row they've tried to bury. Shame, because I would have liked to see NickyB explaining how that one doesn't affect his calculations and Notso telling us not to get excited over a single poll.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Labour governments have had very unfair coverage at times from the BBC. Not least at the last election where you barely got any sense that the Tories had supported Labour spending plans and even more City deregulation, and where spending cuts were made to seem like common sense rather than a bad idea most macroeconomists condemned. Why shouldn't some of us have protested against that?

Not that the SNP or YES side are likely to have any influence over the BBC Charter in 2016 anyway.

It just isn't likely to go down well with the less outraged Scot though.

Mike Smithson has just tweeted:

Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB · 3m
The #IndyRef was of seeking to make friends & influence people (via @chrisdeerin ) pic.twitter.com/7ECxsQomPs
What'll this do to turnout?

Not sure what he means by his last sentence.
That people will fear going to the polls because of seeing scenes of angry Yes-ers ?

That's a different point, how it will go down. Might or might not be wise, but that doesn't make it Putinesque.

I presume Smithson means people might be more motivated to vote against the YES crowd.

But it could go both ways. And Mike S could be genuinely undecided.

[AnatolyKasparov]

I notice the Graun buried the "Labour lead 8 points in our own survey" article. Comments never opened and consigned to having to dig it out.

It's a shame. A lot of Nats are using the 'do you want Cameron or Boris as PM' and quoting the Tories as being ahead in the polls. Having that 8 point lead given wider coverage would be useful.

But of course, an 8 point Yes lead means they are going to win, an 8 point Labour one means the Tories will win.

Based on what, exactly? Post-truth politics in action again.......

As far as today's events are concerned, it doesn't strike me as the sort of thing "yes" campaigners would do if they were genuinely confident of winning

[Tubby Isaacs]

Shortlist for Bootle published.

You'll be amazed to hear it doesn't seem to include Euan Blair, or Fraser Brown or some hypothetical Mandelson kid.

[letsskiptotheleft]

I notice the Graun buried the "Labour lead 8 points in our own survey" article. Comments never opened and consigned to having to dig it out.

It's a shame. A lot of Nats are using the 'do you want Cameron or Boris as PM' and quoting the Tories as being ahead in the polls. Having that 8 point lead given wider coverage would be useful.

But of course, an 8 point Yes lead means they are going to win, an 8 point Labour one means the Tories will win.

Based on what, exactly? Post-truth politics in action again.......

As far as today's events are concerned, it doesn't strike me as the sort of thing "yes" campaigners would do if they were genuinely confident of winning

Think it's safe to say there are a lot of known unknowns around at the moment?!

[Spacedone]

File this one under "No Sh*t Sherlock".

Ukip accused of politicising child sex abuse scandal by blaming Labour
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ame-labour" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ohsocynical]

Pass the sick bag not the pop corn: US verdict on DWP’s privatised sick note service

http://davidhencke.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... e-service/


Interesting, they sound like the typical American company. but not much about how they treat their customers...Anyone know?

[ohsocynical]

From Twitter:

Brett ‏@599bt 37m
Allegedly @Nigel_Farage is furious with @DavidCoburnUKip over the disastrous #Glasgow #UKIP rally which only attracted 12 supporters

Didn't hear much about this on the news did we. Or there'll be an article about it next week.

You see stuff on Twitter but the tabloids take ages to write it up.

[rebeccariots2]

You won't be surprised to know that BTL is already a tirade of scorn ...

Scottish independence: Broadcasting changes could damage democracy
Costs would rise for all the UK’s nations and Scots would lose universal access to TV and radio channels
http://www.theguardian.com/media/media- ... partiality

There seems to be anger that they might be expected to pay for or have reduced access to BBC output. That's a bit rich given that today they clearly think the Beeb is a Westminster mouthpiece and not worth listening to ...

Surely there would have to be some kind of payment to continue with the same access to BBC channels ... otherwise rUK license payers will be subsidising foreigners' entertainment and news .... the horror.

