Saturday 13th & Sunday 14th September 2014
Posted: Sat 13 Sep, 2014 8:25 am
Morning all.
Sillars should give people pause for thought.yahyah wrote:& morning all.
Sillars needs to be careful.
rUK shoppers and service users may decide to boycott Scottish products and companies in the event of a Yes vote. [What would life without authentic shortbread petticoat tails be like ?]
TechnicalEphemera wrote:Sillars should give people pause for thought.yahyah wrote:& morning all.
Sillars needs to be careful.
rUK shoppers and service users may decide to boycott Scottish products and companies in the event of a Yes vote. [What would life without authentic shortbread petticoat tails be like ?]
I see little in the Yes campaign that is tolerant or inclusive. A politician threatening state sanctioned revenge on his opponents must never be allowed near real power.
It is perfectly reasonable for businesses to oppose independence.
Morning all...PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning!
Just been catching up with last night's posts. Some really insightful stuff on the Indy Ref.
Well of course I can't vote, but after some ephemerid inspired flirtation with Yes in my imagined vote I'm now back in the No camp. I'm worried that ordinary Scots are being lured by a vision of a more just and democratic nation, when what they are actually being offered is the chance to build a new London in Edinburgh, retaining all the worst things about the UK.
I keep getting told by my friends that "nobbers" like Sillars don't represent the 'Yes' Campaign, that there is more to it, that it is about a better future for all, a vibrant democracy engaging with the people in a way we in England have forgotten (that bit is usually just after I've been told it isn't an anti-English campaign); but, like you, I don't get that.TechnicalEphemera wrote:I see little in the Yes campaign that is tolerant or inclusive.
All I can see is anger and in your face shouting.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:I keep getting told by my friends that "nobbers" like Sillars don't represent the 'Yes' Campaign, that there is more to it, that it is about a better future for all, a vibrant democracy engaging with the people in a way we in England have forgotten (that bit is usually just after I've been told it isn't an anti-English campaign); but, like you, I don't get that.TechnicalEphemera wrote:I see little in the Yes campaign that is tolerant or inclusive.
Maybe we aren't seeing the full story down here, but I'm not seeing this wellspring of positivity. People in the 'No' camp are being told they are "not proper Scots", mentioning Salmond and Murdoch in the same sentence is dismissed as an irrelevant smear, all parties South of the Border are labelled Tory ....... The levels of acrimony that will inevitably follow the result next week, whatever the result, is going to pollute life on these islands for years.
Absolutely. And either we're wrong, we'e not seeing the more positive side to the campaign, or they are wrong and are simply blinded to the realities of what is going on in their zeal to cut loose from the rest of the nation; most likely it is an element of both, but if the moderates think that the radicals will stop shouting after independence they are sadly mistaken, history has provided us with too many examples for me to believe that is possible.letsskiptotheleft wrote:All I can see is anger and in your face shouting.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:I keep getting told by my friends that "nobbers" like Sillars don't represent the 'Yes' Campaign, that there is more to it, that it is about a better future for all, a vibrant democracy engaging with the people in a way we in England have forgotten (that bit is usually just after I've been told it isn't an anti-English campaign); but, like you, I don't get that.TechnicalEphemera wrote:I see little in the Yes campaign that is tolerant or inclusive.
Maybe we aren't seeing the full story down here, but I'm not seeing this wellspring of positivity. People in the 'No' camp are being told they are "not proper Scots", mentioning Salmond and Murdoch in the same sentence is dismissed as an irrelevant smear, all parties South of the Border are labelled Tory ....... The levels of acrimony that will inevitably follow the result next week, whatever the result, is going to pollute life on these islands for years.
Didn't see the Brown / Galloway thing but there's certainly some truth in the perception of the Labour B team in Scotland. IMO there hasn't been a Labour leader in Scotland who has come anywhere near the late Donald Dewar. It was also careless to lose two Labour FMs (McLeish and McConnell) in petty 'scandals'. The Lab/Lib coalition, with Jim Wallace as deputy FM to all the Labour FMs seemed to me to work fine.letsskiptotheleft wrote:Brown and Galloway shared a platform last night, wouldn't have minded seeing that. Galloway said something along the lines of that he wouldn't mind Brown becoming Scotland's FM, Brown grinned and winked at him. For too long Labour have left the B Team alone in Scotland, that has to change, it has allowed Salmond and his party a free reign, Lamont isn't the answer, she's not totally shocking but not far off.
