Wednesday 8th April 2015

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 8:30 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -tax-haven" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Crosby's a non-dom, apparently, albeit one who'd probably be OK under Labour's plans.

diGriz · Post by **diGriz** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 8:39 pm

The vid above I thought deserved no introduction to spoil what it was. Apologies to anyone who may suffer weeks-long blackouts and thought that was real.

ErnstRemarx · Post by **ErnstRemarx** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 8:43 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Prime minister David Cameron meets six-year-old Lucy Howarth on the campaign trail at Sacred Heart primary school in Westhoughton, near Bolton, on Wednesday. Photograph: Stefan Rousseau/PA
Far be it from me to be trivial (and bear in mind that if I had any friends, some of them would almost certainly be southerners) but the little girl we're all so impressed by is a northerner.
[cue showing-off icon]

Even Boltonians are more discriminating than the voters down in Witney.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 8:43 pm

Goodnight, PF

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 8:50 pm

Fraser Nelson ‏@FraserNelson · 33 secs33 seconds ago
I gather that the next Scottish leaders debate, being broadcast at 9pm on BBC, will show Nicola Sturgeon in some difficulty.

Anyone know anything about this? Is it TV or radio? and has he got his date right?

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 8:52 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:Fraser Nelson ‏@FraserNelson · 33 secs33 seconds ago
I gather that the next Scottish leaders debate, being broadcast at 9pm on BBC, will show Nicola Sturgeon in some difficulty.

Anyone know anything about this? Is it TV or radio? and has he got his date right?

Found it
You can watch the programme live on Wednesday, 8 April, from 21:00 to 22:00 on this page, and on BBC One Scotland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32159729" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ephemerid · Post by **ephemerid** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 8:55 pm

Two women who had planned to have their babies at Stoke - after the maternity unit at Mid-Staffs was closed - delivered en route.

One in a lay-by somewhere, another while travelling on the M6.

This is the reason why 50,000 people in Stafford marched to keep those services open. This is what they and I and many others warned about.

The story is on the BBC website.

I am so angry I can hardly speak. So I'll go away now - but I will say this: I hold Julie Bailey and her CTNHS acolytes partially responsible for this.
If a mother or neonate dies, if someone doesn't get to A&E in time, I will point the finger at the people responsible for the closure of essential services at a good hospital.

Their scaremongering and lies, egged on by the machinations of Jeremy Hunt, have led to this - and I hope they learn to understand the meaning of Karma.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 8:58 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
AngryAsWell wrote:Fraser Nelson ‏@FraserNelson · 33 secs33 seconds ago
I gather that the next Scottish leaders debate, being broadcast at 9pm on BBC, will show Nicola Sturgeon in some difficulty.

Anyone know anything about this? Is it TV or radio? and has he got his date right?
Found it
You can watch the programme live on Wednesday, 8 April, from 21:00 to 22:00 on this page, and on BBC One Scotland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32159729" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any chance of any summary folks? Pretty please.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 8:58 pm

Martin Collinson ‏@docmartin2mc 2 mins2 minutes ago Newtonhill, Scotland
Back from #leadersdebate - not going to be good viewing for Nats. @NicolaSturgeon backed into corner & torn up on FFA, & boo'd on #indyref2

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 8:59 pm

The live stream has just started.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:01 pm

Just watched the Green party political broadcast. Not sure if they're trying to win an election or the Eurovision song contest.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:02 pm

6-way Scottish Leaders' Debate starting on BBC News and BBC Parliament, now (9pm)
Viewers in Scotland should be seeing it on one of the main BBC channels, too.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:03 pm

Nats on Twitter already crying foul that the debate is recorded rather than live. It's all been edited to make Sturgeon look bad apparently.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:05 pm

LadyCentauria wrote:6-way Scottish Leaders' Debate starting on BBC News and BBC Parliament, now (9pm)
Viewers in Scotland should be seeing it on one of the main BBC channels, too.

I gave the link above

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32159729" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:11 pm

I don't know if this was posted earlier but here is evidence of Labour's ground campaign from Ashcroft's latest poll. % of party contact.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:25 pm

Well it looks like that tweet about Sturgeon and FFA (full fiscal authority) was accurate, audience definitely siding with Murphy's arguments rather than Sturgeon's.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:26 pm

Just caught FFA section on news 24.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:29 pm

Forget the Green PEB, as eyewateringly awful as it is. Watch a classy one instead.

http://labourlist.org/2015/01/watch-lab ... d-britain/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:30 pm

Audience against fiscal autonomy for Scotland. Clapping, feet stamping.

Ukip getting slayed.

Greens sounding well

LibDems not actually giving figures just generalising.