If a deal is done to apportion Beeb resources - post a YES vote - I do hope we get to say who Scotland is welcome to have in terms of presenters ... Laura Kuenssberg would be near the top of my list.

[rebeccariots2]

Pass the sick bag not the pop corn: US verdict on DWP’s privatised sick note service

http://davidhencke.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... e-service/


Interesting, they sound like the typical American company. but not much about how they treat their customers...Anyone know?

I thought I saw an earlier tweet from Hencke which said they have an appalling record of 'service' - including homophobia and racist practices. They sound so lovely. No wonder they were IDS and DWPs choice - or is this down to Hunt?

[AngryAsWell]

You won't be surprised to know that BTL is already a tirade of scorn ...

Scottish independence: Broadcasting changes could damage democracy
Costs would rise for all the UK’s nations and Scots would lose universal access to TV and radio channels
http://www.theguardian.com/media/media- ... partiality

There seems to be anger that they might be expected to pay for or have reduced access to BBC output. That's a bit rich given that today they clearly think the Beeb is a Westminster mouthpiece and not worth listening to ...

Surely there would have to be some kind of payment to continue with the same access to BBC channels ... otherwise rUK license payers will be subsidising foreigners' entertainment and news .... the horror.

If a deal is done to apportion Beeb resources - post a YES vote - I do hope we get to say who Scotland is welcome to have in terms of presenters ... Laura Kuenssberg would be near the top of my list.

Laura Kuenssberg - yes and yes again ...

[Tubby Isaacs]

One for Paul.

http://www.hebdenbridgetimes.co.uk/news ... n8.twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Fair play to Craig Whitaker for agreeing to NHS debates. Surely not a good issue for him?

[ohsocynical]

I'd have thought it was pretty obvious that if the vote is Yes, then that makes Scotland a foreign country, and the Beeb won't let anyone but UK license payers watch their programmes. A good example is BBC America where they won't show anything that involves UK licence payers money too deeply.

[refitman]

I'd have thought it was pretty obvious that if the vote is Yes, then that makes Scotland a foreign country, and the Beeb won't let anyone but UK license payers watch their programmes. A good example is BBC America where they won't show anything that involves UK licence payers money too deeply.

They were saying, on PM, that the only way they would be able to watch BBC programming would be via a subscription service (i.e.Sky).

[rebeccariots2]

You won't be surprised to know that BTL is already a tirade of scorn ...

Scottish independence: Broadcasting changes could damage democracy
Costs would rise for all the UK’s nations and Scots would lose universal access to TV and radio channels
http://www.theguardian.com/media/media- ... partiality

There seems to be anger that they might be expected to pay for or have reduced access to BBC output. That's a bit rich given that today they clearly think the Beeb is a Westminster mouthpiece and not worth listening to ...

Surely there would have to be some kind of payment to continue with the same access to BBC channels ... otherwise rUK license payers will be subsidising foreigners' entertainment and news .... the horror.

If a deal is done to apportion Beeb resources - post a YES vote - I do hope we get to say who Scotland is welcome to have in terms of presenters ... Laura Kuenssberg would be near the top of my list.

Laura Kuenssberg - yes and yes again ...

She gets to you as well then AAW. I don't know quite what it is that winds me up so much about her interviewing style - except that it's pants - completely pants. She has perfected the closed, antsy question that is designed to signal pique before the person in front of her has said a word. Opposite of a relaxed, open style a la Eddie Mair.

[Tubby Isaacs]

She was Business Correspondent on ITV, with no obvious experience.

[AngryAsWell]

You won't be surprised to know that BTL is already a tirade of scorn ...
There seems to be anger that they might be expected to pay for or have reduced access to BBC output. That's a bit rich given that today they clearly think the Beeb is a Westminster mouthpiece and not worth listening to ...

Surely there would have to be some kind of payment to continue with the same access to BBC channels ... otherwise rUK license payers will be subsidising foreigners' entertainment and news .... the horror.