Lamont does her best, and she is an improvement on her predecessor - though she achieves that merely by having a pulse tbfletsskiptotheleft wrote:Brown and Galloway shared a platform last night, wouldn't have minded seeing that. Galloway said something along the lines of that he wouldn't mind Brown becoming Scotland's FM, Brown grinned and winked at him. For too long Labour have left the B Team alone in Scotland, that has to change, it has allowed Salmond and his party a free reign, Lamont isn't the answer, she's not totally shocking but not far off.
At least here in Wales we have someone with a bit of statue, Jones could hold his own in Westminster, no question about, you can't say that about too many of those who represent Labour in Scotland. And yes I know we have problems here, same as every region has.
And a good morning.
Do you believe that claim though ? I've seen posts by Nats claiming that female friends of theirs were 'apoplectic with rage' & so on but I think polling still shows women are more likely to vote No.AnatolyKasparov wrote: THAT utterly hideous broadcast that is believed, single-handedly, to have moved thousands - women, especially - into the yes camp)
A good argument, and it looks as though many Scots are equally leery of Alex Salmond and Jim Sillars. I suspect the latter's comments yesterday about a 'day of reckoning' will have both shored up the yes vote whilst increasing the number of no votes from the don't knows. It made splendid, firebrand, populist copy, but anyone who thinks about his comments for a moment may well discern a political death wish.Eric_WLothian wrote:Didn't see the Brown / Galloway thing but there's certainly some truth in the perception of the Labour B team in Scotland. IMO there hasn't been a Labour leader in Scotland who has come anywhere near the late Donald Dewar. It was also careless to lose two Labour FMs (McLeish and McConnell) in petty 'scandals'. The Lab/Lib coalition, with Jim Wallace as deputy FM to all the Labour FMs seemed to me to work fine.letsskiptotheleft wrote:Brown and Galloway shared a platform last night, wouldn't have minded seeing that. Galloway said something along the lines of that he wouldn't mind Brown becoming Scotland's FM, Brown grinned and winked at him. For too long Labour have left the B Team alone in Scotland, that has to change, it has allowed Salmond and his party a free reign, Lamont isn't the answer, she's not totally shocking but not far off.
Looking at the current candidates for running an indy Scotland - Lamont, Davidson and Salmond - is really quite depressing. The notion that Gordon Brown could stand is definitely good news. (There wouldn't be the UK problem of kicking out a sitting MSP either - the current incumbant could simply be put at the top of the list MSPs).
I'm never sure just how much of the indyRef politics is being reported outside Scotland, but Gordon Brown's comments are repeated here:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/t ... -1-3540532
The Graun's been pretty equivocal about how they report indyref news, and I agree that the current headline is as Scots would say, mince. I also wonder just how many don't knows are going to be no votes come Thursday. Excellent interventions by Gordon Brown, I have to say, and pro-indy supporters slagging him down as the man who 'bankrupted' the UK aren't, I suspect, doing themselves many favours, particularly as they seem unable to refute his main arguments.AnatolyKasparov wrote:I see btw that the big Graun headline this morning is "big guns fail to halt yes bandwagon"......
Couldn't it just as much be "yes campaign still failing to secure lead"?? After all, there were no shortage of people (both sides of the border) rushing to tell us that the mere sight of the "three stooges" heading to Scotland would lead to a stampede towards "yes"??
It seems there are major pro-union rallies planned next week across the UK - IMO, a good thing.
Reading BTL in most of the press articles, it's a fairly standard tactic for pro-independence supporters to ignore the arguments and attack the person putting them forward.ErnstRemarx wrote:The Graun's been pretty equivocal about how they report indyref news, and I agree that the current headline is as Scots would say, mince. I also wonder just how many don't knows are going to be no votes come Thursday. Excellent interventions by Gordon Brown, I have to say, and pro-indy supporters slagging him down as the man who 'bankrupted' the UK aren't, I suspect, doing themselves many favours, particularly as they seem unable to refute his main arguments.AnatolyKasparov wrote:I see btw that the big Graun headline this morning is "big guns fail to halt yes bandwagon"......
Couldn't it just as much be "yes campaign still failing to secure lead"?? After all, there were no shortage of people (both sides of the border) rushing to tell us that the mere sight of the "three stooges" heading to Scotland would lead to a stampede towards "yes"??
It seems there are major pro-union rallies planned next week across the UK - IMO, a good thing.
In response to lightcandle's question regarding lack.of consultation with readers prior to editorial on IndyRef,unlike GE and why the difference.ohsocynical wrote:Retweeted by Lightacandle
alan rusbridger @arusbridger 52m
@lightacandleOTM new editorial board. Consulted widely on paper and beyond. We'll poll reAders next week
????