Cons speaking well but lying.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:32 pm

Using the most recent polling data quoted & sourced below, what does this produce using Electoral Calculus' webpage also given below?
It's possible to include SNP's projected wins too.
SNP in Scotland are up what? 45%?
Labour in Scotland 29%?
Whatever - the results I got back were Labour having the most seats & the Tories going nowhere but down regardless.

Labour 35
Tory 33
LibDem 8
UKIP 14
Green 5

http://may2015.com/category/poll-of-polls/

Electoral Calculus
User-defined Poll

http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/userpoll.html

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:36 pm

Labour just accused SNP of making people on welfare use vouchers.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:36 pm

Murphy is slamming Sturgeon over the treatment of the vulnerable.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:36 pm

Ouch. Audience didn't like Sturgeon accusing Murphy of using poor people to make a political point when he was talking about how the SNP had made people on benefits use vouchers to pay for food instead of money. Audible groan.

AngryAsWell · Post by **AngryAsWell** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:37 pm

In news that is almost impossible to parody, the Sea Fishing (Enforcement and Miscellaneous Provisons) Order 2015 from 8 February removed secondary legislation which gave the Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authorities (IFCAs) the power to investigate offences.

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/s ... ly7KvVmm1Z" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:38 pm

The audience seems to be strongly anti- independence.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:39 pm

First time I've seen Murphy. I'm impressed.

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:41 pm

Moderator to Green representative: "Are you saying you wouldn't support a Government that supports capitalism?"

Green: "....................................................."

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:43 pm

ohsocynical wrote:First time I've seen Murphy. I'm impressed.

I can see why the nats hate him, he's exactly what is needed to win back Labour voters.

Chairman has been impressive too!

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:44 pm

ohsocynical wrote:First time I've seen Murphy. I'm impressed.

Heard he's been good, but he's far too much associated with Trident and Iraq and Westminster.

They needed a big hitter, and he seems to be doing that, but it still might not get them anywhere.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:45 pm

Sturgeon acting very slippery over another independence referendum in 2016.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:46 pm

Good interviewer.

LibDem might as well be Tory.

Cons reminding SNP that they promised it was a once in a life time thing for referendum or at least ten years, why have they gone back on it.
She's back tracking about what she said recently.

StephenDolan · Post by **StephenDolan** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:47 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:First time I've seen Murphy. I'm impressed.
Heard he's been good, but he's far too much associated with Trident and Iraq and Westminster.

They needed a big hitter, and he seems to be doing that, but it still might not get them anywhere.

He's making her look dodgy. He's won this by a mile.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:48 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Labour just accused SNP of making people on welfare use vouchers.

Not an accusation, a statement of fact, more than 80% of applicants to the Scottish Welfare Fund receive vouchers rather than cash; Murphy was right to attack her on that one although, needless to say, the loyal members of the Cult of 45% are crying foul.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:49 pm

Audience seems to be against Trident.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:49 pm

Tories getting chucked out & Labour gaining seats, Ashcroft, just say it without jerking around with charts & verbose narrations of 'party seat consolidation'.

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2015/04/ba ... tleground/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:52 pm

UKIP are just ridiculous...A laughing stock.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:53 pm

ohsocynical wrote:Audience seems to be against Trident.

That's the problem with Murphy. Not just that he supports it, but that he's associated with it.

What he needs to do is point out that the SNP would be spending about the same on Defence as UK does. NATO wants 2%.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 9:57 pm

UKIP brought in wait for it------------immigration. Audience boos.

TheGrimSqueaker · Post by **TheGrimSqueaker** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:02 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Audience seems to be against Trident.
That's the problem with Murphy. Not just that he supports it, but that he's associated with it.

What he needs to do is point out that the SNP would be spending about the same on Defence as UK does. NATO wants 2%.

Labour Party policy is that Trident will not be replaced on a like for like basis and, in fact, may not be replaced at all (other options, such as cruise missiles, the RAF etc could be more effective); but the SNP keep pushing the line that Labour are committed to full replacement. So what exactly is Murphy supporting?

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:02 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Audience seems to be against Trident.
That's the problem with Murphy. Not just that he supports it, but that he's associated with it.

What he needs to do is point out that the SNP would be spending about the same on Defence as UK does. NATO wants 2%.

The demolition of Sturgeon on FFA and the Neverendum was fairly comprehensive though. He is pretty effective, not sure it will make much odds in the end. On the other hand he only needs to shift the polls a bit to get a substantially better result than where he is now.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:03 pm

Jim Murphy : " Stop demonising people".

He got a big cheer for that one. It was directed at the Ukip guy, but it makes a pretty good slogan all by itself!

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:05 pm

ohsocynical wrote:UKIP brought in wait for it------------immigration. Audience boos.

Ah yes but it gave Sturgeon a chance to recover slightly by angrily talking about how disgraceful the Kipper was. It looked a bit forced to me but...