If a deal is done to apportion Beeb resources - post a YES vote - I do hope we get to say who Scotland is welcome to have in terms of presenters ... Laura Kuenssberg would be near the top of my list.

Laura Kuenssberg - yes and yes again ...

She gets to you as well then AAW. I don't know quite what it is that winds me up so much about her interviewing style - except that it's pants - completely pants. She has perfected the closed, antsy question that is designed to signal pique before the person in front of her has said a word. Opposite of a relaxed, open style a la Eddie Mair.

Exactly
Mr AAW calls her The Wasp.

[rebeccariots2]

Exactly
Mr AAW calls her The Wasp.

That's perfect. Hats off to Mr AAW. She is The Wasp.

[letsskiptotheleft]

You won't be surprised to know that BTL is already a tirade of scorn ...
There seems to be anger that they might be expected to pay for or have reduced access to BBC output. That's a bit rich given that today they clearly think the Beeb is a Westminster mouthpiece and not worth listening to ...

Surely there would have to be some kind of payment to continue with the same access to BBC channels ... otherwise rUK license payers will be subsidising foreigners' entertainment and news .... the horror.

If a deal is done to apportion Beeb resources - post a YES vote - I do hope we get to say who Scotland is welcome to have in terms of presenters ... Laura Kuenssberg would be near the top of my list.

Laura Kuenssberg - yes and yes again ...

She gets to you as well then AAW. I don't know quite what it is that winds me up so much about her interviewing style - except that it's pants - completely pants. She has perfected the closed, antsy question that is designed to signal pique before the person in front of her has said a word. Opposite of a relaxed, open style a la Eddie Mair.

Her interviewing technique consists of trying to shout down the interviewee and being pig fucking ignorant, winds me up a treat. The Darling interview on Newsnight Thursday night being a prime example.

[AngryAsWell]

Exactly
Mr AAW calls her The Wasp.

That's perfect. Hats off to Mr AAW. She is The Wasp.

[AngryAsWell]

This is how I want to be when I'm 80

Woman, 80, punches robber in mouth in Whitstable

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-29197128" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ohsocynical]

I'd have thought it was pretty obvious that if the vote is Yes, then that makes Scotland a foreign country, and the Beeb won't let anyone but UK license payers watch their programmes. A good example is BBC America where they won't show anything that involves UK licence payers money too deeply.

They were saying, on PM, that the only way they would be able to watch BBC programming would be via a subscription service (i.e.Sky).

Yep. It's the same in the States.

I sort of have sympathy with those protesting about the BBC.
It's painfully obvious that they've been discriminatory for quite a while now and Robinson is one of the worst offenders. Many of us also know from experience that they brush off official complaints. We can't even with hold the licence money because we'd be hauled up in court.
It really doesn't leave much choice other than to march in protest and that gives people we disagree with the right to do the same

[Tubby Isaacs]

What OhSo said better than I did.

[TechnicalEphemera]

If Scotland becomes independent the BBC thing is obvious.

1. North of the Border the BBC will cease to exist.
2. The SBC will be created, it will be regulated according to Scottish legislation. If it is funded by a license fee it will be levied only on Scottish residents.
3. The SBC will have the broadcast assets of the BBC north of the border.
4. It will commission shows, which it will try to sell on the global market
5. It will spend money purchasing broadcast rights for content on the world market. This could include purchasing BBC shows like Dr Who.

So the SBC will be low rent primarily existing of local news and bought in drama.

[ohsocynical]

What OhSo said better than I did.

Thank you kind sir.

I always have a clear view of what I want to say in my head, but normally it doesn't transfer onto the page. Old age I guess....

[Eric_WLothian]

I'd have thought it was pretty obvious that if the vote is Yes, then that makes Scotland a foreign country, and the Beeb won't let anyone but UK license payers watch their programmes. A good example is BBC America where they won't show anything that involves UK licence payers money too deeply.

They were saying, on PM, that the only way they would be able to watch BBC programming would be via a subscription service (i.e.Sky).