. Yes, and the general consensus seems to be that the buffoon wouldn't have bothered if he didn't think he could usurp Dave, yet more bad news for Ed Miliband.ohsocynical wrote:Boris got it then....
Not to mention G Gallowayletsskiptotheleft wrote:Roll on Friday, so I can stop agreeing with right leaning journalists. Most unbecoming.
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:Not to mention G Gallowayletsskiptotheleft wrote:Roll on Friday, so I can stop agreeing with right leaning journalists. Most unbecoming.
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I think I posted a link to his article [yesterday] I was impressed.yahyah wrote:AnatolyKasparov wrote:Not to mention G Gallowayletsskiptotheleft wrote:Roll on Friday, so I can stop agreeing with right leaning journalists. Most unbecoming.
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It does seem odd when Galloway sounds like a voice of reason.
Heard him on Radio 4 the other day and he was calm and persuasive.
HindleA wrote:"Labour eight point lead"
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... erver-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We occasionally got them in the last place. Banned and deleted.pk1 wrote:We have a new spammer on the site
http://flythenest.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=2403#p2403" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have reported it to the mods but is this the price we have to pay for being ad-free ?
That's out early - not that I am complaining in this instanceHindleA wrote:"Labour eight point lead"
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... erver-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Never noticed them before but cheers for the answer - I had begun to think I was invisible since nobody ever responds to my posts any more. I have a shower every day & brush my teeth twice a day so I don't think my personal hygiene is the problem.....refitman wrote:We occasionally got them in the last place. Banned and deleted.pk1 wrote:We have a new spammer on the site
http://flythenest.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=2403#p2403" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have reported it to the mods but is this the price we have to pay for being ad-free ?
Good news!HindleA wrote:"Labour eight point lead"
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... erver-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What is it about journalists? Why do they feel the need to describe 37% as "nearly two in five" [polled who approve of Cameron]?AnatolyKasparov wrote:That's out early - not that I am complaining in this instanceHindleA wrote:"Labour eight point lead"
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... erver-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Labour finished by Rotherham then.HindleA wrote:"Labour eight point lead"
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... erver-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Not a lot, is the answer.citizenJA wrote:Good news!HindleA wrote:"Labour eight point lead"
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... erver-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What's going on with commentators insisting the Tories are going to be returned to form a government, please? What is this based upon?
I've no idea but it annoys the hell out me.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What is it about journalists? Why do they feel the need to describe 37% as "nearly two in five" [polled who approve of Cameron]?AnatolyKasparov wrote:That's out early - not that I am complaining in this instanceHindleA wrote:"Labour eight point lead"
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... erver-poll" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I've been reading too many below the line contributions on the Scottish referendum then. Not a damn thing done well for anyone but friends & family the Tories & with the YES vote in Scotland that's somehow that's bad news for Ed Miliband.Not a lot, is the answer.
Though it has been rather less evident in recent weeks - Carswell came as a cold bath for a few, I think.
Just to reassure you, pk1, that I'm sure you smell very sweet and body odour has nothing to do with response rates here. I think there's been a general drift to less 'conversations' here - other than those recently about independence for Scotland. Might be partly to do with some of the posters who used to do much more of the 'continuity' role - PfY, porfavor (myself sometimes) and you being about less of late. (I know there are others who do this too - sorry can't list all, brain is tired from being out in the fields.)There are newer posters coming in which is great - but I do miss a bit of the continuity stuff. And not forgetting that Tubby and Roger O'T can, and do, discuss the education foibles of this coalition shambles at length.pk1 wrote:Never noticed them before but cheers for the answer - I had begun to think I was invisible since nobody ever responds to my posts any more. I have a shower every day & brush my teeth twice a day so I don't think my personal hygiene is the problem.....refitman wrote:We occasionally got them in the last place. Banned and deleted.pk1 wrote:We have a new spammer on the site
http://flythenest.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=2403#p2403" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have reported it to the mods but is this the price we have to pay for being ad-free ?
Anybody would think he's feeling a bit left out, a bit needy - hasn't had enough attention of late.letsskiptotheleft wrote:And just in time, the old bastard shows up.
http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-09-1 ... and-votes/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What Murdoch thinks he can gain by ''touring'' Scotland is anyone's guess?
That's just about sums it up for me too.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Morning!
Just been catching up with last night's posts. Some really insightful stuff on the Indy Ref.
Well of course I can't vote, but after some ephemerid inspired flirtation with Yes in my imagined vote I'm now back in the No camp. I'm worried that ordinary Scots are being lured by a vision of a more just and democratic nation, when what they are actually being offered is the chance to build a new London in Edinburgh, retaining all the worst things about the UK.