TechnicalEphemera · Post by **TechnicalEphemera** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:06 pm

TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:Audience seems to be against Trident.
That's the problem with Murphy. Not just that he supports it, but that he's associated with it.

What he needs to do is point out that the SNP would be spending about the same on Defence as UK does. NATO wants 2%.
Labour Party policy is that Trident will not be replaced on a like for like basis and, in fact, may not be replaced at all (other options, such as cruise missiles, the RAF etc could be more effective); but the SNP keep pushing the line that Labour are committed to full replacement. So what exactly is Murphy supporting?

I would have thought the best option would be land based missile silos in East Anglia. Cruise is useless as a delivery mechanism as is the RAF.

The big upside of Trident is that it is a second strike weapon, which is a much better approach than land based systems that are vulnerable to a surprise attack.

Tubby Isaacs · Post by **Tubby Isaacs** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:09 pm

TechnicalEphemera wrote:
TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
Tubby Isaacs wrote: That's the problem with Murphy. Not just that he supports it, but that he's associated with it.

What he needs to do is point out that the SNP would be spending about the same on Defence as UK does. NATO wants 2%.
Labour Party policy is that Trident will not be replaced on a like for like basis and, in fact, may not be replaced at all (other options, such as cruise missiles, the RAF etc could be more effective); but the SNP keep pushing the line that Labour are committed to full replacement. So what exactly is Murphy supporting?
I would have thought the best option would be land based missile silos in East Anglia. Cruise is useless as a delivery mechanism as is the RAF.

The big upside of Trident is that it is a second strike weapon, which is a much better approach than land based systems that are vulnerable to a surprise attack.

Would the East Anglia silos be independent? Hard to imagine Trident being fired with American opposition. France's is different because Mitterrand and others always distrusted America' commitment to actual warfare.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:09 pm

Btw if you're fed up with the Tory spin on the Labour non-dom policy all over BBC News I recommend you check out the news on ITV instead -they've been chalking it up to Labour all day!

Spacedone · Post by **Spacedone** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:16 pm

Willow904 wrote:Btw if you're fed up with the Tory spin on the Labour non-dom policy all over BBC News I recommend you check out the news on ITV instead -they've been chalking it up to Labour all day!

Paul Lewis tweeted earlier that election time was great because media had to carry rebuttals. Sadly the BBC don't seem to be carrying the rebuttal to the rebuttals.

LadyCentauria · Post by **LadyCentauria** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:17 pm

AngryAsWell wrote:
LadyCentauria wrote:6-way Scottish Leaders' Debate starting on BBC News and BBC Parliament, now (9pm)
Viewers in Scotland should be seeing it on one of the main BBC channels, too.
I gave the link above

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32159729" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry – I was way behind the times (only on page 2, I think) so hadn't seen your link at the time.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:20 pm

Lots of robust shouting between debaters.

So being a southerner, what did I learn.

Sturgeon is a very good debater.
I like Murphy. He's very po faced but I like the way he speaks.

A large part of the audience were against another referendum for at least ten years. I'd say Sturgeon wants one asap, but was forced to backtrack due to the hostile reception it got. Murphy reminded her that she and Salmond had promised not for ten years, and at one point had even said not for another generation. She was completely thrown by it. The audience stamped their feet in support of Murphy.
Their reaction surprised me because of all the noise Indy supporters have been making. it's been feeling as if the Scots had suddenly all changed their minds and wanted a yes vote.

Murphy got a warm reception on Labour's policies with a very good reaction when he spoke out against fiscal independence. The audience were certainly on his side, as were the other politicians except of course Sturgeon. Without a doubt that's going to be the stick she uses if Ed has to work with her. She blithley said with the five year fixed term you couldn't bring a government down. Which is half right but it's still possible. I'd say she's likely to be reckless if given the chance.

She also reckons a lot of Labour MPs would back the SNP in a vote for getting rid of Trident.

I think Ed needs to win outright because she's going to be a right pain

LibDem. Saying he'd carry on with the recipe...Hardly spoke but wasn't missed.

Conservative the normal pack of lies. Again a very good speaker but there was no connection between her and the audience.

Green was fairly good.

Post by **refitman** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:24 pm

Caption competition time: Farage in Grimsby:

Too slow, the photo wins itself.

ohsocynical · Post by **ohsocynical** » Wed 08 Apr, 2015 10:24 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:First time I've seen Murphy. I'm impressed.
Heard he's been good, but he's far too much associated with Trident and Iraq and Westminster.

They needed a big hitter, and he seems to be doing that, but it still might not get them anywhere.

But the audience didn't disagree with him when he said like it or not the bulk of the money to keep them going comes from London and the South East.