SNP view number 1:

Question: Would the TV licence fee have to rise in an independent Scotland?
Answer: No. The existing licence fee would be inherited on independence and is sufficient to allow a high-quality SBS service on TV, radio and online.
In future, the funding of the Scottish Broadcasting Service (SBS) will be determined by the government of an independent Scotland in negotiation with the broadcaster.

http://www.scotreferendum.com/questions ... -scotland/

SNP view number 2:

Question: Will I still get access to BBC channels following independence?
Answer: Yes. Under our proposals, a joint venture agreement between the Scottish Broadcasting Service (SBS) and the BBC would see all current BBC services available in Scotland continue, in addition to the TV, radio and online services provided by the SBS.
If it became clear in future that Westminster did not share our commitment to publicly-funded public service broadcasting, the Scottish Government would establish a contractual arrangement with BBC Worldwide Ltd to secure continued availability of BBC services in Scotland.
BBC channels that are available in the UK currently are also already available through different live transmission agreements in the Republic of Ireland, the Netherlands, and Switzerland.

http://www.scotreferendum.com/questions ... ependence/

See - we'll get an SBC and BBC, all for the price of the BBC. (And if you believe that, I'll have a spare Forth Bridge for sale when the new one opens. Please email your bid to...)

[rearofthestore]

I'd have thought it was pretty obvious that if the vote is Yes, then that makes Scotland a foreign country, and the Beeb won't let anyone but UK license payers watch their programmes. A good example is BBC America where they won't show anything that involves UK licence payers money too deeply.

They were saying, on PM, that the only way they would be able to watch BBC programming would be via a subscription service (i.e.Sky).

I think it would be impossible to restrict the Scots from watching the BBC or C4 as both are available free to air on the Astra 2E & 2F satellites which are viewable without subscription throughout most of Europe, as far south as Munich with a smallish dish. We can pick up the BBC with a larger dish in Slovenia and also iplayer is easily accessible with a decent broadband connection.
To make BBC inaccessible to non licence fee holders in Scotland all signals would have to be encrypted for all and some sort of viewing card provided. This could actually mean the end of the license fee in the long run imo. Another consequence of a YES vote perhaps!

[ChrisDean]

During my winter break in Portugal at the beginning of the year there was consternation among British visitors and ex-pats because the BBC re-aligned their satellite beam resulting in loss of coverage to most of western Europe.

It was reported in the press that the reasons were that it was unfair on the British licence payer for these areas to be receiving BBC channels... and that the change would improve reception in parts of Scotland!

I wasn't too bothered as the only thing I would have "missed" was coverage of the Six Nations rugby matches but local bars and cafes did find a way to screen them and scores of English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish folk had a jolly good time together with lots of friendly, cheery banter.

[55DegreesNorth]

Pass the sick bag not the pop corn: US verdict on DWP’s privatised sick note service

http://davidhencke.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... e-service/


Interesting, they sound like the typical American company. but not much about how they treat their customers...Anyone know?

They do sound like shite employers, but I'd be interested on the service they provide. Particularly, how can someone in a call centre judge whether someone with sciatica, depression, ME etc is able to return to work? It sounds like complete bollocks.

[Tubby Isaacs]

If Scotland becomes independent the BBC thing is obvious.

1. North of the Border the BBC will cease to exist.
2. The SBC will be created, it will be regulated according to Scottish legislation. If it is funded by a license fee it will be levied only on Scottish residents.
3. The SBC will have the broadcast assets of the BBC north of the border.
4. It will commission shows, which it will try to sell on the global market
5. It will spend money purchasing broadcast rights for content on the world market. This could include purchasing BBC shows like Dr Who.

So the SBC will be low rent primarily existing of local news and bought in drama.

Not sure really. I saw an article on EU entry for Scotland that said the EU would just treat it as already in because that was simplest. I disagree with that because at least some countries wouldn't want it.

But with the BBC, I can't see any bar to Scotland just staying in the existing framework.

I wonder if it could spur more "regional" broadcasting in England.